Breeders' Cup Thoughts - One Day After

re: Breeders' Cup Thoughts - One Day After

Matthew W — Sat, 01 Nov 2008 05:31:54 GMT

This years Breeders Cup will always be remembered for so many strong second place finishes! Kip Deville ran better than last years BC Win!! Fatal Bullet wins 9 outta 10 Cups with his Sprint 2nd...Henrythenavagator ran lights out....and what can you say about those two Euro 2yolds on the turf--they both look like Derby timber!! Those Euros were the real deal, and if it takes Pro Ride to get'em over here, have-ho!! I want the best--Curlin shouldda won but he was "out coached"!! I think it was a shock to all when they decided to send their "A-Team" to the Cup, but this makes it a level playing field now, let the games begin! Next year, make The Goodwood or stay home and let The Euros dominate--Cali can't do it alone--the best horses are usually in NY so help us out! You owe us for Tiznow!!

re: Breeders' Cup Thoughts - One Day After

Matthew W — Sat, 01 Nov 2008 05:22:43 GMT

Hey Rock, I've been "discounting" synthetics --all year---but I ask you, Why discount them in any way, in regards to this years Cup?? They hit it outta the park, and I ask you--What is the choice? Do you want the real good Euros or not? Yes? Then it's HAS to be Pro Ride!

re: Breeders' Cup Thoughts - One Day After

Matthew W — Sat, 01 Nov 2008 05:17:34 GMT

Saratoga AJ when they were loading Alysheba into the gate in his 2nd Classic, they were saying he needed to win to be HOY over Personal Ensign--I agreed at that time as well as today---Curlin lost HOY to Zenyatta in BC--And I also agree with disputing the Beyers---Beyers are not always right--how does Jumron get 73's at Portland Meadows then goes to Bay Meadows and gets a 109?? Then he's The Derby 2nd choice?? You're telling me that Curlin's last three races were stronger than Zenyatta's? I thought the best horses won in 08 Cup---moreso than in any Cup I can remember! Yes, a miler in Europe can win Classic! One of Ravens Pass's "miles" was one of the most gruelling races on the planet--and Henry was there, too!...If you give HOY to Curlin then you're saying Dubai is MORE important than The Breeders Cup! No way would I run Curlin in The Clark! He's a tired horse! Ditto that for Zenyatta! She showed up at Santa Anita---let Commentator have The Clark, he's a nice horse/a tough horse, and 1 1/8 is right up his alley...All I know is This Years BC had some real good horses, not like The 03 BC (on DIRT) when Santa Anita was "shunned" by many New Yorkers...Oak Tree hit it outta the park so next year its more of the same...Better go in Goodwood next year! But I ramble! Saratoga AJ--wnat I mean is this--Zenyatta was spectacular in Winter, Spring, Summer and Fall, She beat The Champ in her 4th race off a three month layoff, on her first try on dirt--That was The Apple Blossom--4th race, 1st dirt, 3 mo layoff, vs Ginger Punch!! And then she got better!! Sorry, pal, as Joe Friday would always say, "Just the facts, ma'am" (Or in your case, "sir"!!)

re: Breeders' Cup Thoughts - One Day After

Bradgm — Fri, 31 Oct 2008 16:38:23 GMT

Rock,

I live here, but move it out of Cal. Too laid back, let's show up for the big races and be gone. ALL about IMAGE.

Since it's here next year, Nothing but the Graded races on Saturday, nothing but BC races on that day. 10 BC races the Classic the last race. Figure out which division has the most exciting entrants and make that the first race. If more than one great division put the other in the middle of the day.

The way people are, even if they aren't the biggest racing fans they love to be able to talk about a big event the next day when it's held in their locale. Saying to their workmates, friends etc. "i was there when Zenyatta, Stardom Bound etc won." (similar to, I was there when my beloved Arizona won the 97 National Championship, sorry, still upset about the original 'Midnight Lute' Olson). Of course you have to have the super horses. Let's just hope for another Secretariat.

TV hmm. They tried a lot of gimmicks. Hank, sorry but the funniest thing he did was talking to his pig, but I think that may not have just been for the camera. He's a painful parody.

Jerry gets on my nerves, toning it down so maybe just more time, the guys talk to him so.

Camera work. I watched it on Tivo and it made me dizzy.

Why oh why was the middle of the card on Network tv? Maybe the Classic was prime time EDT but, come on.

Better on less commercials this year. But no real adverts or lead up and hyping of the big horses in the days leading up.

One problem is, this year the human connections, which like it or not is what the very casual fans like, were not the most likeable, charismatic or riveting. A piece on Vlad and what he's come through. Great guy.

Even though Jackson was hailed as a sportsman people said, he's rich, now he just wants the recognition (real comment heard it next to me). Then the disbarrment announced just before the BC and the court ordered sealed bids.

Then of course dipwad Dutrow and his comment about women. LOVED Carla's comeback. Joe T's reaction and Randy's too. Heck even hardnose Lukas admits they're great and I chuckled at his comment about falling in love with women causing problems (he has some expertise there.)

Maybe some quickwitted comments to those various reactions too.

Why not try a live reaction, by losers, winners and not just the jockey or trainer. Well maybe not a handicapper would have burned their ears with the curse words. Not us though, we did great betting if I remember but I was drowning my U of Arizona sorrows so it's not too clear.

re: Breeders' Cup Thoughts - One Day After

THE ROCK — Thu, 30 Oct 2008 16:48:48 GMT

Looking for some input here and to take everyone's attention from the BB, Curly, Zenny debate. Discounting synthetic surfaces, how can the BC be improved with its tv coverage of the event and the event in general?

re: Breeders' Cup Thoughts - One Day After

Rechelle — Thu, 30 Oct 2008 16:21:32 GMT

DANYLSON, Commentator is not in consideration for HOY and you can not expect Curlin to run AGAIN in 4 weeks. He's run 3 races in 8 weeks to try to run 4 in 12 would kill him. That would be taking a HUGE risk of a possible breakdown. I can assure you in Curlin broke down running against Commentator in Nov, PETA would be all over the industry again.

re: Breeders' Cup Thoughts - One Day After

chris — Thu, 30 Oct 2008 16:05:41 GMT

Dutrows comment on wonwon on espn again should the racing public what a jerk he is. Afterall it is not so long ago during the big brown story he said himself he would not be where he is today if it were not for michelle nevin his assistant.. Michelle give him the boot and train yourself!!!!!!!!!! DUTROW will soon be old NEWS.

re: Breeders' Cup Thoughts - One Day After

Rechelle — Thu, 30 Oct 2008 14:13:03 GMT

Draynay, exactly WHO did Big Brown beat in his last two races? Shakis? He was already showing that he wasn't a contender and that he was becoming nothing more than an allowance race horse (no disrespect to Shakis, I love him but he was EIGHT years old, it was past time for him to retire!). Coal Play, another allowance horse who nearly beat Big Brown?? Oh yeah, let's give Big Brown HOY for beating NO ONE!!! And again, I reiterate, that Ivarone said at his interview Saturday that BB was SOUND (sound means NO INJURIES). That makes me think that they claimed an injury that did not happen JUST so they could duck Curlin and EVERY OTHER GREAT HORSE at the BC Classic.

Look at Curlin ... he shipped to Dubai, won 2 races there, came back to the States, won a race in June, lost on turf to a BC Turf winner, won 2 more in a row, went to the BC Classic on a surface that Jackson & Asmussen didn't want to run him on in the first place and finished a gallant third, behind 2 horses that aren't eligible for our HOY and Tiago, who hasn't done ENOUGH to win HOY. Also, let's not forget that he ran 3 races in 8 weeks for a total distance of over 3.5 miles. Unlike when BB tried to run that many races in a short period of time, at least Curlin FINISHED the race. If BB could've won the Triple Crown, then yes he'd be in consideration. If BB would've faced Curlin, which is what he HAD to do to get HOY, then yes he'd be in consideration. He did neither. I still think BB will be lucky to get 3yo colt of the year with the way some of the other 3yos improved over the season, including Colonel John who won the Travers in a thrilling fashion and who had the guts to face Curlin and every other horse in the BC Classic and had won on both artificial surfaces and dirt.

BB doesn't deserve HOY. He didn't do ANYTHING worth commenting about and his Beyers were pitiful, his highest one being 109. As ESPN guys said on Saturday, Big Brown is GOOD but he'll never be considered GREAT.

re: Breeders' Cup Thoughts - One Day After

draynot — Thu, 30 Oct 2008 12:36:19 GMT

nay nay,

The simple fact is Big Brown never beat anyone who was top notch when he faced them. He didn't even race the entire season. This is an award for Horse of the Year not horse of the 1/2 year. You mentioned Wanderin Boy, in his race against Curlin he received a better Beyer than Big Brown ever did his entire career and would have beat Big Brown. No wonder Duck Duck Dutrow and Co. refused the challenge to run in that race, he would have been beaten by multiple animals that day. Belmont schmelmont, Big Brown had nobody to blame but himself for that loss. All his problems started right out of the gate when he broke in and almost took out the maiden who despite Brownie severly compromising his race ended up whipping Brownie by multiple lenghts in the end. He choked in the biggest race of his life. I believe after that debacle his connections realized he wasn't really special and that's why they ducked the Curlin challenge.

It wasn't just his debacle in the Belmont that will cost him HOY it is the fact he only beat very meek members of this years class of 3 yr olds and his one race against older was a setup for a win and he almost lost that. Raven's Pass is a much better 3 yr old than the Big Ole Browneye and should be 3 yr old of the year, at least he beat somebody of consequence and raced a full season.

As for HOY I'm not really a firm "backer" of any particular animal. One thing I know for sure is the Big Ole Browneye didn't prove he's worthy of that honor. You were spouting off and claiming that if Brownie went to the Classic and won he should be HOY and I would have been inclined to agree if that was the case. At that time you were not claiming the honor for the Big Ole Browneye based on his accomplishments leading up to the Classic. You knew then that he hadn't earned it and needed to beat much better and older to lay claim to the honor. In case you can't remember he never made it there. He never proved he was better than Curlin, Raven's Pass, and many others because he never faced anyone that good. Those he faced were at the time he faced them well under par for even an average 3 yr old class. His G1 wins weren't against true G1 competition. LOL all you want at Curlin's competition some of who ran faster than Brownie ever did in his best races, the fact of the matter is Brownie never beat anyone of Curlin's class. The Big Ole Browneye never faced anyone near as good or better than Curlin. He never achieved the next level of competition because he never faced it. To be HOY you have to beat more than Brownie did. They just weren't that good. To be HOY at 3 one has to beat not only his generation but the beat of the older generation as well. Brownie had a shot to do that but didn't make it to the Classic therefore he falls well short.

re: Breeders' Cup Thoughts - One Day After

LDP — Thu, 30 Oct 2008 09:58:27 GMT

Also, Wanderin boy is a good horse, notice who he faced and ran second two, o let me see Bernardini Invasor Lawyer Ron. BB nerve faced horses like that. Also are you really going to bash a horse that finished third in the worlds richest race, w/o running on steroids? Zen can run on Poly and dirt, Curlin can whip anyone on real dirt. What does BB do win all his races against very weak fields and dominates a bunch of Glorified allowences horses.

re: Breeders' Cup Thoughts - One Day After

LDP — Thu, 30 Oct 2008 09:52:26 GMT

Dray,

Answer me this who did BB beat. I asure you both Curlin and Zenyatta beat better horses than he ever did. Also Pro ride does play somewhat like turf, why do you think the races were so bunched? I got an idea, since your so sure Jason will vote HOY why don't we ask him. So Jason who is your pick for HOY BB Curlin or Zen.

re: Breeders' Cup Thoughts - One Day After

DANYLSON — Thu, 30 Oct 2008 03:46:42 GMT

TO SOLVE THE PUZZLE TO HORSE OF THE YEAR, CURLIN NEEDS TO RUN AT CHURCHILL AND BEAT COMMENTATOR AND HE WILL SECURE THE HONORS, WHETHER HE RUNS AND WINS IS BOTH BIG QUESTIONS.REGARDLESS HE IS HOY TO ME.

re: Breeders' Cup Thoughts - One Day After

Taxman — Thu, 30 Oct 2008 02:55:01 GMT

One thing that was wrong was the strange lack of security at the entrance gates. I sat next to three women who brought in bottles of Grey Goose in their purses! Think this would happen at the Derby? Think again. I was not even wanded when I entered. It would not take much for someone to smuggle something terribly wrong into this years BC at Santa Anita.

Hopefully officials will wake up for next year.

re: Breeders' Cup Thoughts - One Day After

Jason Shandler — Thu, 30 Oct 2008 02:47:17 GMT

Householder: The National Turf Writers Association votes for the Eclipse Awards.

re: Breeders' Cup Thoughts - One Day After

Householder — Thu, 30 Oct 2008 00:41:42 GMT

How can we give HOY to Curlin? He certainly did not dominate the sprint ranks and I did not see him showing up in any 1 1/2 Graded Turf events. How about a race agaist any Grade I Turf Horse and Curlin on the Turf Horse's preferred surface. That would be the true test would it not?

re: Breeders' Cup Thoughts - One Day After

Householder — Thu, 30 Oct 2008 00:33:31 GMT

Perhaps Jason can enlighten us on who actually votes for HOY. I know it is "industry" people but they messed this up once before...LURE. Was Lure supposed to leave the turf and run on the dirt for 1 1/4 to get HOY? He was the best TURF MILER on both sides of the pond during his day. If it is going to be HOY "Classic" all the time then how is the award going to the BEST horse? Perhaps they need to just get rid of this award or rename it HOY "Classic."

re: Breeders' Cup Thoughts - One Day After

Julie L. — Thu, 30 Oct 2008 00:31:20 GMT

Matthew W. - Well that is good to hear that you heard great applause but where I was sitting with my parents I heard the comments from people such as "We showed Seattle Slew what racing is about in California, he got his butt kicked good." That has stayed with me for all of these years and there were other comments as well and maybe, just maybe, one or two people on saturday may have had some unkind words for Curlin but this time I was nowhere near those comments. I got to hear the applause for a great horse.

re: Breeders' Cup Thoughts - One Day After

Saratoga AJ — Wed, 29 Oct 2008 23:55:25 GMT

Well then Jason I respect your opinion, but I guess I'm more of a tradionalist and will not go against the way HOTY has been awarded in the past. Why change a a system that is fair and worked all these years? Especially when we let the results of an unproven artificial rubberized race track have such an inpact on the year's body of work like that of Curlin's.

If Zenyatta gets voted HOTY over Curlin, to me it will be just another example of the regression of sport of Thoroughbred Racing and it's traditions.

And is it true what I have heard....that there was something like 6 breakdowns on the supposedly safer artificial surface at Golden Gates meet, while there was none at the Belmont's (or was it CD) dirt surface meet? Hmmm.

After next years second go around at Santa Anita (and what genius planned the BC races for the same track 2 years in a row), I hope they never run them on a rubber track again. That is, unless you want to give the Europeans the advantage every time you do.

re: Breeders' Cup Thoughts - One Day After

Draynay — Wed, 29 Oct 2008 22:58:07 GMT

Draynot do you believe any of the garbage you post ? Why many of you choose to harp on Big Brown is just plain nuts. The horse won every single race he was ever allowed to finish. We all know what happend in the Belmont we all saw the pictures. He came back and ran again winning every race getting ready for the Classic and got hurt AGAIN. This is a horse that had to overcome problems with his feat just like Ghostzapper. If you watch the Classic notice that just a little more than a length behind Curlin is Colonel John and Smooth Air. Writers like Jason are going to vote on Horse of the Year and they are going to blame Big Brown for getting stepped on and pulled up. One mistake and he is not horse of the year. LOL... what a crime! I have a better idea let's give it to a filly that stuck around California and never stepped foot at Belmont, Saratoga, or Churchill and never took on any males. That is your HOY? Or better yet lets give it to a horse that beat maybe 3 G1 winners all year long.

And when he did face G1 winners....he lost. Let's give him HOY for beating Wanderin Boy, Past the Point and Well Armed. By the way where did Well Armed finish in the Classic ???

re: Breeders' Cup Thoughts - One Day After

THE ROCK — Wed, 29 Oct 2008 21:46:49 GMT

Is it just me or has the Filly/Mare division seem to be a little stronger than its male counterparts this year? Not just here, but around the world? Granted only a small sample get to test the males although it happens quite frequently in Europe. But I'd have to say that Filly/Mare Division in America would give these boys a run for there money. Any takers? (Goldikova, Zarkava, and soon Zenyatta, Eight Belles clearly second best in the KY Derby).

re: Breeders' Cup Thoughts - One Day After

jmewill — Wed, 29 Oct 2008 21:30:00 GMT

jshandler: Thank you for also pointing out that culin's last two were not immpressive as his previous had been, it was that and not jockey or surface that beat him on sat!

Beware of Jess Jackson: He must be best friends with ole Bellwether neither one of them seems to have much respect for the people who are in charge of the horses, The Trainers...With trainers like rick dutrow it's easy to see why they think like that way.....BUT then you look at people like Larry Jones, John Gosden, Richard Mandella, Bruce Headley, Paddy Gallagher,John Sherriffs, Dan Hendricks(could go on for hours) how do they come to those conclusions that 80% of trainer's are bad? And that's not even listing the very small guys who do right by their horses in an effort to get by every month... The ones who don't cheat and abuse medications but no one hears about them, it's always the high dollar guys like dutrow who can't win a Belmont without his steroids. Or the ones who are constantly being fined for TOC levels and have horses that seem to be forever running out of the protection barn.

re: Breeders' Cup Thoughts - One Day After

Paula Higgins — Wed, 29 Oct 2008 20:41:11 GMT

I do think a filly needs to beat a boy field to win HOTY. I think for a horse to be considered dominant, she has to be able to beat a male field too and it is certainly doable as we have seen more than a few times. It would be unfair to give it to a filly who has never even raced once against the boys. Especially when you have a horse like Curlin. He is a horse who has been dominant for two years, that counts for more than 9 wins in against a field of girls only. It is only logical and it is only fair. If the industry wants to hand out awards to fillys that just beat fillys, create another award. Give separate HOTY awards to the girls and the boys. Otherwise, the girls need to show up on the same playing field as the boys.

re: Breeders' Cup Thoughts - One Day After

Kat — Wed, 29 Oct 2008 20:38:03 GMT

Curlin ran a 106 in the BCC. He ran a 104 in the MO'W. These 2 races (not on dirt) are the only races since 2007 Haskell (105) that he has run under 110. You could say there is a trend there. . .

Zenyatta ran a 103 in the Classic. She ran a 108 in both the Lady's Secret and C.Hirsch. These are her highest BSFs. Out of 9 starts, she has 5 BSFs over 100. . .

re: Breeders' Cup Thoughts - One Day After

Paula Higgins — Wed, 29 Oct 2008 20:29:45 GMT

Susan, I agree there are great horses all over the world. The Euros were great at the BC. I am glad they came. I love horses from wherever they hail. However, I do think the fact that Euro horses run on turf is something that's in their favor when they run on the synthetics. That doesn't diminish their win in my opinion.

re: Breeders' Cup Thoughts - One Day After

Jason Shandler — Wed, 29 Oct 2008 20:24:44 GMT

SaratogaAJ: I do not agree that a filly/mare needs to beat a colt to earn HOY. Especially not this year when the competition for the boys was relatively weak all season in the U.S.