Breeders Cup Chat - All Comments

re: Hansen or Union Rags for 2YO Champion?

Stake horse — Tue, 20 Dec 2011 16:43:52 GMT

Let's face it Hanson has not had one bad step he has won every race and impresively .

Hanson and Union Rags both raced on the same track the same day and Hanson won.

There is no debate Hanson is the better horse .

I have bred and raced many horses I only dream of a horse like Hanson.

re: Hansen or Union Rags for 2YO Champion?

Stake horse — Tue, 20 Dec 2011 16:33:27 GMT

Let's face it Hanson has not had one bad step he has won every race and impresively .

Hanson and Union Rags both raced on the same track the same day and Hanson won.

There is no debate Hanson is the better horse .

I have bred and raced many horses I only dream of a horse like Hanson.

re: A Lot to Look Forward to in 2012

Redhorse — Fri, 09 Dec 2011 04:52:13 GMT

Hey I'm new. Does anyone know what happened to Coil? It seemed like he finished last in two races and then there was nothing else said. I'm looking forward to see Animal Kingdom come back. Anyone know if he will stay on turf or dirt?

re: A Lot to Look Forward to in 2012

Forbidden Apple — Fri, 09 Dec 2011 01:50:37 GMT

Coldfacts,

Thank you for mentioning Out Of Bounds, I'll keep an eye on his progress. I got to see several Darley Street Sense and Discreet Cat babies this past summer and fall. I liked the physical and mental characteristics of the Discreet Cat babies. They are all in on Bernardini, it was amazing to see so many offspring of the same horse in one barn.

re: A Lot to Look Forward to in 2012

KY VET — Thu, 08 Dec 2011 21:50:27 GMT

You BREEDING PEOPLE are INSANE! From the FAULTY SCIENCE of COLDCUTS, to the "THEY HAVENT WON AT !) FURLONGS" people.....To say because one race(the derby) wasnt won by a sire or a damn, is stupid science....you are talking about ONE RACE! The SAME for talking about 10 or 12 furlong races! There are so FEW! And most are later in the year...If you GENIUSES cant figure out that QUALITY ROAD COULDVE won at 10 furlongs....then you are just STUPID! You think, because a horse wins, on the day of a long race, that they love going long.....Drosselmeyer wins a slow belmont and you all think it was because he is great going long! How about he loves weak races? He won the classic mainly because he got sharp, and won one of if not the weakest beyer fig. for a classic=104....everyone ran bad.. it happens....what if a healthy quality road ran this year and ran a very sub par 106? does that make him a distance specialist? You breeding people might as well throw darts at a number board!! Of course COLDCUTS cant throw because he is wearing that straightjacket!

re: A Lot to Look Forward to in 2012

Forbidden Apple — Wed, 07 Dec 2011 13:56:35 GMT

Even though Tizway was a miler most of his career, in 2011 he was in position to prove himself at a classic distance. He was brilliant in the Met Mile and Whitney, enough to be HOY. 2011 has been the most wide open year I can remember when it comes to the handicap division and 3 year old division. I believed Mr. Bond when he said that Tizway was finally healthy enough to train up to a 1 1/4 mile race.

Quality Road and Uncle Mo were pure milers that had no business entering the starting gate for the B.C. Classic. Quality Road loved Gulfstream Park. Maybe a complete meltdown is how best to describe his two B.C. Classic flops.

re: A Lot to Look Forward to in 2012

GunBow — Wed, 07 Dec 2011 07:27:20 GMT

Ranagulzion:

I didn't disrespect Quality Road. It might have read as if I were disparaging Quality Road, but I was only critiquing his ability to get a classic distance.

Quality Road was an outstanding miler-9 furlong horse, and won 4 gr.1 races for his career. But he just wasn't as good at 10 furlongs, and I don't see how one can really dispute this. True, his two 10 furlong races at 3 were far from being bad, with the Jockey Club Gold Cup a particularly solid effort, but both those races came against medium sized fields with only a few truly elite runners. Ultimately, I just don't see any way around the fact that his career record at the distance was 0-3.

Maybe Quality Road could have won the Gulfstream Park Cap if it was still held at 10 furlongs given his affinity for the track. But facing an elite field like he faced in the BC Classic, with multiple classy speed horses, 10 furlongs was just a bridge too far.

I concede that Quality Road likely wasn't at his best in the 10' Classic, but I don't think the entire margin of defeat can be swept under the rug as an "off day". In my opinion, the debacle was a combination of being off form and having to run 10 furlongs while pressed by 3 other solid speed horses.

But really, my earlier post wasn't intended to be about Quality Road; I wanted to bring attention to what I think is a sad lack of gr.1 races open to older horses at a classic distance back East. Whatever the extent of Quality Road's distance limitations, the stakes schedule for gr.1 older males back East allowed Quality Road to go almost the entire year without having his distance capabilities tested. Keep in mind also that Pletcher skipped that one gr.1 race at 10 furlongs+ for older males in the East, the Jockey Club Gold Cup, in favor of running in the Woodward and then training up to the Classic.

I found it amazing that one of the 2 top older males of 2010 was able to go all the way until November without ever contesting a race beyond 9 furlongs. And that's why I asked people to imagine what would have happened had Quality Road held off Blame in the Whitney. Quality Road would have had such a lead in the older male Eclipse that Pletcher could have withdrawn the horse from BC Classic consideration, if he felt the race would not show Quality Road in a positive light, and still likely have won the award.

Had Quality Road not run in the Classic last year(in addition to not contesting the JCGC), his supporters could have continued insisting that he is a gr.1 10 furlong horse, and given (in this counterfactual) that he beat Blame in the Whitney, could have even suggested that he would have done the same in the BC Classic. Those skeptical of Quality Road's distance abilities would not have had the "truth" to offer as evidence, with the "truth" being Quality Road's last place finish in the Classic.

re: A Lot to Look Forward to in 2012

Tiz Herself — Wed, 07 Dec 2011 05:08:13 GMT

Is Tapizar and Joyful Victory returning for 2012?

re: A Lot to Look Forward to in 2012

Coldfacts — Wed, 07 Dec 2011 04:18:02 GMT

Forbidden Apple,

On the subject of the Darley juveniles, I think you should add Out Of Bounds to your list. Why I am recommending the addition of a colt that only has a 4th place finish on his resume? The son of Discreet Cat/Unbridled Elaine is a half bother to Etched Nashua and Meadowlands Cup winner. While Etched had excellent cruising speed, Out Of Bounds is a dead closer. He is big strapping colt that closed rapidly from last for his 4th place finish. This colt needs a distance of ground and will be heard from in CA when this opportunity is presented. From what I saw he is a realy nice colt.

re: A Lot to Look Forward to in 2012

Coldfacts — Wed, 07 Dec 2011 03:47:55 GMT

Ranagulzion

My initial assessment of first 9 of your 17 on watch:

Union Rags: The Northern Dancer line stallions crossed with the Mr. Prospector broodmare line has produced ZERO derby winners. The Mr. Prospector line stallions crossed with the Northern Dancer broodmare line has produced FIVE derby winners. Union Rags is on the wrong side of the cross. (Derby profile fair)

Hansen: A P Indy line stallions that have sires Derby winners - ZERO. Storm Cat line broodmares that have produced derby winners - ZERO (Derby profile poor)

Creative Cause: Storm Cat line stallions that have sired Derby winners - ZERO. Derby winners produced from broodmares that have earned a million dollars - ZERO (Derby profile poor)

Secret Circle: Derbies winners sired by Mr. Prospector line stallions - NINE. Derby winners produced from Northern Dancer broodmare line - FIVE. His dam sire Dixieland Band is associated with two winners.(Street Sense/Monarchos). Eddington is a son of Unbridled the best Triple Crown stallion in the last 15 years. Unbridled is a Mr. Prospector line stallion. This colt had all the derby positives from a pedigree angle and his trainer has won three Derbies. (Derby profile excellent)

Motor City: Derbies winners sired by Mr. Prospector line stallions - NINE. The Mr. Prospector line stallions crossed with the Northern Dancer broodmare line has produced FIVE derby winners. Derby winners are poor Derby sires. Only two derby winner were sired by derby winner in the last 60 years. (Derby profile moderate)

Gemologist: Derbies winners sired by winner of the Breeder Cup Classic - ONE. Mr. Prospector broodmares that have produced derby winners - ZERO. This colt appears to have an issue with his left front leg. Not good for long term soundness. In any event 10F will be a major challenge. (Derby profile poor)

Fire On Ice: Derbies winners sired by Mr. Prospector line stallions - NINE. Storm Cat broodmares that have produced derby winners - ZERO Unbridled Song is a son of Unbridled the best Triple Crown stallion in the last 15 years. However, his horses are very soft and prone to unsoundness. (Derby profile poor)

Sabercat: Storm Cat line stallions that have sired Derby winners - ZERO Mr. Prospector line broodmares that have produced derby winners - TWO. (Derby profile moderate)

re: A Lot to Look Forward to in 2012

Mike Relva — Tue, 06 Dec 2011 22:56:31 GMT

RANAGULZION

Say what you will QR pretty much did what I expected in his last race of his career.

re: A Lot to Look Forward to in 2012

Ranagulzion — Tue, 06 Dec 2011 22:00:48 GMT

Carlos my friend,

"bamboozled & hoodwinked"? ...are you talking to me?(LOL). AP Indy has hoodwinked & bamboozled a few folks on these blogs for a number of years and now his son Bernardini is doing the same. Quit falling for it my friend. Neither will sire the Kentucky Derby winner of 2012.

What might hamper Discreet Dancer is the the closeness of Storm Cat in his pedigree however he is one to follow until any chinc in his armour is found. His sire Discreet Cat was possibly better than Bernardini but Godolphin refused to pit them against each other. Now he could throw a potentially serious Derby contender before Bernardini with a less stellar broodmare cover...we'll see.

re: A Lot to Look Forward to in 2012

Will — Tue, 06 Dec 2011 21:07:14 GMT

Looking forward to the new blog, Jason. Thks for addressing my Haynesfield query.

re: A Lot to Look Forward to in 2012

Jason Shandler — Tue, 06 Dec 2011 18:49:01 GMT

By the way guys, I just posted my first new blog of the year on Triple Crown Talk. See you on the other side!

re: A Lot to Look Forward to in 2012

Ranagulzion — Tue, 06 Dec 2011 17:46:39 GMT

Gun Bow,

Pardon me but I have to come to the defence of Quality Road's reputation here. That ultra smart horse did not "completely unravel in the churchill stretch". Quality Road was not at his best, he ran his the worst race of his career because he obviously trained off. As a 3YO he ran two creditable 10 Furlongs race coming off layoff due to quarter crack issues that set him upperfectly for BC Classic 2010 before the starting gates fiasco. Be fair to the outstanding career of a special horse that set three track records and excited the racing world when at his best. Thank you very much.

re: A Lot to Look Forward to in 2012

LAZMANNICK — Tue, 06 Dec 2011 17:13:08 GMT

Great points as always Gunbow, especially about Quality Road. I have always been one that felt that the 10F distance is very meaningful in racing. Although I love milers and sprinters, I think that the true test of greatness is not only the ability to win races and overcome adversity whenever it arises, but to be able to win at the classic distances. Some say that Black Cavier is the best in the world and when comparing her to Zenyatta (I’m not trying to make this abut Zenyatta) they will argue that she is best. She probably is……at the shorter distances of maybe up to a mile. However, if they both line up in a classic 10F race, who would be most likely to win?

re: A Lot to Look Forward to in 2012

Carlos in Cali — Tue, 06 Dec 2011 17:09:21 GMT

Gunbow

I think the fact they paid $8.5m for Royal Delta and her proven synthetic form has more to do with her pointing for the $10m DWC,IMO.

THAS is on a different path... HOY.He might feel the effects of that long trip the rest of the year,like we've seen before.

re: A Lot to Look Forward to in 2012

Mike Relva — Tue, 06 Dec 2011 16:13:37 GMT

GUNBOW

Your comments are always a voice of reason demostrating great knowledge of the game unlike some.

Thanks.

re: A Lot to Look Forward to in 2012

GunBow — Tue, 06 Dec 2011 06:05:13 GMT

KY VET:

I too never count my chickens as it concerns horses staying healthy.

I only discussed To Honor and Serve's potential campaign to highlight the fact that if he remains on the East Coast, he won't have to answer one of the main questions surrounding him, whether he can get 10 furlongs in elite company, until late in the year. Of course, that's all assuming he remains healthy.

The East Coast handicap calendar, without a gr.1 race over 9 furlongs until the Jockey Club Gold Cup, almost allowed Pletcher to steal HoY or at least the Older Male Eclipse last year with Quality Road without that horse having his distance limitations exposed. Just imagine if Blame had been unable to nail Quality Road on the wire in the Whitney? Quality Road would have exited the Saratoga meet with 4 gr.1 wins to his name in 2010, and would have had the Older Male Eclipse virtually sewn up. With the big lead for divisional honors, Team Quality Road could have afforded to be extra cautious with their horse, and possibly could have gotten away with not running in the Classic(like Holy Bull in 94, Mineshaft in 03, or Rachel in 09). Even with Blame winning the Classic, I would think Quality Road would have received strong support for the older male Eclipse given the head-to-head win over Blame. And we would have never seen Quality Road completely unravel in the Churchill stretch.

There is a similar situation this year. Supporters of Tizway can hypothesize that the horse would have handled 10 furlongs without difficulty, and won the Jockey Club Gold Cup and BC Classic. And since Tizway missed those 2 races, and because the East Coast did not have any other gr.1 race for older horses over 9 furlongs besides the JCGC, skeptics(of Tizway's classic credentials) can only respond with conjecture of their own.

Interesting that Mott is pointing THAS to the Met Mile and Royal Delta to the Dubai World Cup. Don't know if it says anything about THAS, but it clearly shows that Mott believes Royal Delta is a true distance horse, and that 10 furlongs will level the playingfield for her against males(in contrast to Havre de Grace, whose best chance against males is at distances under 10 furlongs).

re: A Lot to Look Forward to in 2012

Forbidden Apple — Tue, 06 Dec 2011 05:31:11 GMT

Coldfacts,

I started forming my doubts about Dialed In last winter when he was breezing once a month. He was a talented colt, but maybe best as a closing sprinter. The big horses in the Zito barn all had bad luck in 2011. And we may never see Morning Line, Fly Down, or Dialed In in the starting gate again.

I do not need to watch the Remsen replay again. It was easy to see Done Talking make a strong bid from last place. With O'Prado Again I like that he can run on turf and dirt, just Like Paddy O'Prado did. In his maiden race just before the Remsen, he got up for the win after a 1:16 and change 6f split. And in the Remsen he was a bit wide the entire race. I see this classy colt still full of potential. If he ends up being a grass horse, I still like him.

I am expecting a big 2012 from several Darley/McLaughlin juvenile runners. Alpha, Consortium, and Lake Superior are a few that could make some noise. Slew and Mr. Right are another pair of classy juveniles that I like from the McLaughlin barn.

re: A Lot to Look Forward to in 2012

Bob from Boston — Tue, 06 Dec 2011 03:36:14 GMT

With all the strong national leadership in racing I'm surprised nobody has approached KY Vet about leading a marketing campaign for horseracing. He'd have to be better than the androgenous Go Baby Go person (Pat).

re: A Lot to Look Forward to in 2012

Tiz Herself — Tue, 06 Dec 2011 03:16:26 GMT

Also welcome Exhi, too, as it is rumored in these parts that he was bought and might stand in Alberta for 2012. Am excited about his potential here, too. I don't believe we have a Maria's Mon son here, so will be great to see!

re: A Lot to Look Forward to in 2012

Tiz Herself — Tue, 06 Dec 2011 03:05:04 GMT

I also welcome Chocolate Candy to Alberta! And warn him that -40 and several feet of snow is norm for the spring season. Poor guy. He'll adjust okay. Hope to go and see him maybe in the summer as am not far from where he'll be at.

Haven't been this excited since they brought Cape Canaveral, Gilded Time, Fisher Pond, Kissin Kris, and Saint Stephen here.

re: A Lot to Look Forward to in 2012

Tiz Herself — Tue, 06 Dec 2011 02:56:58 GMT

Looks promising to see Royal Delta back with Mr. Mott! Can't wait to see her 2012 campaign! Read that they are trying for the World Cup - that would be amazing.

Can't wait to see her, Awesome Feather, Harve De Grace, Plum Pretty, Zazu, It's Tricky, and Pachattack! The Distaff division will be strong. Hoping all stay sound and healthy!

re: A Lot to Look Forward to in 2012

Mike Relva — Mon, 05 Dec 2011 21:49:35 GMT

Great Royal Delta is remaining with Mott.