Win and You're In - Derby Style

re: Win and You're In - Derby Style

katsan — Sun, 28 Sep 2008 08:11:18 GMT

Matthew,

I understand what you were saying. That was the comparison I was making. We train at the home of the QH Triple Crown so am very aware of how it all works. The trials are what makes it even more difficult to win the QH TC. One bad race in the trials and it's all over, BUT it's the SAME EXACT SHOT for ALL of the horses in that Futurity/Derby Trial. The BC and C of C have one thing in common, MULTIPLE WIN And YOU ARE IN races. Not just one race for one group of horses, that is only the Derby that is doing it that way, THAT is the complaint we all seem to have. Well most of us anyway.

I'm curious to see the conditions of the race. Like somebody asked, will any horse be allowed to ship over and run?

re: Win and You're In - Derby Style

Matthew W — Sun, 28 Sep 2008 00:41:28 GMT

Katsan The Champion Of Champions is their BC AND THEY DO have one/two trials (Z Wayne Griffith Trials) for Champions race.. to insure they have ALL the contenders....I was only saying thats the way they need to think with these "win & in" races--a good idea!

re: Win and You're In - Derby Style

Atthebarn2 — Sat, 27 Sep 2008 15:52:09 GMT

Wanda, I just have a quick moment. But I wanted to take the time to respond to you.

I don't think I or any of the rest of the people who disagree with this one race deal said we want it to be U.S. horses only, never read that anywhere. We just don't like a special race being prefabricated for one group, no matter who that group is. America's race? well yes it is, just like the 2000 Guineas is Englands race, the Queens Plate is Canada's race, the Japan cup is Japans race, the Arc is France's race etc that is a simple fact. We never said don't let them qualify for the Derby, not once. But therin lies the rub. Running in one race doesn't qualify a colt unless the race is worth a heck of a lot more than this one is and MOST of the time those big purses draw big horses. Yes maybe some of the horses don't belong in the Derby, but who are we to dash the dreams of these folks who qualify their colts/fillies the same way as everybody else. In fact some of those that didn't belong, jumped up and won the race or performed better than some of the superstars. This derby dream is what gets a lot of folks into racing to begin with, soon enough a lot of people realize it's just a dream.

The other thing that's kind of lost here is the fact that CDI is cutting stakes purses and races at Churchill Downs, Calder etc. They say it's because of lost revenue over the wagering deal. Yet they have 250,000 to create this kind of a race? I may be getting senile and cantakerous in my old age and I may be in the minority here but that is another thing about this race that rubs me the wrong way.

American pride, absolutely (most of the time anyway). I have to tell you Wanda, from the first time I read one of your comments I had no doubt that you were a Canadian and that you were proud as punch of that. Neve did call you out on that or say it was wrong because that is as it should be.

re: Win and You're In - Derby Style

Bradgm — Sat, 27 Sep 2008 15:30:55 GMT

Wanda, just like you call us your

'homies' we think of you the same way. I think to a person we have said every horse in the entire world is welcome as long as it's the same for everyone. As far as it being America's race, yes it is that, just like the Queens Plate is Canada's race and the first in your Triple Crown. Also, just like you have pride in the Canadian horses, we have that same pride. Nobody has knocked YOU for that.

I think what we are all trying to say here is that we don't care WHO runs in the race. We've never said it should be limited to American horses, just that EVERY HORSE in the race should qualify the same way (graded earnings) or have the same opportunity to qualify (win and you're in). With no Win and You're In races in North America American and Canadian horses both have to run their guts out to try and qualify, especially if they have a couple of bad races and may be really good horses. Have WAYI races in NA too, then go down the earnings list, don't just run one race for Euros for a purse that might not have even qualified on earnings last year.

Yes we do have a sense of American pride, just like you have a sense of Canadian pride.

re: Win and You're In - Derby Style

Wanda — Sat, 27 Sep 2008 00:58:32 GMT

Sorry for not responding sooner You guys are right, this topic caught me on a bad day however... Go back and read your comments, our race, American horses etc. It came across like you don't want to see any outside horses in the race. It is only one horse in a field of 20. 5 of those don't belong in any year they run it. If some of those on the "bubble" horses ran in other 3 year old stakes everybody would be better served. It's an experiment cut them some slack. If it doesn't work oh well. I got on the fight cause up north we take a more relaxed view, it's not in your face type of thing over your birthplace. So Atthebarn,Jordan,Brad,Whatamidoing and Monica sorry for being somewhat impolite but hey I AM CANADIAN eh!

re: Win and You're In - Derby Style

Whatamidoing — Fri, 26 Sep 2008 13:08:46 GMT

Yes I've seen that theory floating around for a little while, mirrors another blogger, McBride, the media director of Del Mar and a few others. I also think maybe the committee needs to look more closely at what they actually grade. Theories are fine, I just know I wouldn't want their job. To me it still comes down to the bottom line, it's preferential treatment to create a special race. But that's nothing new.

re: Win and You're In - Derby Style

Clay — Fri, 26 Sep 2008 13:04:17 GMT

Jason, if there was more weight toward grade ones than grade threes the fans would not get to see the finest 3 year olds in the country. For years the the graded stakes commitee has disrespected other tracks other than those on the east and west coasts. Oaklawn has produced great colts over the years but they still insist on giving our derby a grade 2 ranking. The top tier horses will flee the midwest and go to the coasts and leave our fans with nothing to look forward to.

re: Win and You're In - Derby Style

da3hoss — Fri, 26 Sep 2008 11:43:28 GMT

JS, why tweak it for North American based horses when the European horse(s) (there will be more, I'm betting) will only have to win one low-level race to "earn" a guaranteed spot? Let's just do it lottery style, 20 "Win & In" races, period. Pull the races out of a hat, who cares what they are.

re: Win and You're In - Derby Style

Jason Shandler — Fri, 26 Sep 2008 02:56:38 GMT

If I had a say, the entire graded stakes qualifications would be tweaked. The 2-year-old races would not carry as much as weight as the 3-year-old races and grade I's would carry more weight than grade III's.

re: Win and You're In - Derby Style

Whatamidoing — Fri, 26 Sep 2008 02:47:07 GMT

Jason, also as far as the Delta Downs race, it was graded, maybe you should take that up with the Graded Stakes Committee.

re: Win and You're In - Derby Style

Atthebarn2 — Fri, 26 Sep 2008 02:31:23 GMT

Oh what the heck, let's just have Win and You're in races in every country that has horse racing, other than North America. We outsource everything else, send our money out of the Country, why not this too. Although the purse might dwindle and the crowd might not be more than 10,000 who came to see these other horses run. Jason as far a giving it a shot, how many times have we done that with things and it's blown up in our face because it isn't well thought out. You telling me that CDI saying they didn't want to host the Breeders Cup was a well thought out process, well then again maybe so, a little arm twisting. The lawsuit, well we won't talk about that. Set the conditions of the race tough enough so the good horses will get in or you may just get a horse that makes Z Humor look like Secretariat.

re: Win and You're In - Derby Style

Whatamidoing — Fri, 26 Sep 2008 02:17:03 GMT

Well you just never know who's in the top 20, now do you?

In years past a few of my colleagues squeaked in and made a good accounting. I guess I'll just be a homer and reiterate, every horse that wants to enter should have the opportunity, but an equal opportunity not this kind. As far as the slot inflated purse, if they let a win and you're in run, I guarantee a lot of guys with a better than average colt/filly will go to that race to try and save wear and tear.

re: Win and You're In - Derby Style

JordanA — Fri, 26 Sep 2008 02:07:57 GMT

Yo Jason, I think what the guy is saying is that without knowing who's interested, people on here are saying it will be a great horse coming over and that may not be true. What is true is the Slot inflated purses at Oaklawn gave us some semi decent horses, let see, Smarty Jones, Afleet Alex and that one horse, oh right CURLIN. Let em come from England or wherever, just let em come fair and square. Like a bunch of trainers said it's not just the 3 races in the triple crown series that makes it so tough, it's when you add the preps leading up to it that really wears them out, if that's the case then it's advantage England. As for Z Humor, well Mott trained Zayat owned so that made some guys look twice. Just because Aidan O trains them doesn't mean they're going to be his A team horse or that they'll pan out either. Wasn't it the Dubai guys who replicated Churchill Downs and guaranteed a win within a certain amount of time doing it their way? Well just because a horse wins a win and You're in doesn't necessarily make them any better than the 20th horse from here. Being a true Graded stakes winner might because the level of competition is higher in most of the graded races whatever Continent they're run in.

Oh and would O'Brien get to bring his 2nd place finisher? I don't think we have a rule about rabbits, but we probably do have one about impeding other horses to assist yours to win, maybe not though.

re: Win and You're In - Derby Style

Slew.em.All — Fri, 26 Sep 2008 02:07:36 GMT

Whatamidoing;

I'm saying he's obviously succumbed to the pressures' that be,and he needs a break before he Loses it.Like u stated: not everyone can handle certain situations..bless him

Z Humor? good one Jas..

I think the Europeans will "Only" point their "dirt bred" horses for the Derby,and keep their more Valuable/Classier horses on Turf for their own Triple Crown races.

Those are WAY more important to them than Ours'..but,if they show-up and impress with their 2nd/3rd string horses,you will see droves of em' prepping here for the Derby in the future.

re: Win and You're In - Derby Style

Jason Shandler — Fri, 26 Sep 2008 01:57:45 GMT

WhatamIdoing: Obviously, Im not talking about the Florida or Arkansas Derby. They are established and important prep races. In my example, I was referring to the Delta Downs race that is worth $1 million. Now, is the winner of that race any more deserving than the European race winner? Not in my opinion. Point is, let's give this a fair shake. Let's see what happens this year before we tear it apart. We might get a very good horse that comes over and adds intrigue to the Derby. If you're not of the top 19, you have no reason to complain anyway.

re: Win and You're In - Derby Style

Whatamidoing — Fri, 26 Sep 2008 01:46:38 GMT

Jason,

That is the question that's been asked quite a few times, WHO is interested in coming. Maybe the purses are inflated, do you think that's the case with the Arkansas or Florida Derby winner? Seems to me that the Arkansas Derby has provided us with a few KY Derby winners. O'Brien may have said that, fine. He's probably one who might give it a shot but like a lot of us on here are saying, why can't they count their Graded stakes over there just like they do here O'Brien sure has the guns to do that. WHY did they have to create a special race to qualify for it. They don't have that here so anybody who WANTS to get in has to go to the GRADED races to try and earn enough to make it in. In fact the race that's probably the best purse that's slot inflated is the Winstar at Sunland Park and it doesn't count because it's not a graded stakes race. Are you saying that every horse that qualifies on earnings only did so because they ran in a race with an inflated purse? I seem to remember early on a lot of people touting Z Humor. It just seems to me, and obviously others that hold a different opinion than you that it's not a level playing field to have one set of rules for one horse and one for the others. Course, nobody ever said life was fair and from the looks of things on here I would say the majority fan interest would probably be people pulling for the foreign invader who was given a red carpet entry into the race, to get a royal butt whipping.

I also think if they're going to go through with this then it should be a case where our horses have a chance to win and in for their most premier race as well as our own. Don't see them offering that or did I miss it?

re: Win and You're In - Derby Style

Jason Shandler — Fri, 26 Sep 2008 01:15:38 GMT

WhatamIdoing: Cream of the crop? There are 6-8 horses every year that don't belong in the Derby. Just because a horse wins a slots-infused race with a big purse as a 2-year-old makes them better than the European winner? Sorry. Don't buy it. Leading trainers like Aidan O'Brien have already stated they have interest in going to the Derby and they will start sending very good horses to the Kempton Park race. What a crying shame if a stellar horse like Z Humor gets knocked out next year by a European horse! I don't think the public will ever forgive CD.

re: Win and You're In - Derby Style

Whatamidoing — Fri, 26 Sep 2008 00:30:34 GMT

Slew

Sorry if I misunderstood. Seemed to me that you were questioning the validity of the whole deal, sort of intimating that Larry has lost it. Your wording definitely left me with that impression.

I really think it's not something he particularly wants to do, just beyond his scope of comprehension. Note he left open a return, probably after the hate dies down some.

As far as the win and you're in race, I have to agree with my fellow trainer, Atthebarn and some of the others. What makes anybody on here think the cream of the crop over there will try to get to the Derby and what makes anybody think that the winner will even come here. The win and you're in for the Breeders Cup has seen a lot of those just bypass the race.

re: Win and You're In - Derby Style

BIGHORSEFAN — Thu, 25 Sep 2008 21:25:31 GMT

Everyone that supports this race talks about the better quality of horses coming from England. Yet the Brit that was an early poster seems to think that race won't draw quality and I think I would agree, so do a lot of others on here who are probably more 'in the know' than most of us. Somebody ought to do a poll and see which trainers over there are actually contemplating the race. I know it's early but you can bet a lot of US trainers are looking to see if they have a potential Derby horse amongst their 2 year olds.

re: Win and You're In - Derby Style

Slew.em.All — Thu, 25 Sep 2008 21:16:09 GMT

Whatamidoing;

Exactly..that's why I said he NEEDS a well deserved rest.

re: Win and You're In - Derby Style

katsan — Thu, 25 Sep 2008 20:28:56 GMT

Matthew,

The Champions race is more like the BC. The QH Derby's and the Futurities ALL have trials and you get into the race based strictly on time. That is a huge variance when you figure that the track conditions change when you have 12-20 trials.

I think graded earnings is the fair way to go for the KY Derby. Otherwise open up everything as a win and you're in. Let the U.S. horses go to England and run in that race too. Have several win and in races then go to graded earnings for the rest of the starters, don't make it win for a one group and run your backside off to qualify otherwise.

re: Win and You're In - Derby Style

slyder — Thu, 25 Sep 2008 20:18:36 GMT

Bring em on!! The better the competition the better the race. Anything that promotes better competition is a good thing in my book. Every year it seems nearly 1/2 to 3/4ths of the field are throw outs and in this years Derby it was even more. I applaud the effort to make the race even better.

re: Win and You're In - Derby Style

jed_dog — Thu, 25 Sep 2008 19:42:09 GMT

I agree with you Jason that taking the 20th spot is not going to hurt anyone. In fact it's going to save somebody some money over here. I think it will take a couple of years to see if it works. Say the winner of the Euro race makes it here for the Derby. If the horse finishes well, I think it will become a bigger race over there. And and maybe they will do something similar in Japan for the 19th spot. If the horse finishes poorly the whole thing will go away. btw, anybody know the conditions of the race over there, is it colts and filly's or just colts?

re: Win and You're In - Derby Style

Bradgm — Thu, 25 Sep 2008 17:44:23 GMT

Atthebarn, you're right it is Hong Kong. also I forgot about those Juvy turf and the mile qualifiers on the 27th.

I think MOST of us are agreed that we want the best horses in the Derby, whether they're American, Canadian, Venezuelan, Chinese, Japanese, or whatever. However, I think MOST of us want the horses to qualify in the same manner, by Graded stakes earnings. That's not unreasonable.

Bryce, I don't know what more reasonable FACTS you can ask for considering this is an unprecedented situation. What FACTS do we have available, other than the FACT that all the horses who run in the Derby were qualified on earnings if there were more than 20 wanting to get in.

You bring up horses that no one who is a fan/student of racing (that are obviously the ones commenting here), have forgotten. I'm sure folks like Atthebarn could probably tell you more about Derby horses and winners than you could ever think of. Sorry to bring up age but he's probably seen 50 or so of them right? I know he said way back that his mother was 81 (step mother) and his dad was 88 (actually told me he's 90)but he's been around it for quite a while. I personally have read, studied or watched tapes of those races I wasn't old enough to see or remember. No one brought up the Cannonero II race, he didn't win a joke of a race then come over here. We were all just giving our opinions, You chose to try and turn it into a debate with your comment about the other posters and bringing up something that has no relevance to a Win and You're IN race. There's change for a reason and then change just for the sake of change that's why I asked the original questions of Jason about how much does the English public really care about the Kentucky Derby, heck a bunch of Americans don't care about racing at all, CDI might want to work on USA interest before they go global.

re: Win and You're In - Derby Style

Atthebarn2 — Thu, 25 Sep 2008 16:34:18 GMT

Here I am breaking my own rule again but, is this all for nothing? I think a lot of people are forgetting a little race in England called the 2000 Guineas, usually run the same day as the Kentucky Derby and the first race of the English Triple Crown. My guess is any 3 year old worth their salt will shoot for that and they have their Derby Preps as well. Then the Epsom Derby the first weekend in June, and the St Leger Stakes in September. Maybe Pimlico should sponsor a win and you're in for the Preakness, that's the only American Triple Crown race that isn't at the same time as an English TC race. It's been longer since a horse won their TC (1970 Nijinsky). I think that would mean more to the class of horse we'd like to see them send to the KY Derby.

All Countries are Nationalistic to some degree. I seem to remember my history and England colonized pretty much anything they could get their hands on. Partly to gain access to resources they don't have and to get rid of their undesirables (like all of us).

If someone decides to take a shot at the Derby win/in they better decide before the January deadline and definitely before the March deadline or they'll be paying a 200g supplemental fee. Add to that 50g's to pass the entry box and actually run, the 20g's (guessing at this one) to ship here and if they don't have a legitimate shot at winning it won't happen. Now if Coolmore decides to do it then the money is no real issue, but, chances are they'd be shooting at the big purses in the preps here if they felt they had a Derby horse.

As far as the BC win/in, they expanded it to Sha Tin in Hong Kong and now 3 races at Ascot this weekend for the Turf races.

As that English guy Shakespeare's play, this seems to be Much Ado About Nothing.

Even as much as I personally agree that qualifications should be based on a level playing field for everyone based on earnings in Graded stakes, whether here, there or anywhere. Or an equivalent win and you're in here.

Miss Wanda, North American racing is just that and Canada is and always will be a part of that.