Class Dismissed - By Richard Zwirn

re: Class Dismissed - By Richard Zwirn

The Beav — Wed, 09 Mar 2011 02:50:04 GMT

The first thing to a good breeding program is a fantastic broodmare. Without that you won't get a fantastic foal. How many foals are bred and never get to Kentucky? It is all the odds and we all know they are very small odds that any foal with get to be what we all consider "great". I am of the belief that the "horse Gods" only know who will produce that magic someone. There are soooooo many variables that come into breeding a champion, how can you say that if the mare is considered great that she won't recreate herself? Did she get all the opportunities than its Mom did? Did the moons align just right to make it happen? There is more "luck" to this game than we would admit to. My vote, start with a great mare and you are more likely to get a great baby.

re: Class Dismissed - By Richard Zwirn

dix — Mon, 07 Mar 2011 21:02:42 GMT

barillaro, My thoughts exactly!

Mares at best, baring infection, etc. may have 16 foals, most likely 4. Without something royal, there would be no secretariat.

Males do not reproduce themselves either!

re: Class Dismissed - By Richard Zwirn

barillaro — Wed, 02 Mar 2011 18:12:47 GMT

how do you know what to do? who knew Hard Tack + Swing On = Seabiscuit...Bold Reasoning + My Charmer = Seattle Slew; Reviewer+Shananigans= Ruffian; Bold Ruler + Somethingroyal= Secretariat.

I would also think that visually you'd like to pair for breeding but, you have to admit, the Zen +Racheal breedings are very exciting. I think the thing I like the most about it is, these foals are highly awaited...and...you never know...

re: Class Dismissed - By Richard Zwirn

barillaro — Wed, 02 Mar 2011 16:58:04 GMT

I completely agree w/you

re: Class Dismissed - By Richard Zwirn

Red Justinn — Mon, 28 Feb 2011 22:47:44 GMT

Nice, thoughtful article Richard. I have been doing similar since 1973. As you have already figured out, the Bloodhorse and Thoroughbred Times are essentially Breeders' Publications and selling Dreams not reality. Anyway, your study is not wasted oar at least you have company.

re: Class Dismissed - By Richard Zwirn

Gerald BortolazzobMD — Sun, 27 Feb 2011 23:00:22 GMT

How about serenas song....Sophisticat, a grade 1 winner in Europe, grand reward and harlington both grade 2 winners and serenas tune , a winner of multiple stakes. Now that's one productive mare!!

re: Class Dismissed - By Richard Zwirn

New to the Game — Sun, 27 Feb 2011 00:56:18 GMT

Our South Carolina trainer who has been a successful pinhooker of graded stakes horses says he looks at the horse first, then the pedigree.

Also when I have looked in the Bood Horse at high achieving racehorses' histories and bloodstock agencies' ratings on their nicking, some are rated C but have performed at the top.

re: Class Dismissed - By Richard Zwirn

Paseana — Sat, 26 Feb 2011 04:07:00 GMT

I don't pretend to know nearly as much about this subject as many here do, but the perception that GI-winning mares have trouble being successful broodmares, whether accurate or not, is out there.

I've always thought that the expression "left it all on the track" pertained more specifically to mares who experienced reproductive problems which made it difficult for them to conceive and/or carry to term....Genuine Risk and Paseana being the most high-profile in the last 30 years or so. Genuine Risk beat Paseana in that contest by managing two live foals.....Paseana could only get one!

I don't think it's really fair to lump mares with these kinds of problems in with the girls who had no real issues reproductively, but just couldn't produce runners.....Lady's Secret and Winning Colors are poster-girls for that club.

The other thing that needs to be considered when looking at produce records for high-quality racemares is the surface they raced on. While I have no stats at hand to support it, it seems that championship-caliber mares running on turf have a better chance of producing high-quality offspring.

That is, of course, going to bring up again the question of race-day medications, legal or otherwise, and what effect they have long term. I don't think it's an accident that North America is the only broad jurisdiction in the world that allows race-day meds of any kind and is also the only broad jurisdiction that runs major GIs on dirt for fillies and mares.

This question has always fascinated me, and frustrated me as well, because I still have so much to learn.

re: Class Dismissed - By Richard Zwirn

Pedigree Ann — Fri, 25 Feb 2011 15:50:02 GMT

John A,

Personal Ensign is not an exception. Champion older mare Relaxing, the dam of Easy Goer and his SW siblings, ran third in the JC Gold Cup vs John Henry. Althea, who won the Hollywood Juvenile, Del Mar Futurity, and Arkansas Derby, foaled 4 SWs. Champion 3yo filly and Derby 5th Silver Spoon (won Santa Anita Derby) produced Demoiselle/Top Flight/Sheepshead Bay winner Inca Queen. Dahlia, who beat the guys in 5 countries, foaled 4 G1 winners, 2 G1-placed. Chris Evert, the filly champion who ran 3rd in the Travers, foaled 2 SWs from 5 foals. Multiple champion Susan's Girl won 29 of 63 races, but in several tries versus guys managed only a 3rd (in the San Pasqual); she foaled 2 SWs, including multiple G1 winner Copelan. Hall of Famer Gallorette won 21 of 72 starts, including the Met Mile, Whitney, Carter, etc., and foaled 2 SWs.

See? I can find counter-examples without any trouble, essentially off the top of my head. Citing examples is not proof of a hypothesis, either way.

re: Class Dismissed - By Richard Zwirn

JerseyBoy — Fri, 25 Feb 2011 12:56:27 GMT

Richard:

Here is some anecdotal evidence which might give you pause.

The top sire in Europe is Galileo. He won the Irish and Epsom derbies and was the European champion 3yo of 2001. His dam was Urban Sea who won the Arc de Triomphe. She also produced champion Sea the Stars. She raced 22 times. She was named Broodmare of the Year in England and Ireland, 2001.

A top international sire was Kingmambo. He was a top miler. His dam was Miesque. She was a Breeders Cup Mile winner and international champion. She She raced 16 times.

She was inducted into Hall of Fame.

Through their descendants, Kingmambo and Galileo are likely to affect the breed for years to come.

I know nothing about the breeding of horses.

re: Class Dismissed - By Richard Zwirn

Dawn in MN — Fri, 25 Feb 2011 10:59:43 GMT

I believe it was Tesio?, or someone like that a very long time ago, who proposed that each horse has some kind of an essential element that is combined and passed along to their off-spring when they are bred.

I haven't read it for a long time, but I seem to remember that Tesio's hypothesis was something that would support the opinion about leaving something on the track.

Sometimes old wives tales, etc. are supported by science once they are proven through the scientific method. There may be some unidentified truth to the leaving-something-on-the-track theory that has yet to be quantified and proven trough science. I mention that only to support my previous point that, "Science, observations and opinions are all important in a good conversation. That is the beauty of this piece."

I had a 15.2 hand quarter-horse-type mare when I was a kid. I saved my money to have her bred to a fancy Arab stallion, she aborted. I couldn't afford to rent the trailer to bring her back. My god-father's scruffy little 12 hand P.O.A. stud got her in foal. She carried that foal to term. It was like Pedigree Ann said Mother Nature makes the call.

re: Class Dismissed - By Richard Zwirn

Donut Jimmy — Fri, 25 Feb 2011 01:52:16 GMT

Given both the current rules on steroid use, and knowing the connections of these two mares, I think it unlikely that either of them ever got any steroids on the track.

Some of the mares in the past, particularly with certain trainers, probably got lots. The fact that they are both cycling now suggests strongly that they DID NOT get steroids on the track.

Also, as a veterinarian, I can tell you that if you want to get mares to cycle early, the best "drug" is simply light. I expect both mares have been under lights and are cycling right along. Trying to use hormones to get a mare through the transitional period is a fairly fruitless endeavor.

BTW the last time I saw the stats, the advantage went to February foals, followed by January and March foals and then simply the earlier the better.

re: Class Dismissed - By Richard Zwirn

DownSouthRacing — Thu, 24 Feb 2011 23:05:42 GMT

Can someone explain to me how After Market is a steal at 7500? His yearlings from a 30k stud fee averaged 27,000. He was strictly a turf runner and has not had any baby hit the track yet. At 3000 maybe he is a steal. Definite steals right now are Quiet American, which was mentioned, Northern Afleet, Holy Bull, Pomeroy, Mass Media, Hear No Evil, Scat Daddy, Successful Appeal, City Zip to name a few. The author listed what 20 or 30 mares? Out of 30,000 foals born a year, thats a small example pool. Its kind of hard to take a multiple grade one winning mare and expect to reproduce her. Grade 1 fillys are very rare to begin with. Heck,if any person owned any horse, male or female, that won a grade 1 race just once in their whole lifetime should consider themselves lucky. Much less should they be disappointed because the superstar mare had only one foal to win a stakes.

re: Class Dismissed - By Richard Zwirn

sceptre — Thu, 24 Feb 2011 21:30:52 GMT

Perhaps more important question:

Why did The BloodHorse deem this article worthy of publication in their MAGAZINE? Who's minding the store?

re: Class Dismissed - By Richard Zwirn

mz — Thu, 24 Feb 2011 19:14:03 GMT

Yeah (coming to this late) what about Dance Smartly, Shuvee, Personal Ensign, and further back, Twilight Tear, Dahlia, Priceless Gem, Moccasin, etc.?

Mares can't have 100's of foals.

The idea of "leaving it on the racetrack" seems a very 19th Century idea to me.

This whole thing is more "lightning in a bottle" than anything else.

re: Class Dismissed - By Richard Zwirn

Karen in Indiana — Thu, 24 Feb 2011 17:51:56 GMT

Here, here, needler in Virginia!

I wonder what the Phipps family would have to say about the hypothesis given in this blog? seems to me they valued performance WITH pedigree

re: Class Dismissed - By Richard Zwirn

John A — Thu, 24 Feb 2011 17:06:01 GMT

I always believe that this problem had to be with the hormone and possibly steroid the were so strong on the track, and i referring more on the mares who ran and beat the boys i always though that they were just different and it showed after in their offspring maybe with exception of Personal Ensign.

A great topic for discussion.

re: Class Dismissed - By Richard Zwirn

Pedigree Ann — Thu, 24 Feb 2011 16:44:32 GMT

Mr. Zwirn, for your information:

Christiecat, dam in Japan of Excuse, black-type winner of over $1 million.

But as a statistician, I can tell you that anecdotes ARE NOT evidence. Anybody can pick and choose and come up with facts that back their point of view. Come back when you do a proper study.

re: Class Dismissed - By Richard Zwirn

Pedigree Ann — Thu, 24 Feb 2011 16:33:58 GMT

Dawn, in the wild, mares are bred every year, as long as they live. The herd stallion will cover each mare whenever she comes into heat. Whether they get in foal or not and carry to term is up to Mother Nature.

What is different today with TBs is the lengths to which people go to make sure the mating produces a pregnancy. Hormones are given to some mares to make them cycle and then again to make sure they don't lose a pregnancy, even if their body wants to reject it. Too much money invested to lose the foal, you see.

re: Class Dismissed - By Richard Zwirn

deb — Thu, 24 Feb 2011 16:00:05 GMT

Famous horse, not so famous horse, its a crap shoot but thats the magic of it all.

I can hardly wait for the foals of Rachel and Zenyatta to come, great or not, its like a grandma thing, you love them anyway.

re: Class Dismissed - By Richard Zwirn

Susan from VA — Thu, 24 Feb 2011 14:27:41 GMT

slee-

These mares have been kept under lights and no doubt have been cycling for some time. They were bred now so they would have an early foal without risking a December foal. I doubt if they were bred on the first ovulation coming out of transition.

re: Class Dismissed - By Richard Zwirn

Dawn in MN — Thu, 24 Feb 2011 11:06:08 GMT

I am happy to say that I am not academically qualified to comment on genetics.

I do remember learning, in high-school biology that there are generally predictable results from combinations of genetic material...most offspring will fit a general pattern, but there are always a few offspring that defy the likely results, and are "different." Secretariat’s heart and the commonly-used term “freak” for a very fast horse come to mind. I'm with Needler on the "crap shoot" part.

This topic is sure to produce fascinating conversation, and I would like to thank Mr. Zwirn for sharing his thoughts and his opinions. This piece is an interesting departure from the usual.

I encourage someone academically qualified to comment on equine genetics to chime in.

Equally important to the conversation are the people who have witnessed, studied, or spent significant amounts of time thinking about the results of breeding first-class racing mares. Science, observations and opinions are all important in a good conversation. That is the beauty of this piece.

My only thought on the topic is that I think they breed the mares too often, and for too long. Mine is a completely un-qualified opinion, fueled only by the Thoroughbred “obits” where the mares died of foaling complications, and my personal exprience of having two children.

re: Class Dismissed - By Richard Zwirn

Kyri — Thu, 24 Feb 2011 05:58:36 GMT

There are a lot of champion, graded stakes-winning stallions who don't become great sires. They get some winners and even stakes horses, because they get a lot of mares, but they don't come close to reproducing themselves -- many of my favorite racehorses, such as Skip Away, Silver Charm, Point Given, and Free House haven't really set the world on fire with their get. I suspect that the number of great racehorses who do not produce particularly well is fairly even between mares and stallions (and the mares only get a limited number of chances).

As for the idea that they can leave their vitality on the racetrack, I don't know what scientific reason there could possibly be for that. I think that firstly not all horses are prepotent, and secondly if a mare gets bred to a stallion who's a bad match for her just a couple of times, that's a large percentage of her production record.

re: Class Dismissed - By Richard Zwirn

zeno — Thu, 24 Feb 2011 04:40:20 GMT

Many years ago a very good horseman who was the manager of Windfields Farm told me you either get in on the track or in the breeding shed, very rarely do you get both. I doubt either of those two mares will throw anything significant. I hope I am wrong, for the owners sake.

re: Class Dismissed - By Richard Zwirn

sceptre — Thu, 24 Feb 2011 03:14:07 GMT

Byron-

Rather than "(i.e. they were heterozygous for the variants)", I think you'll agree better to say-As but one example (potential cause), they were heterozygous for the variants.