Good Sense - By Martin Stiles

re: Good Sense - By Martin Stiles

Abbie Knowles — Mon, 20 Jul 2009 17:55:36 GMT

Yeah Yeats is wonderful!

Wonderful to look at. Pure Class as a racehorse! He is trained by a Master of his profession whose attention to detail is legendary! Aidan O'Brien ranks right up with the best of the best! But there are a lot of brilliant trainers around worldwide!

Storm Cat and his line are great!

BUT Seattle Slew rules ok!!!!!!

God bless all true horse and animal lovers!

Best wishes

Abbie

re: Good Sense - By Martin Stiles

Karin C-C — Mon, 20 Jul 2009 05:31:19 GMT

If soundness, stamina and a good mind were sought-after traits, then people would be beating Coolmore's doors down to get to Yeats as a stallion.

Regarding the Storm Cats, they became valuable and stayed valuable for two reasons: first, despite the soundness problems that limited the careers of many, while they lasted they were GOOD. Economically you're better off having a racehorse that has a successful short career winning valuable stakes than having a racehorse that has a long career as an also-ran. Second, many of Storm Cat's sons, even the ones that had abbreviated careers, became successful sires. That's the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, what everyone is looking for: the successful sire of sires. Storm Cat has two sons in the top 10 general sires list, and a total of 12 in the top 100. They didn't get there by siring horses that couldn't run.

If you want to shape the breed, you have to make the purse money go the way you want to shape it. Currently, how many graded stakes races are there at 1-1/2 miles of longer on the main track (dirt or synthetic)? More to the point, what percentage of non-stakes races, the bread-and-butter for most owners, trainers and breeders, are carded at distances of 1-1/2 miles or longer?

You want to change the breed? Then mandate that for every race written at 6 furlongs, a comparable race for 1-1/2 miles or longer has to be carded. And add a bonus to the purses of longer races.

re: Good Sense - By Martin Stiles

Abbie Knowles — Mon, 20 Jul 2009 01:41:02 GMT

If you want to know what the perfect horse should look, race and be like as a stallion then Seattle Slew is the one for you!

The perfect mare is Dahlia!

The perfect filly is Rags to Riches

The perfect racehorse is Cigar.

The perfect hurdler/handcapper is Sea Pigeon

The perfect stayers are Brown Jack and Yeats

The perfect chasers are Captain Christy, Grand Canyon, Tingle Creek, Desert Orchid, Kauto Star and Arkle.

The perfect Flat/hurdler/chaser is Alverton

The perfect up and coming racehorse is SEA THE STARS!!!!!!!!

Well in my totally biased opinions they are!

Other perfect stallions include (in my book at least!) A P Indy, Tapit, Pulpit, Malibu Moon, Perfect Accolade (well he would have been!) Dubai Millenium(ditto), Shamardal, Dubawi, Echo of Light, Giants Causeway, High Chaparral, Galileo, Montjeu, Hernando, Cape Cross, The Minstrel, Nijinsky, Northern Dancer, Storm Bird, Storm Cat, Anything with Seattle Slew in the pedigree (well I did say I was biased!), L'Emigrant, Halling, Polish Precedent, Singspiel, Carnegie, all the Darley Stallions in fact, Nashwan, Unfuwain, the Gainesway Stallions. Any Stallion belonging to the Maktoum family, Sinndar, Dalakhani, Daylami, Kalanisi, The Aga Khan's line, Tiznow, Lemon Drop Kid oh and many more! You get the jist!

This is just my personal opinion. No one has to agree!

God Bless

Best wishes

Abbie

re: Good Sense - By Martin Stiles

robnrun — Sat, 18 Jul 2009 17:47:44 GMT

Increasingly, the rest of the horse industry considers 'race-bred' Tbs to be conformational train-wrecks, with only the lines that tend to produce the turf and distance runners as likely to produce animals that aren't one-dimensional sprinters who will break down by age five.

It used to be that the Thoroughbred was the ultimate equine athlete which would improve all other breeds, but that is fast being lost.

I suspect it won't be many decades before the racing Tb industry is in trouble because there will be no after-race market for them. Who wants a horse with long pasterns, straight shoulders, a long back (often with poor loin connection) and a goose rump? No one but the race industry, where there are plenty of expensive stallions with those faults.

The industry needs to ask whether they want to breed for the two year old quarter mile sprint or the ultimate athlete: the well balanced horse that will run a mile at close to 40mph at age four or five soundly. If the former, the general public opinion of racing will only worsen as careers shorten, more horses break down, and the after-race market declines. Do we want our industry to be classed with grey-hound racing? Because that is where it is heading in the eyes of the general public.

The Jockey Club should be a breed standard and a breed registry, horses should be eligible for breeding only if they meet certain standards of speed, stamina, soundness and conformation. But that won't happen, too much money would be lost.

re: Good Sense - By Martin Stiles

Little Guy Breeder — Thu, 16 Jul 2009 20:56:44 GMT

CRob87 - I put about zero store in the AWD because it doesn't give a true picture of the horse's inate abilities, but what he was trained for. I know horses bred to run 1-1/2 easy that broke their maidens at 6 furlongs and were never given a chance at longer than 7 furlongs because their trainers didn't know how to train for distance. We could improve the breed a lot if we made trainers go through a training course (no pun intended) to learn how to condition different types of horses. How about onsite seminars for trainers on how to condition a horse and not run him into uselessness? I'd be for that. It's only part of the problem, though.

re: Good Sense - By Martin Stiles

Race Fan — Wed, 15 Jul 2009 17:10:29 GMT

Look guys...It is not a question of breeders or how or what they breed. Its about too many horses, too many unsound or poor performing stallions, money being made at sales rather than on the track, and too many races to fill, all available at the same time at locally competing tracks. The tracks think there a shortage of horses to fill their races. How insane. We simply have too many races at too many tracks running at the same time. The great majority are short, taking advantage of the existing horse population, whose quality has dropped due to overbreeding due to a once inflated sales market and too many available races. Take a look at the extended Mid Atlantic Region; You have Belmont, Monmouth, Phila Park, Delaware, Laurel, Penn National, Charlestown, and Colonial Downs most of which card dominately short races with 6-8 horses per race if they are lucky. Other than a few turf distance races generally the longest race you find is 1 1/8 or 1 1/16 and then there are only a few of those. Laurel has a great turf course but shuts down during some of the best turf season. At least that permits Colonial Park turf racing to prosper. This is a good example of what should be done to help fill races, but even this only works for Colonial. Laurel gets little in return other than the chance to save purse money. The sales market downturn hopefully will result in a correction. Fewer horses being bred will drive quality over numbers for breeders, sellers, and buyers. There will be less pin-hooking and more breeding or buying to race. And tracks will be forced cut races due to fewer horses. I don't see the problem, and it could be the fix we need.

re: Good Sense - By Martin Stiles

edzepplin — Wed, 15 Jul 2009 16:18:52 GMT

I breed horses that first and foremostly are bred to win at the race track.I would not breed a horse that I would not race myself because many times I have to in order to sell them at the track. I am also a commercial breeder that is a realist and must provide the market what it wants or else I wont sell enough horses to stay in business. As a result we are ranked one of the top breeders of money winners in N/A by the Jockey Club with an average stud fee of $7700 for our runners.

re: Good Sense - By Martin Stiles

Tony Cheval — Wed, 15 Jul 2009 05:08:31 GMT

A good number of European-trained horses are either American-bred or have American bloodlines not too far back, I suspect it's more a training/environment issue there.

As for the article, I fully agree, there are a number of things that need to change in the way Thoroughbreds are bred, raised and trained, for starters giving them a proper start so they stop becoming the crackheads of the equine realm would help. I'm actually using this as the basis for my business plan in a college course, I still need to figure out some things though like how much to pay the management team, haha.

re: Good Sense - By Martin Stiles

Sydney — Wed, 15 Jul 2009 04:42:12 GMT

To Whatever: Aside from last year, when have the European horses proved over and over at the Breeder's Cup that they're better than the Americans?

USA bred and/or based horses have won 8 out of the last 10 BC Classics, 10 of 10 Ladies Classics, 10 of 10 BC Juveniles and 10 of 10 BC Sprints. I could keep going but I think you get the point.

The Euro-breds only win the BC turf races with any consistency but even on turf they've not shown significant dominance. For instance, horses without any USA breeding in their first generation have only won 4 of the last 10 BC Turfs. And even those 4 had "American bloodlines" in their second or third generation.

So again, where's the "more than obvious" proof that Euro bred horses are better?

re: Good Sense - By Martin Stiles

Port Stanley — Tue, 14 Jul 2009 23:28:03 GMT

To Whatever - Raven's Pass was bred in Kentucky, as was Henrythenavigator.

re: Good Sense - By Martin Stiles

Whatever — Tue, 14 Jul 2009 22:42:02 GMT

The Europeans have proved over and over each year at the Breeders Cup how much better they are than the American horses, its more than obvious. If I had the money to purchase a race horse I wouldn't by anything bred in america or with american bloodlines. I'd be going over to Europe to buy yearlings. Wait until this years Breeders Cup when the europeans finish 1, 2, 3 and 4 in the Classic; not only do the europeans run better on the turf they are better on the synthetic surfaces as well, so where does that leave american bred horses..? They'll all be running in the Synthetic Sprint or the Synthetic Mile.

re: Good Sense - By Martin Stiles

Kevin — Tue, 14 Jul 2009 22:01:42 GMT

I agree with the prior comment that it seems there are not as many distance races carded.

The racing secretary cards the races knowing the stock on hand, and with the trainers requests in mind. I say breed for stamina and distance. If the demand is there for distance races, they will be carded.

There are graded races at a mile or shorter, but the graded races over a mile, they are the races that are regarded as being truly Classic.

re: Good Sense - By Martin Stiles

CRob87 — Tue, 14 Jul 2009 21:39:10 GMT

I agree with the idea of including the AWD in a catalogue.

That information could also help a Breeder in the choice of their next Stallion as well.

But, if you show the total number of starts of each horse in a catalogue, then Couldn't that also hurt the sale amount for that foal ???

Especially if it's a foal or Grand foal of Unbridled's Song who most already know don't make too many total starts in their lifetimes.

They may run Great in those few starts, but you know they won't last too long.

re: Good Sense - By Martin Stiles

Stephi S. — Tue, 14 Jul 2009 21:29:14 GMT

Breeders don't breed for the track any more, they breed for the sales. So you end up with a horse like Storm Cat, whose get have breathing and knee problems galore, as a top stallion. Why? Because his get bring high prices at the sales, not because he throws sound horses with stamina. The breeding business has been taken over by people with what I call "investment banker mentality", they aren't looking to breed a good horse, they are looking for a profit at the sales, the bigger the better. And when you don't look past the yearling and early two year old sales, you are less likely to breed a sound runner than you are if you look further into the actual career of the horse you are breeding. So if you want horses with stamina, speed, and good sense, don't look to the big breeders, they are into the sales results, look to the small breeders who breed for the track. The ones who breed and race their own horses. That is where the sound and sensible horses will be. Not at the big breeders where the goal is to get them to the sales rather than the track.

re: Good Sense - By Martin Stiles

da3hoss — Tue, 14 Jul 2009 21:28:28 GMT

You are correct in your points, unfortunately the novice investment portfolio rules the marketplace and it says: "speed, now, profit, now".

It's pathetic that two-year olds in training have to "recover" from the sales ring.

re: Good Sense - By Martin Stiles

FourCats — Tue, 14 Jul 2009 19:16:51 GMT

Why would the breeders want to emphasize stamina? There are practically no races farther than 1 1/16 miles any longer (and not many of those). Just this year, they shortened the Fountain of Youth stakes to 1 mile (and everybody hailed the idea). And I remember when races under 6 furlongs were only for young 2 year olds. Now, there are tons of 5 and 5 1/2 furlong races for older horses. If you have a horse with stamina that isn't top class, you have no place to race.