Should They Have Scratched Peppers Pride?

re: Should They Have Scratched Peppers Pride?

Bradgm — Mon, 15 Sep 2008 16:21:59 GMT

Tiznow, well put. My point about the BC is the care of the track and frankly, even though Hubbard spent a ton of money trying to get it right, this is still Ruidoso Downs were talking about here. Running for millions on a track that was superior to begin with MIGHT make it a little harder decision than running on a QH first track for 60 thousand.

re: Should They Have Scratched Peppers Pride?

Tiznowbaby — Mon, 15 Sep 2008 00:26:30 GMT

LDP,

The point is, people were expecting a New Approach/Duke rematch. Was it sporting to scratch? Obviously O'Brien felt he wouldn't run well, or with horses who try hard, maybe get hurt. Same thing with Pepper.

It should be kind of obvious that I don't believe "sporting" should be a consideration when deciding whether to scratch a horse because of track conditions, be it a cheap claimer or a world champion.

re: Should They Have Scratched Peppers Pride?

Bradgm — Thu, 11 Sep 2008 02:49:43 GMT

LDP, I was there, it was a river. It isn't exactly BC day. The QH's running that day in the big AA Derby actually run on a different track they don't have the turns so don't have the same issues. The BC at Monmouth, well they were going for millions. Joel discussed his reasons on here, it's been talked to death. He didn't want to run her, he didn't have to run her. You saw the bashing of Larry on the other blog, if PP would have gotten hurt it would have been more of the same for a trainer who said he didn't want to jeopardize the mare who is at the end of her career.

re: Should They Have Scratched Peppers Pride?

LDP — Thu, 11 Sep 2008 01:47:45 GMT

Tiznowbaby,

Jason, correct me if im wrong, but i think he was refering to the fact that PP was going for the consecutive win record, but was scratched when the track turned up too muddy for their taste. I think the basic point being made is that in order for her to be a champion, in a way, you also need to show that you can run even when things don't go your way, including track conditions. I don't know how muddy it was there so i won't judge. D of M was not going for some kind of estimed record, even though he was running against NP, in some kind of rematch, that's the difference. As i said i did not see the track so i have no idea how bad it was, even though i've heard it was supposed to be a swamp like last yrs bc. Those conditions are dangerous, some of us will risk it, and some will not. Right now especially to have either horse break down would not be worth the risk.

re: Should They Have Scratched Peppers Pride?

katsan — Tue, 09 Sep 2008 01:12:49 GMT

Wanda,

It always has been in horse racing. We have a mare that goes back to Seabiscuit himself. I can't remember for sure but I think the gelding was a son of Duck Dance, can't remember his registered name, will ask the relative that too.

re: Should They Have Scratched Peppers Pride?

Wanda — Mon, 08 Sep 2008 16:25:26 GMT

Hey Katsan: That horse we had years ago that was in the Seabiscuit movie was by Spook Dance by Duck Dance. He was used because he could break quick from the gate.(I Two Step Too). Small world eh?

re: Should They Have Scratched Peppers Pride?

katsan — Mon, 08 Sep 2008 01:23:31 GMT

Matthew, I'll have to ask my Dad, he is a real oldtimer and remembers all of that, he's the one who reminded me of it. There were a lot of nice stallions here back then, a son of Tom Fool, a Swaps/Nashrulla, just a lot of really good ones. My Dad met Greer many times, he was friends with some of the important people back here. Funny you should mention Duck Dance, my relative had one of his progeny, sold him for a barrel horse a number of years a ago. Big huge gelding, was kind of mean with other horses. Right now they have a whole herd of them with some of the best QH bloodlines and a couple of Appendix with some of the best TB lines, going back to some TC winners.

I really think Wayne Lukas has been one able to get some out of the major TB sires, like Hennessy and Grand Slam, favors from owners.

It would be worth a trip to see the ranch, 13.000 acres was sold by Buddy, then donated to the State, now part of the Pecos Wilderness, it is beautiful. Lots of meadows, the river etc.

re: Should They Have Scratched Peppers Pride?

Matthew W — Sun, 07 Sep 2008 23:12:12 GMT

Catsan I remember Ack Ack! I did not know he stood for awhile in New Mexico--I remember his run in 1971---he beat Cougar II in The Big Cap and he won Hol Gold Cup with 134 lbs then retired....Cougar's five length win in The Woodward sealed the deal for Ack Ack's Horse Of The Year....would've liked to see Cougar II face him at Hol but Charlie said no...I wonder if he sired any Quarter Horses in NM?? By the way there was a prolific sprinter back then named Duck Dance who did sire (many) Quarters...also I was fortunate to see Radar Ahead in person, he was very fast and defeated Affirmed at Santa Anita...a New Mexico Bred!

re: Should They Have Scratched Peppers Pride?

Tiznowbaby — Sun, 07 Sep 2008 20:59:52 GMT

Jason, just playing devil's advocate here:

Didn't O'Brien owe it to the racing public to run Duke against New Approach in the Irish Champion Stakes? He scratched because the ground was too soft.

re: Should They Have Scratched Peppers Pride?

Brownfan — Fri, 05 Sep 2008 04:04:20 GMT

I'm sorry, Filly85, for the confusion on my part. I thought Big Brown's connections wanted to run in the BC for a long while now - especially with all the articles I've read. Even one of Jason's earlier blogs, "No More Challenges, Jess, Just Show Up,' posted 8/14, stated as much. Well, maybe they will race against one another, maybe they won't. I hope they do, and it will be an exciting race because as I stated earlier, I really like both horses. Regardless, you and I agree on one thing - it looks as though we're both happy that Pepper's trainer scratched her last weekend. They did right by their mare, and she can run for the record another day!

re: Should They Have Scratched Peppers Pride?

SundaySilenced — Fri, 05 Sep 2008 04:00:01 GMT

To all you nay sayers of Pepper who don't think she's done much to deserve a following, we need ANY and ALL positive stories for racing, and this one is positive, she's the best of her class, she has a loyal fan base, she makes money for the sport on all levels and makes for a great human interest story with her connections. Does it matter REALLY, I mean come on all you who proclaim to love ALL horses, does it matter really what level? She's selling out the cheapseats (to quote a famous movie) and selling newspapers, and here now she has her very own blog, and she's not worthy of repsect? I am glad there are many fans that are not owners.

re: Should They Have Scratched Peppers Pride?

Fleming585 — Fri, 05 Sep 2008 01:25:49 GMT

Having stood and watched the water run rail deep on the first turn and down the backstretch, I applaud their decision to scratch the horse. As an owner who did not have anything entered that weekend, I question the owners and trainers that did enter. The track workers did a fantastic job to get the track open again. If she would have been my horse, I would have scratched her a whole lot sooner.

re: Should They Have Scratched Peppers Pride?

J.D. — Fri, 05 Sep 2008 00:47:34 GMT

True champions face adversity and overcome it.

re: Should They Have Scratched Peppers Pride?

Filly85 — Fri, 05 Sep 2008 00:35:55 GMT

With all due respect Bigbrown fan, the connections of Curlin have said that they weren't going to run in the Classic all year. That is the only reason why I think Ivarone was going to put up the money if Curlin were to show up in the BCC...because he knew that they most likely weren't going to come. The connections of Curlin have announced their schedule to the public as soon as they have figured out which was the right route for their horse. Why would the connections of a horse that won the Dubai World Cup beating the best older dirt horses in the world by 7 lengths be ducking a 3yo that hasn't ran the numbers on the sheets to go with him? They don't want a match race with Big Brown because it would mess up their schedule, and they wanted to race in bigger races than the Clark Handicap (it doesn't attract the best horses most of the time and Curlin's connections have their sights set on the more prestigious Japan Cup). Big Brown's connections should have done the sporting thing and raced against Curlin in the JCGC like most other brillant 3 yos do. It should be Big Brown's job to go after the HOY since they have something to prove, not the other way around. I have a feeling that we might see Curlin in the Classic now anyway. I think Jess Jackson is feeling the pressure and is tired of the nonsense from BB's connections. If Curlin races in the Classic, I don't think that Big Brown is going to be his biggest competition. Some of the older horses that like the synthetic surface will be. And wouldn't it be interesting if Sherriffs threw Zenyatta into the Classic mix? She's good enough. Well, that's just wishful thinking though....

Sorry, didn't mean for my original post to turn into an off topic post!

re: Should They Have Scratched Peppers Pride?

Bradgm — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 22:25:31 GMT

Right Jason. However I know gamblers that see a horse get injured and are only concerned if it affected their bet, happy if it caused them to win. Callous, yes in MY opinion and probably yours. Wayne Lukas once said something to the affect of not having any problem attracting the degenerate gambler, it's the families and fans they want to attract and need to develop a strategy to market the product to them. IMHO the best way may be to show care and concern. I am all for risk taking but still leave it up to the folks paying the bills to determine risk vs reward. The way some people that have been mentioned many times on here act they don't care about attracting anyone to the game. The NFL, well most of the gamblers are in the background since we don't have windows to walk up to and bet. A lot of NFL fans are the working guy, grandma's and kids of the world (my Gran loves her home town Broncos), College BBall, I'm a huge fan of my Alma Mater, have only bet one time on them they pack the stands with students, alumni and local fans and are a BIG time team. I'm just saying that a big portion of the gamblers who pour a lot of money into horse racing just like to bet, it matters not if they bet on nameless faceless commodities. I'm not the norm, basically gamble on the horses only, but I'm a fan first and foremost.

re: Should They Have Scratched Peppers Pride?

Jason Shandler — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 21:21:18 GMT

Bradgm: Point taken. I just think too many people lose sight of the fact that there would be no racing on a large scale without the fans and gamblers. You brought up the NFL? How popular would it be without gamblers? Not nearly as much as it is now, is the answer.

re: Should They Have Scratched Peppers Pride?

Bradgm — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 21:15:16 GMT

Jason, I agree to a certain extent. However owners were racing horses against each other when there were no organized tracks. Bush tracks with illegal betting still exist. The my horse can beat your horse is what drove it from day 1. Horse owners also own race tracks. Gamblers are going to gamble and not many are as caring or atuned to the plight of the horse as Big, me and Jordy or some others. They are only betting on a product, much like the NFL etc. The owners first obligation should always be to the animal they own IMHO otherwise to me they would deserve all the hate that gets heaped on them when something happens.

re: Should They Have Scratched Peppers Pride?

Jason Shandler — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 20:20:03 GMT

OneChaser: Remember one thing - without the "general public and race fans" there would be no racetracks for owenrs to run their horses. Owners absolutely do have an obligation to the public. Im not saying in this case they do, but to say they dont in general I disagree with.

re: Should They Have Scratched Peppers Pride?

OneChaser — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 17:40:09 GMT

Owners and trainers don't owe anything to the general public and the race fans. Race fans and race tracks don't pay vet bills or hospital bills. Owners are responsible for managing the racehorses career in a manner that is best for the horse and the owner. No one should be pressured into racing a horse when it is not in the best interest of the owner and the horse. Races will come and go, a good horse may only come along one in a lifetime. Some people are quick to blame a jockey, owner, trainer and race track for an injured horse. Most of that is just plain ignorance..No matter what the connections of PP had decided to do, they would have been questioned for it anyway...unless they won. So if the track didn't suit them, sounds like they made the right choice.

re: Should They Have Scratched Peppers Pride?

Bradgm — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 17:21:13 GMT

Brownfan,

I think what brought the other two up originally was their ability to pick and choose the type of surface they run on and that should be extended to the mare.

On that subject do you really think BB would've run in the Clark?

34 others entered against BB at Monmouth, the BH article said if BB runs the purse will be doubled. If? what's up now? Also you may get your wish, Curlin's folks are entertaining the possibility of the Classic, depending on reports back from their other runners at SA. Not that I'm crazy about their connections, who also SAY just like RD SAYS they love their horse. Of course who knows who might jump up and beat em both, they didn't look like world beaters last out, BB even less than Curlin.

re: Should They Have Scratched Peppers Pride?

Linda — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 14:38:43 GMT

Way to go Joel Marr! It's good to know that trainers and owners do think more of the safety of their horses. Why do you think she has done so well? Hello! They have taken care of her and done what is best for her. They think more of her than they do of 'THE RECORD.' There is no time limit on her winning that next race, is there? She can go for another one later and still, when she wins it, she will have that record! Way to go! Smart move! Patience is a virtue!

re: Should They Have Scratched Peppers Pride?

Brownfan — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 01:50:43 GMT

Excuse me, Filly85, but it seems to me at this point that Curlin's connections are the ones dodging Big Brown and not vice versa. They have stated all along they intend to run in the BC and have their own game plan of how to get there. They have challenged Curlin's connections to put him in there, and failing that, have said (after a match race was nixed, and probably, rightfully so), that they could run in the Clark. Granted, Dutrow talks too much at times, but he loves his horse. I really love both horses - how does every discussion always come around to Brown and Curlin?

re: Should They Have Scratched Peppers Pride?

katsan — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 21:35:23 GMT

Brad and Wanda,

Also, remember ACK ACK? Greer Garson and Buddy Fogleson stood him in NM for a while at their Forked Lightning ranch (pronounced For-KED) up along the Pecos river North of Santa Fe. Beautiful place up there, the lightning is terrible though and flashes in forks or twins, thus the name. QH racing is king here in NM but the TB racing improves each and every year.

Brad I was going to mention to you about the name and initials but knew from your posts that you are from California. As I'm sure you saw when you were here everybody knows everybody else and we all have for decades, I knew Pierre's father from years ago and George's family as well. The Whited's now from Oaklawn, the Pletcher's etc. Quite a long history here.

re: Should They Have Scratched Peppers Pride?

Filly85 — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 20:25:27 GMT

I always respect your opinions Jason, but I have to respectfully disagree with you in this particular instance. I think the connections made the right decision in scratching the horse because the conditions of the track were very unfavorable. We aren't around Pepper's Pride either, so we don't know if the conditions of the track were the only reason why she was scratched. Although, some owners even refuse to race their horses on anything other than a fast/good track because of safety issues. And we all want racing to be as safe as possible and to see Pepper's Pride break the record. I think the connections should be applauded for not risking the mare unnecessarily and doing right by their horse despite the public scrutiny and pressure. The racing fans should understand because we will be able to enjoy watching her go for the record in time.

And while she might not be racing against the competition that Cigar and Citation did, any horse that has won 16 in a row deserves the utmost respect as you said. It is the goal of every trainer/owner to put their horses in spots that they can win. Most become overly ambitious only to ruin the horse's career. Look at the Triple Crown trail for instance. How many nice horses have never raced again or never been right again after going into the TC races that they had no shot of winning? Then look at the legendary Lost in the Fog whose connections did everything right by him, skipped the Derby, and were rewarded in a big way later on with a the Sprinter Eclipse Award (RIP Foggy and Aleo). The connections of Pepper's Pride have obviously done a wonderful job with her. In my opinion, connections like these are what racing needs because they put the horse first. In doing so, they have been rewarded with the chance of going for 17 straight.

Unsportsmanlike behavior in racing to me is ducking another horse like Big Brown is ducking Curlin (BB should race against Curlin in the JCGC) and Dutrow trash talking the horse of the world. Scratching a horse who is going for a major record because of unfavorable conditions that put the horse at a greater risk of injury is not unsportsmanlike behavior to me.

re: Should They Have Scratched Peppers Pride?

Bradgm — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 20:02:45 GMT

Wanda, I'm not sure if these folks on here read the racing form or even understand what they are reading, but PP's grandsire is Fappiano, there are a ton of horses there who have some heavy duty sires and grandsires, like Storm Cat, Storm Bird, Strike Gold, Mr. Prospector and on. Pierre Amestoy of Lobo farm in KY who consigned Irish Cherry mother of Daaher and Spun Sugar at the Jan Keeneland sale had a horse in the same race, Richard Brunacini brother of the late George Brunacini who bred Flower Alley, was the breeder of another horse in the race. Joel and Mr.Allen had another mare in the race and Gerald Marr had a filly in.(grandsires Storm Cat and Strike Gold) Favorite Trick 97 HOY as a 2y.o. and Saratoga Six(Gl winner) both stood there until killed in a barn fire.

I think this idea of 3rd tier may be a little off. If anything it's 2nd tier, especially at Sunland Park. Not a Saratoga or some of the elite but not many are.

I hear from Jordy that Joel's brother is named Brad, not him unfortunately JM seems like a good guy.