Q&A With Zenyatta Trainer John Shirreffs

re: Q&A With Zenyatta Trainer John Shirreffs

Alex JH — Mon, 17 Nov 2008 00:27:35 GMT

LDP

Not sure where this comment fits in??

However as far as Jess retiring the colt. He wanted the record, also the ownership was muddied and Jess put the bid in for the jailbirds share. Everyone involved in racing figured that was what would happen, those were the stories on the backside.

Do You REALLY think what fans on blogs say about the horses affects 50-100 million decisions?

Sorry but that's a little delusional.

I really don't think a business man of Jackson's wealth and stature would keep a horse in training based on the ladies and gents comments on here about the grueling year and the heroism of the colt. Not when 100 Million is staring you in the face and the colt could be injured if he kept running. Even if Jess is one of the richest guys in the world.

re: Q&A With Zenyatta Trainer John Shirreffs

LDP — Sun, 16 Nov 2008 19:01:43 GMT

Well we all weren't there were we, but honestly from the way everyone does talk about Curlin, it's safe to assume that's what he meant. You know i'm not all that surprise Curlins being retired. JJ brings Curlin back for the fans, and all some people can do is harp on the horse no matter what he does. It gets annoying and JJ probably thinks that we don't want Curlin back, thanks to some of the negativity. Tell me what you'd do if somebody told you they really wanted you to do something, then when you did all people could do was point out how weak you are, what your doing wrong all the time. Would you do it again? NO. JJ probably feels the people don't appreciate what Curlin is, what he's done, so why bother bringing him back, maybe he'd be more appriciated in the breeding shed. Maybe if we had stopped harping on the horse and connections, and actually praised and enjoyed him, showing that we do appriciate him, JJ wouldn't be retiring him.

re: Q&A With Zenyatta Trainer John Shirreffs

Rod — Fri, 14 Nov 2008 17:26:54 GMT

I'm glad they're keeping Zenyatta in training next year. I still don't think we've seen the best of her and racing really needs its stars on the track. So much emphasis has moved over to the breeding side of the ledger that it's no wonder horse racing is on the decline in the U.S. We need another long-tenured champion mare on the track, along the lines of Bayakoa (raced till 7), Paseana (raced till 8), Escena (raced through 5) Beautiful Pleasure (raced through 6) and Azeri (raced through 6). Some of my all-time faves are the ones who raced at least through age 5 - male or female. Racing needs its stars on the track and I'm hoping Zenyatta knocks 'em off their feet again in 2009. I'd also love it if her connections took a shot by taking on the boys. Based off of Beyers, she could have won the Hollywood Gold Cup and Pacific Classic in '08...

re: Q&A With Zenyatta Trainer John Shirreffs

Alex JH — Thu, 13 Nov 2008 17:10:15 GMT

schabelli, no he was hyping Zenyatta, Knowing John, he meant it as a subtle, tongue in cheek promotion of HIS horse, not the horse that actually ran against Wanderin Boy..... Why would he do that?

Also, please leave the politics off the racing board.

re: Q&A With Zenyatta Trainer John Shirreffs

schabelli — Wed, 12 Nov 2008 20:16:08 GMT

LDP, It's called diplomacy.

Contrary to the repuglican way of always demeaning, questioning, and running down an opponent it's a gentleman's way of conceding a point but not conceding the prize. Always being negative (see McBush campaign ) doesn't work so well anymore.

I'm quite sure he believes his filly is worthy of the award on her own merit and has no desire to bad mouth (nay nay) the competition.

re: Q&A With Zenyatta Trainer John Shirreffs

LDP — Wed, 12 Nov 2008 02:13:52 GMT

schabelli, if he really did mean to say it like that, then fine, i don't really mind it, but he's trying to make a case for Zen to be HOY, so for me it's kinda hard to believe he'd be saying that curlin faced tougher than she did.

re: Q&A With Zenyatta Trainer John Shirreffs

schabelli — Tue, 11 Nov 2008 17:31:49 GMT

It's all in how you read it folks.

I read the comment as Zenyatta didn't meet any as tough as Wanderin Boy. Shirreffs says she beat tough fillies but didn't have to go against any Wanderin Boys, to me he is conceding that Wanderin Boy was tougher than she met. Afterall Wanderin Boy was awarded a Beyer Fig of 112-114 for his last effort against Curlin. That's higher than any Big Brown ever ran so it ain't bad my friends. Wanderin Boy is no slouch and I think he was pointing that out.

re: Q&A With Zenyatta Trainer John Shirreffs

Katsan — Fri, 07 Nov 2008 16:48:32 GMT

Wanda, Thanks, great to be here. After the last month and all of our losses, the brother in law didn't make it after all. So right now I feel lucky and blessed to be anywhere.

That's what makes me think even more that we just should appreciate the horses fow WHO they are and for what THEY have done on an individual basis.

I've been reading and laugh at you and the boys wanting to win the lottery. Actually I should have told you all that I was one of the small group that hit the 206 million here last month! I think they'll be fine, most of us out here are hardworking, pioneer spirit people who haven't had the easiest lives. But dang I wish I would've been part of the group. I could have bought Stardom Bound, kept her out of the evil clutches of .... Oh well, at least steroids have been banned.

re: Q&A With Zenyatta Trainer John Shirreffs

Wanda — Fri, 07 Nov 2008 14:46:01 GMT

Katsan: great comments and how are you? Nice to see you on here again.

I can't see comparing races that way either. IF this or IF that. All you can do is look at who ran and where they finished. That's why I got out of showing horses and into racing 100 years ago. The better horse that day crosses the finish line first period.

re: Q&A With Zenyatta Trainer John Shirreffs

Racingfan — Fri, 07 Nov 2008 05:14:57 GMT

I love Zenyatta - I think she's awesome and I REALLY hope she races next year! And from what I've read, her owners, trainer and jockey are all really terrific people so I'm very happy for them that they have gotten to go on this tremendous ride with this wonderful filly! I would like to mention though to everyone who has changed the subject - this post was about Zenyatta. Why can't it be left that way....? All the debate about the others really belongs on a blog debating who is the best doesn't it? We all have our favorites but can't we stay at least somewhat on the subject?

re: Q&A With Zenyatta Trainer John Shirreffs

Matthew W — Fri, 07 Nov 2008 01:28:23 GMT

Just A Fan---who won when it counted MOST??

re: Q&A With Zenyatta Trainer John Shirreffs

katsan — Fri, 07 Nov 2008 00:16:23 GMT

I'm not saying all of the voters are heartless. But some are and some base it strictly on how the horse performed in big races. Not necessarily Beyers etc, some that aren't handicappers don't even buy into that philosophy and even call it into question. That's their way of thinking. I just think hearts don't enter into it very much with the majority of voters (once again not ALL).

Now if your'e talking about politics, yes. Do they like the trainer? Have they had a run in with them etc.

The fans and the connections of the various horses are the ones whose heart strings are usually pulled by the horses.

NOt saying all writers are heartless cynics, but when you add into the equation that they are looking at so many horses each year it can become just about the hard facts and once again I've heard many of them dismiss speed figures etc.

Like Householder said, Zenyatta would probably have won the classic mostly because her patented move is perfect for the way the track was playing on Breeders Cup weekend.

Personally I think we should just be happy for John, the Moss's and of course my hometown boy Mikey Smith that Zenyatta ran so sensationally this year.

The HOY has been discussed, cussed and re-cussed to the point of redundancy on another blog.

Let's just celebrate the filly for all SHE did this year.

If there's a q&a with Curlin's connections within the next 2 months we can celebrate his acheivements then.

re: Q&A With Zenyatta Trainer John Shirreffs

Just A Fan — Thu, 06 Nov 2008 21:05:34 GMT

Kat, thank you. I did notice that Jason only addressed the first part of my post and not the second. HOY should be about MORE than just the wins, although those should be taken into consideration obviously. Curlin has done more for this sport than Zenyatta has. He has been tested on more racing surfaces. He has been to more states and different tracks than Zenyatta has. After the death of Eight Belles, he has bolstered this sport and the morale of fans simply by running. Should Curlin be penalized because he didn't face better caliber horses? He ran in the Woodward and the JCGC, both races that normally attract much better horses than they did this year. Should he be penalized because other trainers didn't want to run their horses against him?

Whereas Zenyatta, the best she faced was Ginger Punch. Yes, last season Ginger Punch was amazing. This season, she was never the same.

I'll be happy if either one wins, since they are both incredible, but in all fairness, I think Curlin deserves it more. He's done more, shown more grit and was entered into races not necessarily in his comfort zone. Zenyatta is a Cali horse, and left the state once. She never faced the colts and other than Azeri, the two other fillies who won HOY faced and beat the boys.

re: Q&A With Zenyatta Trainer John Shirreffs

Kat — Thu, 06 Nov 2008 19:22:02 GMT

I think you have missed Racing Fan's point. The second paragraph (after making the comment about if Curlin had won the Japan Cup)begins with the statement HOY is not just about being undefeated.

And I agree with the point above about Ginger Punch this year. Interesting how Zenyatta is measured against Ginger Punch simply as last year's champion. She also finished 3rd at Oaklawn, 2nd in Beldame, and SIXTH in the classic. And look what finishing 4th in the BCC has done to Curlin's status (and face it, Tiago wouldn't have passed him if RA had ridden Curlin to the wire, but oh well). Seems a slightly different "math" is being used.

If HOY is based on performance, better recheck past performances for beyer speed figures, etc.

That's more objective. Unfortunately, there is no criteria for HOY and that's what all the back and forth is about. It's a battle for hearts and minds.

re: Q&A With Zenyatta Trainer John Shirreffs

Householder — Thu, 06 Nov 2008 19:07:46 GMT

Let's be honest...Zenyatta could have won the Breeder's Cup Classic and the Culin camp would still be making a case for HIS HOY award (e.g., How could he loose to a Filly? He did not like the track, Was it an ill timed ride? Were the lack of fractions too much, he's gone to Dubai, he's won 10 million, etc. etc. etc). Tiago finished in front of Curlin and everyone pretty much dismisses that act as some kind of fluke. Call it better prep, better training, better spots...Tiago beat Curlin that day. Shirreff's can add this to his list of accomplishments.

re: Q&A With Zenyatta Trainer John Shirreffs

Rechelle — Thu, 06 Nov 2008 18:19:35 GMT

Katsan, if I'm not mistaken, Curlin is nominated for the race in Japan. I just don't know if Jackson is going to run Curlin again or give him a much deserved break. Personally, I'd love to see him run again this season.

re: Q&A With Zenyatta Trainer John Shirreffs

Jason Shandler — Thu, 06 Nov 2008 17:37:06 GMT

It's OK Katsan. You did a fine job of expressing your points. It makes sense.

re: Q&A With Zenyatta Trainer John Shirreffs

katsan — Thu, 06 Nov 2008 17:16:34 GMT

Sorry Jason, I was composing my post before your's was posted and I think I stepped on your IF's

I think a lot of the talk is wishful thinking and like the saying goes IF wishes were wings pigs would fly.

re: Q&A With Zenyatta Trainer John Shirreffs

katsan — Thu, 06 Nov 2008 17:13:52 GMT

Brad, no that wasn't me. You're correct only the people involved with the horse really know what kind of track they prefer and sometimes it takes trial and error to figure it out.

This story was as much or more about Zenyatta's performance and the fact that John is thrilled that the filly is a shoe-in for distaff champ.

Just a Fan, the HOY is just a minor part of it. What a horse has done for racing, is that a part of the criteria for voting horse of the year? I believe it's based on performance more than anything. Those who vote and I've talked to a couple and Jason has expressed his opinion say that. They also say a filly doesn't have to beat the males to win the award and they're the ones who vote.

It's not about the drama and the other stories like that because conversely you could say that Zenyatta did a lot to make people realize how great fillies and mares can be.

Also you can say Curlin didn't do much for horse racing because Steve got another positive, they showed that HBO special again and opened up all the questions around drugging horses.

If you're looking at storylines, the minority and original owners were disbarred, are in jail for bilking the people they were supposed to be helping, how much has THAT done for racing.

Face it Jess Jackson isn't as altruistic as we might think, it's difficult to syndicate the colt when there is a court ordered sale and you don't know who your partners are. I have a hunch the courts wouldn't have allowed him to sell to Lane's End, Three Chimmney's etc.

If you're talking about giving the award based on what the horse has done for racing, that theory would say give it to Eight Belle's. She had a fabulous race record, beat all the 'boys' but one and her death probably spurred as much change as this industry has seen in many years.

This all just proves that it's about the performance of the horse, they won when it counted.

IF means nothing because it would open up everything to pure speculation. IF Big Brown would have won the Triple Crown, IF Curlin would have run and won the ARC

IF Zenyatta would have run in the Classic and won.

As far as the Japan Cup, it's not run until December, Curlin could potentially still run in it, if he was nominated. IF he was to do so and was badly beaten, what then?

Like Jason said, it comes down to showing up and winning the races when they need to be won, winning them like a champion, not just at the Breeders Cup. The move that Zenyatta made, her style was perfectly suited to the track.

Plus where is it written that only the horses in the Classic division are eligible for Horse of the Year?

re: Q&A With Zenyatta Trainer John Shirreffs

Jason Shandler — Thu, 06 Nov 2008 16:45:07 GMT

Just A Fan: My middle school basketball coach used to have a saying - "If IF was a horse we could all take a ride."

Translation: There is no point of talking abouts "ifs?" Only talk about what you have done.

The excuses for Curlin are getting ridiculous. Now, we are going to say he would have won the Japan Cup if he didn't "mistakenly" go to the BC Classic? Absurd. He showed up. He finished off the board and there is no changing that.

BTW, in my opinion, IF Point Given raced as a 4-year-old he would have been the most dominant older horse in the last 25 years. IF only...

re: Q&A With Zenyatta Trainer John Shirreffs

Just A Fan — Thu, 06 Nov 2008 16:34:37 GMT

I have one question for everyone in regards to Curlin ...

If he had skipped the BC Classic and run in Japan instead and won, which is what Jess Jackson wanted to do, would we even be having a debate between Curlin and Zenyatta for HOY?

HOY should be about more than being undefeated, it should be about what the horse has done for racing. In a year where racing took a major hit with the death of the wonderful filly Eight Belles, Curlin did more to restore faith in racing and to bolster the fans. Zenyatta is fantastic, but she isn't another Ruffian, nor a Personal Ensign, nor Lady's Secret nor Rags to Riches, nor any other filly who deserves to be considered a truly great horse. All around, the horses this year were not the best, with many of them taken of steriods. Ginger Punch certainly was not the same horse she was a year ago and that is the "best" horse that Zenyatta beat.

re: Q&A With Zenyatta Trainer John Shirreffs

shane — Thu, 06 Nov 2008 15:19:12 GMT

If we are comparing the two horses as equals.....switch the competition for the year. Would curlin have gone undefeated against her competition? Would she have gone undefeated in the races he ran? I think he cold have won the races that she won (if we are making them equal) I dont feel that she would have beaten the europeans in that classic race; it was to much of a turf race period. That horse ran 1 1/4 miles for the first team and didnt take a second breath I have never seen that on dirt. If he was so good on the dirt he would have stayed here and run in the triple crown. All to say that Curlin deserves HOY cant knock him for challenging others in their commfort zone

re: Q&A With Zenyatta Trainer John Shirreffs

Matthew W — Thu, 06 Nov 2008 05:44:38 GMT

Sherreffs was NOT cheap-shotting anybody--Wanderin Boy is 99-1 in The Classic! Get over it and smell the meaning! He's pimping his ride/and THAT IS PART OF HIS JOB!

re: Q&A With Zenyatta Trainer John Shirreffs

Ranagulzion — Thu, 06 Nov 2008 05:30:46 GMT

Eclipse awards for divisional champions are intended for horses that are clearly superior in their division but the HOTY title should go to the overall star performer who has repeatedly won (not necessarily every single race) competing amongst the very best in the sport. When the open competition is weak and lacklustre and a divisional champion is extraordinarily brilliant for example when 2yos Secretariat and Favoutite Trick won the HOTY and when Azeri(Distaff champion) won HOTY it is understandable. But is that the case this year?

Not in every aspect, I don't think. Zenyatta's brilliance and dominance of her division is only one consideration, let's be honest.

re: Q&A With Zenyatta Trainer John Shirreffs

Householder — Wed, 05 Nov 2008 23:49:52 GMT

Shirreffs is a master. He had Tiago cranked up all year facing the "Best in the West"...Heatseeker, Go Between, Well Armed and had him in FRONT of Curlin when it mattered.