Win or Lose, Curlin is a Rock Star

re: Win or Lose, Curlin is a Rock Star

Householder — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 02:32:21 GMT

Berttheclock...Julie L

Ferdinand and Alysheba met for a total of 4 races. The first meeting was the 1987 Breeder's Cup Classic at Hollywood Park. They sent Judge Angelucci and Candy's Gold to the front. "The Two Derby Horses hit the wire together." (Ferdinand by a nose taking horse of the year honors). The second meeting was a little later that year with Super Diamond and Judge Angelucci being sent in the 1988 Santa Anita Handicap. Ferdinand and Alysheba (who were about 10 lengths behind those two) collared them (more like inhaled them) at the 3/4 pole. Nod went to Alysheba. This set up the rubber match, the 1988 San Bernadino Handicap 6 weeks later. Check this one out on You Tube. Top 5 races ever! I still remember Trevor Deman's call as they rounded the corner. "This is the match race that we have been waiting for!" Nose goes to Alysheba. They met once again in the 1988 Gold Cup with both loosing (Alysheba 2nd, Ferdinand 3rd). Pretty impressive for a horse (Alysheba) who had only 1 maiden win (2 for 10) entering the Kentucky Derby. (He had also won the Blue Grass in his final prep but was DQd). It's a good thing he was not retired after the Triple Crown.

re: Win or Lose, Curlin is a Rock Star

Huh — Fri, 18 Jul 2008 17:25:20 GMT

I think that Curlin should go to the Pacific Classic, follwed up by another California prep, in preperation for the BC Classic. Or he could go to a race like the Arlington Million and then another turf race and go to the BC Turf. I don't know why the latter route is being overlooked. I mean to me it seems as though it's the Classic, the Arc or retirement, when the BC Turf is a very viable option.

re: Win or Lose, Curlin is a Rock Star

Karen2 — Fri, 18 Jul 2008 04:08:11 GMT

Wanda: When the research is in and they can show synthetic is really much safer than dirt, I might fall for it. But right now there just isn't enough evidence. I personally feel that all the great ones ran on dirt. They had no where near the catastrophic break downs we see today. Yes, it happened and it always will to some degree, but I believe the problem lies elsewhere and synthetic tracks are probably the quickest fix to what is a complicated problem. I will agree with Steve Haskin when he says synthetic tracks are causing an inbalance in racing right now.

re: Win or Lose, Curlin is a Rock Star

Slew.em.All — Thu, 17 Jul 2008 19:01:45 GMT

Um,sorry..got lost reading the memoirs' of katsan..Anyways,if Curlins' people are hesitant to race him on turf or synthetics then 1 other option would be to keep him on dirt tracks,where there's plenty of prestigious/big money races on tab.And then they can ship him overseas for the Japan Cup,where if he wins,he would truly become an International Rock Star!..yes?..no?

re: Win or Lose, Curlin is a Rock Star

Julie L. — Thu, 17 Jul 2008 18:57:52 GMT

Berttheclock - I was there at Hollywood Park for the Classic between Alysheba and Ferdinand and for me the most impressive was watching Alysheba on the turn for home putting in his run with his saddlecloth waving and hearing the announcer call out "and here comes Alysheba". I believe it was Super Diamond but I also remember Judge Angelucci, they both overtook the two and made their powerful stretch run, it was awesome.

re: Win or Lose, Curlin is a Rock Star

Bryce Be Quick — Thu, 17 Jul 2008 16:53:29 GMT

Karen 2-- I am all for/with you on having bad vibs about Curlin running in the Arc. What makes his connections think he can navigate that roller coaster of a course?

If he has to run on turf and it for whatever reason it has to be some venue other than in North America, I think the better spot would be the Irish Stakes, with a course which looks more forgiving and more US turf-like, save for the uphill grade in the final stretch.

Frankly, if I were mapping out a turf-based plan for him, I would point to the Arlington and then bring him back in the BC on the turf. The only recent Triple Crown winner I have seen with a turf turn of foot who I think would have been a legitimate threat in the Arc was Barbaro.

Taking nothing away from Curlin or Red Rocks, but the later a middle-of-the-pack turf runner on the international stage, and he handled Curlin with comparative ease. Curlin would have to make a quantum leap to be competitive with the even better horses he would be seeing in the Arc. Bottom Line: can't see what Jess Jackson apparently sees.

re: Win or Lose, Curlin is a Rock Star

Wanda — Thu, 17 Jul 2008 14:27:28 GMT

Karen2 I get what you are saying but dirt tracks are not all the same.You'd think dirt is dirt but it depends on the location. My husband is the race operations foreman for the track here and depending on the time of year he may add sand or even shavings to the track.I've seen alot of racetracks all over the US and Canada and they can range from deep dirt to almost pure sand.The old saying "horses for courses" comes into play here.A good horse can ship anywhere and still run well. A differint surface does not faze them at all.That's what I meant to say and didn"t yesterday.I am a firm believer in synthetic tracks and as I quoted on another site, I'd take soft tissue injuries over catasrophic breakdowns anyday.

re: Win or Lose, Curlin is a Rock Star

LP — Thu, 17 Jul 2008 13:52:42 GMT

I think that the supposed "poll" that Jackson has posted on the Go Curlin website is rigged. I am heavily wired to the North American horse racing industry and I do not know even ONE person who wants to watch Curlin struggle through a turf campaign. His stride simply isn't conducive to being as great on grass as he is on dirt. Either Jackson is afraid to face Big Brown or Big Brown's connections are fixing that poll to come in favoring turf. Seriously, who among us does not want to see the 2 great Thoroughbreds of our time in a match race, besides the owners who are concerned about stud fees?????

re: Win or Lose, Curlin is a Rock Star

Rggc — Thu, 17 Jul 2008 13:11:31 GMT

Thanks Kellie and Cyd, I knew it had been done but I couldn't remember the stars that did it. Your right Kellie, the Handicap Triple is dead now that they changed that schedule. Its a shame, hope they come up with an official one to fill the void.

re: Win or Lose, Curlin is a Rock Star

berttheclock — Thu, 17 Jul 2008 11:44:11 GMT

Will W,

Agreed that the duel between Alysheba and Ferdinand at SA was a classic - Still get chills recalling how great Alysheba looked walking onto the main track - Head was bowed - Reminded me of a Tennessee Walker - His prancing almost turned into a frolic -

Didn't the late Eddie Gregson send Super Diamond to the lead with Ferdinand and Alysheba far behind until the middle of the back stretch? Then, they sorta eyeballed one another and the real race was on - Head to head, nose to nose, for over a half a mile - True Champions.

re: Win or Lose, Curlin is a Rock Star

Andy — Thu, 17 Jul 2008 10:31:22 GMT

How can Lava Man not be Breeder's Cup nominated when he's already run in the Classic? That doesn't make any sense.

Curlin is a 4 year-old that never ran at two. He has 20 less races in his career than Cigar. Let him run through his six year-old season with 20 more races and how many more millions do you think he will win? I guarantee it would be higher than Cigar's inflation adjusted figure.

It amazes me why people knock this horse.

re: Win or Lose, Curlin is a Rock Star

GunBow — Thu, 17 Jul 2008 07:27:23 GMT

The NY Handicap triple (Met Mile, Suburban, Brooklyn) is basically dead. Anyways, it was a regional series and not really comprable to the Triple Crown, especially as racing in California became stronger. The decline in prestige is similar for the Triple Tiara, as 3 New York races do not really reveal the country's best filly. With the numerous changes in scheduling and distances, the NY handicap triple is rarely discussed by the media these days. Historically, the Met Mile has been run Memorial Day weekend, the 1 and 1/4 mile Suburban on Independence day, and the 1 and 1/2 mile Brooklyn a few weeks later. However, in 1991 the Brooklyn was shortened to 1 and 3/8 mile and reschuduled. Since then, the Brooklyn has been shortened further to 1 and 1/8 mile before being returned to 1 and 1/2 mile this year, and has been run at a number of different dates, including September 22 last year, and lost its grade 1 status in 1993. The last I remember the Handicap Triple receiving much attention was in 1995 when You and I won the Met Mile, then the Brooklyn (changed that year to before the Suburban and at 1 and 1/8 mile) before failing in the Suburban. In 1991, In Excess won the Met Mile and Suburban, but because of scheduling, couldn't make the Brooklyn. Instead, In Excess ran in and won the Whitney, and a number of people commented that they considered those three wins as equivalent to winning the Handicap Triple, especially considering the greater prestige of the Whitney (as a "marathon" the Brooklyn was increasingly losing favor). As a side note, In Excess would go on to win the Woodward as well, giving him 4 straight New York grade 1s.

re: Win or Lose, Curlin is a Rock Star

katsan — Thu, 17 Jul 2008 06:41:02 GMT

P.S. Bryce,

Jack was just being Jack, he'll say the same thing to your face that he does to Congress. Hancock, well no comment. Really though none of them that testified did much to help racing and I can't quite figure Randy Moss being called to testify.

re: Win or Lose, Curlin is a Rock Star

katsan — Thu, 17 Jul 2008 06:35:27 GMT

Bryce, Jackson sued almost every agent who ever bought a horse for him, he sued others regarding a farm puchase. He made his fortune in Wine, I believe, not as much as a lawyer. He testified that owners have no representation (news to the TOBA)in his normal petty way he said that trainers should have no say in simulcast issues, they are only the 'agents for the owners'. As far as Ricky Dutrow is concerned I'm afraid that you are totally correct. However I think he could have done terrible harm if he were allowed to speak. He is the epitome of a loose cannon. What a shame because I understand from a trainer who knows him that he is a superb horseman who is constantly shooting himself and this industry in the foot. Kind of like a Barry Bonds of the equine world. As far as the others testimony I understand from a lot of sources that there wasn't really time for anyone to offer any concrete solutions. Knock on wood I haven't fallen off since I was a little kid. Have had them fall with me, come up over the top of me when ponying them to the track, buck with me but haven't gotten me off in a long time. My sister on the other hand has had them fall on her, run her into a fence, lay down with her, flip over backwards etc, she hasn't been bucked off or fallen off ever. But she's the better rider and does it for a living.

re: Win or Lose, Curlin is a Rock Star

Karen2 — Thu, 17 Jul 2008 03:53:20 GMT

BB is bred to be a turf horse. I wouldn't mind seeing him run on the turf again and if its a must, on synthetic (yuck). Curlin could get better on the turf as the MOW definately wasn't a "bounce" by any sense of the imagination. I would love to see them race eachother. Curlin is mature and experienced but when BB is on he is a force to be reckoned with and could prove to be a handful for Curlin. Curlin may end up with the last word though. I don't know but it would be exciting.

re: Win or Lose, Curlin is a Rock Star

Cyd — Thu, 17 Jul 2008 02:50:41 GMT

Rggc

In answer to the Handicap Triple Crown being won since Tom Fool the answer is yes in 1961 Kelso did who was a great gelding.

re: Win or Lose, Curlin is a Rock Star

Racefan66 — Thu, 17 Jul 2008 02:42:09 GMT

As far as Curlin's performance, I think that it is exciting to wonder if he's going to improve over the turf or to see if he's met his match. So many owners are afraid to really challenge their horse because it could negatively impact their stud fee. It's more sporting to keep challenging Curlin (as they have) to see what he can do. Whether he runs at home or abroad, whether he wins or loses, I enjoy seeing him get out there and race.

Jason: I'm also thrilled to see that Evening Attire is still fit and ready to race at 10. I say this very tongue-in-cheek, but how come it seems like geldings are made of sterner stuff that can hold up to years of frequent races? Whenever an expensive stallion prospect (such as Smarty Jones) is retired due to mild injuries found in training, I can't help but wonder if he is actually fine and that is code for "we can't afford to risk him". I guess in the old days, owners weren't so much in the business of racing as they were in the sport of racing.

ANyway, I definitely appreciate the owners of horses that run into their five year old season such as Medaglia D'Oro, Aldebaran, and Black Tie Affair. Thanks for letting us watch them run for so many years before sending them to the shed!

re: Win or Lose, Curlin is a Rock Star

Huh — Thu, 17 Jul 2008 02:22:35 GMT

I'm looking forward to seeing Red Rocks continue his racing career here in America, because I think that this year he could win his 2nd BC Turf. Also, I'm rooting for Tin Cup Chalice to complete the Big Apple triple in the Albany Stakes, after winning the NY Derby here in CNY.

re: Win or Lose, Curlin is a Rock Star

Wanda — Thu, 17 Jul 2008 02:11:46 GMT

I looked at the entries for Philly this afternoon and seen the other old man in what a kicker Jason.I hope he gets the job done too.How about Surf Cat at Del Mar. He's pretty good right now.

re: Win or Lose, Curlin is a Rock Star

Ekrueg — Thu, 17 Jul 2008 01:42:07 GMT

I just heard about Evening Attire! That'll be a treat to see him run again! And about Curlin. I try to think of the Arc like to Kentucky Derby. (I know there not the same whatsoever) BUT. Not always does the best horse wins. Curlin could end up really enjoying the turf, he had what? Two works before the Man o' War, and yeah he didn't run on it like he does on dirt but get some more works in him and another turf race and he might turn out to really like it. I give him a legitimate chance to show up for the Arc. I rarely hear about a good US horse going over to Europe so I give him and everyone involved Kudos for even thinking about it! Then again I could be totally wrong......

re: Win or Lose, Curlin is a Rock Star

Kellie — Thu, 17 Jul 2008 00:16:59 GMT

Regarding Rggc's comment about the Handicap Triple Crown: Only four horses in history have swept it, with the last being Fit to Fight in 1984.

The Handicap Triple Crown is indeed moribund as a concept these days, and given the current stakes schedule, it's unlikely to be revived any time soon. This summer, the Met Mile came less than two weeks before the 1 1/2-mile Brooklyn, which has now been packaged as a stepping stone to the new BC (Dirt) Marathon.

re: Win or Lose, Curlin is a Rock Star

Slew.em.All — Thu, 17 Jul 2008 00:16:08 GMT

Can't wait for Casino Drive @ Oak Tree in September.His handlers are doing the best thing for him by giving him a prep on the synthetic.He's my early-bird pick for the BCC..As for Curlin: I feel he's much better on Dirt,but the BCC is @ Oak Tree so I think they should try him on the stuff.If he goes in the Arc,he will get clobbered!He just doesn't have that acceleration on turf needed to win the toughest turf race on the planet,I think.

re: Win or Lose, Curlin is a Rock Star

Huh — Wed, 16 Jul 2008 23:38:20 GMT

In an age of stars retiring early, Evening Attire is well deserving of winning this weekend at Philly and even if he doesn't, to me he still deserves Curlin like attention.

re: Win or Lose, Curlin is a Rock Star

Julie L. — Wed, 16 Jul 2008 22:06:19 GMT

Karen2 - I saw the poll and participating on it and was glad to see that people do want to see Curlin stay on the turf. Thanks.

re: Win or Lose, Curlin is a Rock Star

Jason Shandler — Wed, 16 Jul 2008 21:51:28 GMT

...and how about Evening Attire running for a BC spot this weekend? I hope the old man gets it done!!