Curlin vs. Big Brown in BC Turf May Be the Only Way They Meet

re: Curlin vs. Big Brown in BC Turf May Be the Only Way They Meet

steve berg — Fri, 15 Aug 2008 02:31:43 GMT

This seems like a classic case of BB and co. dodging the showdown everyone wants to see: showdown at the spa!

If Dutrow and Iavarone weren’t concerned with losing to the best horse in the world, Curlin, they wouldnt be postponing the inevitable until November!

However, with stud fees, purses to prey upon, and all around hype and publicity dictating crucial decisions, one has to question whether the Iavarone type management is the next “Don King” style of horse racing.

Curlin, on the other hand, takes on all challenges, on all surfaces, distances and tracks. He entertains and performs for racing fans without hesitation. His trainer/owner as well as jockey thrive on the pure enjoyment of the sport and its fans.

If these two never meet, it may well be the destiny Curlin deserves!

re: Curlin vs. Big Brown in BC Turf May Be the Only Way They Meet

Jason Shandler — Thu, 14 Aug 2008 01:44:49 GMT

Julie L: I'll write a blog about this later in the week, but my initial reaction to this whole thing is that I agree with Iavarone. They are eyeing the Classic, which is where championships are always decided. The timing of the Woodward and Jockey Gold Cup is not right for Big Brown (although I hope they at least pick a tough spot for him in mid-september). Jackson needs to come to grips with the fact that Santa Anita has synthetic. Its good enough for Henrythenavigator to come over. More on this (annoying) saga later...

re: Curlin vs. Big Brown in BC Turf May Be the Only Way They Meet

Julie L. — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 21:41:50 GMT

Jason - have you read what Ivarone's response to Mr. Jackson's was, I thought that throwing the amount of money around that Ivarone was suggesting is a bit tacky, I don't think that Ivarone is being very gentlemanly. Your thoughts?

re: Curlin vs. Big Brown in BC Turf May Be the Only Way They Meet

Julie L. — Tue, 12 Aug 2008 21:39:10 GMT

In all of this bickerin' over which horse is better I have to say that people sometimes just get mean...we all love which ever horse has captured our hearts and react quickly to defend him when we feel he is being attacked unfairly...we allow one individual to dictate pretty much how we act and I believe many know who I am talking about but no matter how much you love Big Brown or how much you (I for one) love Curlin we must not let ourselves start getting so vicious with each other. As much as Draynay drives me up the wall respect him for defending Big Brown the way that he does though he may be wrong in his assessment of who is the better horse give him his dues for jumping to Big Brown's defense. I believe that in time we may get the answer and Draynay will not be happy with the outcome but Big Brown is a fine racehorse and I hope he continues to do well though I am not a huge fan I respect what the horse has done and done well and as for my beautiful Curlin he will continue to awe us with his beauty and power and though not every Thoroughbred can be "great" Curlin is showing that he is very close to it.

re: Curlin vs. Big Brown in BC Turf May Be the Only Way They Meet

TBRacingFan — Tue, 12 Aug 2008 12:15:30 GMT

[quote]Even Duck Duck Dutrow admitted after the race that this years competition did not amount to much of anything[/quote]

draynot 11 Aug 2008 11:32 AM

Hmmmm. I have a new prayer: God, save me from the day I might use anything 'DDD' has said, to support any argument I might make, or to defend any comment I might post!

I'm guessing, Draynot, that you're not of the same opinion as Curlin, regarding Curlin's dismissive attitute toward the stopwatch, as you support your position (that the 3 yr. olds of 2008 have, shall we say, instead of 'a lack of class', a certain 'lightness of being') with times. I suppose I'm pleased to see that I'm not the only punter who observes, and considers, the stopwatch. That said, I find no particular reason to pay much attention to the finish times of the place and show horse. The place and show horse often prompt the winner's finish time, no? The point I was making was that the finish times of this year's classics don't, IMHO, support your suggestion that the TOBA 'demote' the Triple Crown 2008 series to 'Class III' stakes.

Denis of Cork ran the 2008 Belmont 1.5 in 'sundial' time of 2:30, you say? Hmmmm .... what ancient instrument was used, I wonder, to record Thunder Gulch's Belmont (1995, on a fast track - 2:32) ... lol!

If times are so 'insignificant', then why is it that to a man, there isn't a race-going citizen who can't tell you that the fractions of Secretariat's performance in the Derby decreased, instead of increasing, with each quarter; or quote the incredible finish of 2:24 flat, for the 1.5 Belmont? I'm just askin' ....

re: Curlin vs. Big Brown in BC Turf May Be the Only Way They Meet

draynot — Mon, 11 Aug 2008 15:32:55 GMT

TBRacingFan,

My point has been that the Big Ole Browneye was lucky to be born into what has been outside of him a very weak group of 3 yr olds when he faced them.

As for the KY Derby the place time for the filly was 2:02.8 and the first colt to come in ran a 2:03.6. Those times are nothing to write home about. Even Duck Duck Dutrow admitted after the race that this years competition did not amount to much of anything.

As for the Preakness the place time for Macho Uno was 1:56 and that was mediocre again.

The Belmont was run in a very slow 2:29.6 and the place time was recorded on a sundial as 2:30.4, the show at 2:31.4. We all know where Brownie finished here.

That's been his "competition" as he faced them so far. For the most part he has been facing horses with very questionable class prior to his races against them. Those who had won Graded Stakes before he faced them were winners by default (someone in the class had to win). As a whole this years crop does not stack up well against previous classes thus far.

The Big Ole Browneye matured quicker than the rest of his class.

They are starting to come around a bit now but he's been extremely fortunate to be the only one who matured to the next level when he faced them all. I have qualified my opinion of this class in previous blogs to state that they are the weakest group TO DATE, meaning when Brownie faced them.

re: Curlin vs. Big Brown in BC Turf May Be the Only Way They Meet

JordanA — Sun, 10 Aug 2008 20:13:55 GMT

Wanda,

That's for sure, maybe the 3 chim guys are having second thoughts. Matthew, only a (5)day(s) late and a $ short. Another Drive by.

re: Curlin vs. Big Brown in BC Turf May Be the Only Way They Meet

Matthew W — Sun, 10 Aug 2008 17:07:47 GMT

Let me be included in the Big Brown camp---simply the best--won Derby by five from the TWENTY...

re: Curlin vs. Big Brown in BC Turf May Be the Only Way They Meet

Wanda — Sun, 10 Aug 2008 15:33:07 GMT

Boy I'd hate to be a breeder right now with the way the sales are going. Thanks for the imfo,it's very kind of you to keep me imformed.

re: Curlin vs. Big Brown in BC Turf May Be the Only Way They Meet

JordanA — Sun, 10 Aug 2008 04:12:21 GMT

Wanda, I had the exacta in the 2nd with Flying Private on top, had 50 across on him. The tri wouldv'e been great but didn't have the show horse. Had the tri in the 8th with Nautical Storm on top, 50 across on him. Hit a tri at DM and just missed a 1 grand tri at DM in the La Jolla, but got a small exacta, 50 across on Sky Cape at 12 to 1. Didn't do bad overall. Our sale fund a few hundere or thousand at a time. The HH fillies were Not Sold at Saratoga, the first one went to 90 and the second to 63, more not sold than sold 52 was the median.

re: Curlin vs. Big Brown in BC Turf May Be the Only Way They Meet

Wanda — Sun, 10 Aug 2008 02:36:14 GMT

Just checked Saratoga results. You had the Tri in that race?

Nicely bred one that won the last.

re: Curlin vs. Big Brown in BC Turf May Be the Only Way They Meet

JordanA — Sat, 09 Aug 2008 23:49:19 GMT

Wanda, Supposedly fast but the Flying Private angle worked for me since he had some fast works in the slop. I'm the wounded one who stayed home the boys are back in town. I bet on a HH in a tri at Saratoga Lukas on the top and another Storm Cat did a-ok today. Yes I'm still waiting for my HS guy. Probably next week, my leg put a kink in that. Hate the ISP, blech. Try watchin a streaming video on that, like they are all on meds, including the bidders, handlers and auctioneer. NO I haven't been taking pain pills for my fracture, I'm high on winning a chunk of change.

re: Curlin vs. Big Brown in BC Turf May Be the Only Way They Meet

Wanda — Sat, 09 Aug 2008 20:50:37 GMT

Hey JordanA I hear you. The 6-49 went last week it was 42 mill or something like that. Man could I do some damage with that kind of flash!I'm having server problems so I'll check F-T later.Have a great day at the races.

PS hows the track?

re: Curlin vs. Big Brown in BC Turf May Be the Only Way They Meet

JordanA — Sat, 09 Aug 2008 16:25:22 GMT

Wanda, I saw the post on the HH fillies. There were some others in the catalogue I thought looked good. Wow to find the next BB or Curlin. Better yet Secretariat! The other blog itself got wicked. it wasn't even our old friend it was, well, the H man, whoosh. Hey, if I win the lottery I'll buy us a couple great ones, come on here let our homey's in the posse on here know about it. We'll hook up and run em!! If wishes were wings pigs would fly. (think that's the way my granny puts it)

re: Curlin vs. Big Brown in BC Turf May Be the Only Way They Meet

Wanda — Sat, 09 Aug 2008 06:05:13 GMT

Thanks for the headsup Atthebarn2.I'll check the results cause my video feed is not feeding.

YO,YO gentlemen I said this months ago,if you debate with you know who it just goes on and on in an endless loop. None of it makes any sense so don't buy into it and for crying out loud change the subject!

re: Curlin vs. Big Brown in BC Turf May Be the Only Way They Meet

TBRacingFan — Sat, 09 Aug 2008 02:48:39 GMT

[quote]TBRacing Fan, I guess you missed my post about times and how although they don't lie, they are misleading. To me, times aren't very irrelevant[sic - I believe C means times aren't very relevant] as a whole. Tracks change from year to year and even day to day. Monarchos ran the 2nd fastest winning Derby time ever, does that mean he was the 2nd best horse to ever run in the Kentucky Derby? Like I stated earlier, if you're playing the time game, you seemed to have left off Curlin's Preakness equalling record time. This year's 3 year old crop does not stack up to those in the past. Now I know horses can develop late like Tiznow, Mineshaft, Roses In May, Cigar, etc., but does any of the rest of this 3 year old crop give you even just a subtle hint of developing into one of those types? Another thing that gives clues at to how good a crop may be is consistency, which this year's 3 year old crop has shown absolutely none.[/quote]

Curlin 08 Aug 2008 9:25 PM

Hmmmm. Well, no, Curlin, I did not miss your post about race times, and your opinion regarding their significance (or more correctly, your opinion regarding their lack of significance ... lol!). I am an old fashioned girl. I still have Jack's stopwatch (in spite of the fact that it has long since stopped!) Time was important, to 'old timers', and thus it is, to me. But, my post was not so much about time, it was about the Class of 2008, and the adjective 'pathetic' that was used to describe said 3 yr olds. My point was, would Dreynot use 'pathetic' to describe any of the horses mentioned, in my post? I know I would not!

Monarchos' may not have been the 2nd best horse to ever run in the Derby - but he was the very best horse to ever win the Derby - in 2001. My post, again, was not so much about time, it was about an adjective - 'pathetic'.

You mention that consistancy is an indicator of quality. If that is the measure (or even one of the measures ...), then I might gently suggest that Big Brown is a consistant winner ...

You remark that this year's crop doesn't stack up to those in the past. I'd say they stack up, just fine. One more so than the others, perhaps.

re: Curlin vs. Big Brown in BC Turf May Be the Only Way They Meet

Curlin — Sat, 09 Aug 2008 01:25:53 GMT

TBRacing Fan, I guess you missed my post about times and how although they don't lie, they are misleading. To me, times aren't very irrelevant as a whole. Tracks change from year to year and even day to day. Monarchos ran the 2nd fastest winning Derby time ever, does that mean he was the 2nd best horse to ever run in the Kentucky Derby? Like I stated earlier, if you're playing the time game, you seemed to have left off Curlin's Preakness equalling record time. This year's 3 year old crop does not stack up to those in the past. Now I know horses can develop late like Tiznow, Mineshaft, Roses In May, Cigar, etc., but does any of the rest of this 3 year old crop give you even just a subtle hint of developing into one of those types? Another thing that gives clues at to how good a crop may be is consistency, which this year's 3 year old crop has shown absolutely none.

Draynay, your point about Hard Spun having to face Curlin under Curlin's terms is absurd. Hard Spun was loose on the lead in Classic and Curlin still chased him down. He was under no pressure leaving the 2nd turn, but still couldn't hold on. As far as the slop being a factor, come on! If I recall correctly, the other dirt route races that day were won by Indian Blessing who was loose on the lead at 1 1/16 (not her best distance), War Pass who was loose on the lead at 1 1/8 (not his best distance) and Ginger Punch who was never more than 2 lengths back the whole race and from entering the far turn on, was neck and neck with Hystericalady and they finished 1-2. Why were those horses able to win from the lead or very near it, especially War Pass and Indian Blessing who no doubt were running longer than they want, but you say Hard Spun couldn't because he was running under Curlin's terms? It doesn't add up to me.

As far as Curlin winning on only dirt, yes he has only won on dirt, but he hasn't tried synthetics and neither has Big Brown. Big Brown won on turf and Curlin hasn't, but take Curlin's effort the Man O' War and put that an open allowance or even an overnight stakes on turf and what would you get? I mean, do they have to race Curlin in a race over turf under those conditions to prove he can run on turf? Grade 1 stakes placed on turf would me a heck of a lot more to me as a potential breeder than a 1-time maiden turf winner! And if you keep wanting to say Big Brown can win over anything because of his maiden turf win, then you have to quit saying Curlin is a 1 dimensional dirt/1 1/8 horse. Curlin won his maiden race at Gulfstream by 12 3/4 lengths over 7 furlongs. Therefore, by your logic, even though it was just a maiden race, Curlin should be stamped as not only an exceptional dirt route horse, but also a sprint horse.

re: Curlin vs. Big Brown in BC Turf May Be the Only Way They Meet

Atthebarn2 — Sat, 09 Aug 2008 00:50:42 GMT

Wanda, Just wanted to let you know that Harlan's Holliday has 3 fillies in the preferred sale 291,298 on 8/9, 363 on 8/10. You can watch the live video on FT site, also download a catalogue. You said HH one of your favorites. We had a bad storm, you may know races cancelled, think still a go for tomorrow and the sale. Good luck to you, too rough on here for me. Watch the sale and I'll wave, or on second thought I don't want to buy something by accident.

re: Curlin vs. Big Brown in BC Turf May Be the Only Way They Meet

TBRacingFan — Fri, 08 Aug 2008 23:14:30 GMT

[quote]This years edition of the KY Derby, Preakness, Belmont, and Haskell as well as the other Graded Stakes races for 3 yr old's only should all be downgraded based on the talent of those who ran. This is a pathetic group of 3 yr olds to date[/quote]

Draynot 08 Aug 2008 12:54 PM

Hmmm. A pathetic group of 3 yr. olds, in 2008, you say, Draynot? This year's Kentucky Derby 3 year olds ran in 1:22 and change; ran the Preakness Stakes in 1:54 and change; the Belmont in 2:29 and change. Their Haskell was the 6th fastest, of the past 20 years.

Kentucky Derby, Past 20 years, run in 1:22, include: 1988, Winning Colors; 1990, Unbridled; 1993, Sea Hero; 1997, Silver Charm; 1998 Real Quiet; 2007, Street Sense (hmmm ... was not this the KD in which Curlin finished ... hmmmm, what was it, again? Oh, yes ... third ...; 2008, Big Brown.

Kentucky Derby, Past 20 years, run in over 1:22, include: 1989, Sunday Silence (1:25); 1991, Strike the Gold (1:23); 1992, Lil E. Tee (1:23); 1994, Go For Gin (1:24); 1999, Charismatic, (1:23); 2004, Smarty Jones (1:24); 2005, Giacomo (1:23).

Preakness Stakes, Past 20 years, run in or over 1:54 and change, include: 1988, Risen Star (1:56); 1992, Pine Bluff (1:55); 1993, Prairie Bayou (1:56); 1994, Tobasco Cat (1:56); 1998, Real Quiet, (1:54); 1999, Charismatic (1:55); 2000, Red Bullet (1:56); 2001, Point Given (1:55); 2002, War Emblem (1:56); 2003, Funny Cide (1:55); 2004, Smarty Jones (1:55); 2005, Afleet Alex (1:55); 2006, Bernadini (1:54); 2008, Big Brown (1:54)

Admittedly, only Thunder Gulch and Colonial Affair took more than 2:29 and change, to go the 1.5 mile Belmont ...

Hmmmm. I think the TOBA has little reason to 'downgrade' this year's 3 yr. old classics to 'Grade III' from their Grade I status, based on the 'quality' of the Class of 2008. I'd be very happy, as I'm sure would many others, to have any of the first three finishers, of any of the 2008 3 yr. old classics, in my barn.

re: Curlin vs. Big Brown in BC Turf May Be the Only Way They Meet

LDP — Fri, 08 Aug 2008 20:46:02 GMT

Draynay, same question to you. Who has brown beat? NOBODY! Curlin last year in the Classic proved his metal by beating Lawyer Ron, who was an Eclipse Award winner and Eclipse Award Finalist, SS. Oh and i guess that's due to the fact that he's so one demensional. Also In Dubai he beat Vermilion, Jazil, Asiatic Boy, and Premium Tap, by a record amount of lengths. He beat SS on more than one occasion. That track was fast and longer than 11/8. Your horse has run only against maidens on turf not grade 1 company, and chose to avoid Curlin when they announced that the were going to the Woodward! Also tell me who is rated the top horse in the world according to Timeform? CURLIN! Your horse barely beat an allowance horse in the Haskell on DIRT!!! Even in the Triple Crown he had no real competition, and then couldn't even win it. His own jockey didn't have faith in him to pull off the win in the Belmont. If BB is really so good, why doesn't he face Curlin in the Woodward? Jackson is open for the challenge against BB. He gave an unoffical invitation to see who was the better horse. If Dutrow and IEAH seems SO confident in BB, why don't they face the best?

re: Curlin vs. Big Brown in BC Turf May Be the Only Way They Meet

draynay — Fri, 08 Aug 2008 18:53:05 GMT

LDP sounds like you can't come to grips with the fact Curlin has won nothing since coming back from Dubai. He lost his turf race and almost got passed by a 10 year old. And he beat no one in the Stephen Foster. My question to EVERYONE is simple... what race established Curlin as horse of the year? I will give you a hint...it was a little muddy.

re: Curlin vs. Big Brown in BC Turf May Be the Only Way They Meet

draynay — Fri, 08 Aug 2008 17:49:23 GMT

Curlin... let me put it to you this way, is a Mile and a 8th dirt horse. Plain and simple. Hard Spun was a miler and his best surface was Poly he would run circles around Curlin on Poly. Hard Spun was often forced to run against Curlin under his terms had Curlin ever ran on his he would have been whipped and whipped good. Curlin caught a wet track in the Breeders Cup or Hard Spun would have been gone! Like I said before, Curlin runs one kind of race on one kind of track. Big Brown has won on dirt, on turf, and now he will do it on Poly. Curlin... a dirt only horse... no wins on turf, no wins on Poly.... just dirt. One dimensional horses that don't even try to win the Breeder's Cup are not champions.

re: Curlin vs. Big Brown in BC Turf May Be the Only Way They Meet

draynot — Fri, 08 Aug 2008 16:54:49 GMT

TBRacingFan,

This years edition of the KY Derby, Preakness, Belmont, and Haskell as well as the other Graded Stakes races for 3 yr old's only should all be downgraded based on the talent of those who ran. This is a pathetic group of 3 yr olds to date and the Big Ole Browneye was born under a lucky star to be part of it.

However,no matter how weak the class of animals is the KY Derby, Preakness, Belmont, Haskell. Travers, etc. will remain where they are at in graded status. Someone has to win each of these races and as in the case of this years editions it doesn't always mean they are facing class equal to the graded status. I don't think that the racing gods ever considered that they would come across a class of 3 yr olds as weak as this one has been so far.

re: Curlin vs. Big Brown in BC Turf May Be the Only Way They Meet

schabelli — Fri, 08 Aug 2008 16:34:54 GMT

Right on The Wiz and LDP!!

I concur in spades. draynay's drivel got old a long long time ago. He's reminds me of Paris Hilton's white haired old dude who can't get his tongue out of his cheek. Change the story or revise the issue so I can nit pick some more. draynay should be as The Wiz said screaming for Dutrow to take Brownie to the Woodward if he really believed he could beat the Champ on dirt. On second thought draynay don't cause if by some miracle Brownie did go and win we'd never hear the end of your rants.

To date Curlin has proven far more than Big Brown on both dirt and grass ever will given Brownie probably only has 2 more races to go. Brownie's been blessed to be born into the worst class of 3 yr olds I have ever seen. He has faced them either when they weren't matured to their best or faced just plain weak horses period. Judge him by what he faced and how bad they were when he faced them. If they grow up and improve it doesn't make Brownie any better to have beaten them when they lacked experience and class. Two races to go and Brownies connections are purposely ducking Curlin and the Woodward. What a shame.

re: Curlin vs. Big Brown in BC Turf May Be the Only Way They Meet

LDP — Fri, 08 Aug 2008 16:24:55 GMT

To all reading my last post forgive me for many of my spelling and gramatical errors. I am not a very good speller to begin with. I also have a quick temper which finally flared up when I read Draynay's response to Monica V. Natrally when i responded everything i typed was clear to me but now i read my own response and am somewhat embarassed that i let someone get to me so much that i myself sounded like an idiot. On the part where i tell draynay that he is pushing his opinion of bb being better than curlin and curlin ducking curlin, i meant to say curlin ducking BB, that being draynay's oppinion not mine. Again sorry for my tempermental outburst.