Will Big Brown 'Drive' to Meet Curlin ?

re: Will Big Brown 'Drive' to Meet Curlin ?

FormerFan — Fri, 30 May 2008 12:38:45 GMT

Curlin is definitely the better horse.. Think about this. He only lost the belmont by a head. Afterward, Rags to Riches got worse and Curlin got better. Rags was never the same after that effort. Any horse that gets into a head to head battle with Curlin, trust me, will never be the same. BUT it seams to me that these battles have made him a better race horse, whereas it ruined Rag to Riches. She's pregnant with baby now, and Curlin, well, he's preparing to make a start somewhere, after his glorious win in Dubai, which we all know Big Brown won't be doing because he'll be in the breeding shed where the big bucks are. So, even if this horse is a really great horse nobody will ever know because 6 lifetime starts accounts for NOTHING.. If he wins the triple crown he would then be the 5th best of the last 5 triple crown winners. Now that says alot. Citation, Secretariat, Seattle Slew, Affirmed, Big Brown, NOW, out of those 5 who do you think ranks 5th best, Big Brown. There's no way he's better than the other 4, NO WAY, he's not better than Citation, if Big Brown made even half the lifetime starts Citation made there would be nothing left of him to breed later. He also isn't facing the competition that Citation faced throughout his career. Also Citation is a legend and don't anyone ever forget it. Big Brown will never be a legend, he will be forgotten. We know he's not better than Secretariat,no horse will ever be, or Seattle Slew, and he's definitely not better than Affirmed, so that is where he will stand, 5th best of the last 5 triple crown winners. As as matter of fact, he also would never be able to duplicate the records and efforts of the last 4 triple crown winners. I'll go a step further, he's definitely not better than Spectacular Bid, the greatest horse to never win the triple crown. His competition is lacking, and he doesn't even hold any track or stakes records, so he'll be remembered for the best of the 2008 bunch, that's about it. I can not wait for him to meet Curlin.

re: Will Big Brown 'Drive' to Meet Curlin ?

Julie L. — Thu, 29 May 2008 17:15:35 GMT

To Monica V thank you for your comment, I reread what I posted I feel that maybe I let my anger at those who jump from one popular horse to the next get the better of me but hopefully will rethink their feelings on Curlin, I cannot fathom how anyone could look at that beautiful chestnut and see his races and ask, "just what has he done?" He is now preparing for the Stephen Foster Handicap and hope that he runs as true as he has but we do know that things can happen and if he lost it would not stop how I feel about him or take away what he has done, he is still a great horse and thank you Mr. Jackson for letting us watch him alittle longer and for not letting the "Big Bucks" of a stud deal prevent you from racing him into his 4 year old career.

re: Will Big Brown 'Drive' to Meet Curlin ?

Monica V — Thu, 29 May 2008 15:31:02 GMT

Julie,

What a wonderful post! You are so right! People get so caught up in the moment and are so sure that his horse with all of 5 races under his belt his the best seen in 30 years!!!!!He has much to prove before that title can be bestowed upon him. So far his competition has been pretty soft. HE has won his races in times that are no better than others but his competition is behind him which shows me they aren't much. He does carry speed for a distance though which is pretty incredible but his mile and a half Belmont is going to be the real test. He will have to run a quarter of a miler further than he ever has and there are horses in the race begging for more distance. I don't think BB's best distance will be l1/2 miles, I think his best distance is 1 1/8 probably. Easy Goers best distance was 11/2 miles because it took him a while to hit his best stride. He was definitely a distance horse but a great horse no doubt as was Sunday Silence. Everyone is so sure of triple crown this year just as they were with Smarty. Smarty was also undefeated and just a fabulous horse winning the Preakness by 11 1/2 lengths but being beat at the Belmont by a fresh horse although Smarty's campaign was longer and tougher than BB's. Maybe there will be a TC this year but we will see. The Belmont is the stumbling block.

I just wish BB had a different trainer. Anyone could train this horse and he would still be winning.

re: Will Big Brown 'Drive' to Meet Curlin ?

FormerFan — Thu, 29 May 2008 15:16:41 GMT

Who cares if B.B. and Curlin meet. Curlin is the better horse. He's been in all the situations B.B. hasn't and he fought to win races because his competition was better (Street Sense). Now, don't tell me that Street Sense's ability is going to be trashed. Last year he was a superhorse, but don't tell me compared to Big Brown he's a shetland pony running amongst thoroughbreds. Street Sense was a good horse and would have been able to run with Big Brown. It's just a matter as to who would have broke down first. Remember when Holy Bull tried to go with Cigar, he nearly killed himself and had to be pulled up with a serious injury. That's usually the outcome when two great horses are trying to run one another into the ground. Curlin lost the Belmont Stakes to a fresh, well bred and well rested filly that was in a race she was bred for. He had just run in all 3 triple crown races with what, 5 races under his belt, so I think he ran a heck of a race in the Belmont. Only lost by a head, not 10 lengths. No, this horse is clearly a monster. Big Brown is what he is, the best of this crop and that's it. I wonder if he'll go to Dubai, oh, he'll be in the breeding shed by then. If you need to know what a great horse is I'll give you some examples: Citation, Secretariat, Arts & Letters, Damascus, Dr. Fager, Affirmed, Seattle Slew, Cigar, Genuine Risk, Bold Forbes (Sprinter who won the Belmont Stakes) Affirmed, Nashua, John Henry, etc.... Just so everyone knows what the definition of a great horse actually is. Six lifetime starts, labeled as great then off to the breeding shed. At least CURLIN is sound enough to still be racing at 4. Doesn't have that brittle hoof problem that will pass on through the breeding shed (genetics).

re: Will Big Brown 'Drive' to Meet Curlin ?

Monica V — Thu, 29 May 2008 15:12:12 GMT

Bill,

You think Curlin is a plodder and BB would trounce him? You are certainly entitled to your opinion but did you see the Dubai Cup? Watch it on Youtube and tell me how a plodder won that race by 71/2 lengths blowing by the competition?

re: Will Big Brown 'Drive' to Meet Curlin ?

Julie L. — Wed, 28 May 2008 22:52:26 GMT

I believe that in everyone's excitement at a possible triple crown winner and wanting so desperately for Big Brown to be a "superhorse" that suddenly Curlin has become some old hay bag, what's wrong with you people. Did you not see his heart in the Belmont Stakes against a filly whose heart was just as big or how about the Breeder's Cup Classic or my God, the Dubai World Cup, if ever a horse made winning look so easy it was Curlin in the Dubai World Cup and that was against an international field. When I watched Seattle Slew lose the Swaps Stakes to J.O. Tobin I heard the people commenting as we left Hollywood Park about how Seattle Slew wasn't so great after all. It amazes me how fast a person's view can change as soon as they think that they have seen the next great horse. Do not belittle Curlin's accomplishments, Big Brown is young and really does need to show that he can handle all types of horses and adversities. I think that when Afleet Alex nearly went down in the Preakness and yet pulled himself up and still won the way that he did put him in the catagory of greatness and then to watch how he accelerated away from the rest of the horses in the Belmont Stakes to win by 7 lengths, that is a great horse. Sometimes people are to quick to jump on a horse's bandwagon just because for the moment he is the hot new horse well what tune will you be singing if he loses? And with that quartercrack believe me it could possibly hamper his true running ability. How many people left Spectacular Bid after he lost the Crown but then wwhen he started winning again jumped back on. I just wish people would be alittle kinder in regards to other voices who consider Curlin great and are just cautiously waiting to see just what Big Brown can do.

re: Will Big Brown 'Drive' to Meet Curlin ?

Liz — Wed, 28 May 2008 21:44:42 GMT

Bad news on the way from the camp of BB. :( All our speculations are moot.

re: Will Big Brown 'Drive' to Meet Curlin ?

R Dorsey — Wed, 28 May 2008 20:26:19 GMT

After reading today what Casino Drive's time was in a 6 furlong workout and knowing that it was too slow to actually be considered a "workout", there is almost no way that he will beat Big Brown on June 7. In order for ANY horse to beat Big Brown, out of this year's 3 year olds, they would have to be unstoppable and so far, the only 3 year old this year who is unstoppable is Big Brown. That said, I would love to see Big Brown go up against Curlin. These are two of the best horses we have seen in a very long time and both deserve to go down in history. Quit taking away from what Big Brown has done so far. He has not lost a race yet, he came from the 20 post to win the Derby by nearly 5 lengths, he jogged home to win the Preakness by nearly 5 lengths again and he WILL win the Belmont. We have not yet seen what the best of Big Brown is, he hasn't met anyone who made him work for his wins. Whereas Curlin, not to take a single thing from him, we saw his best at the same time last year when he ran his heart out against Rags To Riches to lose by a nose. At this time last year, Curlin would have just been another horse beaten by Big Brown. Curlin didn't start doing his best until close to the Breeder's Cup, that's when he started to show he deserves to go down in history. Big Brown has already shown us that he deserves it NOW.

FYI, it is Colonel JOHN not Colonel JON. If he's one of your favorites, you need to know how to spell his name.

re: Will Big Brown 'Drive' to Meet Curlin ?

Nancy — Sun, 25 May 2008 00:59:06 GMT

Praise to the author. This is a very good article I love the attached footage. Nice job Adam!

re: Will Big Brown 'Drive' to Meet Curlin ?

SMARTYJONESFAN — Sat, 24 May 2008 22:23:14 GMT

BIG BROWN WILL WIN THE BELMONT BY 10 LENGTHS.... SMARTY JONES IS STILL THE BEST HORSE I´VE EVER SEEN.

re: Will Big Brown 'Drive' to Meet Curlin ?

aspradling — Fri, 23 May 2008 19:32:12 GMT

There has definitely been a lot of interest expressed in the mare and boodmare area, so I will work on some angles to blog with in the future and pass that on to Scot, who does Pedigree analysis on his Five Cross Files.

cs.bloodhorse.com/.../the-other-belmont-entrant-looking-towards-history.aspx

re: Will Big Brown 'Drive' to Meet Curlin ?

s lee — Fri, 23 May 2008 19:08:22 GMT

Jen wrote: "And since we're also talking about great broodmares, I've heard some breeders say that the mare is more important than the stallion when breeding."

At the Irish National Stud they have walking tours between the stallion paddocks and then on to where the mare and foal pastures and the guide we had said "the stallions are good, but a good broodmare is gold".

re: Will Big Brown 'Drive' to Meet Curlin ?

Karen — Fri, 23 May 2008 17:59:33 GMT

Mike: Great comments. Why, because it's nice to see someone who understands the mind/talent connection that comes with BB. Anyone knows when you have a horse with the talent BB has and add the fact that is head is in the game and he fully trusts his rider, you have yourself a racehorse. Add the fact that I believe he gets his rocket acceleration from Damascus who he has on bottom and top....WOW! I am pumped for the Belmont. If infact the racing God's gave BB the ability to run the mile and a half, as they did Damascus, BB will win and win big. How exciting!!! BB has very interesting breeding. I suppose another blog altogether.

re: Will Big Brown 'Drive' to Meet Curlin ?

Karen — Fri, 23 May 2008 17:01:17 GMT

Jeremy: BB has quarter cracks. This does not necessarily mean he has bad feet. It may or may not be a genetic issue however saying he has "bad feet" is not being in the know. Quarter cracks can become common in a horse that is in training. Most of the time, it is caused by hard training and the stress being put on the feet. Sometimes, genetics can play a roll and cause thin hoof walls that may be more prone to quarter cracks when worked hard. Extreme cases can be very painful and the horse will be lame. Even with corrective shoes. BB is not lame. His quarter cracks are under control. Some may say held together by glue, which just sounds uneducated to me. I have known horses of all disciplines to get quarter cracks. From roping to dressage.

re: Will Big Brown 'Drive' to Meet Curlin ?

Jen — Fri, 23 May 2008 16:36:51 GMT

When I was a kid, I read several books that kept saying horseman were really reluctant to apply the word 'great' to horses. If he wins a few races, he might be 'nice.' If he wins a few more, he might be 'good.' If he wins several in breathtaking fashion and beats the best out there, he might just be 'great.' It seems today, however, we toss the word 'great' around very easily. Is it just because with thirty years without a Triple Crown winner, we're really starved for a great horse? I admit a lot of the hyperbole flying around about Big Brown right now is making me nervous -- I'm a teeny bit on the superstitious side, and I can't help but think it's jinxing him.

And since we're also talking about great broodmares, I've heard some breeders say that the mare is more important than the stallion when breeding. There are a couple of reasons for this that I can see. First of all, unless the mare dies, rejects the foal, or the foal is taken off her for some reason, the mare raises the foal for its first few months, and tends to influence the foal's attitude. Calm mares tend to raise calm foals, nervous mares nervous foals and so on. Genetically some traits are also 'sex-linked' -- carried on the X chronosome so females can give them to all their offspring but males can only give them to their daughters. (There are ones carried on the Y chronosome that males can only pass to their sons too, but those are much rarer.) The 'large heart gene' in Thoroughbreds appears to be sex-linked, which is probably part of the reason Secretariat was a much better broodmare sire than he was a sire in general -- he gave his large heart to his daughters, who could give it to all their offspring, but he couldn't give it to his sons.

re: Will Big Brown 'Drive' to Meet Curlin ?

aspradling — Fri, 23 May 2008 15:15:19 GMT

Jason Shandler has just posted a new insightful blog on a conversation about Big Brown with Iavarone...

Then why do it, I asked? Do you feel an obligation to racing fans?

Yes, he answered without hesitation. He said that was the only reason he is planning on doing it. He knows how much people love watching Big Brown and what it would mean to the sport to see him in the Breeders' Cup. He said he looked forward to a potential match-up against Curlin in The Classic.

re: Will Big Brown 'Drive' to Meet Curlin ?

Hank — Fri, 23 May 2008 14:25:26 GMT

I love Big Brown, Just for a minute everybody lets take a real close look at him and enjoy him, because it will be a long time again before one like him comes along, it is not his fault they are a cheap bunch, he has and will beat anything they throw at him. I agree his pedigree is questionable, but his physicl being is just awesome. Great stride,head, size, comeplete package. You can put a sack of oats on his back and he will beat these, the only way they can beat him is in a brooke ledge van

re: Will Big Brown 'Drive' to Meet Curlin ?

Bellwether — Fri, 23 May 2008 09:13:58 GMT

somehting good is going to shake out of all this...going to take some work but Horse racing is comming back to the tip of the sports world where it belongs...Long Live The King !!!!

re: Will Big Brown 'Drive' to Meet Curlin ?

Bellwether — Fri, 23 May 2008 09:07:33 GMT

How can one not Love this Game...

re: Will Big Brown 'Drive' to Meet Curlin ?

Jeremy M — Fri, 23 May 2008 07:40:27 GMT

Imma have to disagree with you Splitsof12 on Curlin being better then Cigar. Curlin is one of the best horse so far this century, up there with Point Given and Ghostzapper, but he is not better then Cigar or Holy Bull. But he deserves to be in the same class. As far as Big Brown goes, imma have to agree with everyone about this years 3 year old crop, it does appear weak, or maybe we were spoiled last year by so many good three year olds like Curlin, Street Sense, Hard Spun, Rags to Riches, Any Given Saturday and even Tiago and the year before that with Barbaro, Bernadini and Discreet Cat. I personally think its too early to be calling Big Brown great. They are using the term too loosely. If he can keep up his winning ways and beat Curlin at the end of the year then he can be called great. And just to think 3 months ago, this horse was unheard of. And here is another problem I have with how things are today. Big Brown has bad feet right? The owners are so quick to retire him, but isnt the purpose of breeding is to improve the breed? to make the next generation better then the last? That's why the Thoroughbred, particurlary those bred in America are so fragile these days and not as durable as they were 20-30 years ago. Greed is what destroying the breed today. Just because a horse wins a couple of races, doesnt mean he should be bred. Me personally think if a horse is prone to injuries, he should not be bred. With the better breeding we wouldnt have the need for synthetic tracks because horses would be sounder. Anyway, Big Brown wins triple crown in 2 weeks but I wouldnt put him up there with the all time great just yet.

re: Will Big Brown 'Drive' to Meet Curlin ?

Celtic — Fri, 23 May 2008 04:18:00 GMT

Well we would all love to see a race that would feature Curlin and Big Brown. I think they are both fantastic horses. But before we can even think about such a race Big Brown has to win the Belmont. I realize we are a society that lives in the now- but lets remember that BB didn't win the Kentucky Derby by the margin Barbaro did, he did not win the Preakness by the margin Smarty Jones did and we know he's not going to win the Belmont like Secretariat did. This is a mediocre 3 year old crop- Big Brown needs to win on June 7th before we should look any further.

re: Will Big Brown 'Drive' to Meet Curlin ?

mike — Fri, 23 May 2008 00:27:31 GMT

Oh boy. Here comes the never ending "yeah but can he beat..." Truth is Big Brown is on his way to being a once in a lifetime horse. Not Curlin, Smarty Jones, Barbaro or any other recent horse is as good as this horse. Think about it. Desmaroux was able slow BB down, pull him back and take him outside the trap set up in the preakness and he still smoked the field. Yes thats right, he killed BB's momentum but it didn't matter. This is an all time great horse. Only shady racing can stop him, no one horse can beat him.

re: Will Big Brown 'Drive' to Meet Curlin ?

aspradling — Thu, 22 May 2008 21:24:10 GMT

Jason Shandler has a good post asking the same question, but with a different spin on Big Brown's future. Everyone should go read it.

cs.bloodhorse.com/.../a-plea-to-iavarone-let-him-run.aspx

Also, I greatly appreciate the dialog and encourage it. And in general, please continue for this has been a good honest discussion, lets continue the tact.

re: Will Big Brown 'Drive' to Meet Curlin ?

Karen — Thu, 22 May 2008 20:28:12 GMT

mojoman5 and slewbaby: please advise us as to what evidence you are using to come up with your theory regarding this years crop. Either you know nothing about horse racing or you posted just to get a rise from the other bloggers. Here are the opening quarter times for this years Derby. 23.30/46.73. Please keep in mind BB broke from post 20. In case you are wondering where post 20 is, no it is not on the rail. It is the far outside post. Also keep in mind he traveled the entire race, 4-5 wide. Here are Street Senses opening quarters in the derby last year 22.96/46.26 on the rail. Your posts are excuses. Bad ones at that. If BB wins the triple crown he will not have to prove anything more to anyone. A horse hasn't won in 30 years. Not even the exceptional colts of last year (including the great Curlin) could conquer the TC. I agree he needs to be looked in the eye but so far his turn of foot is so brilliant, no one has been there to look him in the eye.

re: Will Big Brown 'Drive' to Meet Curlin ?

Slewbaby — Thu, 22 May 2008 18:49:11 GMT

This years 3 year old crop is pathetic. Big Brown isn't exactly breaking track records. That goes to show how pitiful this crop is, how embarassing for the trainers and owners. They should all be retrained as show horses because they certainly can not run. I own a goat that could have placed 2nd in the Preakness.