re: More On Eight Belles and Larry Jones

Lisa A. — Tue, 23 Sep 2008 22:45:17 GMT

Only someone who's suddenly, unexpectedly, and tragically lost a beloved horse from their barn can fully understand the pain of this type of loss, the second-guessing, and the guilty feelings that maybe there could have been something you could have done to prevent it, knowing full well that really, there was nothing that could have been done better. You can see how genuine Mr. Jones hurt is, how he mentions different things occurring "after it happened." This was Mr. Jones 9/11, his Hurricane Katrina, his Tsunami...an event forever to be remembered and relived. I'm saddened to see that Mr. Jones is retiring, but how do you get past a thing like that? I lost my mare on Labor Day of 2007, and I couldn't pass this Labor Day without remembering our frantic struggle to save her life (colic), and the suffering she endured before the vet ended her life. I encourage Mr. Jones to enjoy the arrival of the spring foals and look ahead to a future of hope and life, and return to these animals who need a caring touch like his.

re: More On Eight Belles and Larry Jones

Paint-Mare — Mon, 22 Sep 2008 19:53:13 GMT

Larry Jones is one of my favorite trainers, and simply for his faith in the Lord and the strength he has in times like these. He really does love his horses, and this year has been so tough on him.

re: More On Eight Belles and Larry Jones

JordanA — Sat, 13 Sep 2008 04:02:35 GMT

Wanda, I know what you are saying and I know I wouldn't normally disagree. But, I don't like being talked down to the way this person talked down to us. Just like certain other people who seem to be able to slam us whatever way they want and get away with it.

re: More On Eight Belles and Larry Jones

Wanda — Sat, 13 Sep 2008 00:34:14 GMT

JordanA: Hey homie what I was trying to say was that even though we don't agree he has been in the business in differint ways for many years. That alone should give him respect. Horseracing can be a life style forever. I have horsey friends that I love and respect but we can disagree on many things about the sport. I've seen alot of scary people on this blog but I don't think he is one of them.I don't know any of you people and you don't know me but we are all passionate about horseracing. Maybe he could have said what he said in a differint way but lets give the guy another chance.

re: More On Eight Belles and Larry Jones

JordanA — Fri, 12 Sep 2008 21:23:38 GMT

p.s. I once had a Dr. misdiagnose an illness and nearly died as a result, therefore based on Fishman's reasoning I should say all Dr's are quacks, money hungry and could care less what happens to their patients. I'm reasonable though and know that is not true.

re: More On Eight Belles and Larry Jones

JordanA — Fri, 12 Sep 2008 21:21:15 GMT

Wanda, I'm going to look at the catalog page, not sure on the mares.

You know though I do disagree with you on the 'Dr'. He intended disrespect, so he deserves the same disrespect right back at him. He treated all of us with a great deal of disdain, like we don't know anything. What makes him such an expert? His history with race horses? No greater than that of any # of people who have done the same as him with far greater success. Because he's a Dr of unknown capabilities or specialty? He gave a perspective from an Orthopedic point of reference, is he an Ortho? I seriously doubt it or he would have mentioned it. I'll listen to BIG's dad, he is one of the most respected Ortho's in the region. I agree with Jason it sounds like this guy has an axe to grind. Larry was talking more about how he has dealt with this personal tragedy in his life. I really can't think that someone who converses with God and treats his horses as well as Larry does would risk this filly's life and a huge chunk of change if he kept running her in the filly and mare races.

re: More On Eight Belles and Larry Jones

Wanda — Fri, 12 Sep 2008 16:46:40 GMT

Dr Fishman:Thank you for answering my question.Please don't take this as a personal insult sir, but we have had people on here with very little common sense. I respect your opinion on this subject and look forward to future debates on other subjects as well. Again no disrespect was intended.

JordanA: The HH's look better this year in terms of quality. Maybe better mares the second year?

re: More On Eight Belles and Larry Jones

merrywriter — Fri, 12 Sep 2008 14:42:28 GMT

Dear Mr. Jones and Company,

Truth rings a bell, and when you say you had no inkling there was anything wrong with Eight Belles before the Derby, or you don't drug horses, I whoelheartedly believe you.

After all the success with training you have had, it goes without saying you are a horse whisperer.

I also believe that you heard the comfort of God in your hour of need. This happened to me too, but as an admonishment and it set my fanny in the right direction.

Just know that 99.99% of the world admires and supports you. You can't forget the other minority because of the evil they can do. But your fans, yes YOUR fans, believe in your honesty, and positive contributions to horse racing. I hope we are enough to help sustain your faith in man. We know God sustains you in all else.

Merry

PS Personally, I like animals better - they're not so persnickety.

re: More On Eight Belles and Larry Jones

the wiz — Fri, 12 Sep 2008 14:36:12 GMT

Great piece Jason. This tragedy even though it was totally unpredictable has touched so many.

I for one felt almost guilty when I cashed my winning tickets that included Eight Belles. As a result I made a decision to "tithe" and donated 10% of the proceeds from any winning ticket I had that had her number which included both superfectas, multiple trifectas, and multiple exactas to a local riding club for kids (including handicapped). I'm not saying this for accolades but rather would like to point out that I am sure that there are others out there who have done something similar.

This whole episode that played out on the grandest stage of them all really was a wakeup call for many. Going forward many positive things will come from this horrible tragedy. What a great legacy for a great filly who gave her life doing what she loved.

re: More On Eight Belles and Larry Jones

JordanA — Thu, 11 Sep 2008 23:50:29 GMT

Wanda, not sure how 'good'he is. BIG said a doc by that name on NTRA but not sure it's him. You know how the naysayers are. BIG also said his Dad a retired Ortho said if he could figure out a way to predict catastrophic fractures in humans or equines he'd have enough to buy into the Legends deal in a month, course he probably has enough to do it right now, but would be gravy. He said even with MRI it may just detect a weakness or maybe not. I broke my leg and ankle and had just had an MRI on my knee and lower leg a year before, not one thing showed on there and it was a freak accident, not even much force. I've had a history of stress fractures so I've had xrays etc but they never can predict them. I know for a fact that most people xray them to make sure the knees are closed and sometimes xray the ankles.

Another HH went today for 90+. I need to start saving faster Legends are buying like crazy.

re: More On Eight Belles and Larry Jones

Dr. Robert Fishman — Thu, 11 Sep 2008 22:20:57 GMT

OK Wanda, I'll respond to your question:

I've been actively involved in thoroughbred racing and breeding for better than 47 yrs. I've ridden them (pleasure, and when younger, as an exercise rider), trained them, cared for them, managed them, you name it... I have owned them (stallions, mares, racehorses, etc.), bred many, advised many, purchased for clients, pedigree advisor and consultant to numerous farms, etc. I refrained from mentioning this in previous posts, because I view it as beside the point. Above all else, I simply care about their welfare. Yes, as much as I'm involved and passionate about thoroughbred racing and breeding, and have devoted much of my life to it, I'd gladly see it go, but for the fact that this would cause less thoroughbreds to exist. I've concluded that the only answer is to make both rearing and racing as safe for them as humanly possible-which is a far cry from what exists today. So, for now, only those who can afford to treat them in this manner should be involved in their ownership.

re: More On Eight Belles and Larry Jones

Wanda — Thu, 11 Sep 2008 17:07:25 GMT

JordanA: Thanks for the update on the HH's. I can't believe that the AP Trust thought that the AP Indy was worth more than 7 mill! I mean how much is too much.

I guess the good doctor didn't want to answer my question about his knowledge of racing. Too bad cause it would have answered some questions of my own.

re: More On Eight Belles and Larry Jones

Gin — Thu, 11 Sep 2008 13:08:31 GMT

Regarding the fractions comment, every track plays differently, holds speed differently and the track conditions can change on a daily basis, which in turn can variate the times. One track may seem slow, and another may seem lightning quick. Fractions are a useful tool when lookin at PP's, but there are other things to consider. The fact is that she wouldn't have ran, not to mention held, and finished, the Classic distance if she was outclassed, or unfit.

re: More On Eight Belles and Larry Jones

Candace — Thu, 11 Sep 2008 02:54:23 GMT

I attended the ceremony for 8 Belles came in from Chicago for it. Larry Jones spoke from his heart and all of us in the audience were honored to give him a standing ovation. Like the Jacksons he truly love 8 Belles as did all of us. She was a gift we could not keep for long but treasure her time with us.

re: More On Eight Belles and Larry Jones

ctgreyhound — Thu, 11 Sep 2008 02:32:54 GMT

It breaks my heart to see how cruel people can be with their accusations without the benefit of the facts. It is almost at epidemic proportions what people will say or do, and it seems the more hurtful the better. I commend Larry Jones for his conduct in the face of adversity. It is obvious that his faith has given him the strength to deal with his detractors. Eight Belles was on her way to being a living legend, and she blossomed under Larry Jones' care and training.

re: More On Eight Belles and Larry Jones

Johnny — Thu, 11 Sep 2008 01:21:32 GMT

I'm OK with fillies/mares going up against males as long as they're "seasoned" first against lesser males, gradually moving up against male class. Don't misunderstand, I'm not second-guessing Larry Jones for running Eight Belles in the Derby, because I'm not. This is just me and how I'd be comfortable doing it.

People here have mentioned some very illustrious females, recently racing or from the past. Unless I missed her name somewhere on this blog, I'm disappointed that the lady who recently died hasn't been mentioned.

Genuine Risk, bless her heart, was the second filly to win the Kentucky Derby, and the greatest filly ever to run in the Triple Crown.

re: More On Eight Belles and Larry Jones

BIGHORSEFAN — Wed, 10 Sep 2008 23:09:43 GMT

Right LDP,

Winning colors after the mugging she took against Forty Niner. Who could forget Serena's Song who led early in the Derby then came back to win the Black Eyed Susan and have a stellar career. She wasn't even an imposing physical specimen either.

re: More On Eight Belles and Larry Jones

Bradgm — Wed, 10 Sep 2008 22:30:32 GMT

BMC, for every filly you name, you could name 10 colts. That argument doesn't hold water. It has been hashed and rehashed. Trainers, Veterinarians etc have all weighed in on that and have said if the filly is the right type, they can run against the colts. Search the PETA board and move on to another negativity that hasn't already been done to death.

re: More On Eight Belles and Larry Jones

LDP — Wed, 10 Sep 2008 21:02:55 GMT

What about the other two BMC racing? What about Regret and Winning colors. Also as far as i know if you want to play still racing and winning game, Dreaming of Anna did race the boys and is still racing and doing rather well so obviously not all fillies are affected by racing against the boys. Also RR retired due to a fracture sustained in her last race. Even after she first sustained the fracture she was not retired. They brought her back into taining where she agrivated her leg injury then it was decided to retire her. It was not the Belmont that caused the injury if you want to play that game. RR was training quite well after being given a good rest. Then when she raced she took a bad step which resulted in a small hairline fracture, so it was not racing against colts in anyway that hurt her. Now, if you wish a rebuttal go right ahead, but either way, at least on RR your reasoning is faulty.

re: More On Eight Belles and Larry Jones

BMC Racing — Wed, 10 Sep 2008 19:57:28 GMT

LDP / Wanda,

Rags to Riches was never the same after that race and was retired soon after. Her effort in the Belmont cost her another year of competing against the fillies and mares. She could have been one of the best F&M ever!. Last I checked Curlin is still running and winning races.

re: More On Eight Belles and Larry Jones

LDP — Wed, 10 Sep 2008 19:31:25 GMT

BMC Racing,

Are you forgeting Rags to Riches who won the Belmont, against the o mighty Curlin. Also Dreaming of Anna ran against and beat the boys as a two year old. What about winning colors and regret, both fillies, both against the colts at 11/4, and both won. Your comment about fillies should not race colt is not sound. Just because a couple of fillies broke down while racing colts doesn't mean they shouldn't race them. Colts break down against colts, Yet there is no out cry on that. Also Ruffian was against another speed ball in Foolish Pleasure, and they were going all out from the git go, which is way more stress than normal, for any horse. Most fillies or colts don't have to deal with that kind of stress. Eight Bells ran in the Derby against 20 colts, which again, most normally horses don't have to do

re: More On Eight Belles and Larry Jones

JordanA — Wed, 10 Sep 2008 17:35:03 GMT

Jason, You know, just once it'd be nice to come on and read a story that's inspirational from a personal standpoint and not have to read the negativity of the people who get off on that kind of hate mongering.

Wanda,

One of your Harlan's Holiday yearlings just sold for 310 grand at Keeneland. Legends (Baffert, Lukas and Zito) got it. They are gathering up some great ones a Storm Cat/ Spain on day 1 I think. Aa soon as I get my 3 million sent to them I'm in. Only 2.7 mil more to save and I'm there.

re: More On Eight Belles and Larry Jones

Bradgm — Wed, 10 Sep 2008 17:04:32 GMT

Oh and Katie, I think it was the DR who started the attack and then invited everyone to "Now the rest of you can weigh in with your anger, and uninformed opinions". If that wasn't negative and an attack on a person's judgement I'll eat your hat. He wanted to stir up trouble and bring negativity to this article where it had no useful purpose. He attacked the judgement, credibility and honesty of Larry Jones and then threw down on the rest of us that he was the ultimate judge, jury and expert and we are the uniformed idiots of the world. Well guess what, some of us on here are just as, or more highly educated, intelligent and informed. His kind thrives on being a naysayer, he has an agenda and it's right out front not even necessary to read between the lines to get it.

re: More On Eight Belles and Larry Jones

Johnny — Wed, 10 Sep 2008 16:58:55 GMT

R. Fishman,

I think Larry Jones is as impeccable and as outstanding a trainer as they come. Have you ever walked a mile in the shoes of a guy like Larry?

You've been quite outspoken on this blog. What is your background?

1) What kind of Doctor are you? Are you a vet?

2) How much experience have you had working with horses?

3) Have you ever treated, owned, bred, trained, or ridden a Thoroughbred?

4) Have you ever had to make decisions or a determination about a horse's care, soundness, race career, or life?

5) How involved are you in Thoroughbred racing?

re: More On Eight Belles and Larry Jones

BIGHORSEFAN — Wed, 10 Sep 2008 16:54:04 GMT

BMC fan,

Well considering the Juvenile Fillies usually beat the boys time wise we should abolish that race. Considering any of them can get hurt at any time, he** we should just abolish it all like the uninformed PETA attackers seem to want. I've tried to get a hold of my Orthopedist Dad to ask his opinion on detecting the possibility of a fracture, no luck yet. But can you imagine how cost prohibitive it would be to examine each and every runner by MRI (CT is less definitve according to my CT/MRI tech buddy) and then just a misstep to a perfectly sound by MRI individual proved catastrophic, who would you all blame then?

Fishman, I'm reminded of Tyson Gay, a supremely fit world class runner in peak condition, and his hamstring injury in the Olympic rials. He had every training regimen and exam possible and he still 'broke down'. I know enough about my Dad's practice to know that it's almost impossible to predict these types of injuries whether human or equine. Problem is they're often fatal in equines and aren't in humans. If the opposite was true I might challenge you to a match race if you passed your MRI, but then since they really don't predict the potential for future injury per my friend, you might break down.