No More Challenges Jess, Just Show Up

re: No More Challenges Jess, Just Show Up

LDP — Thu, 11 Sep 2008 01:54:51 GMT

Thanks Huh,

Just curious and i hope you don't take offense but how did you come up with your chat name? You seem like you know what your talking about most of the time, not clueless.

re: No More Challenges Jess, Just Show Up

JMcM — Tue, 09 Sep 2008 17:51:32 GMT

I think one of biggest reasons horse racing is getting less coverage as a sport is the 'sporting chance' is getting seen less often. Well known horses like BB and Curlin really need meet. Also, often due to unsoundness they're not racing long enough to get a fan base. I was thrilled when Curlin kept on racing. Often the older racers are geldings but sometimes we see mares racing that are 6.

I love it! Those that keep on racing are sound, which is desperately needed. The rush to the breeding shed is not just killing the business as a sport with fans, but breeding unsoundness on and on. We don't need synthetic tracks as much as we need strong legs and feet, that carry the speed.

re: No More Challenges Jess, Just Show Up

JG — Tue, 02 Sep 2008 20:00:45 GMT

Two really good horses and unless they ran a couple of races against each other with no excuses it would be hard to say which is better. The stop watch shows similar times but if you factor in Big Brown's domination in his races and Kent not asking for more it is hard to say how fast he can go. I saw him in the KY Derby and I think he could have broke the track record that day. I was on the outside rail when he took the lead and I have never seen a non sprint horse run that fast. Had the awesome Filly not been in the race it would have been the biggest blowout in the history of the race. Curlin has more experience and some realy nice victories for sure and nearing $10MM in earnings. It is too bad the two won't meet but I really think on a good day with all being equal Big Brown is too fast for Curlin even though factoring in Curlin is 4 and is probably the better over all horse. All I know they are making millions of dollars on the fans and they should give us the heart pounding show we all want to watch no matter who you are pulling for. It is horse racing for crying out loud. Put the best horses against each other and give us what we want to see.

re: No More Challenges Jess, Just Show Up

Huh — Tue, 02 Sep 2008 00:31:40 GMT

LDP:

I couldn't agree more.

re: No More Challenges Jess, Just Show Up

LDP — Sat, 30 Aug 2008 01:45:11 GMT

Jason, BB may not have control of who he faces, but his connections do, and the point is they always put him against inferior competion, sorry if i spelled that wrong. IEAH and Dutrow will only run BB in the softest spots, where he is almost garunteed to win, ever since they got that stud deal befor the preakness. For example BB ran in a weak Travers field, when he could've had another week of rest and taken on, for this year, a very tough Travers feild. BB connections though opted for the Haskel, the easier of the two races. Now BB conections want to run him in a specially made turf race, taylor made for him, and where almost nobody will show up. Curlin, may have run in the Haskel last year aswell, but it was a tough field, with AGS and HS, two of the biggest names in the 3yr old division that year. Curlin also in his next race went to take on the top older horse in 07, Lawyer Ron, in the JCGC. BB has yet to face the top in the handicap division, and I'm talking other than Curlin, and he probably never will. BB will wait till the BCC, when most of the real competion is gone, and when there is a good chance that many of the others their will not take to the track. So saying BB has no control on who he runs against is not a legitimate statement, when his connections, could pick out races with tougher competion.

re: No More Challenges Jess, Just Show Up

draynot — Thu, 28 Aug 2008 17:54:46 GMT

The quality of competition should ALWAYS be the deciding factor of how one stacks up. Regardless of how the race is graded it means nothing if only one or god forbid no quality animals shows up to run.

Maybe they should wait until after the year ends and grade races based on who ran in them and where they were at the time in relation to their development for the year. This would not change the purse structure but would eliminate the appearance of winning a tougher race than it may really have been.

Rating a race before it is run really makes no sense at all. There are no assurances as evidenced by this years races restricted to 3 yr olds that you get the same quality as you should expect.

Winning the Tour De France if Lance Armstrong doesn't show up and the best of the competition is injured or disqualified because of drugs doesn't make the "eventual winner" a superstar. He's just best of the rest.

Scoring 80% on a test while the rest of the class does less doesn't make you an "A" student. It happens all the time.

Being a member of the Jamacian Bobsled Team and competing in the Olympics doesn't mean you are one of the best teams in the world. You had nobody to beat to get there.

I could go on and on. The point is victory means far more if it comes against real competition.

re: No More Challenges Jess, Just Show Up

SundaySilenced — Wed, 27 Aug 2008 14:39:37 GMT

Huh,

Thanks for your response. I guess I would have to agree with you, however, since Jason gets a vote here I'm trying to determine how they arrive at their choices. Do you get more points from running in a triple crown races vs. something like the Gold Cup? The derby is THE DERBY, so I give full credit for that race, however much changes during the year for that to sometimes continue to be a factor. I'm so confused, how did we EVER pick a HOY before the BC?

re: No More Challenges Jess, Just Show Up

Huh — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 00:46:00 GMT

SundaySilenced:

My best guess for the 89' HOY if Sunday Silence or Easy Goer rain in the Classic then I think that Blushing John would win because he finished 3rd behind SS and EG in the Classic and won the Hollywood Gold Cup, Pimlico Special and 2 G2's in 89', so he would get my vote. (If I had one)

re: No More Challenges Jess, Just Show Up

SundaySilenced — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 14:50:06 GMT

A question, is not the BBC a tool to use to pick the HOY and not just the only reason? I think back over the years and see both ways. The HOY decided as a show down between X,Y,Z, and then I've seen it where horses win their division and HOY off just that race with not a lot behind them to back it up. If the year was 89, and neither SS or EG ran in the classic..Who wins?

re: No More Challenges Jess, Just Show Up

Huh — Sun, 24 Aug 2008 01:15:09 GMT

Wanda: I agree with you that Big Brown is running hurt but as much as his connections know they should retire him because of this, they won't because they think they're better than Curlin which they're not and they know the rest of the world thinks Curlin is better so they think by winning the Classic and then beating Curlin in a possible match race matchup in December, then the world will think he's better.

re: No More Challenges Jess, Just Show Up

Racingfan — Sat, 23 Aug 2008 03:03:09 GMT

While I personally believe Curlin to be the better of the two, I agree with Jason that a horse should not be held accountable for the quality of his competition. The races won and the "manner" in which they were won is more more important than "who" they ran against. Looking back at the "greats" of the past, the vast majority of them did not run against stellar competition either, but they way they won was what made the great impressions. I believe Big Brown is a good horse but he hasn't proven his greatness to me yet. And lastly, I still don't believe the breeders cup should decide the championship unless it is only the icing on the cake of the horse that is overall the most accomplished for the year.

re: No More Challenges Jess, Just Show Up

Householder — Thu, 21 Aug 2008 23:14:49 GMT

ZENYATTA now owns the track record for 1 1/16 at Del Mar (1:41.48). You Tube the Clement L Hirsch Handicap and you'll remember why you like horse racing. Whos record did she best? Well Armed who runs in the Pacific Classic this Saturday after wins in the San Diego H and San Antonio (I believe). She loves large fields and deserves a shot at the boys.

re: No More Challenges Jess, Just Show Up

Householder — Thu, 21 Aug 2008 23:04:36 GMT

Huh...I like Well Armed in the Pacific Classic as well. It seems Eoin Harty has him poised for a big run off his San Diego Handicap win at Del Mar. Based on his San Antonio and San Pasqual efforts last winter at Santa Anita if he get the extra 1/8 mile he should take both the Pacific Classic and the Breeder's Cup Classic.

re: No More Challenges Jess, Just Show Up

Jason Shandler — Thu, 21 Aug 2008 22:52:55 GMT

Draynot: I very much disagree with you. Im tired of hearing about the weak quality of 3-year-olds this year. Yeah, it is not a stellar group. We agree on that. But BB has no control over that. He can only beat who shows up. He is not responsible for who he faces. Look at his times and speed numbers. That tells the story. And while I agree that Curlin faced much tougher as a 3-year-old, what world beaters did he beat this year? I'll give you the Dubai WC, but there was nothing special in the Stephen Foster or his other races. All the good 3-year-olds he faced last year are no longer running! Lets not get so caught up in who a horse beats and focus on what race he wins.

re: No More Challenges Jess, Just Show Up

draynot — Thu, 21 Aug 2008 22:43:55 GMT

Jason what is really not hard to understand is this years Classic is not shaping up to be anything special at all. To decide a Championship is more than just based on the fact they may have been decided in the race years prior.

The Big Ole Browneye has faced nothing in comparison to the quality of animal previous HOY winners did and that is not going to change. What a joke to send him to Monmouth to race in a Non-Graded Stakes. It is very clear that his connections are concerned about his real class. Their best shot at HOY at this point is to duck all competition until the Classic and take a one time shot. They are going to the Classic knowing full well it will be a very watered down group to face. Clever tactics to hope the voters ignore the fact this years edition will be inferior to previous years but can they really fool everyone into believing the Big Ole Browneye should win HOY after facing virtually nothing all year.

All his wins have come against what everyone knows is a weak group of 3 yr. olds and if he wins at Monmouth that is only a Non-Graded Stakes anyway. Sure he won the races you mentioned but against nothing at the time he faced them. Graded Stakes for 3 yr. olds such as races won prior to the Derby by others have to have a winner too. That doesn't mean they are top quality competition as clearly proven by the caliber of horse Brownie has faced at the time he met them.

This year is unlike any in memory with the weak 3 yr olds when Brownie faced them and the Classic being run over a fake surface that will weaken the quality of horse run there. HOY should and I hope always be decided on the current years situation which is in the Big Ole Browneyes case doesn't add up. You can win G1's like Brownie has shown against a quality of horse that is far below previous years competitors and it means little. No way should it matter where prior years winners have run. The quality of animal when you face them should always be the biggest factor and Brownie fails miserably there.

re: No More Challenges Jess, Just Show Up

MikeM — Thu, 21 Aug 2008 21:00:29 GMT

I thought the path to HOY was the Monmouth Stakes.Why don't they prep in a nice 2 other than on the grass @ Calder. Oh I forgot, its to hot this time of year.

re: No More Challenges Jess, Just Show Up

Wanda — Thu, 21 Aug 2008 19:24:16 GMT

Huh:I think BB is already hurting. He's had no foot under him since spring. I don't care what they tell the media you can't keep going on a horse with quarter cracks. They don't heal unless you quit on them and get real agressive with a specialist. I think it's a shame because he is a very,very nice 3 year old.

re: No More Challenges Jess, Just Show Up

Jason Shandler — Thu, 21 Aug 2008 18:35:17 GMT

Julie L: Big Brown IS showing up. He's going to the BC where championships are decided. Not too difficult to understand.

re: No More Challenges Jess, Just Show Up

Julie L. — Thu, 21 Aug 2008 18:29:57 GMT

Yes, I am a big Curlin fan but that's because I wait year after year for that 3 year old that blossoms into a great 4 year old, we need those horses to keep people interested in horseracing in general not just when the 3 year old Classics come around. I apologize if I sounded fanatical but I've been watching the sport I love take some big hits and with attendance twindling year after year I worry. But when we get a horse like Curlin who hangs around like Alysheba, Ferdinand, Spectacular Bid and others it gets the everyday person involved, people called Alysheba "America's Horse" or "the people's horse" so when we can get the average person going to the tracks to see their personal favorite then we've accomplished a good deal for horseracing. We need to have emphasizes put back on the older handicappers who hang around including our female stars that often get overlooked. Zenyatta is terrific and so is Ginger Punch. Let's look at the racing industry as a whole just as we should look at the entire racing year as a whole for performances. Big Brown should get Champion 3 year old but Curlin does not need to chase Big Brown to whatever race he choses to run in, Curlin is the reigning HOY and it is up to Big Brown to show why he should dethrone Curlin.

re: No More Challenges Jess, Just Show Up

Huh — Thu, 21 Aug 2008 17:31:26 GMT

Wanda: I think that your right but unless BB gets hurt between now and September 12th or 13th when he runs in the Monmouth turf race he's not gonna get retired. But his connections might think about it after that.

re: No More Challenges Jess, Just Show Up

Wanda — Thu, 21 Aug 2008 15:14:53 GMT

Jordan A: Here's a prediction. I predict that BB will be retired shortly. Culin's owner will have a change of heart and run in the Classic. How do you like that! (I'm serious folks).

re: No More Challenges Jess, Just Show Up

BobP — Thu, 21 Aug 2008 13:47:37 GMT

I don't believe Jess Jackson has an aversion to engineered surfaces per se but rather, I believe that for whatever reason he and the others in Curlin's camp feel they have sufficient evidence that they would be risking the indignity of losing to animals they know are inferior. It bears repeating, synthetic surfaces collectively represent a third surface, a reality that the powers that be in Lexington would prefer not be discussed. Perhaps Curlin's people have seen him move over the Keeneland training track enough times to know his movement isn't quite the same and that he'd be at physical risk if asked to do so within the intensity of a world class graded stakes competition. Whatever the true reason, whether it be protecting his reputation or his physical well-being, I'm sure it falls under the umbrella of doing what's right for their horse. Isn't that what's expected most from owners and horsemen? Jess Jackson's first obligation is to Curlin, not to the Breeders' Cup and their revolution of turning the sport on its head.

The Breeders' Cup has decidedly taken an activist role on the issue of synthetic surfaces, and they are expecting compliance and support from all the players. Their hasty announcement about the BC site for 2009 was made a few short days prior to former NY Governor Elliott Spitzer's announcemet that the NYRA would retain the rights to conduct NY racing. If they had waited until the customary year and a half prior to event time frame for announcement they would have lost one of their red herring excuses for not holding the event in NY. And now I'm hearing reports of Woodbine and/or Keeneland as probable sites in the not too distant future. Gee, what a surprise.

Curlin's connections haven't been secretive about their steed's schedule and goals for 2008. How anyone could not view IEAH and their chatty trainer's blabbering as disingenuous is beyond me. Curlin is recognized at this time as the best horse on dirt in the world. His people are willing and ready to defend that claim if the event is conducted on, well, actual dirt. If the IEAH folks really think different and feel they can prove it then let them follow Curlin to the ends of the earth for a showdown on the kind of surface they both earned their reputations, even if it leads them to the Isle of Honshu.

re: No More Challenges Jess, Just Show Up

Huh — Thu, 21 Aug 2008 13:38:43 GMT

My picks for this weekend's BC Challenge races:

Pacific Classic: Well Armed

Del Mar Mile: Runaway Dancer

Pat O'Brien: Midnight Lute

And I'll throw in some others:

Travers: Macho Again

King's Bishop: Salute the Sarge

Personal Ensign: Ginger Punch

Molly Pitcher: Hystericalady

Play the King: Off Duty

re: No More Challenges Jess, Just Show Up

90Proof — Thu, 21 Aug 2008 12:48:46 GMT

A front runner like Big Brown getting pressure from quality horses will back up everytime on a synthetic surface. I agree Curlin should run in the Classic, his style is perfect for how these tracks play. Big Brown's style in a quality race would almost certainly keep him off the board. If the Big Brown people really wanted to take Curlin on they should run in The Woodward the distance and track would give BB a shot. At 10 furlongs getting pressured by quality horses, on a speed blunting track, with a horse like Curlin stalking him, I can't see him beating Curlin under such circumstances.

re: No More Challenges Jess, Just Show Up

LDP — Thu, 21 Aug 2008 12:45:34 GMT

Jason I'm sorry i normally agree with you, but on this case i don't. I like both BB and Curlin, though I do preffer Curlin. In answer to your question since when is winning the Derby, Preakness, Haskell, and possibly the BCC not enough to marit HOY? The answer to that would be when a horse goes and wins the Dubai World Cup, avoids the Dubai bounce in the Stephen Foster, get second in his first start on grass against grade 1 competition, then goes on to possibly win the Woodward, the JCGC, and the Japan Dirt Cup. Just a reminder if he goes to Japan and wins he will have wins in 3 countries, the US, Japan, and the UAE. If Curlin goes on to do that will you still deny him HOY? To me that is greater than anything BB has acheived, and i couldn't possibly think of voting BB HOY over Curlin. Please tell me if i am wrong and am not perceiving another point.