Pedigree Lament - By John Greathouse

re: Pedigree Lament - By John Greathouse

nmhiplains — Mon, 12 Apr 2010 23:58:05 GMT

John Greathouse

Take a look at the pedigree of a four year old filly breed by Douglas Arnold of Kentucky --

RICO MAMBO

I don't believe you will find a pedigree carrying as many double copy genes anywhere---raced for a 15,000 tag at Indiana Downs -June of last year hopefully she's still in the states!!

re: Pedigree Lament - By John Greathouse

nmhiplains — Mon, 12 Apr 2010 23:32:57 GMT

Yes I forgot the last two Triple Crown winners but isn't it amazing they are all out of DoubleCopy MAres

SECRETARIAT

out of SOMETHINGROYAL

SEATTLE SLEW

out of MY CHARMER

AFFIRMED

out of WON'T TELL YOU

And the leading broodmare sire

QUIET AMERICAN

out of DEMURE

Robert

Here's hoping you get a Quiet American filly out of your Northern Dancer mare!!!! Chances are she may be carrying the double copy gene.

Yes the point is the X Factor is going to another country---Somebody in Japan is buying daughters and granddaughters out of Quiet American (DEMURE),

KingMambo(MESQUE), etc for the price of last years Kentucky Derby winner MTB

^10,000.00----Just wonder if any of the contenders for the Kentucky Derby this year are out of a Double Copy mare and how many double copy mares they have in the first three generations.

re: Pedigree Lament - By John Greathouse

Crown73 — Tue, 30 Mar 2010 22:32:54 GMT

yet again another so called "NO-Know it all" wants to jump in with the X factor . . . to prove you know nothing you only need to read your own post - Secretariat is NOT the last Triple Crown winner! We've had two since then, please take your X Factor to another country!!!!

re: Pedigree Lament - By John Greathouse

Crown73 — Tue, 30 Mar 2010 20:57:33 GMT

John, the problem with breeding good pedigrees is it would require most bloodstock agents to go to a school that doesn't exist. Every farm has their "expert" bloodstock &/or pedigree expert, but sadly in most cases the true, qualified expert is rare diamond in the industry. It's just easier to say a horse is "balanced" without further explanation than to know pedigrees in depth and to be able to discuss them in regards to the individual horse or specific traits. John, you're absolutely right - however, pedigrees can also expose those pretenders of the industry quicker than a balanced horse on the track.

re: Pedigree Lament - By John Greathouse

james f webb — Wed, 24 Mar 2010 21:15:57 GMT

Until the Jockey Club stumbles into the 21st century--or the 20th century for that matter, and stops its illegal prohibition of AI, the gene pool will continue to spiral downward. Our gene pool needs massive influxes of outside blood but the Jockey Club seems a lot more interested in protecting its director's vested interests than protecting the breed. The excuses for not allowing AI have sounded like press releases from The Flat World Society for decades. Stop fiddling with "nicking" and Dosage snake oil before the gene pool disintegrates. Do something to save the breed from the two-year-olds peddlers "Flavor of the Month" mentality while there is still something to save.

re: Pedigree Lament - By John Greathouse

Ann in Lexington — Sat, 20 Mar 2010 14:05:25 GMT

Don't forget the great Florida breeders who made outstanding families out of less stellar stock. The most recent loss was that of Fred Hooper, he of the offbeat stallions (Specialmante, Quibu, etc.)and Olympia inbreeding, but before that Florida lost Tartan Farms families, full of Aspidistra and Rough 'n Tumble in so many variations, and several others. California still has the Johnstons at Old English Rancho but they have always been more miler oriented.

re: Pedigree Lament - By John Greathouse

nmhiplains — Thu, 18 Mar 2010 01:33:40 GMT

Follow out the progeny of double copy mares and you will be surprised that the majority of daughters carrying the x factor are leaving the country and going to Japan!!!

Try finding a colt or filly carrying the X-factor on the Sire's tail female line and out of a double copy mare I searched pedigreequery and found maybe one out of a hundred foals. Rico Mambo?

Try finding a son of Storm Cat out of a double copy mare---Yet everyone is rushing to bred to a son of Storm Cat---Do mare owners read---The knowledge and research ignored by the people in this industry is amazing---Find a trainer that has read Tom Iver's

"The Fit Racehorse II--or mare owner who has picked up Marianna Haun's "The X Factor". NO wonder we haven't had a Triple Crown Winner since Secretariat!!!

re: Pedigree Lament - By John Greathouse

Judy — Fri, 12 Mar 2010 18:22:09 GMT

I feel so fortunate to have trained some of these horses with the great pedigrees, for Calumet Farm and Greentree Stable. Even though I was third string trainer, the class in these horses was still evident, and they won many races for me.

There is just something about a well-bred horse that makes him stand out. they are different from all the others.

I will always remember those horses fondly, and feel honored to have been a part, albeit small, of a great era.

re: Pedigree Lament - By John Greathouse

Shiori — Thu, 11 Mar 2010 19:59:01 GMT

You forgot about Belmont and his Nursery Stud. Belmont had some of the best bloodlines in the world.

re: Pedigree Lament - By John Greathouse

Obmar — Thu, 11 Mar 2010 05:40:54 GMT

This is a article from 1960 by Mme Vuillier.

1.) The principal role of the mare is to improve the stallion.

2.) Today, the stallion's racing record, the stakes won, the class,

and the amount of money won play important roles in breeding,

because a big winning stallion may become the founder of a new

series in the Vuillier System. Formerly, these were les important.

3.) The conformation of the Thoroughbred counts for little. It is the

pedigree that most important.

4.) The Aga Khan's best race mares have not been and presently are

not his best broodmares. His best horses usually come from the

sisters and half sisters of the great winning mare.

re: Pedigree Lament - By John Greathouse

Obmar — Thu, 11 Mar 2010 05:33:57 GMT

‘‘What is your experience along that line,’’ Mr. Madden was asked,

“I will be frank with you. Too many raise horses, too few breed them!

re: Pedigree Lament - By John Greathouse

Alicia — Thu, 11 Mar 2010 03:49:39 GMT

From the time I started being involved with the sales, I couldn't wrap my mind around why buyers are after what I think look like show horses. What good is a pretty horse if it can't run?Confirmation is a tool to predict soundness, and we're talking high-caliber athletes in rigorous training....even if they have perfect legs and balance it doesn't mean that they may not take a misstep and severely injure themselves.

And generally, when culling a herd (in any other livestock industry) you cut the bottom out. Why are we shipping all of our really great horses out of the country?! This is counter-productive to building a stronger breed. Right now, the only good thing is that foreign investors are more willing than Americans to spend the money on these horses. But then all of our best are gone. Why don't we sell off some of the less productive animals...not as much money comes in, but investing that little bit back into the great ones that remain will yield a much better return in the long run. In trying to run businesses with higher return we've forgotten to think beyond tomorrow. We've forgotten the basic principles of livestock management.

re: Pedigree Lament - By John Greathouse

motelbill — Thu, 11 Mar 2010 02:37:40 GMT

A very good article. Points up some one of the problems with the horse industry in the US today.

I have been out since the early 70's and now my son wants to get in the business.

It is fascinating that he has been talking to me about this very aspect of choosing yearlings come the fall or next winter for future breeding.

When I told him the only mare we ever owned was by Bold Ruler and out of a Discovery mare he nearly died. Too bad she has been dead many a year.

Here is hoping things work out for the industry near term.....but I see many small operations going by the wayside each week in my trips from the old Forest Retreat farm to Lexington.

Sunshine and bright skies along with the spring meet at Keenland will make things better.

re: Pedigree Lament - By John Greathouse

Robert — Thu, 11 Mar 2010 02:04:34 GMT

By chance a few years ago, some friends of mine and I found a mare at a KY sale. She was very well bred, but had trouble getting in foal. Once infoal...no problems. We bought this mare and got one daughter out of her. She is now 9 years old and is our foundation mare. She has had 3 fillies and 1 colt and is in foal for 2010 to Quiet American. She is from the immediate family of Northern Dancer, tracing back to his full sister, Arctic Dancer. I will not let my friends sell any of the fillies for just the reasons spelled out in this article. Quality mares will rarely let you down. So far our 1 mare is giving us nothing but one nice foal after another, and all are by different stallions. This years foal is the first time I have actually wished for a filly, because Quiet American is becoming the next great broodmare sire. Only 3 more weeks to wait and see.

re: Pedigree Lament - By John Greathouse

Greg R. — Wed, 10 Mar 2010 22:56:53 GMT

Stop telling the truth..not that anyone will pay attention!

re: Pedigree Lament - By John Greathouse

CRob87 — Wed, 10 Mar 2010 22:42:05 GMT

Love the article.

I always looked forward to seeing the next Sam Son Farms bred horse too since most of them came from their own Canadian Dynasty of female family lines.

I also agree about the Pedigree being more important than the Conformation.

Now, i'm not sure how true this is, but i've always heard that Dark Star had the worst Conformation of any horse and "IF" that was true then it didn't seem to slow him down any.

Now "Maybe" that's also why he wasn't considered to be a Great Stallion ??? But, the point being that his lack of Conformation didn't seem to hold him back....."IF" it was true that is ???

re: Pedigree Lament - By John Greathouse

C Hamilton — Wed, 10 Mar 2010 17:19:41 GMT

I agree with your lament of the lack of depth in modern mare families. But it would be a mistake to ignore conformation, regardless of pedigree. It is true that a mare from a truly great tail-female line often out-produces herself.

But if we ignore conformation for pedigree we are on the road to "bad" becoming "normal," and we just don't see bad for what it truly is simply because we're used to it.

I want to get back to a depth of family that also produces horses that can stand up to a genuine racing career past the 3-year-old season, and with good hooves that don't need to be held together mechanically.

re: Pedigree Lament - By John Greathouse

Bellwether — Wed, 10 Mar 2010 11:59:17 GMT

ty for the GREAT info here...we have a leg up n VA...just LOOK how far we have Slipped since the Civil War...THATS ABOUT TO CHANGE...

re: Pedigree Lament - By John Greathouse

DB — Wed, 10 Mar 2010 03:57:01 GMT

Well said !

re: Pedigree Lament - By John Greathouse

sceptre — Wed, 10 Mar 2010 03:31:20 GMT

I share Mr. Greathouse's wistful lament over the relative lack today of great female families. I, too, have often reflected on this, but am somewhat uncertain if what we're noticing is actual reality, at least to such a degree. Yes, the Japanese, Europeans, and Middle Easteners did take many of our better bred and producing mares, but I feel that our increased emphasis on sales did as much, if not more to dilute many great and potentially great female lines. On a separate note, the female pool today is substantially larger than in years past, which would tend to mitigate against certain female lines coming to the fore. As mentioned, these lines today are also more dispersed since the drastic decline of the breed to race operations-the Phipps being among the few exceptions in the US. (Incidentally, *La Troienne became a Greentree (Whitney) mare, and not a Phipps mare post the Bradley dissolution. Phipps then did acquire several of *La Troienne's daughters, and made very good use of them). So, is there today less quality at the top re-the female families, or are they simply more difficult to identify? This issue and question also relates to the stallion population.

re: Pedigree Lament - By John Greathouse

nina — Wed, 10 Mar 2010 03:07:30 GMT

Agree with Lauren. The American breeders have allowed foreigners to corrupt them. Selling the 13 million 2 yo has become their standard rather than the best bred horses. It broke my heart to see Azeri,Ginger

Punch and the late Flanders leave us to be broodmares for foreigners.

re: Pedigree Lament - By John Greathouse

Rachel — Tue, 09 Mar 2010 21:52:44 GMT

a great article...

re: Pedigree Lament - By John Greathouse

Lauren — Tue, 09 Mar 2010 18:45:01 GMT

I salute you, sir. I too, addressed this in an upcoming Kentucky Derby issue (May, 2010)of American Turf Monthly in "Who Can (Can't) Get the Derby Distance?"

I pointed to our great founding fathers of the sport -- whose primary goal was to improve the breed with every successive generation. Aside from owner/breeders like the Phipps family, the great families of American turf have disappeared, and the only thing that matters to today's breeders are the bottom line -- hurry up and win. Most are breeding solely for speed, with little to no regard for stamina.

That, combined with the rampant use of permissive and non-permissive drugs since the early 1970s, has created a profoundly inferior Thoroughbred -- brittle; unable to compete without 5-6 weeks between starts;imposts over 121 considered harsh, cruel and unnecessary, and with poor aptitude to run 1 1/4 miles.

The final death knell for American classic races is the shortening of once-prestigious stakes, such as the Coaching Club American Oaks from 1 1/4 (and which was run at 1 1/2 miles for long periods)reduced for this year to 1 1/8 miles; the Mother Goose from 1 1/8 to 1 1/16, and the once-proud Suburban from 1 1/2 to 1 1/4 and this year, to what now seems the standard "route" -- 1 1/8 miles.

It is a sad commentary on the state of American racing.