Thoroughbred Soundness

re: Thoroughbred Soundness

Marc W — Tue, 03 Jun 2008 21:45:55 GMT

Shocked I did not get hate mail for my thoughts above directly on the topic, although it made a lot of sense if you think about it. It is what it is.

re: Thoroughbred Soundness

Marc W — Thu, 29 May 2008 18:46:14 GMT

I read the comments on here, and I have owned and trained both thoroughbreds and standardbreds. Here's my take

a) It takes a LOT of money to breed raise, and train a horse. A racehorse gets the finest of care of any animals save a loved cat or dog. To the most part they are NOT PETS.

b) They are bred to run fast, because that is what the sport/business requires to succeed. There are exceptions, and I love thoroughbreds, but on the whole they are not particularly smart, calm, or lovable as some other breeds of horses or other animals, they are fast though. They run with 110-130 lbs on their back in competition, which is not the way nature intended. Again, they were over many years of select breeding developed by humans to show speed for the sport of racing. They breed cats without hair, cattle, poultry with unnatural weight to make them unsuitable for life off the farm to survive, it is business people-is it fair-maybe not, but during their careers they are pampered. The thoroughbred would not exist and become extinct if not for racing. Chickens and cows are pent up in a small area until they are killed for meat-is that fair? By luck of the draw humans rule the world, whether by grand design or not we are the strongest. The strongest always have treated lesser animals AND PEOPLE poorly for either food or sport. See the Roman Empire-its just the way it is.

c) Peta members/those who think horse racing is inhumane if looking for causes what about Darphor genocide, world hunger, or maybe boxing, for a cause? (Anybody have a verbal discussion in the last ten years with Mohamed Ali?) What about these no holds barred fighting events? Yes being human, they have a choice animals don't but like horses if they are good at what they do-they are pampered.

d) Football, hockey, rugby, or even non-contact baseball, watch the injury reports, people are maimed and killed on occasion. I ran track and played hockey, I have had two operations on my knee, teeth knocked out; thoroughbreds are not exclusive to sports injury. All unnatural pressures to perform on any form of life might cause injury it is part of the game. Drugs used, obviously are not limited to horses for better performance. Should we end all sports because of risk of injury?

Maybe we should force models to eat, get rid of *** implants, botox, and breed hardier women while were at it. Midgets shouldn't marry each other, nor sickly people, or people with gene pools that are likely to pass on hereditary diseases, why stop at racehorses? People- they are bred to run fast for our gambling urges, that is why they still exist as a species cruel or not!

re: Thoroughbred Soundness

Duncan Ranch Bloodstock — Wed, 28 May 2008 19:39:27 GMT

Callaghan.

Now on to your "Other" questions about my operation.

Do I make money? Obviously I try to. Am I rich? No. But this ranch has been in my family for more than eighty years no. I am the fourth generation of my family to manage it. (We are also a working cattle ranch), and I daresay I do it for a lot more than the money, since I could probably sell my land and get a much better return on other investments.

How many horses do I dispose of because they aren't earning their keep? Some, but I generally do this when they first come off of the track, and I have been more sucessful and get a bigger return on my investment by training the horses for other diciplines, such as barrel racing, hunter jumper, dressage, pollo, so on and so forth.

Since there is no viable killer market in Texas anymore we have had to become more creative with what we do with our cull stock. I would much rather take a little time and train a horse to run a barrel pattern for some little girl and get 2,500 to 5,000 for that horse than just take it straight to the sale and get 200.

Do all breeder's do this, no, but I can't speak to their practices, I can only speak to mine.

I've got to say, I preffered it when we had a killer market in Texas, to me it was SO much more humane than what they do in Mexico now, and it got useless horses out of the market. Right now we have way too many horse running around out there and it is devalueing the entire horse market. That makes it hard on the entire industry, and I daresay, your line or work as well, though I expect you will differ on that opinion.

Now I didn't sell too many "Killer's" when we had a killer market, I trained our horses in other diciplines even back when Morton was still running, and while I do LOVE my horses, I keep in mind that they are still livestock, and not "Pets".

Now that doesn't absolve breeder's from caring for their animals, and it certainly doesn't absolve me, but I do love my horses and they are well cared for. I wouldn't do it if I didn't love it, and I wouldn't own the animal if I couldn't care for him in an appropriate manner. I daresay I could make more "Money" doing other things.

I hope this answer's your questions about my heartless lil ol' operation out here in West Texas. I will say, I appreciate what you are doing with regards to horse rescue, and I understand it takes an activist mentality to do that, but I hope you will at least try to understand that not all of us are just in it for a quick buck. I do not share all of your views, but I can appreciate where they come from. I would expect the same courtesy.

re: Thoroughbred Soundness

Duncan Ranch Bloodstock — Wed, 28 May 2008 19:02:07 GMT

Callaghan

You still don't get what I'm saying because you want to believe in a paradigm that I'm not even talking about...

As a breeder I try to breed horses that are fast AND durable. EVERY line has known defects, even if one particular stud from that line exhibits excellent conformation and had good durability, he can still throw that defect that exists in his blood. As a breeder, my job is to first, know what those defects associated with that particular line are, and then pair a mare with that line that will maximize the strengths and minimize the weakness'. THERE IS NO PERFECT LINE OF HORSE!!! It's the only way to get a horse that is durable and can still have the jets to win a race...

Believe it or not, I'm with you on some of what you say. In my post I talk about how they don't keep statistics on non-catasrophic breakdowns. And they should, it would help the industry. When we retire a horse from the track we should have to send in retirement papers with the reason the horse is being retired. Those statistics would be enormously helpful as a breeder. Statistics on Catastrophic breakdowns are almost meaningless, because statistically, it is such a fluk.

I would have to be an idiot to NOT use the Storm Cat line in my breeding program just because there is an occasional issue with thier knee's (SOMETIMES). There are so many good things about that line, speed, conformation, duribility, etc, etc, but I would have to be an equal idiot to breed a mare to a Storm Cat lineag stud if she has known issues with her own knee's. Admitedly, If I do that, I'm just asking for trouble. Doe's it happen, of course it does, would I do it...not a chance. But, if we had the stats on non-catastrophic breakdowns, and buyers could see that horses from a particular breeder are more apt to break down, belive me, that breeder would change his ways or quickly be out of business.

Look, I run horses as well as breed them, and I want speed and durability. If one of my colts only gets an out or two then bows a tendon. I just lost a ton of money. If I sell a horse that only gets a couple of outs, then chips an ankle, or bows a tendon. That buyer is probably not going to be happy.

The whole jist of my post is that I believe that in large part the problems we have today is not the breeding, or the Native Dancer line, most of these horses are pretty correct conformation wise and could be very durable if we let them mature enough before we put them in training. We need to stop running horses that aren't ready for the track yet, big gangly two year olds and even three years olds that simply aren't mature enough to run, should not run. We need more, and better races for older horses, that might relieve the pressure to get a horse to the track as a two year old, just to have a shot at the big money.

They always use the statistic that there are No More Catastrophic Breakdowns in two year olds than any other age group, but I would wager any amount of money that two year olds and early three year olds have more NON catastrophic breakdowns than any other age group...anyone wanna take my bet???

Don't lay it all off on the breeder's guys, there are more problems with racing practices than just how we pair our mares to our studs...

re: Thoroughbred Soundness

FormerFan — Wed, 28 May 2008 16:50:29 GMT

The fate of these racehorses after racing is a serious problem. Look at Little Cliff. A former Nick Zito trained horse who ended up at a feedlot and was saved from slaughter by a rescue Organization. This was just recently, however it happens all the time. Little Cliff was lucky because another day or two on that feedlot and he may have been no more. Either way though, he was a goner if this rescue group didn't buy him and pay slightly more than the butcher guy to acquire him. This horse was in Nick Zitos barn just a few years ago. My point here is that Nicks wife had put a label on the jockey club papers indicating to the current owner that if Little Cliff needs a home after racing to please contact her. The current owner did not give a hoot and sent him down the river. MONEY. Unfortunately, There more low lifes in this industry then there are good people and his wife can not possibly place every single retired thoroughbred but breeders can get involved and some have, but like I said this sport will always have more low lifes than good people. That's what hurts the horses and the sport the most. Not to mention all the DRUGS and steroids these animals need in order to perform. Its ludicrous that any healthy animal would need Lasix to run.

re: Thoroughbred Soundness

C. Callaghan — Tue, 27 May 2008 23:19:59 GMT

Duncan Ranch-

Now I believe it is you who needs to "listen close and get it right this time". I never said Native Dancer was the only horse with conformational defects (obviously). Not every horse with his lineage will break down (obviously). But trying to use certain broodmares to correct out known conformational faults rather than choosing animals of quality who are conformationally sound and demonstrate the ability to pass their durability onto their progeny is only hurting the industry. I am NOT the only one saying this. Did you see the round table discussion prior to the Preakness? Even the "experts" like Dr. Larry Bramlage stated in the discussion and in interviews following the Eight Belles breakdown that current breeding practices are a large contributor to the fragility of the thoroughbred, and that many breeders are choosing speed over durability. The NTRA admits that breeding practices need to be looked into. Bill Nack goes into enormously detailed discussions about pedigree and breeding in his books on Ruffian and Secretariat, including discussions about the Native Dancer line. He knows his stuff about pedigrees and the information is out there...I recommend his books to anyone who wants to learn more about this aspect of the industry.

And let's get real, you wouldn't be in the breeding business if you weren't making good money at it, because it's a lot of work and no one would do it if it wasn't profitable. For every non-productive mare that you keep around because you are fond of her, how many do you dispose of because they aren't earning their keep? I think it's easy for you to tell me to walk a mile in your shoes before I express my opinion but really I could same the exact same to you. Every week I work around horses who have come off the track crippled, lame and mostly forgotten. Some are only two or three years old but you'd think they were much older by the way they hobble around. Just like you, I work around horses too but I don't ask anything of them, just try to help them live out the rest of their lives pain-free and in peace. Most of the time when we are scraping for funds to care for these horses we find ourselves asking...where are the breeders and owners now? How much concern do we see on their part over the fate of these horses that have put money in their pockets when they were racing? And too often the answer is this...not a DAMN PENNY'S WORTH OF CONCERN.

re: Thoroughbred Soundness

Freespirit — Tue, 27 May 2008 18:23:40 GMT

Former Fan, this is kind of off the topic, but when you mentioned what happened in Puerto Rico to horses who don't make it on the track, well, right here the same happens daily. I personally am more concerned about what is happening every single day to horses that can't win a race - their fate. Plenty to go slaughter as there just isn't enough homes for them. Why can't they just be euthanized humanely. But, that is a different topic. I just had to throw that in though

re: Thoroughbred Soundness

Shirley in Iowa — Mon, 26 May 2008 18:45:59 GMT

This is a wonderful discussion. Very informative. An Eyeopener to the casual fan.

It seems to me that several suggestions could be immediately adopted. Such as dump the drugs. Others will take more time and a change of mindset.

As long as horses are owned by corporations, such as Big Brown, and traded with a Wall Street mentality, horses like Big Brown suffering from inferior feet will be raced on seeking the Triple Crown on hooves built up with epoxy, fiberglass or some other such material, cracks "laced" together with wires and their shoes glued on.

BB is a precocious, speedy colt. But he's just a colt with bad feet. I pray for him, every race, that his feet won't fail and he'll make the circle safely.

re: Thoroughbred Soundness

Racingfan — Sun, 25 May 2008 02:48:57 GMT

One thing I can't understand that I keep hearing over and over is that horses today aren't being bred for soundness. Why on earth would any breeder NOT be concerned with soundness? Does that even make logical sense? There are thousands and millions of dollars at stake in breeding and sales as well as racing so why would a breeder want unsound horses representing them..?

I don't believe that horses are any more unsound today than in the past. There are a much greater number of horses running now and there is a HUGE amount of publicity surrounding injuries--that is why is seems so much worse. Today's trainers also race the horses much more lightly and owners retire them to stud early for the huge income but that does NOT mean that these horses are not capable of doing what their ancestors did. It isn't attempted so everyone assumes they can't handle it - but how do we know....? There seems to be a whole lot of assumptions out there.

re: Thoroughbred Soundness

dancerfan — Sun, 25 May 2008 00:48:42 GMT

Did I say something wrong that my two posts have not appeared? Sorry if so....?

re: Thoroughbred Soundness

Dancerfan — Sun, 25 May 2008 00:28:57 GMT

To C. Callaghan and FormerFan:

If either of you have studied pedigrees you will see that Native Dancer does not just appear in the bloodlines of horses who have broken down. Rather you will see that he appears in the bloodline of just about EVERY top horse racing today and for the past many years and guess what..? The vast majority of those have NOT broken down! He was an amazing horse who did things "unsound" horses couldn't even begin to do (such as: racing 4 times in one month as a 2 year old and racing 6 times in 10 weeks through his triple crown series!). He was badly managed but that was not his fault! He has been an incredible influence on the breed so stop trying to blame him for today's accidents!!

re: Thoroughbred Soundness

dancerfan — Sat, 24 May 2008 18:36:44 GMT

TO C CALLAGHAN AND FORMERFAN:

The reason you see Native Dancer blood in horses that breakdown is because almost EVERY top horse that is/was racing has Native Dancer blood. So do all the great ones who DON'T break down which is by far the vast majority! Stop trying to blame that great horse whose had an amazing influence on the breed for the unfortunate accidents that sometimes occur in racing!

re: Thoroughbred Soundness

Duncan Ranch Bloodstock — Sat, 24 May 2008 00:45:35 GMT

TO: C. Callaghan

I don't appreciate you misrepresenting what I stated plainly in my post. I admit that I stated that I wouldn't necessarily shy away from a line because it has some known issues, but here is the key part of my post, I would breed to that line “IF” I think I have a mare that would strengthen those weakness' and benefit from the strengths' of that particular line, then yes, I will breed to that line without reservation. My point is this...now listen closely...don't mess it up this time...There is no line in any breed of horse that is entirely conformationally correct, AND would throw that "correctness" 100 percent of the time. Sorry, it just doesn't exist in this flawed world of ours.

Now you can blame the Native Dancer line all you want, heck from what I understand about your previous post you would like to outlaw it, but the fact is Native Dancer blood shows up in more that 65 percent of horses bred in North America. So to say that Native Dancer is the root of all evil might look right on paper, but when you look at it on a per capita basis, I seriously doubt they have any more catastrophic break downs than any other line. According to the Jockey Club in 2007, basically 1.98 horses have a catastrophic breakdown for every 1000 horses that run a race, that is down from 2.35 in 1975 (Back in what you described as the glory days of racing) but no one keeps statistics on horses that end their career on an injury that is not catastrophic. Now, If you can supply proof that Native Dancer is to blame, I would love to see those statistics. I can’t find them anywhere… Just because a couple of famous horses have a lineage on their paper’s that is from a dominant line in North America anyhow, and they break down is hardly conclusive evidence of a problem with that line.

You talk about how I’m lining my pockets with money, oh if my banker could only get so lucky…Tell you what, call me a heartless moneygrubber when you’ve stayed up till three in a morning on a freezing night trying to teach a new born foal from a maiden mare how to nurse. Or when you’ve rushed that foal to the vet with diarrhea, and stayed there for hours keeping it calm while they run it fluids. Call me a money grubber when you’ve had to put down your first brood mare who turned thirty last month and hasn’t had a baby in seven years, but you kept her around because you loved the old girl. Call me a money grubber when you spent three hundred dollars to have her buried on your farm rather than seventy five to have her hauled off to the rendering plant. Tell you what buddy….call me a money grubber when you make your living from these magnificent animals. We love them, we cry over them, we cheer them…it’s a personal relationship, and something you will never understand until you’ve actually done it.

In closing, the whole point of my previous post was to say that you were wrong in implicating one single line as the whole problem of durability in the breed. Our durability issues go deeper than a few high profile catastrophic breakdowns. It’s the three year old that ends his short career with chips in his ankles, or the two year old that gets just one or two outs then bows a tendon. As a breeder I try to breed horses that are fast and durable. Anything else won’t pay the bills, and yes, even though I love my horses, it is a business. My thinking related in my previous post was that we would have less breakdowns, not if we stayed entirely away from the Native Dancer line, but if we let our horses tell us when they were ready to run. Some horses mature faster than others, and some just aren’t ready to run as a two year old, or even a three year old. It’s just that simple. If we wrote more races for four year old and older horses there might be less pressure to get that horse to the track as a two year old. I believe that therein lies the real key to the durability issues we face.

re: Thoroughbred Soundness

Nancy P. — Thu, 22 May 2008 04:32:08 GMT

Who is listening, or rather who is reading the comments here and at all of the other sites related to Thoroughbred racing?

Clearly not the ones who have it in their 'grasp' and power to reverse the utterly detrimental physical state that these beautiful horses are now laboring and losing their lives in.

Do you really think the people who are the racing industry really care about these horses other than the money or the massage their egos

receive?

Studies have been conducted, conferences and forums have been held, more committees have been formed to yet study the same issues ad infinitum. The powers that be don't really care what you and I think, that is why nothing will change for these wonderful and beautiful athletes that the rest of us cherish.

re: Thoroughbred Soundness

Liz — Wed, 21 May 2008 22:39:17 GMT

I think the most effective ways to encourage breeders to select sounder crosses, and buyers to select the sounder bloodlines are incentive and transparency. First, increase the number of high value races available only to older horses, and increase the number of distance races, especially important distance races.

Second, transparency is a vital part of recovery and reform. This business keeps statistical measures of every possible value that might provide a key to the winning edge, except for the one most important value that could help guide breeders and owners to make informed decisions in the breeding shed and the sales ring. It is time to provide very specific records of breakdowns and allow the rationale of the market to drive the future of the breed.

Don't worry, I know how radical these ideas are, I'm not holding my breath...

re: Thoroughbred Soundness

macawwoman — Sun, 18 May 2008 16:42:56 GMT

Garrett, There was no "changing my mind" about publishing your comments. I had a major feature to complete last week and I traveled to the Preakness so I didn't read any comments for a while. If you noticed, quite a few comments that had been delayed were posted at about the same time as yours. It wasn't any conspiracy.

re: Thoroughbred Soundness

Garrett Redmond — Sun, 18 May 2008 04:42:20 GMT

Happy to see you changed your mind and published my comments on The Jockey Club.

I applaud your courage. I hope it may be an example for our industry media.

re: Thoroughbred Soundness

FormarFan — Sat, 17 May 2008 18:01:06 GMT

In about 15-20 years from now people will bet on horse races not for who is going to win, place or show, but for who doesn't break down. Who's left at the finish is how it will be some day soon. They performed an autopsy on Eight Belles and they found nothing. This doesn't surprise me because I never thought she was being juiced. I always will feel that she was whipped and pushed to her absolute limit. Her body, legs and determination could carry her no further. She was literally raced to her demise. By using a whip to hit her and FORCE HER to go faster, because she wouldn't have done that on her own, her body gave out when she had nothing left to give. That poor filly was so exhausted she was unable to take one more stride and all her weight, energy and everything she had left in her came crashing down on those paper thin Native Dancer related ankles. What is going on here, can nobody figure this out with some simple common sense. This accident wasn't freak either. This happens to horses when they are EXHAUSTED. It is that difficult of a concept to understand.? A tired horse, nothing left to give, trying to come to a stop but so exhausted that their last stride is literally their last stride. The horseracing industry must think the public is stupid. Jerry Baily's on tv yesterday with Randy Moss discussing the Eight Belles accident and all the improvements that have been made to racing and he says that great strides have been made as to laminitis. Is he kidding, or what.? Great strides have been made with laminitis, since when, because it killed Barbaro last year and continues to kill horses every day. The horse racing industry taking out both sides of their mouths. Does anybody know what happens to race horses in Puerto Rico that can not make it on the track? Pick up a copy of the Sarasota Herald tribune today, and you'll find out more about this lovely sport that kills horses every day.

re: Thoroughbred Soundness

C. Callaghan — Sat, 17 May 2008 08:58:38 GMT

To the team at Duncan Ranch Bloodstock...I am glad that your 2 broodmares from Native Dancer lineage were able to race as long as they did, however the fact that they did does not negate the truth of my post. Obviously not EVERY horse bred from that line will break down....but one cannot help but find a connection through a little research. You are right in saying that there is more than one line with conformational defects however the fact that you knowingly continue to breed your horses to sires with these known defects only serves to prove my point - that you, and so many other breeders such as yourselves, care nothing for the longevity of this sport or the animals themselves as long as you are lining your pockets with money.

re: Thoroughbred Soundness

Garrett Redmond — Fri, 16 May 2008 19:41:41 GMT

Did you decide to censor my Comments about The Jockey Club being the last body we need to decide on breeding?

If so, the "Establishment" welcomes you.

re: Thoroughbred Soundness

Sam Anderer — Fri, 16 May 2008 05:30:24 GMT

Many of the points addressed have their merits. No one has addressed the differences in the nutrient content of the feed fed these horses now, compared to the nutrient content of the feed in the 1970's. Also, what about care methodologies? Some trainers, as a matter of routine practice, stand the horse in ice water on a daily basis. I do understand that cold will reduce inflammation, but to do this on a routine basis when there isn't any medical reason to do so could be asking for trouble. Cold will retard blood flow, which would then retard the healing properties of the blood. Have any studies been done about how bone reacts to freezing temperatures; such as causing the bones to become brittle? Add to that the ligaments,tendons, hoof wall, etc.,

all the elements of the legs.

What about not spending the bulk of their time outside? Is this a problem of not enough money to provide such an environment? Or is it because these horses spend most of their time moving from track to track, the trainers don't own any property where they can send them for out time? Tracks don't have enough room to provide such facilities?

What about waiting for the more fragile bloodlines to mature more(not race at 3)? Money invested.

I hope some of these questions will be answered by those who have been slated to fill the various commissions and committees designed to look at racing safety. "Course there is that old adage, "If you want something to take forever, give it to a committee".

re: Thoroughbred Soundness

Jim — Fri, 16 May 2008 02:36:01 GMT

I'm very disappointed in what I've been able to read about the necropsy report on Eight Belles. First, I was hoping there would be something about her physical maturity. Her size and stage of development seem to be issues. Second, I was expecting they would honor Larry Jones' request to check for steroids. Sure Larry makes me angry sometimes, especially with his whining about Street Sense, but he's a breath of fresh air for the sport and I root for him and his horses. He does have some very nice horses.

re: Thoroughbred Soundness

Deb — Thu, 15 May 2008 22:12:00 GMT

So, now Big Brown is the next super horse to race a handful of races and retire at age three. Why would the racing industry want this horse to win the Triple Crown? I say make the Triple Crown for 4 or 5 year olds. Eliminate Breeders Cups for 2 year olds and create more distance/turf racing. Eliminate race day medication. Let's challenge (incent) breeders and owners to develop a stronger, more stamina influenced horse. You know, like we used to. Then, when a horse of incredible talent and potential marketing force comes on the scene, they'll be around longer than 3 months before they retire.

re: Thoroughbred Soundness

JS — Thu, 15 May 2008 19:27:40 GMT

Racing has become a business dominated by commercial breeders instead of breeders breeding to race.Unfortunately, the buyers demand brilliance .With the consequences being horses that are unsound and never race after their 3 yearold year-if they get that far.Excessive medication is another big problem which needs to be drasticly curtailed. FInally, more races are need for horses that are stayers even though today we have few true ones.None of these things is likely to happen as the industry is far too disjointed and self destructive and will act only when its probably too late..

re: Thoroughbred Soundness

Theresa from Maui — Thu, 15 May 2008 19:23:54 GMT

No doubt there are some stallions who are known for not throwing sound horses, but I think the truly savy racehorse racing managers, trainers and owners in the industry know this and avoid those bloodlines. Not only does the industry need to change its approach to the breeding aspect, the owners and trainers need to step up the plate as well and rethink their responsibilities. I raced in France for two and a half years and made a point to observe and learn their training techniques. Their horses sometimes do not run until late 3 y.o. or at times, 4 y.o. They are not hammering on 2 y.o.s to be blown out 3/8's at sales as we do here in the U.S. The Europeans condition, condition and condition more and focus on the horse's health and soundness before they are run. They run when they are ready and mature enough. Oh, and our owners must step up to the plate as well. For example, why did the owner of Eight Belles stand by and allow her trainer, who weighs 180+ lbs. to gallop this young filly. I find in the better race stables for the average exercise rider to weigh no more that 140-150 lbs. Come on guys, use some common sense here.