Getting a Handle on the Pro-Ride

re: Getting a Handle on the Pro-Ride

Bradgm — Mon, 27 Oct 2008 23:40:59 GMT

MikeM, just meeting a trainer doesn't mean you know anything about their training methodology. I've met, spent time and hung out with some of the REAL TOP trainers in the World and they, unlike an owner who isn't involved in the day to day care of a horse DO know what they're doing. Get real Mike, if they were clueless they wouldn't be the top trainers in the world, they'd be flashes in the pan and most of the REALLY big trainers have been around for YEARS. And don't say it's because they have owners with deep pockets because many of them have sustained success over 10-50 years, even if they do have the occasional clunker it happens all the time in all kinds of sports. NOw if YOUR trainer, who is probably the only one you would be qualified to judge since that isn't based on MEETING somebody, then shame on you for not being astute enough to hire a good trainer. NO this isn't a blog for trainers, I don't think that was ever what was said. But, just like I don't want a Chiropractor doing spinal surgery on me, I wuuldn't want a horse owner with no practical experience, a non horseman, or an event rider telling me how or training my RACE horse. Get my drift, the Chiro knows just enough to be dangerous, so does a person who never actually trained, fed, worked or managed a horse.

re: Getting a Handle on the Pro-Ride

MikeM — Mon, 27 Oct 2008 14:43:24 GMT

Wanda I didn't know this blog was only for horse trainers. As an owner of race horses that race mostly on the NY circuit I have had the opportunity to meet many of the top trainers in the world. I can tell you that some of them don't know much more than the owners they train for and most would agree that a good horse is dangerous in anyones hands. I respect your knowledge and experience but please drop the condescending attitude and maybe you could teach a "Horse Training 101" class.

re: Getting a Handle on the Pro-Ride

Joan Cowin — Fri, 24 Oct 2008 18:53:07 GMT

JordanA and Katsan:

You both are right and I am wrong. Sorry Katsan if your feelings were hurt.

re: Getting a Handle on the Pro-Ride

JordanA — Fri, 24 Oct 2008 14:35:28 GMT

Slew, this discussion was about surface, and personal feelings do play into any discussion. I mentioned someone's personal reference when another poster brought it to the personal level and trivialized the discussion with a 'turn a frown into a smile'. People come on for different reasons. To discuss issues, but also for fun and to learn new things but not to demean others. And if it wasn't infused with a little personality and personal stuff it would just be all of us handicappers blabbing about our picks, which you could get that from the handicapping columns and with dry statitistical info.

re: Getting a Handle on the Pro-Ride

JordanA — Fri, 24 Oct 2008 12:39:03 GMT

Joan, We ARE nice people, but if you've read the board in the past you know that the personal attacks on people get out of hand. Kat seemed to me to be presenting an opposing point of view about why she doesnt' like the synthetics and not once did I read her attack you personally. YOU were the one who got sarcastic and tried to trivialize what is obviously important to those in the industry and has been discussed over and over again on the BH by Jason, Steve etc.

"Well, if the horses mentality is like yours, I guess you cant teach an old dog new tricks.

Hey, if your livelihood depends on it, then maybe you can stop betting on the horses and become rich submitting your ideas to manufacturers for what YOU think is best for the industry

Joan Cowin 22 Oct 2008 2:39 PM "

Katsan:

Why dont ya turn that frown upside down.... :)

Joan Cowin 23 Oct 2008 1:35 PM

Also, she, and a bunch of other horsemen are correct, us handicappers don't like to guess about an uncertain surface when we're spending our hard earned money and by the time they get it figured out we may not have any left. I suffered through the debacle of Del Mar and Santa Anita last year and ended up betting on the tracks back East.

Now I'm finishing up my picks and getting ready to go to the BC, that's where the fun and excitement are. I'm excited just like I've been for all the others I've attended since I was young, even if it is Pro-ride,

re: Getting a Handle on the Pro-Ride

Slew.em.All — Fri, 24 Oct 2008 04:51:16 GMT

I also thought this was the IT forum to discuss the Horse racing Industry as a whole,and NOT a place to chat-about "personal" stuff..Opinions are like As$#%&@%,everybody has one,but they all seem to differ....Peace.

re: Getting a Handle on the Pro-Ride

Joan Cowin — Thu, 23 Oct 2008 23:24:10 GMT

Jordan A and Katsan:

I came into this forum to talk about horses and the industry. I am NOT liking the fact that people cannot have opinions without being HUNG for them.

Katsan you obviously dont like the synthetics and I dont have a problem with them. We differ on opinions and what more do you want me to say but that.

JordanA I never asked for you or the readers to place credence ANYWHERE.

Geez...........

I think I will start to look for forums with nicer people.

re: Getting a Handle on the Pro-Ride

JordanA — Thu, 23 Oct 2008 20:44:01 GMT

Joan, Why don't you NOT trivialize what someone who is ACTUALLY in the industry is saying.

Also, in the past month Kat has disclosed some about her personal tragedies to those of us who have gotten to know her on here. My guess is that even YOU wouldn't be able to smile through that, plus a constant attack on your livelihood. She said a long time ago that her husband is a current trainer. Yet you expect us to place credence on your second hand info about someone who's no longer here to agree or dispute?

re: Getting a Handle on the Pro-Ride

Joan Cowin — Thu, 23 Oct 2008 17:35:08 GMT

Katsan:

Why dont ya turn that frown upside down.... :)

I disagree PERIOD.

re: Getting a Handle on the Pro-Ride

katsan — Thu, 23 Oct 2008 06:11:39 GMT

Joan,

I DON'T bet much at all. We TRAIN, breed and OWN the suckers. Many trainers are skeptical of the new surfaces. Even the biggest of them. Nick said he believes dirt is the surface of choice and it can be made safe. There were ZERO breakdowns at Saratoga this summer as opposed to 12 or so at Del Mar.

Wayne said it's a handicappers nightmare, the Euro's probably have an advantage and it probably won't be formful at SA. I'm not saying I'm opposed to change. I am just not big on change for the sake of change and hey let's just keep trying things and maybe we'll get it right. Who cares if it screws up racing and turns off the handicappers and gamblers who support the industry with their hard earned money.

Whoever your Dad was, I seriously doubt he would have approved of fixing the surface by trial and error.

People are already bi**ing and moaning about how hard it is to bet or pick horses when they run on synthetics, they're doing the same about how horses are bred for speed and not endurance, now we're going to have to breed them for synthetics, pro-ride, Tapeta etc etc. Then when it all falls apart and they decide to either go back to strictly dirt or one particular type of surface we have all these 'inferior' bred horses I've been reading about on these blogs for months.

(Correction to my first post, synthetics are presenting a whole different set of problems for horses with soft tissue injuries, not Turf)

re: Getting a Handle on the Pro-Ride

KatintheHat — Thu, 23 Oct 2008 04:03:51 GMT

Ahh, LDP, you beat me to mentioning the 2007 Dubai World Cup. Premium Tap put up a pretty hard fight in upper stretch against Invasor, who gained control in the final furlong. Premium Tap pushed Invasor to a 1.59.97 time (second fastest WC time 1.59.5 being the fastest) while Curlin cruised home in a 7+ length margin in 2.00.15. If Curlin had been pushed to the wire, he would have easily beat Invasor's time and possibly more. . .

re: Getting a Handle on the Pro-Ride

LDP — Wed, 22 Oct 2008 21:08:23 GMT

Dray,

If you think invasor is so great, i don't know if you do but if you do you have to consider the horse that ran second to him in the World cup, and won many of his races leading up to the 08 world cup good. Also When i say swapped places with RR i meant during the first stages of the race, which would've given Curlin the jump on him, cause if you didn't notice curlin was what three four lengths behind red rocks. Which gave him a huge disadvantage. Also since when is 59 and one for five furlongs slow. O right it's not. Also 49 and 3 to me is average, 51 and above is slow. Lastly in the JCGC did you not notice all RA did was throw crosses at curlin, no wonder he didn't win by 50. So please come down off your high horse and talk like and normal civilized person.

re: Getting a Handle on the Pro-Ride

Joan Cowin — Wed, 22 Oct 2008 18:39:33 GMT

Katsan:

My comparison with the autos was to show you that we can make progress on things to make them better with time.......

So your telling me that these horses can not and will not learn to run on these synthetics because it cannot be found in the horses environment? Well, if the horses mentality is like yours, I guess you cant teach an old dog new tricks.

Hey, if your livelihood depends on it, then maybe you can stop betting on the horses and become rich submitting your ideas to manufacturers for what YOU think is best for the industry.

re: Getting a Handle on the Pro-Ride

slyder — Wed, 22 Oct 2008 18:00:33 GMT

I finally found what I've been looking for!!!! But first my thoughts on the Breeders Cup.

Like many others I despise a fake track but that hasn't dampened the enthusiasm for this years renewal. I'm going to sit back, sip a few morgan n cokes and enjoy two days of big time racing. I'm especially waiting to watch Goldikava on the grass. Expecting nothing less than a huge effort here.

Enjoy the spectacle of racing at its best!!

re: Getting a Handle on the Pro-Ride

Tiznowbaby — Wed, 22 Oct 2008 17:52:20 GMT

This could be a sign of the apocalypse, but I sort of agree with Dray. Sort of. I think Curlin's vulnerable here. Long campaign, travels to get here, unknown surface. He hasn't looked fabulous in his last races, but he's rarely the brilliant looking sort anyway. He does just kind of grind everyone in the dust. I won't fault him for whom he ran against, because he ran in open company in what are traditionally quite prestigious races. If he doesn't win, he hits the board though.

re: Getting a Handle on the Pro-Ride

Karen in Texas — Wed, 22 Oct 2008 17:52:00 GMT

JordanA and LDP, Thanks for clarifying the work time for Curlin!

re: Getting a Handle on the Pro-Ride

Wanda — Wed, 22 Oct 2008 17:38:38 GMT

I just saw a comment on here about working Curlin faster because he's not going to be quick enough. I'm sorry but that has to be the most uneducated thing I've read on here in a long time. You show your ignorance of how a racehorse is trained and maintained by that statement.

If you are high on the Euro's you should know that they do NOT work their horses quick per say. They can all get beat on any given day but trust me,that work will not make or break him.

I suggest you take a course on Horse Training 101 and then be able to make comments about it.

re: Getting a Handle on the Pro-Ride

Get Real — Wed, 22 Oct 2008 17:28:39 GMT

For all those naysayers that think Curlin's last races weren't that great, consider the fact that Eoin Harty (who trains Past the Point, 2nd to Curlin in the Woodward), Harty told Scott Hazelton on Pursuit of the Cup that PTP was like a zombie horse in the test barn, head down, after running the race of his life to come in second, and Curlin was bouncing around like he was ready to run again. He's a more professional horse now, who does what he has to, to save his best for the big dance.

re: Getting a Handle on the Pro-Ride

MikeM — Wed, 22 Oct 2008 17:27:54 GMT

The horses Curlin beat were so bad that Big Brown ducked him every chance he got. Oh yeah, he ducked everyone else too.

re: Getting a Handle on the Pro-Ride

Whatever — Wed, 22 Oct 2008 17:20:01 GMT

The Classic winner will be the horse that takes to that synthetic surface. it will be a horse that has run and won over that surface will be your winner, and that is one of the california based runners. Curlin is wonderful, love him, but he's at an obvious disadvantage, but who knows, maybe he'll fool us all on Saturday and win by 10.

re: Getting a Handle on the Pro-Ride

Monica V — Wed, 22 Oct 2008 17:02:16 GMT

Draynay just can't stand Curlin. 5th or 6th! Ha! At least he doesn't have him last. Oh, wait, that was another horse!

re: Getting a Handle on the Pro-Ride

Draynay — Wed, 22 Oct 2008 02:48:18 GMT

Ummmm.... maybe none of you noticed but Curlin has not looked very good his last 2 races vs. very average horses. He is facing much tougher in this and maybe its time to work him a bit faster because everyone is gunning for him. There are some very good closers in this race and he has been lucky with more than one head bob just ask Street Sense and Lawyer Ron.

LDP... he beat some good horses in the Dubai Asiatic Boy and Premium Tap ? Premium Tap ? And Curlin would have won the Man O War if he just switched places with Red Rocks? Why didn't I think of that.

re: Getting a Handle on the Pro-Ride

Wanda — Wed, 22 Oct 2008 02:12:20 GMT

InTheMountains: There are alot of people on here that are fans but a very very small percentage know how to train a horse let alone walk one.

Saying that most of them don't get into commenting about the training end cause their smart enough to know they don't know. Even the ones that do know don't comment on another guys training methods. If you've got a horse who's made 10 mill, you have to expect the guy who's training him knows what he's doing. That's not rocket science. I guess the odd person just has to say something negative just because they can. You and I know better.

re: Getting a Handle on the Pro-Ride

The Wizard — Wed, 22 Oct 2008 01:24:01 GMT

Draynay,

You're right, Asmussen doesn't know what he's doing. Doesn't have a clue how to train Curlin up to a big race like Saturday's.

So, do us all a favor. Bet everything you got that Curlin won't hit the board. Everything on whoever you think will finish ahead of him. EVERYTHING you got!

re: Getting a Handle on the Pro-Ride

MikeM — Wed, 22 Oct 2008 00:55:58 GMT

If Curlins 5/8 work the other day is any indication of his readiness than the others are really going to have their hands full. The race will be over at the 3/8 pole.