Artificial Promises - By Darrell Vienna

re: Artificial Promises - By Darrell Vienna

Citation — Mon, 08 Feb 2010 22:45:25 GMT

To all the defenders of synthetic surfaces The facts are in ask the trainers! the problem is in DR Arthurs Figures they only count when horses are eutinized on the track only then are they considered a racing fatality Last week in 6 days 5 horses broke down training @ SA and HP now they didnt pull up and the trailer went and picked them up and were brought back to the barn to evaulate the extent of the injury. all 5 had catastophic injurys with compound factures and were put down on the track. THATS whats not in the FIGURES 5 days add up this last 2 years and all the horses that have gone home with injury. A broken tibia is the new shin buck and thats why the horse population on track in Calif is down 30% Synthetic surfaces REAL problems.

re: Artificial Promises - By Darrell Vienna

J. Rudolph — Tue, 02 Feb 2010 19:37:19 GMT

CJ: The fact remains that heel nerving is done to eliminate pain deep in the heel. Such horses are not allowed to race in IA or AZ and no longer in CA. I know I wouldn't want MY HORSE running in field of horses that were allowed to race because previously they were unsound for racing, were heel nerved, now they can race and not feel that pain. How is that FAIR to my horse and every other horse in the race? Yes, I have the option of not entering my horse but why should I have to wait when my horse is ready, the conditions of the race are perfect for him and the next race that fits him well is not for another week? At full day rates for trainers, I don't have that financial luxury.

Also, how is this FAIR to simulcast bettors who do not have access to the racing office list of heel nerved horses? If we must report to the betting public if a horse is on FIRST time lasix (as that might be more of a performance enhancer than subsequent lasix, on lasix, or on bute, then by all means, they should also know if a horse is racing when it CANNOT FEEL PAIN DEEP IN ITS HEEL! If a horse is heel nerved, it should NOT be raced and sorry, Dr. Arthur, no "grandfathering in" of a horse you nerved when in private practice before having to vote on allowing heel nerved horses to race by virtue of now being on the CHRB. An equine orthopedic surgeon wholeheartedly agreed with

me that racing a heel nerved horse creates an unfair field.

How does anyone know that the ultimate breakdown of heel nerved Refinery did not START from further breakdown deep within the heel but due to the nerving he did not feel it???? Think about it: deadening pain deep within the heel which is the very support structure and foundation for everything above. Despite their claims to contrary, there remains NO TRANSPARENCY in racing. Refinery was being followed by hundreds of people on the Internet boards and blogs. Many were worried about an injury he might suffer eventually. Word is that he suffered a cannon bone fracture. So where's the TRANSPARENCY? What really happened to heel nerved Refinery?? The silence speaks volumes.

re: Artificial Promises - By Darrell Vienna

Cj — Tue, 02 Feb 2010 01:26:06 GMT

A list of heel nerved horses is maintained by the CHRB and is availae in any Ca racing office. Last I checked there were something like one horse on that list. Interestingly enough that procedure was performed by the same Dr Arthur that is now the CHRB's Equine Medical Director. Heel nerving hasn't had any statistical impact on breakdowns. Additionally, heel nerving only deadens feeling in part of the foot and can not cover up any injury that could cause a catastrophic breakdown.

re: Artificial Promises - By Darrell Vienna

RAF172 — Mon, 01 Feb 2010 18:24:26 GMT

Does anyone know if dirt tracks are actually dirt or topsoil.I know topsoil does not usually compact and should make the surface softer.

re: Artificial Promises - By Darrell Vienna

fb0252 — Mon, 01 Feb 2010 18:05:27 GMT

i'd like to see the stats.

re: Artificial Promises - By Darrell Vienna

Footlick — Mon, 01 Feb 2010 05:14:54 GMT

Lil Darlin- Yes, I know of that technique, but it is monitored. I don't know if it could be monotored in the same way and there is not 1000 lbc focusing on a brittle leg or ankle.

Edward- thanks for the information. I thought as much but I didn't know for sure.

JM- I wish I did know something about those horses. And you are right- pre race vet inspections doesn't catch everything.

re: Artificial Promises - By Darrell Vienna

JM — Sun, 31 Jan 2010 16:51:43 GMT

"pre-race veterinary scrutiny of all starters was enhanced"

How does this apply to heel nerved horses that are still allowed to race in CA? If the horse can't feel its heel, a pre race exam is mostly useless.

Does anyone know the wherabouts of Refinery? He was heel nerved, raced and has since disappeared.

Also, a retirement home for Red Seattle was found and arrangements for his transportation was made. Then, William Lyons stopped returning phone calls after offering up a variety of excuses for the numerous delays he caused. Does anyone know where this 14 year old horse is now? His retirement home is still waiting for him.

re: Artificial Promises - By Darrell Vienna

Edward — Sun, 31 Jan 2010 03:44:40 GMT

Dirt tracks came about because horse owners would bring their best horse into town(often for the big fair in small towns all across america) to race(racing didn't start at a commercial track) and they would get a running start and race down the road to a point pre-determined. Being pre-concrete, the roads were dirt. also, if you know anything about the terrain of the west and mid-west, then it is obvious how often you are on a hard pan dirt surface.

it's amazing how little people understand what a "fact" is. It's so clear that pre-race scratching by the vet has the quickest most direct method of halting break-downs. The dirty little secret is the collusion between owners/vets/trainers and the track to let horses with no business racing that day(or week) get in the starting gate. It's a gullible lot on this site.

re: Artificial Promises - By Darrell Vienna

Connie — Sun, 31 Jan 2010 02:52:47 GMT

Robbie Rodrguez,

The day Go For Wand broke down, I decided not to watch horse racing anymore. Then, I visited Three Chimneys in March on 2006 and was inspired to follow "one on there's" in the Derby. Of course, his name was Barbaro. We all know what happened there, but, I didn't realize the similar track conditions that both horses faced. Thank you so much for that information. I'm not sure how at this point but, I'll make sure that information will help keep horses safer. It has become my life's mission.

re: Artificial Promises - By Darrell Vienna

T.J. — Sun, 31 Jan 2010 00:58:36 GMT

So wait, dirt is no longer a naturally occurring substance, and horses never ran on it until racetracks came along? That's news to me.

I'm going to guess the way dirt is maintained on racetracks is different than the dirt you find elsewhere, but how is it any more artificial than the rubber, wax, and other assorted bits that go into synthetic tracks?

re: Artificial Promises - By Darrell Vienna

Lil Darlin — Sun, 31 Jan 2010 00:06:12 GMT

A friend of mine is really into all things martial arts, and one of his training activities involves striking hard surfaces with forearms, shins, all the parts that make me think "Ouch!" According to him, the stress strengthens the bone. Is anyone familiar with this (since I thought he was crazy, but he swears by it)?

If, in fact, the stress is known to strengthen bone, perhaps in addition to our "breed for speed" and "race to breed" culture the lack of a solid training and racing base may be taking its toll on the breed as well? Our great heros of the past retired with 20+ starts, easily - not so in the modern era. They also competed at much longer distances and raced on a regular basis.

The surface never should have been pinpointed as "the" reason for breakdowns to begin with. I agree with those that say a well-maintained track is the key to success as far as surfaces are concerned. As for the health of our horses - The industry needs to take a solid look at its practices, including breeding, training, and racing.

re: Artificial Promises - By Darrell Vienna

Footlick — Sat, 30 Jan 2010 16:23:33 GMT

tea time- I have no idea why American racing concentrated on dirt or how it came about. That is a very interesting question.

re: Artificial Promises - By Darrell Vienna

tea time — Sat, 30 Jan 2010 03:39:19 GMT

The bottom line is they should be racing on the turf, its only natural. How did the dirt track come about, does anyone know? They should be racing on a natural surface. I do admire them for trying to reduce breakdowns, but it didn't work. If anyone knows how the dirt track came about, I'd like to know, for my own personal information.

re: Artificial Promises - By Darrell Vienna

Footlick — Sat, 30 Jan 2010 00:03:22 GMT

Bet Twice- it's just another no win situation. In the end, everyone will say what they want. SA will go back to dirt, horses will break down and the whole thing will start up again.

re: Artificial Promises - By Darrell Vienna

Footlick — Fri, 29 Jan 2010 15:08:00 GMT

Part of the problem in CA, imo, is that the surfaces are like night and day. I've heard trainers speculate that it seemed that the injuries and breakdowns generally occured within two weeks or so of transferring from one surface to another. Mr Vienna could comment at greater length and knowledge on this, but it does seem to make sense in the perspective that most of the injuries seem to occur at the beginning of the meet. If there was one uniform surface, with one uniform maintenance head governing the upkeep, it might help. Just remember that there was much criticism of the California tracks when they were dirt tracks too. Arlington Park's dirt track came under scrutiny when horses started breaking down. They had four different evaluators come and examine the track. All four of them said the track was fine, but the horsemen wanted the change. Arlington put their synthetic track in, I think it's polytrack like Keenland, and the horsemen seem to be pleased with it. But I don't know what to do about Santa Anita. It had drainage problems when it was a dirt track if I recall. And now, suddenly, they are aerating it and it is draining better. Should they have been aerating it to begin with? It is a mess, to say the least, in California.

Margrethe- I agree wholeheartedly. It's what has happened to the breed that is sad. Horses are being bred to be sold for high pricetags and not to race and be sound. And the fact that so many of our American thoroughbreds have less stamina influences is disturbing, because stamina brings stoutness into the breed.

re: Artificial Promises - By Darrell Vienna

Zia — Fri, 29 Jan 2010 10:46:00 GMT

Along with many other horses, I'm sure that Rags To Riches and The Pamplemousse would applaud a return to dirt.A promising 3yr. just recently

had a catastrophic breakdown

after a work at Santa Anita,so the poly doesn't always give happy endings.

re: Artificial Promises - By Darrell Vienna

Bet Twice — Fri, 29 Jan 2010 04:34:12 GMT

I'm not convinced synthetics are the answer, but not one "return to dirt" proponent has presented numbers to support his case. The West Coast used to favor cheap speed now it plays like turf. Maybe we can't ever win.

re: Artificial Promises - By Darrell Vienna

Footlick — Thu, 28 Jan 2010 20:50:52 GMT

Bryan- I agree also.

re: Artificial Promises - By Darrell Vienna

Margrethe — Thu, 28 Jan 2010 19:07:21 GMT

Of course, fatalities are not just surfaces. Nationwide, horses are over-medicated, poor breeding practices, etc.

I attended the CHRB meeting at which the numbers on synthetic safety were presented. These figures are used repeatedly by management and the media to justify their view of synthetic safety over dirt. The study compared the number of deaths on Los Al dirt with with number of horses euthanized in So. Cal thoroughbred races.

re: Artificial Promises - By Darrell Vienna

Paul A — Thu, 28 Jan 2010 18:20:49 GMT

Mike, Kinsella was a nice horse and its sad what happened to him..But do not bring the money into it for the owners. He was insured and from a financial standpoint him breaking down was the only way they were every going to get most of their money back..Sad yes, but the money part was not the issue.

re: Artificial Promises - By Darrell Vienna

Bryan — Thu, 28 Jan 2010 18:12:27 GMT

All this talk about track surfaces, and the lower breakdown rate in Europe, and nobody commented on the use of race day medication and the overall use of drugs in racing in America that separates it from most of the rest of the world. We might see a reduction in fatalities if drug use wasn't such a part of American racing, regardless of surface issues.

re: Artificial Promises - By Darrell Vienna

Footlick — Thu, 28 Jan 2010 15:07:56 GMT

Robbie- I have been saying that forever. Thank you!

re: Artificial Promises - By Darrell Vienna

Footlick — Thu, 28 Jan 2010 15:07:05 GMT

pNewmarket- Thanks for the information and the link. It's no secret that the European thoroughbred still has alot of stamina. And I did know the Germans have been very selective in the sires they stand. It's also interesting to me the amount of distance horses sprinters like Oasis Dream is siring and that Anaaba had sired. It shows that in Europe, you can breed to a sprinter and get a horse that will run up to 10 furlongs or more. Those are things thst th American breeder needs to do. Thanks again.

re: Artificial Promises - By Darrell Vienna

EMD — Thu, 28 Jan 2010 10:49:41 GMT

It's a Bird broke down at Calder this week, a suspensory injury. Fortunately, he did not have to be put down and will retire to stud. The horsemen are up in arms about the current dangers of the track surface, and well they should be. Apparently, the new track superintendent has no knowledge or experience in the job. (Churchill Downs, for some unknown reason, chose to fire his predecessor.) Track management, it appears, is relunctant to admit there is a problem -- what will it take? Although racing does not come back to Calder until May, the annual 2- year-old sale is approaching, and I shudder to think what could happen to these babies trying to prove their speed over this track.

re: Artificial Promises - By Darrell Vienna

pNewmarket — Thu, 28 Jan 2010 09:38:44 GMT

Footlick, I think it is a combination of the two.

I don't want to sound as if I'm "anti-dirt" but turf is the only truly natural surface for a horse to run on. It is what they live on in the wild and therefore what their bodies have adapted to.

Our training methods are vastly different, which must play some part - no timing of workouts, training on uphill gallops, etc.

And traditionally the best stallions have been those that have won over a mile and a half.

Of course, fashions change and in the last 10-20 years there has been a shift towards using stallions that were sprinters and milers, but not as dramatically as in the US.

The German's traditionally have the most stamina laden horses. This is due in part to the fact that they have strict rules on stallions that retire to stud (must race for at least 2 seasons and not permitted to go to stud if they have raced on any form of medication - lasix included); and partly due to the fact that German races tend to be run on very soft turf which requires a horse to be full of stamina in order to win.

You might be interested in this link about injuries and fatalities in British racing:

www.britishhorseracing.com/.../injuries-fatalities.asp

As you can see, the fatality rate in "flat" and "all-weather" races is 0.6 per 1,000 runners and, naturally, this rises to about 4 in 1,000 in jump races.

Also on the site are links to information about whip rules (which some people may find of interest) and other welfare issues such as medication, etc.