Weekend Analysis: A Grade I Bonanza

re: Weekend Analysis: A Grade I Bonanza

Shawn P — Fri, 16 Oct 2009 18:43:43 GMT

Also, I think enough were anti on the CHRB and now more are seeing the light. Lets hope one of these super rich guys who don't like it ponies up and pushes the change, and pays for it!

Likewise dude. Always fun to debate and keep it cool and interesting.

Politics? No way...........

re: Weekend Analysis: A Grade I Bonanza

Shawn P — Fri, 16 Oct 2009 18:15:55 GMT

Emilio, I'm just saying what most in racing are saying. The syns have been visited upon us and they are a disappointment.

Dickinson? Mediocre success with a select few horses and not enough horses, business on the side turned into the main. How many of them has he sold here?

Sheikh Mo? Gotta do something to pay back Abu Dhabi and figure out how to fill up the mall and the empty buildings and get the foreign workers and tourists back there.

HE started building that track when times were golden, when someone would lend them money and when the syns were supposedly the savior of racing.

Just like with Stronach when people were worried about him buying up every track in the USA almost. Now we're paying for it.

re: Weekend Analysis: A Grade I Bonanza

EmilioP — Thu, 15 Oct 2009 22:19:18 GMT

ShawnP,

I´m not trying to say two different things, i´m probably not wording it right for you. My first point is I don´t like the labels of turf horses or dirt horses attached to any horse that comes from a certain pedigree or a certain country. I dont like labeling something without proof. How does anybody know a horse from South Africa or Australia, where races are mostly run on turf like Europe, how can anybody know for a fact that particular horse wont do well on the dirt when he or she hasnt even tried it yet. Same goes with people here say we cant go to the Arc because we dont breed that type of horse, that statement drives me crazy, because there has been Arc winners bred in Kentucky. How would we know if nobody even sents some horses to actually compete over there regularly. I mean Urban Sea was by Miswaki, a horse who was taken to run in Europe given that on paper he had a great pedigree to run in America, Mr. Prospector out of a Buckpasser mare, you dont get more American than that. The same goes for jockeys and trainers. Jean Luc Samyn, Fernando Toro, Brice Blanc, are jockeys labeled as turf riders given there success, but if you ask them about that and they will tell you they hate that label because to them they can ride any horse on any surface just as well. Same goes to a guy like Bill Mott, Cristophe Clement, Jonathan Sheperd, these are guys more known for their handling of turf specialists, yet if you ask them if they like being labeled as turf trainers, they tell you they dont like that label either. For one reason, all three of them have been open about winning a Kentucky Derby, and I am not one to argue with them, that if given the right horse to run in the Triple Crown, those three trainers dont need a lesson to take from anyone. But labels unfortunately put a limit on potential without garnering that merit. I mean Cigar was put through the turf races for a while because of his pedigree. I ask you this, why did Bill Farish sent Mineshaft to start his career in Europe? given that the man has never had a Kentucky Derby winner. Was mineshaft automatically labeled a turf horse because he was sent to Europe to compete? If you have the answer to that let me know, I would think it is because they were high on the horse, so they senthim to try to compete in Europes top races maybe even an Epsom Derby. So it went wrong for them, they brought him back and got a Horse of the Year in America. And we are left wondering what might have been had he stayed in America in the first place. Thats all I´m trying to say. I said already in my first post that I know that some horses have preferences for surfaces, as you have to agree that some horses dont have a preference and run on anything disregarding pedigree or where they come from. But attaching labels is dangerous, why?, because you potential. Like the breeding industry limits the potential of certain sires because they were better as older horses, or ran mostly on turf or on longer distances. Its because of those labels that we are destroying the breed, and I include myself in it. Because we breed Raise a Native to Northern Dancer, while other sire lines are quickly disappearing, and its a shame.

As for me, yes I hace Cali roots, but I´m on the East Coast now for the last 10 years. No I dont like the synthetics, never have, to me its like racing on a land fill man, its garbage. But when can anybody do now out there or in anywhere that has them not run?, if that is the answer than it all ends. Its catastrophic. What can anybody do, they passed that proposition, tracks are plastic, it sucks, but if you boycott it or leave than its over, kiss it all goodbye, many jobs are being lost already, if that happens California will lose an entire industry.

Shawn,

You´re right they are not how they painted them, but is a trainer and an owner supposed to do but go with the flow. Now if you say they will be gone in 10 years, than why is one of the most powerful man in the sport putting it on his new racetrack. Why doesnt he just leave it dirt like Nad Al Sheba. You have to question it man, there is something weird going on. These surfaces cost millions of dollars, they are successful businesses now obviously, Michael Dickinson gave up his day job to go around the world and sell his brand, and he´s doing quite well.

I dont know where it will all end. All I know is that we have to play with the hand that is dealt. As for the Breeders Cup, They keep dropping the ball a lot lately. I ask people, if its to help out Frank, why dont they just do it at Gulfstream or Laurel or Pimlico. Maryland has never hosted one, this would have been great for that state. I mean they host the Preakness, and they have never hosted a Breeders Cup.

Anyway I hope I´ve cleared the confusion. Its cool debating with you man, you have more comebacks than a politician, and I mean that in a good way.

re: Weekend Analysis: A Grade I Bonanza

Shawn P — Thu, 15 Oct 2009 03:07:50 GMT

"I am so tired of reading the bull about racing surfaces, or a turf horse and a dirt horse. Trainers, owners, half of them can't even tell a difference between a turf horse and a dirt horse. Do you people know why, its because there is no difference, they are horses, they are made the same. They all have the same bone structure, the same flesh. Its ridiculous, all these excuses made by horsemen, turf writers and even bloggers.

EmilioP 12 Oct 2009 6:39 PM"

THAT was what I was addressing.

Then this contradictory statement:

"I will put simple. I said that a horse can come from anywhere and be able to run on the dirt, and on turf etc. Thats it. I also said that some horses prefer different surfaces over others. Enough said about that.EmilioP 14 Oct 2009 9:21 PM"

Sorry but I'm not sure if there are two Emilio's or you're saying two different things.

As far as having more meaning to owners? I've been hitting that subject HARD. It means a LOT to owners. Just that the horses mean MORE, in the case of somebody who DOESN'T want to race a 2 year on the synthetics, who will probably never run on them again who is being thought of as a TC horse, dirt horse the future of the horse means MORE.

I get it that you are a Cal guy, but owners aren't ALL trying to be bigger than the cup or the sport. It KILLS some to have to make a decision about this but it isn't in the BEST interest of all the horsses to take them to Cal.

Personally, I think the trainers who can't determine after a try on it which surface a horse prefers isn't a particularly good trainer.

re: Weekend Analysis: A Grade I Bonanza

EmilioP — Thu, 15 Oct 2009 01:21:28 GMT

Shawn P,

I will put simple. I said that a horse can come from anywhere and be able to run on the dirt, and on turf etc. Thats it. I also said that some horses prefer different surfaces over others. Enough said about that. About synthetics, I have said all along they are not needed. My question is why are they even putting them?, You say in 10 years they will be gone. I hope you are right. If I had my wish they should be gone already. why 10 years from now. It was wrong for California to enforce this on their premier tracks. Now this surfaces dont come cheap, so changing back and forth again especially in these trying times is a very difficult task to do considering most tracks are not even making money right now.

I have been in a hardcore pursuit for uniformity in this sport. As well as a point system installation kind of like NASCAR, to determine championships. Will we ever see it, I dont have the answer for that, but it is an issue that should be addressed.

As for the Breeders Cup, it needs to make a bigger impact than it does at the moment. Its importance should be placed higher than any other event in the calendar, championships should be decided on that day if there is no point system to follow. Agree with you though, as to me the two horses I mentioned are World CHampions even though the industry did not consider them as such. I also say that that this whole war oon words of Europe vs America is nonsense, as the sport of Racing is universal. I ask any of you this, If Stonerside never sells Midshipman and Ravens Pass, Would that still count as a Euro dominated Cup. Of course not. The only thing that happened last year was that Americas best horse got beat last year in Americas most important race, so the whole cup was a catastrophe to the American Media, Calling it a Euro Domination. They can call it whatever they want, to me it was a great 2 days of racing, the results might have not been what most of us wanted, because some of our favorites lost, but all in all it was great. And this year even with the absentees, the Cup's races will be great. I just wish they had more meaning to some owners out there who try to be bigger than the cup and bigger than the sport itself.

re: Weekend Analysis: A Grade I Bonanza

Shawn P — Wed, 14 Oct 2009 20:23:07 GMT

Emilio, I think they were World Champions.

They didn't win the Eclipse awards because those aren't WORLD awards.

I said the BC is important to us in the game because of the chance to win ALL the moolah. (rough translation of a Woodyism)

I'm not quite sure what you're saying. I said horses usually have a preference for one surface or another. That was in response to you or whoever said they should be able to run on everything (don't remember who right now). What has the most effect on Dubai is the shipping. We've done pretty well over there on the dirt but now that it's synthetic???

If you really think everyone is going to synthetics, then I think you're mistaken.

It ISN'T what was promised, it ISN'T cost effective, nor handicapper friendly and what it's doing to Cal racing? Most others don't want to go that direction.

I'm hearing more and more in the game talking about it being eradicated from the scene in 10 years. If the NTRA forces it? The tracks will just not join the NTRA.

I don't think it's responsible for anyone to force something so cost prohibitive on an industry that's struggling right now without some kind of 'stimulus package' (lol)

re: Weekend Analysis: A Grade I Bonanza

Mike Relva — Wed, 14 Oct 2009 20:01:45 GMT

CARLOS

Really? That means alot coming from someone that is a graduate of "clown school". lol

re: Weekend Analysis: A Grade I Bonanza

Carlos in Cali — Wed, 14 Oct 2009 18:58:20 GMT

Relva,you're the biggest fraud on here,bar none. congrats!

re: Weekend Analysis: A Grade I Bonanza

EmilioP — Wed, 14 Oct 2009 18:52:16 GMT

Paula and Shawn,

I said some horses prefer one type of track over another. As well as I will say that some horses like Parading do better in Keenelands poly than Californias three different synthetic tracks. Just as some horses prefer one dirt track to other dirt tracks. Cause they are all different, which makes things more interesting and more difficult to handicap. My thing is about the labeling of a turf horse, to dirt horse, depending upon where the horse is from. I will ask the question and nobody answered it, Why are European horses automatically considered turf horses and South American horses who normally run on turf are not considered. Shawn if you have the stats then show them man. All I can go by is by the sire standings and they show the same horses dominating dirt racing are dominating synthetics. I dont see Theatricals offspring or El Prados for that matter getting a big jump over AP Indy and Distorted Humor or even Unbridleds Song. If you want to go to an all plastic state, than Unusual Heat, Bertrando, Benchmark, and others are still dominating the top ten state sire lists as they did before the change, and Swiss Yodeler continues to be the dominant force in the juvenile ranks as he has always been. So difference on results is not much. To me this whole turf to synth, or turf to dirt thing has been a puzzle that will never be solved. Back in the day I saw a so called turf horse Nasr El Arab romp in the Strub Stakes over dirt and mud runners. I saw a very fast Simply Majestic burn up turf tracks and dirt tracks in record times, in fact once was a world record. Some Ap Indys run only on turf, others only run dirt, others only run mud, others run firm turf, others soft, you get my drift. Where does it say that all Sadler's Wells offspring only run on turf. Nobody will know unless they try it. Horsemen today rarely take those chances. An old timer like Woody or Charlie would try horses out on anything until they figured out what was there best running style, preferred track, best distance, and keep him at that. A horse like Princequillo probably would never have a future in this age, Because there are not many guys who think like Horatio Luro either.

And Shawn, if they are the World Championships, then why weren't Ravens Pass and Ventura named World Champions. Face it man its a gimmik.

The question is why doesn't the Breeders Cup Classic attract some of the horses that Dubai World Cup does. That race in the past has attracted some of the best turf horses in Europe as well as some of our best American Champions. The results on a dirt track have gone almost 50-50 between the Darley Euro horses and the Americans, Based on that its almost like the American contingency has failed in their journeys to Dubai, Since dirt racing is our bread and butter, but the results in the history of that race back up my statement that a horse no matter where they are from, can run on any surface without a label to carry with him or her. The impact on the results of the new Meydan racetrack remains to be seen. The change to Tapeta is not something I understand, but we should start asking the questions to the powers that be if there is something going on that the public and media do not know about, because thats too many high profile racetracks already changing to synthetics. Now I know the price of sand has gone up, I dont know if that has anything to do with it, and I know there is a lack of water in the world right now, I think each racetrack better start thinking of having water treatment and water recycling plants installed in them for one. The way things look is that synthetics are here to stay and more and more tracks are going to do the change. The questions are why? Pro-ride to me has not made a big impact in safety, neither has Polytrack or Cushion. Now I dont know how Tapeta has done, I Havent heard much of whats happened at Presque Isle and Golden Gate, as there hasn't been much talk or any at all come out of those tracks compared to other tracks with different synthetic footing. I know its creator is a legendary trainer and one of its biggest fans is jockey Gary Stevens, who has backed up Tapeta but not the other synthetic tracks. Jason, if anybody can find out why is this trend happening, please let the public know about it. To me track surfaces are not the biggest problem, to me its drugs and the lack of marketing support the sport receives.

re: Weekend Analysis: A Grade I Bonanza

Householder — Wed, 14 Oct 2009 18:40:54 GMT

Borel said that MTB just needed to get back on the right surface. Now their putting "stickers" or some type of cleat on his back shoes. As a better, I'm listening to the jockey and not the trainer on this one.

re: Weekend Analysis: A Grade I Bonanza

Shawn P — Wed, 14 Oct 2009 16:47:09 GMT

Laz, not at all. Sometimes we can go temporarily bonkers READING HIS gibberish.

Makes us dizzy, lose all sense of reality and perspective. Another planet or dimension!

re: Weekend Analysis: A Grade I Bonanza

LAZMANNICK — Wed, 14 Oct 2009 16:01:18 GMT

Shawn P

I thought I was still looking at the other blog....just goes to show you that Draynay isn't the only one that doesn't know what he's talking aobut.

re: Weekend Analysis: A Grade I Bonanza

Rechelle — Wed, 14 Oct 2009 04:02:09 GMT

Paula, I'm sorry, as much as I like Zenyatta (and I *DO* like her), I just think she's past her prime. Maybe it's because of how her connections have handpicked her races this year but I think she's peaked. Of course she takes one stride for every 2 strides of other horses, she's at least a hand taller than any of them. I think the Euros will beat her this year because they have all faced tougher competition. The Euros are going to send the best of the best (with the exception of Sea The Stars). I also think that Careless Jewel is a better horse than Zenyatta is. I don't know about Stardom Bound, since she's been off for so long.

PMAC29, the fact still remains,she made her move a lot earlier than she ever does. She was never at the back of the pack like she normally is and she made her move in the turn instead of in the stretch. If she'd made in the stretch, she may have been beat (although I will admit I doubt it).

I will admit, if Zenyatta goes in the Ladies Classic, she will likely win, with her only competition being Careless Jewel or the Euros. If she goes in the Classic, she gets beat by the Euros.

re: Weekend Analysis: A Grade I Bonanza

Rechelle — Wed, 14 Oct 2009 03:55:12 GMT

Draynay, I had to have my husband revive me after I fainted from you agreeing with anything I said. But I am curious ... what did you agree with??? We never agree on anything normally.

re: Weekend Analysis: A Grade I Bonanza

Shawn P — Wed, 14 Oct 2009 02:47:47 GMT

My understanding is it is similar on dirt tracks. That's what they call 'morning glories'. They work bullets, run great in the a.m. and it just doesn't translate to the afternoon. Conversely some do better in the races because they're lazy in the a.m. Whether that's because the track takes a pounding in the a.m. with all the works in between the breaks where they harrow? But I've also heard the more horses that work over synthetics the better the horses work on it, but the quicker it breaks down and harder it is to keep. That's just what I've heard about the surfaces at S.A.

re: Weekend Analysis: A Grade I Bonanza

Shawn P — Wed, 14 Oct 2009 01:54:11 GMT

Laz, you been drinking the 'energy drink'? This was posted on 10/9. LOL

re: Weekend Analysis: A Grade I Bonanza

HorseFirst — Wed, 14 Oct 2009 01:45:51 GMT

Shawn P.,

Thank you for the information about differences in breezing and racing. Wonder if that is common with dirt tracks, other than weather related?

I also understand that it's apples and oranges trying to compare different poly surfaces, so just because MTB got around Woodbine does not translate into doing well at Santa Anita.

re: Weekend Analysis: A Grade I Bonanza

LAZMANNICK — Wed, 14 Oct 2009 01:12:14 GMT

This blog is setting all time records.....Jason just published it this morning and by 9:10 EST there are 392 posts.....WOW

re: Weekend Analysis: A Grade I Bonanza

Cindi — Wed, 14 Oct 2009 00:25:53 GMT

Draynay - I cannot believe for a second that none of the other owners/trainers considered MTB a "factor" in the Preakness or the Belmont. Just because YOU never consider him a factor on opinion doesn't mean you can state that as fact. Based on the definition of "factor" any horse who runs in a race and is in the form to win it presents a "factor" for every other runner to consider. If said horse places 1, 2 or 3 HE HAS TO BE FACTOR!!

I take issue with your global statements and opinions stated as if they are fact. We already know you hate the horse so give it a rest.

The "my horse is better than your horse" arguments are extremely childlike and annoying. They are irrational at best.

I for one have not made excuses for any of the horses I cheer for or bet on. And no, I am not new to MTB but my opinion of him is very different than yours. I do, however, educate myself on the different elements playing into a horse's development, health and a particular race so I can learn more about the sport in general and enjoy it more thoroughly.

re: Weekend Analysis: A Grade I Bonanza

Shawn P — Tue, 13 Oct 2009 23:36:47 GMT

Householder, I may be wrong on the track that wanted their dates. Thanks for the info though. Isn't the economy so bad there that they are totally cutting the prices in half of those McMansions as they call them back there?

I just think if it was me I'd want everything to stay status quo for right now and bide their time. But maybe that makes too much sense to Ahhnold. LOL

Mike, thanks. I really don't like to argue. It's just so frustrating watching and hearing all the beat downs when our industry is already beat down. Just seems to me that a lot of it is misinformation.

Tell me true dude, isn't your dream to win the Derby? Or a BC race at the very least? It's awesome to win ANY race but one of those, if you haven't won one yet is awe inspiring.

Hate to argue with someone who loves Ms Zen as much as we both do.

re: Weekend Analysis: A Grade I Bonanza

Householder — Tue, 13 Oct 2009 23:13:02 GMT

Shawn P having just attended Pomona I think this is a bit of a stretch being that it is a 5/8 mile track with no turf. It's fun to sit and watch the horses try to take the turns. The last I read was the the State was putting forth 20 year bids for someone like the Del Mar Thoroughbred Club to do day to day operations at Del Mar. Your right though, Del Mar is owned by the state of California which has put it on a list of properties for potential sale (just like San Quenton). However, in a down market the President of Del Mar claims that Gov Square head has over estimated its land value (almost 2x) being that it sits in a flood plain. However, it has a beach view and I'm sure some developer could put all the homes on stilts and people in CA would still fight over them.

re: Weekend Analysis: A Grade I Bonanza

Shawn P — Tue, 13 Oct 2009 22:06:53 GMT

Horsefirst. Yes there is a lot of difference between breezing and running a race.

The biggest difference from morning to afternoon is the condition of the surface. That is what guys like Baffert etc are saying. Also I have read from the manufacturers that it actually does play quite a bit differently in cooler weather.

re: Weekend Analysis: A Grade I Bonanza

Mike Relva — Tue, 13 Oct 2009 21:42:58 GMT

SHAWN P

Ok,I'm done debating! I see your point from your last point.

re: Weekend Analysis: A Grade I Bonanza

Shawn P — Tue, 13 Oct 2009 20:41:34 GMT

Karen, it's a love hate relationsip. Some of these people proclaim to love the game, yet they hate the people in it and worse yet HATE when we speak from a point of knowledge.

I don't think you'll ever see me or anyone else who owns or trains even ONE of these animals, disrespecting another one of the horses (well except Rick Dutrow). It fires me up when people DO and then when they try to demean what those of us in the industry want to say about things.

They've done it to the people in the Q&A segments, they've done it to people who DON'T post here, they do it to those of us in the game who are stupid enough to want to share information and discuss things on the blogs. I guess it makes them feel more knowledgeable to be posting without benefit of people in the industry so they can say whatever nonsense and disrespect the animals, people they know nothing about.

Well, soon everyone will be wary of saying anything and then it'll be how uncooperative and arrogant the people in the industry are or a ton of garbage being thrown out there for more speculation and misinformation.

Me? If I got a chance to listen to a great football coach being interviewed, a player giving his insight into a closed world? I'd be all ears and while I might have questions I would NEVER show the disrespect shown to racetrackers like is shown here over and over again. Like the comments about Bob Baffert, John S, Hal W, Larry J etc when they gave their time to Jason for a Q&A.

Or the random disrespect shown to MTB, Zenyatta, SB or Todd P, Wayne, Chip etc etc.

We can differ without being disrespectful and face it without thinking that they know more than someone who is in the game.

I can tell you we all appreciate the fans, but when is it counterproductive?

I can say though that there are many on here who question, opine and still do it in a productive and positive manner. THOSE are the fans we really appreciate even when they disagree.

re: Weekend Analysis: A Grade I Bonanza

Shawn P — Tue, 13 Oct 2009 20:25:31 GMT

Mike I'm not saying that I just know individuals in racing. I'm saying that WE are IN racing ourselves.

You said YOU own horses so you must know that it's a different perspective from a fan who does not and has NEVER owned race horses. THAT is my point.

My point to LDP is that SHE nor anyone who has NEVER run horses in any of these races can tell US who HAVE what the Breeders Cup or any of these other races mean to US who HAVE run and DO run in them. Got it?

LDP THAT is what I mean by YOUR people. THOSE outside the GAME who have NO idea what any of it means as related to BEING IN THE GAME, RUNNING RACE HORSES IN THE GAME. You have a perspective that is DIFFERENT from ours, got it?

That is and has been MY whole point and the point of OTHERS on here who OWN, TRAIN, BREED or WORK with horses who are ON the TRACK, will soon be ON the TRACK.

WE don't necessarily see things the SAME way a FAN who approaches it from a different viewpoint altogether and who DOES NOT have a vested interest in the horses that are running.

People including LDP are continuously trying to speak FOR us, like they KNOW what we go through, what's important to US WHO ARE IN THE GAME, how we should feel about things and what things mean to US.

THEY CANNOT, THEY DON'T KNOW. NOw do you understand?????