A Classic in the Making

re: A Classic in the Making

pNewmarket — Mon, 12 Oct 2009 14:52:30 GMT

bcfath - Breeders' Cup will never be run in Europe for several reasons:

1. 90% of the money raised by BC comes from American breeders/owners so they won't want to see "their" money disappear abroad.

2. US horses won't ship to Europe as a) there are no dirt tracks here and b)they will be subject to our medication rules which are far stricter than in the USA.

It would be great if more US horses shipped to run in the big races in Europe, after all European horses make the trip to the US all the time, but until US drug regulations fall into step with the rest of the racing world, I can't see it happening.

re: A Classic in the Making

LDP — Sat, 10 Oct 2009 23:59:50 GMT

Oh, and let me rephrase that sentence, the Mosses ducked One Caroline, not Zenyatta. If it were up to her she would've raced and whipped One Caroline. She is great, w/o a single doubt, but her owner is so stuck on that unbeaten record he didn't want to chance it against another unbeaten who would have a much better pace advantage. Zenyatta, if it was up to her would duck no one.

re: A Classic in the Making

LDP — Sat, 10 Oct 2009 23:56:56 GMT

Carlos,

I do not belittle her at all. I think she has accomplished a lot while taking the path of least resistance the whole way. Is that her fault, no, it's her trainer. Plus, I wasn't the one who started the insults by saying somebody hated another horse and they were messed up. I felt this way about BB last year, great horse, no competition, path of least resistance, and disgusting connections, though I'd preffer the Mosses to Dutrow any day of the week. I flew off the handle cause you said because I think she'll get beat and she's taking an easy path to the Cup, that I'm messed up. Nothing about whether you agree or disagree. Karen 2 disagreed with me the other day, but put it in a way where civilized conversation could be met. Telling somebody who is a fan of the sport, who loves horses, that they hate a horse and they are messed up is not a way to try and get a civilized response.

re: A Classic in the Making

Carlos in Cali — Sat, 10 Oct 2009 21:59:39 GMT

I normally wouldn't respond to a bratty,potty-mouthed teen like you-LDP,who flies off the handle when someone disagrees with any of your posts.But,in this instance I will.

Go back and re-read your posts regarding Zenyatta and you'll see that you constantly belittle her.If you're truly a fan of hers like you said,you wouldn't be nit-picking at every single accomplishment she achieves.Hypocrites do that sort of stuff.The facts are there for you to see.

Sorry,This isn't Jr.High and a popularity contest.We're supposed to post our thoughts and debate,I don't take it personal if people agree w/me or not.And if you've noticed there's ALOT of folks who don't agree w/your posts,so don't pump-out your chest too much.Especially if you've ONLY been a race fan since the Smarty Jones era.There's people on here who've been fans or been directly involved with the business longer than you've been alive,like me for instance,and still don't know it all like you seem to think you do.

That ridiculous comment about Zenyatta ducking One Caroline was just that,R-I-D-I-C-U-L-O-U-S!!...as others have noticed also.Get used to people disagreeing w/you and calling you out,that's part of life.It's good you have a passion for this great sport at your age.I've been doing it since as far back as I can remember,literally.It's just that your attitude really,really sucks when people don't agree w/you,that's all.

re: A Classic in the Making

Mike Relva — Sat, 10 Oct 2009 17:44:20 GMT

JASMINE

As a huge fan of Zenyatta from the beginning,I couldn't have said it better. Great point!

re: A Classic in the Making

Jasmine — Sat, 10 Oct 2009 16:18:50 GMT

There's a lot of Zenyatta-trashing today, I see.

I live on the West Coast. I've seen Zenyatta run. And let me tell you, watching her run down her competition time after time is a huge thrill. Maybe not as chillingly fast as Rachel, but still amazing.

Say what you want about her owners, but don't you think they know this horse a little better than we do? Sure, they've been a little over-cautious with her, but isn't that better than over-racing her and injuring her?

She's already raced and won 12 times, 7 of which were Grade 1 races. She'll race today, for her 13th straight, and I truly believe she can do it.

She won't be Horse of the Year. I respect that; Rachel has done everything asked of her this year and more, and deserves the award. But I wish people would stop finding the flaws in Zenyatta and start appreciating the things she's accomplished.

After all, to quote Trevor Denman in the 2008 Clement Hirsch, she's just "poetry in motion."

re: A Classic in the Making

Pam S. — Sat, 10 Oct 2009 16:16:23 GMT

LDP, I agree with most all of what you say in general, but Zenyatta ducking One Caroline? Come on, you know that's silly.

re: A Classic in the Making

Mike Relva — Sat, 10 Oct 2009 15:08:43 GMT

LDP

One of my friends from college,that later has become a successful lawyer had a saying,"the door swings both ways". Likewise,many times you've made statements I haven't liked and I remained silent. Dani,Lava Man has run forty six times and is eight yrs. old. He cannot run forever!

re: A Classic in the Making

LDP — Sat, 10 Oct 2009 10:36:37 GMT

Mike,

Your last sentence does not agree with the whole point of you post. You say that you trust the owners and know there must have been good reason behind what they did, yet you don't have the same respect for the connections of Lava Man. They are closest to him and should have good reason to bring him back according to what you say, right? Now, I have had past disagreements with, you, and not just on Curlin that i've kept my mouth shut on, and tolerated, because I know you better than some on here, so please don't get on me for what I believe. It is my opinion, and honestly I don't really care what Moss thinks of my opinion or even if he cares. If there is a problem with the mare, why is he still racing her? If she was healthy why can't she ship and race at least in the Mid west again? If the man hates synthetics so much, then why doesn't he take a stand against them like he did againsth the detention barns. Nothing he does is consistant with what he says. I have no respect for people like that, and I don't really care if he takes note of this or not.

re: A Classic in the Making

Shawn P — Sat, 10 Oct 2009 04:20:41 GMT

By the way, I hope Zen toasts them tomorrow and same with MTB.

Poor Jerry and John. They try to do what's best for the mare and they're trashed.

re: A Classic in the Making

Shawn P — Sat, 10 Oct 2009 04:17:32 GMT

I'm a little biased, as I admitted.

However I have a lot of relatives in SoCal. I've been skiing/snowboarding there but prefer Colorado or Taos in NM.

Surfing at Malibu, Trestles, Rincon etc, but is it better than Hawaii? Shrug?

I bet you need the revenue. The terminator has just about terminated your state. Did the government start shutting down like they planned?

As far as the industry being in crisis? Try telling that to the Financial industry, housing industry and the car dealers etc.

Some of the most high profile breakdowns the horses weren't pumped up on drugs.

Seems to me if people want to diss it all the time they should be doing other things, writing about baseball or whatever.

Just seems like another 'cause' to be involved in.

re: A Classic in the Making

Mike Relva — Sat, 10 Oct 2009 01:24:33 GMT

LDP

I think Zenyatta's connections have a far better view on what's best for her than you and I. They obviously had reason to scratch her back in the summer. It's not as if they didn't have the plan of running her or they wouldn't have shipped her in the first place. It's not about what the fans want,whom have zero invested in her. I back them all the way and could care less if I'm the only one on this planet that does! BTW Lava Man should stay retired.

re: A Classic in the Making

LDP — Sat, 10 Oct 2009 01:13:08 GMT

Carlos,

Show me where I ever said that i said i hated Zenyatta? This is why nobody on here takes you seriously because you can't ever look up the facts before you shoot off your mouth. I have stated numberous times that I'm actually a fan of Zenyatta, but not her cowardly owners. Look up the facts next time before opening your trap.

re: A Classic in the Making

Carlos in Cali — Fri, 09 Oct 2009 22:56:46 GMT

LDP, Zenyatta dodging One Caroline?..Really?..no way! Your hatred for Zenyatta and adoration for RA has you messed up.

re: A Classic in the Making

bcfath — Fri, 09 Oct 2009 22:08:12 GMT

Excellant comments from ENGLISHin KY. The overuse of drugs in US racing is a major problem, in a industry that is in crisis, sales, handle, purse money etc.,it needs to be addressed aggressively. The numbers (fatalities) speak for themselves. Question: The Breeders Cup Races/ World Championships, this year run at Santa Anita,for the second year in a row. Europe is part of the world and considered an important contributor to world racing, why then don't we have a BC somewhere in Europe. There are some superb racetracks "accross the pond" Has this ever been done or considered?

re: A Classic in the Making

LDP — Fri, 09 Oct 2009 20:35:45 GMT

longwaytomay,

I know what they did, but that track was not wet. Watch the replay, then look later in the day to the oaks. That track was BONE DRY. They're decision to pull her from the race was way to early, they should've waited until about a race before, not the morning of. A track, normally will not dry out in 15 to 20, but give it a few hours and it will. They pulled Zenyatta the morning of, not even giving the track a chance to dry. If it wasn't dry the race before hers, then I can understand you pulling her, but the morning of, when that track has plenty of time to dry? IMO they dodged One Caroline, cause they knew one mare would have to lose and didn't want it to be theirs.

re: A Classic in the Making

Mike Relva — Fri, 09 Oct 2009 18:56:14 GMT

FOOTLICK

I agree! The Zenyatta "bashers" are out in full force cause that's what they live for.

re: A Classic in the Making

Carlos in Cali — Fri, 09 Oct 2009 18:00:36 GMT

Shawn,

Yes,your bias has definitely gotten the best of you if you prefer horrible weather/track conditions to picture perfect weather on synths. Most Euros do prefer their naturally cooler weather,but not wet/soggy surfaces,just ask Sea the Stars connections for example.He would've skipped the Arc if the ground wasn't anything but firm.

Disneyland is OK if you're a tourist..I guess? But,us Native Southern Californians would rather go hiking/skiing/snow boarding in these beautiful mountains,or walk/lounge on our beaches,even take a trip to the desert/Joshua Tree/Mojave all in a days work. :} Jealous? lol

But,please continue to visit Cali,we need the stimuli.

re: A Classic in the Making

Pam S. — Fri, 09 Oct 2009 17:13:04 GMT

I, too am really looking forward to the BC, and especially to seeing the Big Z mare again. She's a beaut. I have been disappointed in the campaign plotted by her connections this year and have said so a number of times, and Lord knows I have always been highly complimentary toward Rachel.

But I feel that even when you are talking about a star (Rachel), racing is still a game of "What have you done for me lately?" Like it or not, the focus is OFF Rachel and her accomplishments and ON Zenyatta and the BC.

So the Mosses have been slammed all year, and I see why. However, Zenyatta will be at the BC next month. Jess Jackson has been roundly praised all year. However, Rachel's campaign ended Sept. 5. I believe, considering he is a master of PR, JJ did not craft the optimum campaign for his star filly. It ended too early in the year because she got too "tired." Was she managed too aggressively? I believe that is a legitimate question totally apart from her owner's aversion to synthetics and the fact the Cup will be held at Santa Anita.

Finally, was Zenyatta managed too timidly? Most would say yes, but time, specifically this weekend and the weekend of Nov. 6, will tell.

re: A Classic in the Making

Jason Shandler — Fri, 09 Oct 2009 17:11:09 GMT

EnglishinKY: Great post, great points. Ive said for a long time that the breakdowns are a result of training practices and meds, not racetracks. Most people in the industry know this. Im glad you brought it up.

Poly, turf and dirt at each racetrack? That would be ideal.

re: A Classic in the Making

ENGLISHinKY — Fri, 09 Oct 2009 17:07:53 GMT

Interesting about the breakdown rates in europe versus dirt/poly in the us.

Having experienced it all first hand on either side of the pond from a training perspective I would say that one big factor for the difference in breakdown rates is the use of pre-race medications such as bute in the US masking lamenesses.

The use of many medications close to the race(especially bute, ketofen, banamine, azium....) is not permitted in europe.

How many horses in the US would pass pre-race inspection from the state vet without these medications?

would horses that are lame without these medications be permitted to run by the state vet if the european drug rules were in place?

The legality of these drugs near to the race is allowing lame horses to appear sound enough to compete.

Perhaps this is a contributory factor to the differnce in break down rates.

Lingfield, Wolverhampton, great leighs, dundalk are all polytrack. They are considered a blessing in that the surface changes little with rain and temperature and is safe. The surface allows racing to continue through the wet and cold winter when the traditional turf courses would be damaged by racing.

trainers in newmarket have long used the polytrack when the turf tracks are too dry/wet/frozen for safe use. Fewer days of training are missed. When the turf is useable many trainers will prefer this over the poly.

Synthetics might not be the total answer but Turfway can race through january and february, Fair hill trainers miss less training. Keeneland's rice road barns are oversubscribed though the winter. Opening day at keeneland is not on a sloppy track. If races come off the turf onto the poly fewer horses will scratch helping to save the exotic wagers, the breeders cup classic will finally be a true world championship.

Synthetics are nothing new. They are decades old in europe and well recieved in countries that have much lower breakdown/fatality rates than the US. They are a help through inclement weather and ease the training process. The maintennence of these surfaces in the US appears different to european management, many of the tracks in the US becoming very hard and losing their spring. This also needs addressing. The more northern Tracks that race through the winter could all benefit from installing a poly track to get through these months. Tracks that race through good weather could stay how they are. (I am a rare englishman who is a great fan of dirt - when it is good dirt - I love it) frozen dirt, sloppy dirt, turfers on sloppy dirt: give me synthetic.

Could certain tracks install an inner poly track? 7 1/2 furlongs. trainers could breeze after thunderstorms with lower risk than the sloppy main track; turf races could come off onto the poly, mid-winter racing would not be held ransom by frozen dirt. The best of all worlds

Poly track, dirt, turf. they all have their place (probably along side each other - complementing eachother)

re: A Classic in the Making

Shawn P — Fri, 09 Oct 2009 16:17:03 GMT

Well Monica, the Euros prefer the cooler weather. Actually if you ask, most race horse trainers will tell you they all do. I like the dirt. CD has the highest attendance for the BC and even with all the problems KY is still the horse capital and people will come to CD, just like they do for the Derby without all the gimmicks, price decreases etc. How it'll work out if they keep 'Ladies Day' ? We'll see but Oaks Day gets 100,000+ out and that's basically ONE race. There have been bad weather days, but also good weather days just like in California where it was SO hot and smokey the time they held it previous to last year. Don't you guys have a big wildfire right now?

Dublin has no connection to any of those, trust me.

Scott had a good blog on name changes, hmmmmm.

re: A Classic in the Making

longwaytomay — Fri, 09 Oct 2009 16:13:49 GMT

LDP, Since when is a track that has been sealed not wet? The connections said all week that if the track came up sloppy or if it was sealed they wouldn't run.

re: A Classic in the Making

MonicV — Fri, 09 Oct 2009 15:04:20 GMT

Shawn P,

It's true that the last couple of Breeder's Cups run here were hot and smokey but that hasn't always been the case. The inaugural Cup in 1984 was a flawless, beautiful, clear, sunny day with mild temps. the 1986 cup at SA was the same, absolutely gorgeous and cool. The current temps in Southern California are in the low 70's and the air is clear. Since the BC is the first week of November, it should be perfect. The normal fall weather here is fantastic just as it is now. I went to the 1988 BC at CD and it is was 40 degrees and rainy. I have never been so cold in my life! Took me 2 hours to thaw after the races.

re: A Classic in the Making

LDP — Fri, 09 Oct 2009 14:08:22 GMT

Mike,

We've had differing opinions before. I like Zenyatta, but can't stand how her connections have handled her. To me they have avoided all the competition. In the east, the older mares are better, and she could've raced them. In the west I believe the colts are better, so why not race her in the Goodwood. They say their horse is great yet they don't want to do anything great with her this year. She ducked One Caroline earlier this year, because they made a early and rash decision about the track, that didn't even end up wet. They say they dislike synthetics, yet run all there top horses on it, because they win. When it came to the detention barns they don't like them yet didn't race there because they have lost. To me that is hypocricy, to say you don't like something and still turn around and do it. This is my opinion, and like you dislike JJ and SA, I dislike Jerry Moss. I'm not trying to be rude just telling you that why I say differt things.