Who Will Be the 3-Year-Old Filly Champion?

re: Who Will Be the 3-Year-Old Filly Champion?

SmartyJones4Ever — Fri, 21 Nov 2008 22:14:09 GMT

Between these 2, its tough, but I agree with choosing Proud Spell. But I REALLY think Eight Belles should win or at least be nominated. I mean, she got second in the KENTUCKY DERBY! That has to be equal to or, actually, EVEN BETTER than winning the Oaks. She beat EIGHTEEN COLTS, and lost to Big Brown, THREE-YEAR-OLD-COLT-OF-THE-YEAR!!! Indian Blessing should also be a candidate for her amazing season, including racing against older horses.

re: Who Will Be the 3-Year-Old Filly Champion?

LDP — Tue, 18 Nov 2008 22:17:25 GMT

Matt, i don't think the Synthetics affected him as much as many do, i just plain hate synthetic, because of the plain and simple fact that a properly maintained dirt track is just as good or better than a synthetic. I also think that synthetics are a cover up, for what has happened to the breed. Because we breed for speed, not soundness and endurence, give our horses steroids, has greatly weakened the breed. I think if we correct all that then their is no need for a new surface. No other champion of the past has had to run on synthetics, though they have on mud. My point about the championships being held in slop last year, was that we humans have no control over that, but over synthetics we do. Last year normally the horse that deserved to win did, i don't think that happened so much this year. When i say the horse that deserved to win i mean somewhere in the top four favorites. For instance indian blessing, war pass, english channel was well favored, and so was Curlin. Corinthian had a good shot, Midnight Lute won too, the list goes on and on. I'm not saying the horse behind them were in perfect order, but the ones who were supposed to win or had a legit shot at winning did, this year i didn't see that. You can differ with me if you want i'm open to your opinion.

re: Who Will Be the 3-Year-Old Filly Champion?

Matthew W — Tue, 18 Nov 2008 01:41:57 GMT

Rechelle Ginger Punch won a string of GR 1's this year/lost by a nose to Cocoa Beach...Yeah she was sure showing signs of decline---NOT! Her four races leading up to THIS YEARS CUP were better than her form LAST YEAR!! Cocoa Beach is a monster! Practically unbeaten v tough competition! I hope to see her next year!

re: Who Will Be the 3-Year-Old Filly Champion?

Matthew W — Tue, 18 Nov 2008 01:37:15 GMT

LDP the slop at Monmouth was natural (organic) vs The Pro Ride of this year's Cup--But no way was it a more fair track simply because it was natural! And YES they DID run championship races on "that crap"! And YES that's why they sent out the best Euros--In recent years The Breeders Cup has been hard-challenged by Dubai World Cup---BECAUSE of Pro Ride, this years Breeders Cup was a GRAND SLAM over anything they've had in UAE---You make excuses over excuses because of Pro Ride yet you just seem to brush aside any excuses for last years sticky mud at Monmouth! That tells me there's no arguing with you about that and thats sad, cuz synthetics are here to stay---and I'm a fellow Curlin Lover!!!

re: Who Will Be the 3-Year-Old Filly Champion?

Rechelle — Mon, 17 Nov 2008 14:54:52 GMT

Matthew, who did Cocoa Beach beat, really? A Ginger Punch who was on her downslide? Who else? Really, Cocoa Beach had NO competition in that race. By that point, Ginger Punch was showing that she was not the same horse she was last season, which is absolutely no disrespect to her, since I love her & think she's a fabolous mare, but one who was past her peak. So yeah, Cocoa Beach won it but against WHO?

re: Who Will Be the 3-Year-Old Filly Champion?

LDP — Sun, 16 Nov 2008 23:24:57 GMT

Matt, i am sorry, but i don't use any of the tools most of you people do for handicapping, just what i know about horses. So please don't laugh when i ask, but what do you mean by did i go "back" and look at the form charts. In answer no i didn't.

re: Who Will Be the 3-Year-Old Filly Champion?

LDP — Sun, 16 Nov 2008 23:21:22 GMT

Matt, i never meant to dis anyone. Just get mad at some of the comments made about him, and sometimes loose my temper and don't read what i type. Zen is spectacular, i do agree with you there, BB well lets agree to disagree, K. Curlin has gotten me excited like no other horse has, not even Bernardini or Barbaro, and my heart broke for both, once when Barbaro broke down and the other when Bernardini lost his Classic. Now it breaks into peices, now that they are going to retire Curlin. You have no idea how much i loved watching him run, and how under appricated i think he was by many. I will miss him greatly, and wish so much they'd give him one more year.

re: Who Will Be the 3-Year-Old Filly Champion?

Slew.em.All — Sun, 16 Nov 2008 19:40:10 GMT

Rechelle: again I ask,...WHO runs their horse in the KY.Oaks,1st start of the year after a 6 month lay-off?..NOBODY if they know what their doing!..So don't hold THAT allowance race against her,it was the next logical race for her after breaking her maiden in Nov.07'..and look at the Gr.1 races she dominated after her "prep".

Music Note "lost to an unproven filly on American soil"..What?..Cocoa Beach had just beaten Ginger Punch in the Gr.1 Beldame,so that classifies her as a Proven Horse,I think.

Proud Spell is a Solid Filly,but she ONLY won half of her races,and LOST to Gr.2/3 type fillies in the process.These same horses that PS lost to,MN would've Destroyed em',period!..All in All look at their record this year: Music Note's only blemishes are a scant nose defeat to Proud Spell,and a Solid 3rd to 2 Solid Filles(outside of NY,too).While Proud Spell had numerous losses to less than stellar competition..please don't mention the sprinter Indian Blessing.

re: Who Will Be the 3-Year-Old Filly Champion?

Matthew W — Sun, 16 Nov 2008 19:27:22 GMT

LDP Yes but you'll NEVER hear me dis Curlin--Indeed, I threw back Drays disses of "The Big C" EVEN THOUGH I agreed with him as to Big Brown's superiority! But you cannot watch Curlin and NOT percieve greatness! Curlin has old time stamina/no doubt about it, and he'll quickly rise to the top in Kentucky breeding circles, God willing! When I tout Zenyatta for HOY/Big Brown as best since 'Bid---In no way am I dissing Curlin! I love Curlin and all he represents!

re: Who Will Be the 3-Year-Old Filly Champion?

Matthew W — Sun, 16 Nov 2008 19:18:39 GMT

LDP have you gone "back" to the form charts? I did, and I'll admit I was lacking in my handicapping skills---My exacta was Curlin--Tiago....But Henrythenavigator was even money vs Goldikove in an 11 horse field just seven weeks before BCup/Ravens Pass was right there v Henry--They were both the class of English Racing 3yolds!! And Euros were strong this year! Team Curlin waffled too long and they were outcoached! That's my opinion--if thety do their homework (instead of beating up on Wanderin Boy) Curlins a two time HOY!

re: Who Will Be the 3-Year-Old Filly Champion?

Matthew W — Sun, 16 Nov 2008 19:11:46 GMT

Rechelle Cocoa Beach won Beldame in her 2nd start in states/on a wet-fast speed favoring track---I'd say that AND her subsequent 2nd to Zenyatta makes her WAY LEGIT!! Instead of "penalizing" her for too few starts, wonder aloud how many fillies can win Beldame in her 2nd start! And LDP saying Zenyatta has "no chance" sounds like a dis to me but thats just me!

re: Who Will Be the 3-Year-Old Filly Champion?

LDP — Sun, 16 Nov 2008 18:53:05 GMT

Curlin will get older horse of the year because of his consistent beating of others before the BC. Matt it rains sometimes, and we can either run our horses on it or not, but mud is a natural surface, the synthetic crap is not. We should not call a race a championship race, if the surface is pretty much untested. Mud isn't untested, it's wet dirt. HOY has always been decided on dirt, whether it's been on mud or a fast track, it's been on dirt. Now were going to change it all of a sudden and say it's going on synthetics??? no you can't do that it's down right stupid. Half the horses didn't even show up, look at proud spell and commentator. Those horses would've shown on Cup day had it been run on dirt, rain or shine. You want to decide a HOY the deciding race on a natural, not man made, surface.

re: Who Will Be the 3-Year-Old Filly Champion?

Matthew W — Sun, 16 Nov 2008 17:16:39 GMT

I'm saying her 3rd place in Ladies Classic was good enough for 3yo filly of the year---Just like Curlin's 4th place fin is good enough for Older horse of year--I don't see any inconsistency in that---to say if Music Note gete filly award then Curlin gets HOY---thats just skewed logic! Curlin got his last year on a track most horses didn't handle---I had no arguments then and I want no excuses this year--thats all I'm saying....

re: Who Will Be the 3-Year-Old Filly Champion?

LDP — Sun, 16 Nov 2008 14:07:17 GMT

Matt

I have dised nobody, i have nothing but respect for Zen, i just point out the facts of what both her and Curlin have done. Honestly last years classic i do not consider a freak show as much this years. My POV is that horses run in mud, it happens sometimes, and if you can handle it then more points to you, Curlin could, proving his versitlity on dirt. SS is a fantastic horse, but less versitle a horse on dirt than Curlin, Curlin gets the edge. This year man has make up a stupid synthetic track, to say they are doing a good thing for the sport, but really a good maintained dirt track is just as good or better than synthetics. My point last year was mother natures doing, which happens, horses have to deal with it at times, but some dumb man made surface that is basicly brown turf, no. The greats didn't have to be great to win on synthetics, or turf. All they needed to do is prove on gods good dirt, or turf either one, that they could take their game on the road and run on soft, fast, firm, good, muddy, or sloppy. They didn't have to race on every surface to be considered great.

O, and i rememeber when i did get kinda nasty bout Zen, i am sorry. I get kinda mad when i read all the people dising the horse i have supported ever since i first saw him race (the rebel). I know two rights don't make a wrong, but before you do tell me i'm being rude and bias, look at what some other people put up against Curlin, that are for BB or Zen, and you can see why i get so fired up.

re: Who Will Be the 3-Year-Old Filly Champion?

Rechelle — Sun, 16 Nov 2008 07:24:54 GMT

Matthew, Cocoa Beach has run 3 races *in the States*!! I don't care about her record out of the country. She ran 3 races total in the States. She won the Love Sign which is what, an allowance? It certainly isn't a graded or stakes race. She won the Beldame and then beat Music Note in the Breeders Cup. One grade stakes race does not make a fine record. It either makes it luck or she'll be a great horse next season. We'll see. Fact remains, Music Note lost to an unproven filly on American soil.

re: Who Will Be the 3-Year-Old Filly Champion?

Rechelle — Sun, 16 Nov 2008 07:18:49 GMT

Rod, the other fact to consider with Music Note is she has NEVER won this season away from Belmont. That also takes away from her deserving to win the 3yo Filly. As for Proud Spell & the BC, I don't think they realized when they started the season how much Proud Spell detested artificial surfaces. Proud Spell did enough this season to win 3yo Filly. Music Note was beaten by an unproven filly in Cocoa Beach. Yes, I agree Cocoa Beach may be great, but she may also be terrible, she wasn't racing very good fillies, the 2 best in that race were Zenyatta and Music Note and she lost to Zenyatta and beat Music Note. That takes away from Music Note's bid for 3yo filly as well.

As I said previously, Music Note's first race this season came 2 or 3 weeks after the Kentucky Oaks. If the connections were planning her start in May, they should have ran the Kentucky Oaks and not an allowance race at Belmont. Had she run and done well, even if she didn't beat Proud Spell, that'd have looked better than her first race being an allowance race on the only track she's ever won at this season. She's not just a one state horse, she's a one TRACK horse, having lost at Saratoga. That takes away her shot at 3yo filly in my opinion (which doesn't count in the final say of things).

re: Who Will Be the 3-Year-Old Filly Champion?

Matthew W — Sun, 16 Nov 2008 03:50:20 GMT

LDP you don't get my irony! What I'm saying is when you finish 4th in The Classic and make excuses like "he didn't like the track"--then you also have to say Street Sense is HOY! And Rechelle Cocoa Beach "for crying out loud?" Cocoa Beach has a fine record! Finally LDP--When you dis a horse like Zenyatta/who hasn't even been beaten that just proves my theory that you are way too biased! She'd have "no chance"? Dream on, my friend!

re: Who Will Be the 3-Year-Old Filly Champion?

LDP — Sat, 15 Nov 2008 22:16:02 GMT

Matt, Street Sence didn't take on older horses and win against them twice, like Curlin. SS lost in the Preakness to Curlin, who finished top three in all of the TC races. SS didn't even show in the Belmont. SS had lost his prep against HS coming into the Classic. SS also won the Derby, Tavers, Jim Dandy, and the TB Derby. HS finished in the money in all the TC races, won the lanes end, Won the beat SS in his prep for the classic. Curlin finishes top three in all TC races, wins the Rebel, AK Derby, JCGC. At this point the horses are all equal and the classic was that year the proving ground. The horse that got that win would lock up HOY, because of how tight it was to begin with, and Curlin won in style, proving he doesn't need a fast track and he can handle mud too. That is what seperated him from the rest. That is why he got HOY.

re: Who Will Be the 3-Year-Old Filly Champion?

LDP — Sat, 15 Nov 2008 22:03:57 GMT

Sorry Alex, i meant that to be to Slewemall, like this post aswell. Slew it is not speculation, if it is proven, all her wins have come in NY, none outside. Until she proves otherwise, she is a one state horse.

re: Who Will Be the 3-Year-Old Filly Champion?

LDP — Sat, 15 Nov 2008 22:01:35 GMT

Alex, Zen has not raced them, and i'd bet you on any surface, maybe other that dirt, those two horses would whip Zen. I also sure as the i'm standing here today, that if she race Zarkava, that Zen wouldn't have a prayer in the world. Until Zen proves she can race against top competion everywhere, and of every gender she is not as good as any of the horses mentioned above.

re: Who Will Be the 3-Year-Old Filly Champion?

Rod — Sat, 15 Nov 2008 19:20:43 GMT

So I'm not one to think the BC is the "be all end all" of racing, but its concept was to bring the best of the sport in each racing year together to decide the best of the best on the track.

Rechelle, I agree that in this day and age, a race a month for 8 months is probably as much as you can expect from the modern day thoroughbred, and again, I'll go on record as saying that I think PS would be a deserving Eclipse winner, but what gets me about her campaign is that her connections could have started her one month later in the year so that her last race of the year was in the Distaff, OR, if they knew ahead of time that they never intended to run her in the Distaff (which it sounds like they definitely knew), then they needed to get her additional G1 wins to bolster her claim to the title - like Mineshaft's connections did in 2003 when they purposely skipped the Classic. In that case, skip the DE Oaks and run back in the CCA Oaks, or skip the Cotillion and run back in the Gazelle - another G1 win in either of those races (likely over Music Note, one would have to assume) and suddenly, her case looks much more solid.

If you're BC-eligible, it just seems a bit unsportsmanlike to not bring a legitimate contender to the BC. After all, when it's been run on a traditional dirt track, how many times have we seen Europeans attempt the Classic?

Objectively, I really can see either filly winning with no injustice done. I just hope both come back next year to duke it out on the track.

One more thing, after seeing Cocoa Beach win the Beldame and then running a bang up second in the Distaff, I think we have to consider that she's got game and we have to look at her closely next year. I too was skeptical about her win in the Beldame, but after seeing her race in the Distaff, where she made Zenyatta run all the way down to the wire, I've started to reconsider my opinion of her.

re: Who Will Be the 3-Year-Old Filly Champion?

Alex JH — Sat, 15 Nov 2008 19:20:24 GMT

"Put Music Note in any race outside of NY and the same thing that happened in the BC happens to her.

Put her in any race THIS YEAR outside of Belmont and what HAPPENED at Saratoga, happens."

Slew,

NO I DID NOT SAY IF I SAID WHEN, I said this is what HAPPENED when she was taken out of NEW YORK, not what may happen, if, whatever or maybe. THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED IN THE PAST YEAR. HISTORY, FACT.

If you're going to dispute me at least read what I posted. I said this was what happened in the PAST YEAR 2008........

re: Who Will Be the 3-Year-Old Filly Champion?

Slew.em.All — Sat, 15 Nov 2008 16:32:06 GMT

Alex JH: you SAID,if you put her in any race outside of NY she loses..NOW THAT's speculation.Just because she travelled once and finished 3rd to 2 Solid Fillies doesn't mean she can't win outside of NY.

And LDP: your the one that said,Ravens Pass and Henrythenavigator are Much better horses than Zenyatta,on turf maybe?....rest my case!

re: Who Will Be the 3-Year-Old Filly Champion?

Rechelle — Sat, 15 Nov 2008 16:06:28 GMT

Matthew, the Breeders Cup committee as well as the people who vote for the Eclipse already knew some of the top horses in the country were NOT going to the Breeders Cup because of the track and the surface. Proud Spell was one of those and the only reason Curlin ran was because of pressure from the fans to face BB, who scratched due to an injury. So this year and most likely next, the ENTIRE body of work has to be considered, not just the Breeders Cup. OH WAIT, it already IS considered! You act like the Breeders Cup is the end all of the Eclipse. Doesn't matter what the rest of the season looked like, it matters how they did at ONE race?!?!?! Would you have rather seen Proud Spell run on a surface that Larry Jones already knew she hated and risk a breaking down?? She was exhausted from running a race a month for 8 months, hard on any horse and a MUCH harder campaign then Music Note had and running her knowing how tired she was would've been foolish and dangerous. Horses get hurt when they are forced to work if they aren't 100% ready.

re: Who Will Be the 3-Year-Old Filly Champion?

Rechelle — Sat, 15 Nov 2008 15:59:47 GMT

Matthew, the fact remains at the BC Ladies Classic she was beat by COCOA BEACH for crying out loud! If Music Note would have come second, losing to Zenyatta, that'd be a different story but she was beaten by a horse with as little experience going into the BC as Big Brown did going into the KD. And the fact STILL remains, she has never won on any track other than Belmont. At this point, she's a one track pony.