Clark Would Be Perfect Way For Curlin to Go Out

re: Clark Would Be Perfect Way For Curlin to Go Out

LDP — Sat, 15 Nov 2008 11:44:59 GMT

Jason, not to be rude, but as i stated in another blog, you are being, in my oppinion hypocritical. Before i start let me say that i firmly believe that proud spell should be the winner of her division, so i'm not changing positions at all. What i'm looking at is that you are willing to give a filly with a hard tough campaign, but didn't even show up to the BC the award. Proud Spell has traveled all over the darn place winning some of the most prestigious races in the U.S. She has never this year race in anything lower than grade 2, i think, you can correct me on that. Against whatever she has given to run against she has shown up, and ran her heart out, even in defeat. Notice most people scratch out her Ashland stakes because of the surface she was beaten on. Then even you yourself said you believed that in her DQ she shouldn't have been bumped out of second. So from my corner, she has done just about everything this year, but win a BC race.

Now with Curlin, who has travled from Dubai and back, ran on turf, dirt, and synthetics all in one year, won under heavey weight assignemets, won on the WORLD'S biggest stage, defended his title in the JCGC, won at the graveyard of champions, then traveles again all the way out to cali. That is travleing and then some. I would call that grueling, baring the competion because he travle what over 9000m i think during one year. Another fact, i don't know the grade of the prep he won in Dubia, but other than that, he has competed in exclusively grade one races since the Derby and has he ever finished out of the money, no, has he ever finished off the board, once. Out of all those grade ones he has only finished off the board once, and i am counting mainly this year. You can scratch his turf race, since we know he doesn't really like the turf, which leaves him with a record of 6-5-0-0, for this season. In the classic, who's to say he wasn't short, he'd only pointed for that race for like four weeks. Then unlike Zen, he ran against some of Europes biggest stars. Tell me what you think would've happened had Zarkava and Goldikova run in the Distaff. Curlin that day did run against better than Zen did. With all the reason there are for PS to be champ of her divison, there are and more for Curlin to be HOY, yet you won't give it to him, because a talented filly, who has an ubeaten record. Never mind most of those wins came in one state over a certain kind of surface. Never mind that she basicly beat the same horses over and over again. Never mind she didn't compete in exlusively grade one. Never mind how Curlin's accomplishments, and body work for the year tower over hers.

re: Clark Would Be Perfect Way For Curlin to Go Out

Jason Shandler — Fri, 14 Nov 2008 20:37:26 GMT

Filly: Nope. Didnt change my mind at all. Zenyatta wins.

re: Clark Would Be Perfect Way For Curlin to Go Out

Filly — Fri, 14 Nov 2008 20:27:03 GMT

Well Jason...I hope this blog was enough to change your mind. Curlin is the people's horse. While everyone recognizes the talent and potential of Zenyatta, Curlin deserves to be HOY in my opinion as well. Jess Jackson and Curlin have done so much for this sport that they should be rewarded. Curlin was brillant all year long and tried his best in the BC Classic only failing on a surface that his trainer didn't want to run him on. We knew that he didn't like synthetics as much as dirt going into the race because of his start on the turf. Had Curlin skipped the BC, I think that he would have definitely been HOY. Why punish him for trying? Didn't he do what we have all wanted him to do...run?

Curlin ducked no one this year and shipped all over the world. That in itself takes a lot out of a horse, and he still managed to win GIs throughout the year carrying heavy weight assignments at times. While Zenyatta has been spectacular, she has only shipped out once and has not had the grueling weight assignments and competition that Curlin has faced. He has danced every dance and has tried his heart out. He has won every start this year except for two...both of which weren't on dirt. He is the classiest horse that I have ever seen, and this horse will always hold a very special place in my heart. I think a lot more people will be disappointed if Curlin doesn't win HOY than if Zenyatta doesn't win HOY. I think that in itself should speak volumes for Curlin. He was the horse that racing needed, and he captured fans across America. Let's give the champ from "the red, white, and blue corner" what he deserves. America's Horse, the $10 million Curlin, for HOY.

Zenyatta will have her chance to prove how good she is next year when she runs against the boys. She just didn't take the crown away from Curlin this year IMO.

re: Clark Would Be Perfect Way For Curlin to Go Out

Whatamidoing — Thu, 06 Nov 2008 05:27:15 GMT

Racingfan, just got a text about this.

I've been too busy to read but Jordan answered just fine. He didn't insult you, just like I said and have said repeatedly we appreciate the fans.

Rather, I took it as an insult to say WE wouldn't exist if it weren't for fans. Well we still would,maybe not in the same exact way or numbers but we would still match race or whatever. And maam I don't think the fans do a huge amount of supporting on a day to day basis, there are too many empty grandstands, declines in attendance. But, when all is said and done it's the gamblers that support the industry, plus our own nominations and vaious fees we pay. The cost to fans would be too exhorbitant to pay if we had to charge them to get in the door and keep racing going from that income.

I just feel that this 'debate' isn't doing anything to promote the sport. If you personally weren't involved in the haranguing why would you take offense?

If you re-read the comments, you'll see the same few people just constantly beating the subject to death. Are you trying to tell me that a casual but interested fan would think this is anything more than bickering?

My point about why so much venom and vitriol about something that doesn't even have the subjects most closely tied to the issue concerned, why is it causing people to attack others?

When I said "you" I mean if the shoe fits wear it, if not throw it away or give it to the needy.

Not to discount fans at all, but can you seriously believe if there weren't the industry people you would have it as something to even be interested in? I don't think sitting in a grandstand and staring at a deserted track would attract too many fans.

re: Clark Would Be Perfect Way For Curlin to Go Out

JordanA — Thu, 06 Nov 2008 05:06:38 GMT

Racingfan, I'm not sure what 'THAT WAY'is. I was not impolite at all.

I responded because I WAS one who was calling for a cease fire. I know a few of the people posting on here, whether my buddy Wanda from the board or two trainers on here thru my buddies who met them and who we correspond with.

In fact my handicapping buddies and I as well as another handicapper ALL were calling for all of this to end. I'm a fan too and I can see how stupid it's become.

My posts were mostly to talk about other things, still relevant to racing but not to reiterate over and over again about the same subject.

The reason I took exception to what you said was not the # of YOUR posts but the fact that you insinuated just because people have expressed that it's getting old, which it is, they don't have a right to state that, that they are stepping on the most important peoples toes, the fans.

Your statement was much more offensive that any of theirs or ours. Why? because you totally discount them in the total picture as well as those of us who agreed and actually DO support racing, not the FANS who watch on television 3 or 4 times a year or go to the races a couple of times, if even that.

The industry people never said that about you they rightfully said this is hurting the industry not helping it. NO hateful remarks about if THEY weren't around you'd have to be fans of something else. THAT IS the reality.

I happen to agree with them that it isn't in the best interest of racing to belabor something like this, get nasty about the whole thing.

Ever stop to think that those of us who gamble, or train or own are all very closely tied together and want what's best for the industry? Know that this kind of stuff is a turnoff? I talk to those people 2 or 3 times a week, how about you?

The point our trainer friends are making is that it has gone from being a debate and constructive to being harmful and destructive as well as pointless. I happen to agree. I also agree that all of this vitriol and screaming at each other could be put to more positive use.

AND, Whatamidoing has a point, will any of the people who are arguing, so VEHEMENTLY, even remember who the HOY is in 5 years.

EVEN JASON said, STATE YOUR POINT, don't keep dramatizing it and going over and over it. The word ‘you’ being used in the context of , 'if it applies to YOU'

re: Clark Would Be Perfect Way For Curlin to Go Out

Racingfan — Thu, 06 Nov 2008 04:23:19 GMT

I meant All who love the sport be they gamblers (who must be fans also or they wouldn't be spending their money) or just those who follow racing for the love of the animals. Obviously everyone involved is needed (that's a given isn't it?). However all the talk is about racing dying because of fan alienation and loss of interest. If that happens there will be no need for anyone to breed, own or train racehorses. It is amazing to me how statements on here need to be explained or they get turned around into something else. I was simply trying to make a point that ALL people should be welcome to share their views without those who are in the business chastising the rest for speaking, as if they have no right to do so because they are just fans. How off the subject can we all get? LOL

re: Clark Would Be Perfect Way For Curlin to Go Out

Wanda — Thu, 06 Nov 2008 03:00:38 GMT

Racingfan do you mean just fans or do you mean the gamblers? Cause I'll tell you what drives the industry money thru the mutuals.The only way you get more money thru is that you put out a good product.That means the guys who train for a living bring over the best product they can bring. So the guys "in the business" are needed as well or there would be no fans. Chicken or the egg take your pick.

re: Clark Would Be Perfect Way For Curlin to Go Out

Racingfan — Thu, 06 Nov 2008 01:14:09 GMT

JORDAN A: I did not address my post to you so I am not sure why you responded in such a way. I addressed it to those who have stated that they ARE in the business but are apparently irritated with the debate. I felt their comments were rude as though people in the business do not have the right to voice their opinions. I personally think people who are not in the business, very much enjoy the chance to speak up and thus get to "feel" involved. I do! Anyone who has grown tired of it does not have to continue to read or post anything. I agree that SOME on here have gone over the top, which is why I said "for the most part" they are discussions of support of the favorite. I just didn't want to name names. As far as "only 1 post with my opinion being needed" that was my 3rd post - all on different subjects-including one about the Bloodhorse article on synthetics which I was hoping would open up a discussion. But let's see - you posted several more times than me - I guess what you have to say is much more important.

re: Clark Would Be Perfect Way For Curlin to Go Out

draynot — Wed, 05 Nov 2008 19:39:07 GMT

hey nay nay,

Let's examine your obscession with Big Brown and insistance that he was better than Curlin another way.

I believe that one very good way to gauge how good one was is to examine who they lost to.

Curlin was beaten by Street Sense (a 2 yr old HOY and a KY. Derby winner), Hard Spun (a top notch G1 horse as well), Any Given Saturday (at his best), Rags to Riches (one of the best Fillies to come along in years), Red Rocks (on the grass and against a former Breeders Cup Turf winner), Raven's Pass, Henrythenavigator, and Tiago on a surface Curlin clearly did not like but still came in at 1 1/4 miles under 2:00. What do all these have in common? They are ALL proven top notch G1 animals and each one could have whipped the Big Ole Browneye him or herself. A veritable who's who in racing the past two years.

Big Ole Browneye lost to Da'Tara (who?), Denis of Cork (who again?), Anak Nakal ( the who's keep growing), Ready's Echo (lost at a distance to this second tier sprinter), Macho Again (a split decision), Tale of Ekati (another nobody), Guadacanal, (LMAO a Maiden!!), and Ichabad Crane (any relation to Frazier?). This is not a good list. None of theses animals has gone on to beat any true G1 animal since kicking Brownies rear end.

The Big Ole Browneye falls short again in comparison. Give it up nay nay, there are so many ways he falls short.

re: Clark Would Be Perfect Way For Curlin to Go Out

JordanA — Wed, 05 Nov 2008 16:42:38 GMT

p.s. I think also what they and I as well have been referring to is the name calling and how nasty it's all become.

re: Clark Would Be Perfect Way For Curlin to Go Out

JordanA — Wed, 05 Nov 2008 16:41:20 GMT

Racingfan

I'm not 'in the business'. I'm a handicapper, gambler and fan. At some point it became ridiuclous.

Yes debate, discuss great. But it's down to nothing but petty bickering and a core of around 10 people reiterating the same stuff over and over and over again. If you think that's productive then so be it, I disagree.

Not one of those 'racing industry people' on here said they didn't appreciate the fans. But face it without the fans, there's just empty race tracks (hmmm look at Aqueduct lately?) The gamblers are what ultimately support this sport. Luckily I'm also a fan. I made my point and truthfully isn't one post with your point of view enough?

re: Clark Would Be Perfect Way For Curlin to Go Out

CURLINLOVER — Wed, 05 Nov 2008 12:33:17 GMT

Rechelle! Well put! Right on!

All your points are correct and pointing CURLIN toward HOY - No contest at all! No need for me to comment further. Thank you Rechelle!

GO CURLIN!!!!!!!!!

re: Clark Would Be Perfect Way For Curlin to Go Out

Racingfan — Wed, 05 Nov 2008 04:38:40 GMT

To those of you "in the business" who don't seem to like the debate here about which favorite horse should win HOY, you would do well to remember that without us fans you have no business. It is the dedication of loyal fans to the horses that keeps racing alive. For the most part these discussions are just everyone's way of expressing their interest and support of their favorite.

re: Clark Would Be Perfect Way For Curlin to Go Out

Rechelle — Tue, 04 Nov 2008 22:40:04 GMT

Matthew W, I'm not taking away from the BC Classic and its importance, but I'm saying Curlin WAS dominant enough this year that he should get HOY again. Zenyatta deserves all the credit in the world, but unfortunately, she ran in a year when Curlin was running and she never faced him. In order for her to win, she had to (A) face the boys or at least Curlin or (B) run in a season where there was NOT a dominant male. Curlin has done enough to win it. He won 2 races in Dubai, he won the Stephen Foster, he won the Woodward and he won the JCGC. As I said before, NO ONE was beating Raven's Pass, Henrythenavigator or Tiago that day. The surface was ideal for the Euros and Tiago ran the race of his life. Since June, Curlin has run a race a month (Stephen Foster in June, Man O'War in July, Woodward in August, JCGC in September and BC Classic in Oct). For horses that are no longer bred to run a race a month like the horses in Secretariat & Alysheba's days, that is a helluva schedule.

Curlin has done enough for HOY honors. Zenyatta falls short because she didn't face the defending HOY or the boys.

re: Clark Would Be Perfect Way For Curlin to Go Out

LDP — Tue, 04 Nov 2008 22:26:28 GMT

Matt W the BC should not matter so much that it takes away HOY from a horse that would've won it, but showed up in the cup to please the fans, even though the owner and trainer were dead set against it most of the year. That is not fair what so ever. We all pushed and pushed for Curlin to come, and when he did he ran his heart out and lost, basicly, to please the fans. Zenyatta, whom i love, did win her race, but you didn't see any big name Euro's running against her. If Zarkava had showed up the result could've been very different. Also did you notice that both her top challengers, GP and HL hated the surface. She beat a weaker field than curlin ran against. Especially since Curlin only got beat a total of 23/4 lengths by better prepared, and super star turf horses, Henry and RP, and a synthetic specialist who loved the Pro-ride. that is nothing to sneeze at. So in my viewpoint had the Euro's not been in the Classic, and Zen had she might've been in a photo with Curlin.

re: Clark Would Be Perfect Way For Curlin to Go Out

LDP — Tue, 04 Nov 2008 22:09:26 GMT

Dray you either missed my post, or you flat out ignored it, since i gave you seven great performances this year. Heres a question for you: name some stellar performances of BB when he was off the steroids, and name some of the o so great horses he beat, then say how much he won by? Remember, only the races he ran w/o steroids. No cheating.

re: Clark Would Be Perfect Way For Curlin to Go Out

Bradgm — Tue, 04 Nov 2008 20:28:55 GMT

Saratoga AJ, no this is definitely not debate, because the erroneous facts and repetition on here wouldn't win a middle school debate, let alone a Presidential debate (well maybe more of a chance there). I agree with a TRAINER who says it's ridiculous and only the parties who have something at stake are carrying signs and politicking for it.

Actually I don't think I've heard too many of them going at it like on here.

Wanda, That's the boss I figured. Was the kid in the corner bidding someoone with 50 girls hanging around, him? Handsome as heck, piercning blue eyes? If so that was our Jordy, not sure where he got the rest of the 5 mil from. Last I heard he didn't quite have that yet. Hey, if you win the lottery, there's your racing partner and boy toy all in one.

Your suggestion to these folks is excellent. I have a friend who is a guy that controls how many horses can be shipped to Mexico and I didn't ask what happens to the rest, that fate is bad enough.

Not too much brick out here, maybe we could get one shipped from Atthe, just hit ourselves over the head repeatedly with it.

re: Clark Would Be Perfect Way For Curlin to Go Out

Wanda — Tue, 04 Nov 2008 18:44:08 GMT

Jordan: that was you up in the corner out bidding me!

Brad: By the boss I mean the guy I wake up to for over 20 years. If I win the lottery I might look for a toy boy on the side.

Just like Whatamidoing and Atthebarn I'm saying again what is everyones stake in this? It's gone from chat to crazy chat. Lets leave it for now and oh by the way do you read about the new site for free TB's? Check it out and maybe get one to look after so you all will have something to do in your spare time. I just bought a filly for canner price that was headed to the feed lot. Where's that brick wall Att was talking about? I need it now!

re: Clark Would Be Perfect Way For Curlin to Go Out

Saratoga AJ — Tue, 04 Nov 2008 18:28:47 GMT

"If,IF,IF. My main point is WHAT does it matter to you folks? WHY would it matter SO MUCH that you'd argue for DAYS and DAYS over this"?

Whatamidoing: It's called debate via blogging...

re: Clark Would Be Perfect Way For Curlin to Go Out

MikeM — Tue, 04 Nov 2008 17:28:06 GMT

The fact of the matter is the bent shoe had nothing to do with BB being pulled up,eased,distanced,call it what you will. So please stop with the lame excuses.The only thing they will be talking about in ten years is BB's stud fee being $5m.

Curlin horse of the year by a head to Zenyatta.

re: Clark Would Be Perfect Way For Curlin to Go Out

CURLINLOVER — Tue, 04 Nov 2008 17:06:27 GMT

OK, Dranay!You ignorant fool! I was at Churchill Downs to see CURLIN win the Stephen Foster by 4 1/2 lenghts! Against good competition, I might add. He put in a stunning performance - very impressive win! Inform yourself before you put down other fans' horses; BB - and I've said it before - is a nobody with a body of work that seems good; but that's only because he had NO real competition at the time - not his fault; but the way it is. No HOY for poor BB! This was a weak 3-year old year. CURLIN won three grade I races in addition to his World Cup race ( and The Jaguar prep race). He raced against the best in the world! BB raced against the weakest fields. And BB got beaten by a filly too! If you can't see CURLIN as the great horse he's proven himself to be, you have a major problem and are continuously making a fool of yourself in addtion to aggravating a lot of people - incl. CURLIN fans. Why don't you just quit this nonsense and switch to something you know more about and where you won't annoy people the way you are now? By the way, I agree with SalemPoe saying that we horse fans should stick together with things the way they are. So, without Dranay, we might just be able to do so!

GO CURLIN !!!!!!!!!!!!

re: Clark Would Be Perfect Way For Curlin to Go Out

Whatamidoing — Tue, 04 Nov 2008 17:03:17 GMT

"As a racing traditionalist, one who has studied it's history and seen all the great ones in person since the mighty Kelso, this is "case closed" as far as I'm concerned. So at the expense of sounding redundant, this is my last blog on the subject. We'll see who wins after the voting is in.

Saratoga AJ 03 Nov 2008 6:42 AM"

AJ, you became redundant about 3 comments prior to this one.CASE CLOSED you say, well that's good to hear, guess you have your ballot all filled out and mailed in. But wait they aren't even out yet.

You folks are FAR MORE STIRRED UP about this than us racetrackers are. What is your stake in it? JUST A DESIRE TO BE RIGHT? SAY I TOLD YOU SO? Well who are you telling it too? Certainly nobody who does this every day for a living has more than a passing interest in it. I made ONE comment, would have stayed out of it further except to clarify my comment about Azeri. She was a female who did not run against the males, my point because Jason said he didn't care if it had been voted that way before. Well it has, he knows that, he is rational because this stuff is his JOB. See a trend here folks.

Other than Curlin's victory in Dubai, which shouldn't really be that much of a factor since it's not in North America, he was not hugely impressive and he couldn't win when it counted, for him the BC. If the races out of the country are what we take into consideration then a horse like Raven's Pass should be considered, if Zarkava would have been a U.S. based horse and run here once should all of her other victories have made her horse of the year?

If,IF,IF. My main point is WHAT does it matter to you folks? WHY would it matter SO MUCH that you'd argue for DAYS and DAYS over this?

re: Clark Would Be Perfect Way For Curlin to Go Out

Rechelle — Tue, 04 Nov 2008 14:53:05 GMT

Draynay, let's see ... Curlin at the Dubai or Big Brown at the Derby??

Big Brown ran the Derby on steriods. Curlin ran the Dubai drug free. I think it's a no brainer ... Curlin at the Dubai!

WHO did Big Brown beat this season?!?!?!? Can you tell me that?? Who did Big Brown beat that was better than an allowance horse at the time of the race? The answer - NO ONE!!! Colonel John didn't improve until the summer and if BB would've faced Colonel John again, he would've lost that race. BB's connections realize that he was NOT the horse they thought he was, hence why he ran the Haskell against a weak field instead of the Travers against a much better field (ducking Colonel John and Pyro) and then ran an ALLOWANCE turf race. BB does NOT deserve HOY!! Plus, BB's loss at the Belmont was HIS own fault, he broke poorly, broke into a maiden horse because he got spooked. THAT's why his shoe got dislodged.

Give it up. BB will NOT be HOY and I think he'll be lucky to get 3yo champion of the year when his last half of it, he lost the Belmont and then rather than facing possible competition, ran against weak fields and still nearly lost the Haskell. Colonel John did more in the Travers and was much more exciting to watch than BB was after he was off the steriods!!

re: Clark Would Be Perfect Way For Curlin to Go Out

SalemPoe — Tue, 04 Nov 2008 13:26:08 GMT

As for me, I'm going to let the pros choose. I have my own opinions on most horses, naturally, including Curlin, Big Brown and Zenyatta. I am just amazed at how quickly horse racing fans will tear each other apart. At a time when racing is so criticized by the outside world, fans should stand together to support the sport, no matter which horses you do or don't like. Finally, I am in awe of all of these gorgeous animals, but honestly, my favorite is my racehorse ;)

re: Clark Would Be Perfect Way For Curlin to Go Out

draynot — Tue, 04 Nov 2008 12:40:08 GMT

Curlin at Dubai without a doubt. Curlin travelled halfway across the world to a climate like he had never seen before and tore them all a new one. The Big Ole Browneye went to Kentucky and had a cakewalk against the weakest group I have ever seen run in a Derby. No comparison.