What Did We Learn From Big Brown's Haskell?

grasshopper facts

grasshopper facts — Sun, 21 Sep 2008 14:53:06 GMT

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re: What Did We Learn From Big Brown's Haskell?

secretariat — Thu, 14 Aug 2008 02:39:26 GMT

Enough of excuses why BB did this or that. He should just be doing THAT! Until he is a sure winner people shouldn't be making up reasons why he isn't living up to all the rumours why he is so great.

re: What Did We Learn From Big Brown's Haskell?

katsan — Sun, 10 Aug 2008 02:45:51 GMT

Now Ruidoso Downs has changed a lot from the old days, it's interesting. They have a designated track for the QH races between the grandstand and the main track. One of my very early memories is when we used to go on the mesa and watch the match races. Just like Louisiana a lot of good jockeys came up here from those match races. In fact a lot of good jockeys got their start here In NM. I can't remember for sure how big it was but we had a training track around one 10 acre parcel of our farm here in Alb. I've walked it many ttmes but we've planted over it now, not sure how big it was.

re: What Did We Learn From Big Brown's Haskell?

Wanda — Sat, 09 Aug 2008 23:54:43 GMT

GirlPower: He has testicles, I'm sure he does think he's an "alpha male".

re: What Did We Learn From Big Brown's Haskell?

Wanda — Sat, 09 Aug 2008 23:30:32 GMT

Thanks for answering Katsan and I hear you about bullrings. Get this I ran horses on a half mile track too! At home it's a five eights track so first time I saw a mile I was like oh my god I didn't know they could make them that big!

re: What Did We Learn From Big Brown's Haskell?

Girl Power — Sat, 09 Aug 2008 22:15:39 GMT

You could be right about the proximity of other horses disturbing Big Brown. It's becoming obvious that he dislikes being pinned in behind horses. KD probably knew that, which would explain why he jerked him off the rail early in the Belmont. It has been very fortunate for BB that he drew the far outside post in both the Derby and FL Derby. I remember reading somewhere, early on in his career, one of his connections say that BB is an alpha male and does not like other horses near him.

I saw how after crossing the wire in the Haskell, KD was battling with BB trying to prevent him from galloping out. Why would he do that? What is the deal with him? Let the horse gallop out and cool down for gods sakes. And then when he turns him around with the aid of another horse (Coal Play?), he just stops Big Brown cold. The horse could have had a heart attack. I really think Garret Gomez, Prado, Nakatani, or even Rose again would be better for BB.

re: What Did We Learn From Big Brown's Haskell?

katsan — Sat, 09 Aug 2008 20:47:27 GMT

Wanda, The funny thing is we had very few quarter horses. I think just one running back then a very nice filly who ended up getting hurt retired and we now have her grandson and last decendent a grandaughter Dash For Cash is grandsire. Later on my sister took all the QH's for her rodeo, in HS, College and Jr they can rope, goat tie etc as Im sure you know. I knew Wayne from Sunland Park and Ruidoso Downs. He ran a lot of quarter horses we ran TB's on what they called a bull ring at Ruidoso. Also knew Keith Asmussen, Steve's dad, he rode for us a couple times. Knew JJ (Jake) Pletcher from there too, bunch of the oldies buy goodies. Yes you spelled Albuquerque right. Actually I'm up here now and we have hay down still and it is thundering like crazy. Rained last night too. Not sure if you read my early post but they're moving the track here at the Fair Grounds, out to the middle of nowhere 40 miles or so out of ALB. Don't know how long ago you were here but we now have a track at Hobbs, one at Farmington in addition to the others. Raton closed years ago and so did Santa Fe Downs, they're talking about reopening them though, slots are huge here. In fact we have an Indian Casino (yes that is what they call them here, it's politically correct) that is just a couple miles from the farm. There are 10 more within a 70 mile radius. I know the owner of the track in ALB so I'm not saying too much, just not very happy. Our 'friend' hasn't been as vocal, where it got bad was on the other blog with SH, not fun seems okay now.

Paula,

Actually Dr. Caton is a Neurologist/Neurosurgeon. Maybe you recall Jeff had an accident in 93 when Tabasco Cat ran into him and Jeff suffered a severe brain injury. The cardiologist was another Dr who saved the life of the owner and he named him that name, wish I could remember. Big storm rolling through here right now. So better get off computer.

re: What Did We Learn From Big Brown's Haskell?

Paula Higgins — Sat, 09 Aug 2008 19:26:53 GMT

Katsan, thanks for your very nice reply.I really do appreciate it. I am sorry the Lukas horse didn't do quite as well but I bet the cardiologist was thrilled to have a horse named after him. I know I would be. A little piece of immortality. You would have loved Dr. Fager, the human/person. The horse Dr.Fager was specatcular.

TBRacing Fan thank you for the link and explanation. I DO now see it thanks to your explanation. That worries me. Why would he do that? If a horse just won a race like that for me I would let him do WHATEVER he wanted, short of injuring himself. I hope that Rick Dutrow sees this and has a chat with him if they don't choose a different rider for the upcoming races. I like KD. He seems like a very nice guy. But I think thye are having problems communicating. The Belmont ride is still confusing to me an I don't understand why he seemed to be fighting with a horse that wanted to run. Maybe this is a horse you should just let run to the front and let him go?

re: What Did We Learn From Big Brown's Haskell?

Wanda — Sat, 09 Aug 2008 16:38:48 GMT

Katsan: Did your family run Quarter horses? I thought maybe that's why you know D. Wayne way back in N.M. I took a trip down to Albuquerque(did I spell it right) way back in the early 80's. My friend worked for Bob Wattie and was a truck driver. We took down oats and hay to the track there cause Bob had a stable of horses running there.It was early winter and I thought man I'm getting away from the cold for a week. No downside to that except sitting in a Freightliner all the way down and back. It was a free ride tho.

Anywho, nice to read your stuff and others except he who we don't name. Keep it up cause it makes for a good read!

re: What Did We Learn From Big Brown's Haskell?

Concernred in PA — Sat, 09 Aug 2008 16:06:52 GMT

After looking at the replay of the Haskill I can't help but notice once again how Big Brown throws his head up at the beginning of the race, as he did in the Belmont. Is it a from being pulled up and "not smoothly" as "deb" mentioned, or does it have something to do with the horses around him? I thought in the Belmont he was uncomfortably close to the horse in front of him at one point, and when he seemed to be throwing his head up, wondered if he was upset about dirt thrown in his face/eyes/nose and never regained composure. The head throwing in the Haskell happened at the same time another horse came up on him....so, was he being pulled up, or is he having a reaction to the horse next to him as he remembers something unpleasant? I get the feeling that this is an intelligent animal, so who knows what might be going through his head. All I know is that he seemed to break from the gate "happy" (ears up), yet soon was throwing his head around and had his ears back (not lose and floppy as in the Derby and Preakness). I just can't decide if is a reaction to the horses around him, or to something being done by the jockey. Look at the replays.....what do you think?

re: What Did We Learn From Big Brown's Haskell?

katsan — Sat, 09 Aug 2008 12:13:16 GMT

Paula,

I'm so happy we have a fan like you. I hope the whole RD thing goes away. Friends in the same circuit as RD, say he isn't all bad, just can't stop talking. I just know it affects us all. As far as Kent, I really don't know. I do know that RD originallly wanted Edgar, I heard this from another friend back in that circuit. What a neat story about Dr.Fager! I remember a horse named after a cardiologist, but don't remember the name, (senior moment). I slso remember Dr.Caton, a horse named after the Dr who saved Jeff Lukas' life I always wanted him to do well, he was never quite the horse I think Wayne hoped for. Know Wayne from the OLD days in NM.Things on the othr blog got very nasty and very personal, surprising who did the attacking. Not sure some warrnated it. Too much stress. Jason,I prefer your email explanations.

re: What Did We Learn From Big Brown's Haskell?

Wanda — Sat, 09 Aug 2008 05:55:10 GMT

Thanks for the comeback Atthebarn2.I appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions.Can we all agree that maybe this horse has been and is not managed properly. I think everyone can agree on that one.If they are looking to squeeze more money out of this horse then by all means run him where he can win easy. It looks better in the stallion registry( by their thinking). If they want HOY then they better rethink their choice of a turf race.If he don't hook the handicap division it's doutful he'll get the nod as HOY.

re: What Did We Learn From Big Brown's Haskell?

TBRacingFan — Sat, 09 Aug 2008 03:57:33 GMT

[quote]They point to the way he was pulled up after the Haskell was finished. I have looked at the race on youtube and I can't see what they are seeing[/quote]

Paula Higgins 08 aug 2008 10:08 PM

Paula, this youtube link shows most of what I saw:

www.youtube.com/watch

Watch again, from the '2:28' point of the video (when you'll first notice BB begin to try to shake off KD's high and strong hold ...), and pay particular attention from the '2:38' through '2:54' point of the video. Note the 'throw' or 'punch' of BB's right fore, at the '3:04' point of the video, a gesture of defiance, in a horse. Watch his ears - until KD stops pulling at his head, BB's ears are not pricked forward, but swinging back, nearly pinned, at one point, trying to figure out just what his rider wants, of him. They *** forward when he's finally facing the stands. Keep in mind, as you watch, that this horse just fought a serious battle, to win the Haskell. Keep in mind that the winner does not need to 'rush' back, to the winner's circle. After an effort like that, when a horse is still moving like a train, it behooves the rider to give, not take, rein; to keep hands low, and to ease the horse up.

When I saw this action, on KD's part, my heart was in my throat! I expected to see, at any moment, KD jump off the horse, and grab at one of BB's forelegs - I thought he was pulling up an injured horse! The only time I've ever seen a rider fight a horse that much, after the wire, is when something has gone so horribly wrong, that extreme measures must be taken to stop the horse ASAP. The YouTube video stops soon after the 3:15 point, (where you'll see BB's head is still high, and he tosses it in annoyance) so what you don't get to see is the outrider pick up BB. I watched, very very carefully, to see if BB would continue to fight for his head - he did not. I watched, very very carefully, to see if BB would move soundly, alongside the pony. He did. I know that my husband would have had a fit, if any jockey pulled up one of his horses, like that. The horse has just fought a battle to win. There is no sense in making the horse battle, to stop! Let him ease to a trot, before turning him back to the winner's circle. KD turns the horse at the canter, not the trot - and then brings him to a halt with barely four strides, at the 'half-half'. What was the hurry?

If you watch the Belmont, you'll see a similar confrontation between KD and BB before the horses even make the quarter mile. There are occasions - more so in a sprint - where a jock needs to strong-arm his mount into a striking position. But the Belmont is a mile and a half, for Heaven's sake! No one fights their mount, in the Belmont, for position, until they've run at least a mile. How that manhandling didn't cause BB to mis-step, and be injured, is beyond lucky!

This all said, I was not on the horse. But I surely did not see anything that suggested the horse should have been so roughly stopped. I'd have let him have some rein, kept my hands on his withers for balance, and used my body to add wind resistance, to help BB slow down and then trot.

I personally like KD. But if BB was mine, and was going to race as a 4 yr. old, I'd be looking to another jockey ...

re: What Did We Learn From Big Brown's Haskell?

Paula Higgins — Sat, 09 Aug 2008 02:08:01 GMT

Katsan, look at my latest post on the other blog. I am calling for a truce on Rick and acknowledging that he has caused alot of pain in the horse racing community and that I respect the feelings of those who don't like him. Clearly his comments have alienated a ton of people. The end result is that he loses-respect and friendship of the people in the community and for that I am truly sorry. I can't imagine what it must be like to know people dislike you that much. It would be crushing to me.

I loved the way you described the relationship people in the business have for their horses. It's pretty much what I pictured in my mind. I know they are well loved and cared for and I know the horses know it too. An interesting note is that I worked with Dr. (Charles) Fager many years ago in Boston at the hospital I worked in (New England Baptist Hospital). He was a brilliant neurosurgeon and a really nice man (I can't say that for all M.D.s). A true class act. In some ways he reminded me of a jockey because he was quite small. Did you know the AMA (I think it was the AMA, could have been one of the other medical societies) censured him because he had a horse named after him? It was utterly absurd and would never happen now but back then it was the Dark Ages of Medicine. Great man, great horse.

People are posting that KD is not matching up well with BB at this point. i wonder if that is true. They point to the way he was pulled up after the Haskell was finished. I have looked at the race on youtube and I can't see what they are seeing. I hope that isn't happening because I don't think they are changing riders.

re: What Did We Learn From Big Brown's Haskell?

TBRacingFan — Sat, 09 Aug 2008 01:11:50 GMT

[quote](And why, I wonder, didn't Dreyfus name his horse, 'Olive' ...)

[/quote] TBF

Ah, so. Third Martini did indeed sire an 'Olive' - out of Can Make A Tree ... a filly of 1967. Unraced herself, no racing prodgeny. Just a bit of trivia ... :~}