Breeders' Cup Wrap and Horse of the Year Debate

re: Breeders' Cup Wrap and Horse of the Year Debate

oso7 — Mon, 21 Nov 2011 23:24:39 GMT

AAF you should quit while you're ahead. In reality, though, you really are never ahead because you bury yourself by twisting facts to fit your own current bias--such as BL would have beeb trounced if she'd run in the Pacific Classic, which was just an ok field according to you. Yikes, AAF, do you really want to go there? I mean the 4th place finisher, Game on Dude, went on to handily finish in front of your heroine in the Classic. So what does that transmit to HDG if she ran behind GoD despite snail-like fractions, and still couldn't get by him? If the other field was ok and the 4th place finisher finished in front of HDG, does that make her average?

Then you like to build up HDG by claiming she "trounced" BL. But if BL isn't a horse who could have done anything against an ok Pacific Classic field then why do you herald HDG's ONLY 2 wins against BL out of 6 meetings--one of which was when she was toting 10 pounds less weight than BL carried and yet only won by a diminishing neck. Hmmm, confusing when you have to twist yourself into a pretzel to figure how you're going to support your current favs while burying everyone else.

My suggestion is you go on a snipe hunt for Draynay and the two of your can commiserate for awhile and then come back with something better than your standard nonsense.

re: Breeders' Cup Wrap and Horse of the Year Debate

Stevebiscuit — Mon, 21 Nov 2011 18:30:46 GMT

Keep spinning your wheels AAF, it's quite entertaining! Maybe one of these days someone will take you seriously! Lmao!

re: Breeders' Cup Wrap and Horse of the Year Debate

Swale1984 — Mon, 21 Nov 2011 16:02:50 GMT

Typical of you, AAF, to argue about class and then, omit anything that damages your already insignificant credibility. You brought up the now-retired Twice Over, yet you failed to acknowledge that his 5th and 6th place performances in Group 1 races were behind the likes of Rewilding, So You Think (who you said being in the BCC boosted HDG's claim to a title) and Canford Cliffs, who defeated your other horse, Goldikova. Yep...pretty shabby horses he was running against....definitely worse horses than the 2011 Woodward field,with those world beaters Mambo Meister, Ice Box, and Convocation.

Let me know when you know what a TRULY great horse is......I'm guessing I'll be Queen of England before that happens.

re: Breeders' Cup Wrap and Horse of the Year Debate

AfleetAlexForever — Mon, 21 Nov 2011 04:17:24 GMT

Facts are facts, Let’s compare the years that were had for both horses that we are referring to. Acclamation with 7 starts in 2011 and had 5 wins. His 2 losses were a 5th place finishing behind Fluke, Jeranimo, & Times Gone By. At least Acclamation finished in front of Lieve, lol. In the Grade 3 Charles Town Classic he finished 10th that being dead last, losing to horses by the name of No Advantage and Rule whom HDG beat and Gone Astray, this is certainly not the resume of a HOY candidate and the main reason why this horse will not even come close to winning the Turf Eclipse award because Cape Blanco won race of much more consequence than Acclamation even was allowed to contest.

I will say this Acclamation can be considered in the same breath as Blind Luck, as both horses have a last place finish to their name. Now listing the wins of consequence to give indication of the class of horse that the horse ran with would also be helpful. In his wins Acclamation defeated, (Falcon Rock, Celtic New Year, Jeranimo, Twirling Candy and Champ Pegasus). Again indication that this horse is not a legit HOY candidate as of the 7 races he contested he defeated very few Grade 1 winners. He defeated G1 winners Twirling Candy, Game On Dude, & Stately Victor a horse that would certainly not be considered G1 off of finishing 8th, 7th, 5th, 9th, 12th, 11th, and 5th in 7 out of 14 races. But I am sure the resident pedigree analyst in Swale would tell you that this horse was very competitive in his 12th and 11th place finishes. As this was the assessment by Swale of Twice Over’s 9th, 6th, and 5th place finishes this year. It’s most likely obvious to anyone with common sense that finishing 5th or worse in a race would give indication that a horse is not competitive in that race but Swale thinks differently, that’s why I state that maybe out west, running last like Blind Luck & Acclamation did in their awful performances this year is an indicator that a horse is doing well. LOL.

Its Obvious that you can’t have much common sense to tout a horse for HOY with a last place and 5th place finish during the year. This is just not impressive, no matter how you try to spin it, and believe me the west coasters who are used to mediocre quality showing up at their tracks are certainly willing to give a horse a pass (5th place) or two (last place) for races during the year. Like the Zenites of 2009 everything is about the BC win one year, and then in 2010, its about a weak year of racing out west against the likes of well practically nothing of significance, unless you give Falcon Rock his due, lol. Albeit the Pac Classic field that was to include the great Blind Luck who would have been trounced in that race, I am sure even worse than she performed in the LS. So Acclamation’s candidacy is all about finishing last in a race, finishing 5th in another, and then beating up on allowance horses in 4 of 5 wins, taking down an ok field in the Pac Classic and ducking the major races run on turf this year in the US at the top rung of turf racing. Where was Acclamation when Cape Blanco came calling in the Man O’ War or Arlington Million, he was ducking him running in the all important Jim Murray.

Hey Swale, take a shot at spinning that into something different or maybe you’ll go down that road your friend Hail went down when he Touted Caleb’s Posse for HOY, you and your friend Oso, Clueless and Naïve.

2007 & 2008 HOY Curlin – Super Horse

2009 HOY Rachel Alexandra – Super Filly

2010 HOY Blame was robbed by the 2010 SOY Zenyatta – Most over rated HOY in the history of the award and the first HOY ever to never have defeated a Grade 1 winner during the year of racing.

BTW, Oso, Let me know when you are able to claim that Zenyatta wins a Open Company race on Dirt. I'll wait, LMBO.

re: Breeders' Cup Wrap and Horse of the Year Debate

Stevebiscuit — Sun, 20 Nov 2011 17:03:17 GMT

Well said, oso7!

re: Breeders' Cup Wrap and Horse of the Year Debate

oso7 — Sun, 20 Nov 2011 03:32:33 GMT

I'm really not surprised AAF would come here to further discredit Zenyatta in his baseless effort to talk up HDG, whose non-threatening effort in the 2nd slowest running of the Classic speaks for itself. At least Alysheba had a reason to have run the slowest Classic, it was over a sloppy track in a driving rainstorm. Wait, can AAF explain what happened to his super filly? She didn't care for the track? Oh, sure, that makes sense. Unfortunately for him, Zenyatta didn't care for the CD surface either but managed to come from 20 lengths back to sweep by the entire field and end up only inches short of running down Blame.

If you compared the two running times of last year's Classic and this year's, Zenyatta beat HDG by over 13 lengths.

AAF, take some consolation that HDG is running again next year. Maybe she can do better than her 3rd place finish in the BCLC, where she was behind BL once again, or her 4th place finish in the Classic. If she runs another 3 years and manages a win in the BCLC, another win in the Classic and a close runner-up finish in yet another Classic, then get back to us about comparing her to Zenyatta. Until then, keep up your hypocritical spin until your next world beater comes along. By then we might all have forgotten who your top pick was last year, Quality Road. At least, HDG finished better than he did.

re: Breeders' Cup Wrap and Horse of the Year Debate

Swale1984 — Sat, 19 Nov 2011 21:26:05 GMT

Oh, Stevebiscuit, don't you know that AAF is the god of all racing knowledge? Relative newbie that he is, he knows more about the sport than the likes of Sir Henry Cecil! He knows more than the likes of Bloodhorse's own Steve Haskin! We should all bow to his superior knowledge and revere him as the god he is!

Kudos to you, Laz, and the others who have called him for being the blinkers-on hypocrite that he is.

If I had to pick today, I'd give Acclamation the nod. Graded wins on different surfaces at classic distance AND 5 consecutive Graded wins is enough for me.

It should also be noted that Lady's Secret and Azeri both won their BC races in the years they were named HOY. Zenyatta hit the board in her HOY year. Only RA didn't win a BC race the year she won HOY...because she didn't enter. The BC loss may well be the nail in the coffin for HDG's bid.

re: Breeders' Cup Wrap and Horse of the Year Debate

Stevebiscuit — Sat, 19 Nov 2011 01:50:56 GMT

AAF, if a horse doesn't handle a surface, they won't win. The fact that Gio Ponti won a grade 3 proves he could handle the surface. Did Clement blame the surface after Gio Ponti got a dream trip along the rail only to be run down late by the great Zenyatta? No! He simply got beat by a superior racehorse. If you knew anything about horses, you'd know that Gio Ponti looked very comfortable over pro-ride. And are you really going to compare the horses Rachel beat on dirt to the horses Zenyatta beat on dirt? That's laughable! It's time for you to get over Rachel and Grace, neither of whom ever beat a field of even half the quality the Zenyatta faced. Zenyatta is hands down the greatest female racehorse of all time. Rachel is in the top 5. Havre is top 30...maybe. Get over it!

re: Breeders' Cup Wrap and Horse of the Year Debate

AfleetAlexForever — Fri, 18 Nov 2011 21:14:42 GMT

YOU mean before Grace ended her career in the Del Cap. Amazing how Grace came out of that race ready to go and blind Luck would never hit the board again in her career. Maybe running last is just as good as first out west due to the lack of competition.

Steve you might want to try to comprehend what someone says when you read. Why would you list me the horses that won at 10 furlongs in 2009 when i clearly stated numerous times that 1 horse won a 10 furlong race that contested the BC Classic in 2010. Weakest field ever to contest the race. And what logic is there that a horse that won a 12 furlong race cant handle 10 furlongs. there is a dummies series out there for you Steve I suggest you purchase that.

Last Steve before this gets too embarrassing for you, did you try to validate Gio Ponti off of a Grade 3 win in a race that was contested by the likes of Medjool & El Gato Malo, Icemancometh, Sky Cape, Pistol Pete Afleet, young Joe and Ten Meropa. Stellar field that he defeated there, but to you a horse finishing 2nd, 4th, 5th and 5th on synthetics means that the horse likes the surface, compared to his 8 or so wins on turf. You buddy are clueless, and not worth wasting the time to explain the elementary things about horse racing, Laz is just as clueless why dont you ask him about how Great Gio Ponti was on synthetics. lol 1/5 on a surface makes that surface detested by the horse. But hey another super duper horse couldnt win 1 open company race on dirt in her career either so we recognize that those that can't cut it just fall below the rest.

Rachel Alexandra 1 Open Company win on dirt

Havre De Grace 1 Open Company win on dirt.

Thats the list. lol Glaring omission huh of the west coast over hyped sensational synthetic superstar. lol Get over it.

re: Breeders' Cup Wrap and Horse of the Year Debate

Carlos in Cali — Fri, 18 Nov 2011 20:20:39 GMT

AAF has been served! Game over. An in-foal Zenyatta in her 2nd tri-mester would run past HDG with ease.

re: Breeders' Cup Wrap and Horse of the Year Debate

LAZMANNICK — Thu, 17 Nov 2011 21:06:18 GMT

AAF

There's only one thing that is legit and we all know what that is?

All those so called legit 10F horses, even the former claimer Headache, and of course we all know that Gracie isn't one of them.

I wonder if any of them could have given Blind Luck a race when she was right.

re: Breeders' Cup Wrap and Horse of the Year Debate

Stevebiscuit — Thu, 17 Nov 2011 20:01:50 GMT

AAF, wow you're a hypocrite! I've got news for you, Flat Out was a grade 2 horse when Havre De Grace beat him. You can't ignore Switch's two grade 1 wins after facing Zenyatta, while saying Grace beat a grade 1 winner like Flat Out. You're contradicting yourself. You can't focus on certain pieces of information while ignoring others in order to justify your argument. I mean, you can do that but just realize nobody will take you seriously. Oh, and what's Flat Out's record at Churchill Downs? What's really sad is that Flat Out was probably the best horse Grace ever beat. In case you forgot, Colonel John was a mile and a quarter horse(he won the Travers) and he won the Santa Anita Derby over pro-ride. Are you really going to dismiss Gio Ponti? The horse who won the Sir Beaufort Stakes, proving he could handle pro-ride, and who in 2009 won 4 grade 1s in a row, two of them at a mile and a quarter? Didn't Einstein win the Santa Anita Handicap in 2009? Isn't that a mile and a quarter over pro-ride? Didn't Awesome Gem go on to win the Hollywood Gold Cup at a mile and a quarter? What about Richard's Kid? Did the 2 time Pacific Classic winner have any trouble with the surface or distance? What about Twice Over? He's a mile and a quarter grade 1 winner and he handles synthetics just fine. The 10 furlong horses you listed either beat Havre De Grace or are too weak to be worth mentioning. I mean seriously, you're really going to brag about beating Headache? Get real! And how is Ruler On Ice a 10 furlong horse if he never won at 10 furlongs? Lmao! You just keep making things up! There were only 3 real dirt horses in the 09 Classic: Girolamo, Regal Ransom, and Summer Bird. Let's face it, the first 2 weren't going to win no matter what surface the race was on and Summer Bird's strong 4th place finish hardly suggests he didn't handle the surface. The fact is that the 2009 Classic field was run on a neutral surface and was chalk full of grade 1 winners. Zenyatta was simply above and beyond all of them. And unlike Grace, she didn't need Blind Luck to retire in order to secure her place in the division. This year's Classic field was a joke and Grace barely put up a fight. I doubt she would have done much in the Ladies Classic either. Grace would be lucky to be compared to Blind Luck. But comparing her to Zenyatta is an absolute joke. It would be like comparing Uncle Mo to Secretariat.

re: Breeders' Cup Wrap and Horse of the Year Debate

AfleetAlexForever — Thu, 17 Nov 2011 17:24:26 GMT

Whoops did i forget Flat out winner of the 10 furlong JCGC

That makes 7 girls. The number increases. 7 compared to 1 in 2010,Im just saying.

re: Breeders' Cup Wrap and Horse of the Year Debate

AfleetAlexForever — Thu, 17 Nov 2011 17:23:04 GMT

Did someone really just bring up Colonel John to validate Zenyatta. Hey that’s cool, let’s validate a over hyped horse that finished her career with 0 wins on dirt in open company and who never once beat a Grade 1 winner during a HOY winning campaign. LOL Great points guys, keep it coming, Grace running against Graded stakes accomplished horses in her two tries against males is far more impressive than the wannabes that showed up for the 2010 classic with only 1 horse having a 10furlong win that being the Mighty Haynesfield. Or the wannabe synthetic tried and tested horses in 2009. What was the surface the 09 BC was contested on again. Oh its not in existence anymore, and the 2nd place finisher in Gio Ponti had run on the surface a few times in Grade 3 races while finishing off the board, that’s a wonderful way to validate how great Zenyatta is. She beat in 2009, 8 horses making their first start on plastics. But let me give indication as to how great Zenyatta is, when Gio Ponti ran on the surface previously he finished 5th behind Cowboy Cal, Blue Exit, Dixie Chatter and Victory Pete, Colonel John ran in 4 Graded races to finish his career 6th, 4th, 5th and 5th. Only winning the ungraded Wicker to his credit. So hey as was the rest of her career, she was able to defeat a male that could only win 50k stakes races on the West Coast. Proves she’s great huh.

In 2010 as she lined up against again 1 horse that had a 10furlong win, in the sprinter Haynesfield, it was obvious that she was certainly in deep water right, lol great points when trying to validate the greatness of the 2010 field. So for the sake of controversy, let’s list the G1 10 furlongs winners in the 2010 field:

Haynesfield

Now let’s list the 2011 BCC 10 furlong horses that Grace faced:

Drosselmeyer

Game on Dude

Ruler on Ice

So You Think

Stay Thirsty

Headache

So 6 legit 10 horses that had won at 1 ¼ mile or more. Eye opening huh girls.

re: Breeders' Cup Wrap and Horse of the Year Debate

Stevebiscuit — Thu, 17 Nov 2011 15:56:59 GMT

AAF, Grace lost to those 2 Belmont winners in case you forgot. And it doesn't take a super horse to beat Stay Thirsty, especially the Stay Thirsty that ran in the Classic. Heck, even Uncle Mo beat him! Lmao! So You Think? Are you joking? He's a grass horse! Or did you forget that little detail? At least when Zenyatta faced grass horses it was on a surface that they were at no disadvantage. Zenyatta beat far better horses in the 09 Classic than Grace beat in her entire career. Lmao!

re: Breeders' Cup Wrap and Horse of the Year Debate

LAZMANNICK — Thu, 17 Nov 2011 05:57:54 GMT

AAF

How’s the red face. Quite a bad sunburn don’t you think. Opppps. Sorry. That red face isn’t from a sunburn. Oh well, at least you won’t have to buy any blush for awhile.

Why don’t you quite while you’re behind?

Gracie ran against as in ran in the race and finished 4th..

It doesn’t quite compare to Zenyatta defeating two BC Distaff winners, two Travers winners, a Kentucky Derby Winner, a Preakness winner, a Belmont winner a Hollywood Gold Cup winner, a Pacific Classic winner, two Jockey Club Cup winners, a Santa Anita Handicap winner, a Queen Elizabeth Stakes winner, an Eclipse Stakes winner, etc., and etc., and etc.

re: Breeders' Cup Wrap and Horse of the Year Debate

Footlick — Wed, 16 Nov 2011 19:54:16 GMT

AAF- How can you count So You Think who has no dirt form and not count the turf horses in Zenyatta's 2009 win. You constantly rant that they had no synthetic form so they don't count. Here you cite a horse who has multiple gr 1 wins at 10 furlongs..... ON TURF. He had no dirt form whatsoever. Why does he count and Zenyatta's opponents in 2009 don't? It is much more plausible to think a turf horse will show form on synthetic than dirt. Other than So You Think, Drosselmeyer had shown little form since his slow Belmont win until his grind-up second in the Jockey Gold Cup, and the Travers winner, Stay Thirsty, has no form outside New York. At least the Travers winner that Zenyatta faced, Colonel John, had shown form outside one state and on synthetic. You constantly slant facts to suit your purpose and it is not objective. At least be objective.

re: Breeders' Cup Wrap and Horse of the Year Debate

AfleetAlexForever — Wed, 16 Nov 2011 18:06:33 GMT

You're right Steve, Grace ran against two Belmont winners, a Travers winner and So You think a winner of 8 Grade 1 10 furlong races.

Zenyatta ran against (Haynesfield & Blame) Much more difficult in 2010 LOL

re: Breeders' Cup Wrap and Horse of the Year Debate

Householder — Wed, 16 Nov 2011 17:49:59 GMT

AAF. You forgot to mention Zenyatta's World Record! We'll talk more when Harve gets close to besting it.

re: Breeders' Cup Wrap and Horse of the Year Debate

Householder — Wed, 16 Nov 2011 17:47:36 GMT

AfleetAlexForever. You fogot to bring up the California debate. Zenyatta forever stayed in Southern California and while Harve De Grace traveled the world taking on the best!

re: Breeders' Cup Wrap and Horse of the Year Debate

Stevebiscuit — Tue, 15 Nov 2011 18:58:52 GMT

AAF, Havre De Grace isn't even as good as Blind Luck. Now you're comparing her to Zenyatta? Havre De Grace couldn't even handle this group of males, let alone the males Zenyatta faced. Heck, she couldn't even handle the 2010 Ladies Classic field and you somehow think there's a comparison! Lmao! You're really spinning your wheels now! Havre De Grace could get an extra 10 length head start and she'd still be no match for Zenyatta. She is simply a superior racehorse, get over it.

re: Breeders' Cup Wrap and Horse of the Year Debate

Carlos in Cali — Tue, 15 Nov 2011 18:09:41 GMT

You know.. sometimes we humans need a good laugh every now and then.So, thank you AAF et al.

re: Breeders' Cup Wrap and Horse of the Year Debate

LAZMANNICK — Tue, 15 Nov 2011 17:32:34 GMT

AAF

How's the blush this morning? Is your face still red? Now you're saying the HDG is in the same area code as Zenyatta. Nw you are trying to justify a lacklustre 4th place finish in the BCC to a mare that won a BCC and finished 2nd by a head in another one. Please go back to credability school.

re: Breeders' Cup Wrap and Horse of the Year Debate

Arch the phoneman — Sun, 13 Nov 2011 20:57:11 GMT

Animal Kingdom Horse of the Year? I'd go Cape Blanco before Animal Kingdom.

re: Breeders' Cup Wrap and Horse of the Year Debate

ksweatman9 — Sat, 12 Nov 2011 00:34:59 GMT

ZENYATTA, her name will always come up when talking about the sport of kings. Her haters just like to argue for the sake of arguement. It's a game for them. Oh, she ran weak campaigns, oh did she? She ran against the best those years had to offer. Her connections never turned away a challenge because of an entry they were afraid to run against. Big Z made the competition look weak. She was that good. If her Cali connections would've run her as hard as Goldikova was run, no one would be able to dispute her greatness, very unfortunate. There was no shame in her only loss, she learned from the experience, it wouldn't have hastened her dirt trip the second time out, but there was not to be a second time for the giant mare, racing's loss. She had more to give, I'm not convinced big Z was ready to leave the track. I've followed racing over 4 decades and I recognize greatness when I see it. I don't need someone wet behind the ears to analize Zenyatta's career and tell me she was just overrated hype. I'm not that stupid. I know what she is, how good she was, and so do alot of other people.