Mixed Feelings

re: Mixed Feelings

KatintheHat — Thu, 14 Aug 2008 16:15:40 GMT

Big Brown is slated for "soft" surfaces (for whatever reason). I assume it is soundness issue. He started on turf, his second race was slated for turf (but moved due to track condition issues), and given the outcome, how could his owners/handlers not get Triple Crown fever? I remember quite well during the Triple Crown Races (before the Belmont/quarter crack issue), that one route to the Breeders Cup Classic made public (Dutrow?) for Big Brown was the Haskell, the JOCKEY CLUB GOLD CUP, and then the BC. I remember this quite well as at the time I thought they were taking the same path that Curlin took. It makes sense to have a race between the Belmont and the JCGC for the horse, you take your horse to the JCGC to meet older horses, and the BC. A HOY pathway. Big Brown isn't going to the Woodward or the JCGC because he is off dirt. Curlin isn't going to the Breeders Cup because of the synthetics. This was announced some time ago. I agree with a poster on the other blog that thinks Asmussen may have been "tramautized" by Pyro's performance at Tampa. And the issue of the brand new track at Santa Anita, and the issue of Curlin needed adjustment time, etc. I don't think these people are necessarily avoiding each other, they are just looking out for their horses. Nothing wrong with that. I certainly don't understand why they need to goad each other though. Perhaps it is public pressure? And maybe Mr. Dutrow's comments are getting under people's skin a little? I'm sure he is enjoying that ;) .

re: Mixed Feelings

Beth — Thu, 14 Aug 2008 01:02:09 GMT

All I got to say it hats off and mega kudos to Mr. Jackson for issuing this challenge to Big Brown's owners and his handlers.

Mr Jackson really does care about the sport and the fans of horse racing. He has kept Curlin racing as a four year old and is also considering racing him as a five year old. How rare is that these days?

The guantlet has been thrown down!

This is great stuff ! I reminds me of the challange made by the owner of Seabiscuit, to Sam Riddle, the owner Of War Admiral, for a match race.

So lets see who will be ducking who...

re: Mixed Feelings

Julie L. — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 22:32:56 GMT

I agree Mr. Haskins.

re: Mixed Feelings

Steve Haskin — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 21:50:03 GMT

I sure would have loved to see Denis in the Travers. He was getting better with each race.

re: Mixed Feelings

Julie L. — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 20:03:25 GMT

Wanda - I too am a fan of Denis of Cork and believed with maturity he would get only better, let's hope all goes well with him and we will get to see him race again, I think he deserves to race at age 4 so he can show to all just what a good horse he really is.

re: Mixed Feelings

Wanda — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 14:39:36 GMT

Steve: I was a D of C fan early this spring and I remember reading your comments about him. I was crushed when I read he'll be out for 60 days from a hairline fracture. Hope everythings going well and the time off helps him mature somewhat. I always thought he needed more time to get his act together.

re: Mixed Feelings

MonicaV — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 01:29:05 GMT

LoriM,

Thank you for the compliment! I have always loved horses and I love thoroughbreds most. There is nothing more beautiful than a thoroughbred in full flight. As it says at the Horse Park "Thou shall fly without wings".

They are wondrous and one of God's greatest creatures.

re: Mixed Feelings

Steve Haskin — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 00:08:18 GMT

OK, folks, it's time to take this into the blog stable if you wish to continue. I'm about ready to post another one. I will still respond to any remaining normal comments from this blog in the blog stable. I will be away next week, so this next one will be my last until after the Travers. In weeks to come I will do more historical perspectives and a reprint of a seven-year-old story as we get close to 9/11.

Just a quick note to Badger, when you write: "To complain about a "synthetic track specialist" winning a race makes no more sense than complaining about a "turf specialist" winning a grass race," that race I was talking about is the BC Classic for Horse of the Year honors. When they start running the BC Classic on turf, I think you might hear a few complaints, even, perhaps from you.

As for Big Brown -- the second coming of Pegasus?.One for the ages? Care to point out how saying he ran a better race in the Haskell than one might think equates to those lofty descriptions you tossed out?

See, I said I wouldn't respond to those kinds of posts anymore. That's it, my lips and fingertips are sealed. Time to move on to other subjects. Big Brown and Curlin? Never heard of 'em.

re: Mixed Feelings

GSOBadger — Tue, 12 Aug 2008 23:29:42 GMT

I always enjoy Steve's comments. However, there are two things that are bothering me.

1. All this complaining about synthetic tracks puzzles me. There was as much difference between various dirt tracks (say Keeneland vs. Belmont) as there is between a given synthetic track and a given dirt track. To complain about a "synthetic track specialist" winning a race makes no more sense than complaining about a "turf specialist" winning a grass race. All I know is that really great horses don't need excuses - those who do may be good but they aren't great.

2. I just don't get the fascination with Big Brown. Sure he's a nice horse, but his last five (non-Belmont) Beyers are 106, 106, 109, 100, and 107. In comparison, as a three year old Tiznow ran Beyers of 103, 107, 115, 114, 119, and 116. Yet no one talked about him as the second coming of Pegasus. Likewise, Bernardini put together a string of Beyers such as Big Brown can only dream about. So yes, BB is a very nice horse, but c'mon, he's not even close to being one for the ages off what he's done so far.

re: Mixed Feelings

Julie L. — Tue, 12 Aug 2008 22:08:58 GMT

One thing I have noticed among many is that people will bring up the fact that Curlin did not win the Kentucky Derby, if we look back at that time frame Curlin was not a very experienced racehorse by that time as he did not run at age 2 and the fact that he got up for 3rd was pretty impressive for his limited experience and then two weeks later wins the Preakness and then battles it out with a pretty tough female who beat Hard Spun (one of my favorites) in the Belmont while Curlin was only ahead back in second says alot not only for Curlin but for Rags to Riches whom some people have made references to her being "a girl" that Curlin lost to, some of us "girls" can be pretty fast racehorses (Ruffian, Go for Wand, Lady's Secret, Zenyatta) and let's not forget Eight Belles who ran a great race finishing second in the Derby so enough about losing to "a girl" and enough about how a fairly green horse managed a good 3rd in the Derby.

re: Mixed Feelings

Steve Haskin — Tue, 12 Aug 2008 21:35:06 GMT

Kelly, as long as you keep misquoting or misinterpreting me, feel free to kiss up to me all you want :) I'm a very insecure person and kissing up to me will work every time :). Now, remember, I'm putting happy faces all over the place.

Brad, I have not heard a word about the Santa Anita surface. I dont think driving there is going to tell you much. We won't know anything about it until horses start racing over it. I will not go by what Santa Anita officials say about it and how great it looks. That wont mean a thing until the meet opens.

So, you noticed my early morning comment. I sleep in increments and you never know when I'll be up and at the computer.

Hi Ken, good to hear from you again. Thank you for mentioning my tout of Denis of Cork so soon after my Monba massacre was brought up. It kind of neutralized that a little for me. It reminded me that I did have something right about this year's Derby. All I'll say about BB and Curlin is what I said before -- Clark Handicap or bust.

re: Mixed Feelings

LoriM — Tue, 12 Aug 2008 21:18:40 GMT

Steve,

I just have to say how much I enjoy reading your postings, so don't even think about stopping! I also want to add that if you are a little flumoxed over some of the response you recieved from some bloggers, check out Randy Moss's blog on the NTRA site, written along the same vein that you started this posting. Certainly not near the amount of posts of this blog,`but similiar responses. I just can't get over the passion this subject seems to evokewhether you are a BB fan or a Curlin fan.

I have been wondering about one thing regarding Mr. Jackson's decision to race Curlin as a four year old, and looking for some feedback here. He seems to get a lot of credit for bringing Curlin back "for the fans". I have to think that the ownership issues surrounding Midnight Cry stables and Curlin could have turned off more than a few breeding operations, so it made sense to race him and hope that a year would bring some closure to that whole mess. This is not meant as censure of Mr. Jackson...I know he has done nothing wrong, butI am not ready to hand him any special kudos for racing the horse this year...even though I am glad that we do get to enjoy Curlin this year.

On another note, as a marketing executive, I think the industry should really take note of these blogs (if they are not already) because they can be pretty telling as to what their consumer and fan base are feeling. Bloggers tend to be your most engaged consumers. Blogging can help "build" engagement. I myself am a little amazed at the amount of blogs by fans of the female persuasion, which I think is terrific. I used to feel all alone. Nothing aginst the guys, but I particularly enjoy reading Monica and Karen's posts. It just goes to show...chicks dig horses!

And this chick also digs good turf journalism. Thanks again, Steve.

re: Mixed Feelings

draynot — Tue, 12 Aug 2008 20:05:30 GMT

KatintheHat,

It's simple, Curlin would have won in a rout and the Big Ole Browneye would have folded the tent and been pulled up. No way he was catching Street Sense that day.There is no comparison of the talent that they faced in the Derby, Curlin faced far better. Don't forget the fact that Brownie had been in serious training far longer than Curlin at that time of year. Big Brown had real time racing experience and subsequent hard training months longer than what Curlin had by the 1st. Saturday in May of their 3 yr old careers. That makes a huge difference at that stage of their life. Brownie would just be another name if he had been born a year earlier.

re: Mixed Feelings

kenfromRI — Tue, 12 Aug 2008 19:44:14 GMT

Steve,

Just for reference, I'm the old guy who introduced myself to you at the Hall of Fame ceremonies and thanked you for steering me to Denis of Cork through your Derby workout reports to complete my trifecta hit Derby day.

As far as BB goes, I think why I was disappointed as well as many other BB backers on Haskell day was the "way" BB won as opposed to his other wins. He seemed to win effortlessy in those other wins, not so in the Haskell. To the EYE he did not appear as SUPER as he did in those other races. Howev er, when you analyze the race by the numbers it puts his Haskell up there with his other wins.

I am a fan of most all competitive sports and true sportsmen want to know who the best truly is. Let's hope that both camps will go that route and do what would be the best thing for our wobbly sport, get these two great talents together to see who is best on a particular day. To not do this is to shortchange racing fans everywhere and havent we been shortchanged already enough via the early retirement route that most star horses are put on these last few years of racing?

re: Mixed Feelings

Bradgm — Tue, 12 Aug 2008 19:41:50 GMT

Steve, not to single myself out but I wondered if you have any info on the surface at SA, maybe you haven't had time to respond to my comment. I may take a drive by there to check it out. I'm just worried like you are. I think that's what the article was about kinda, sorta, maybe?

re: Mixed Feelings

Kelly E. — Tue, 12 Aug 2008 19:15:25 GMT

Steve, I apologize for generalizing what you wrote about "owners" and how some view them as "children." You HAVE written similar pieces in the past on this subject and perhaps I was truly referencing the flavor of your opinion on this subject--as I interpret it.

Don't you think your comments herein about how Dutrow "feels strongly" and has "a passion for Big Brown" echo your statements about Jess Jackson and his fatherly "retaliatory" comments? It's all part and parcel of the same thing, in my opinion. You feel strongly about anything you truly care about. Thank God that we feel so strongly about this wonderful sport to spend the time here debating!

My final opinion on the matter...Dutrow should learn that being passionate about something (BB) does not give you free license to open your mouth at will to the detriment of others. Be an ambassador of the sport, Mr. D, not a liability.

Yes, there is free speech in this country and all that. However, being free of speech does not mean that we should be void of class. I smiled when I read Jess's comments about Dutrow the other day. I was NOT smiling when I read Dutrow's original comments about Curlin. I wonder why that is?

I will continue to kiss up to Mr. Haskin by thanking him for being the best thing to happen to this sport in a long time...with the sole exception of the fab horses we get to enjoy watching (and loving)!!!

re: Mixed Feelings

MikeM — Tue, 12 Aug 2008 19:14:09 GMT

Good point katinthehat. I also believe that the post for BB played into his strength given the quality of that field.When you have a choice between inside and outside posts in a race like the Derby, I would rather be outside than inside,especially with BB's running style.

re: Mixed Feelings

KatintheHat — Tue, 12 Aug 2008 18:35:22 GMT

Juat out of curiousity, I wonder if people think it would have made a difference in the order of finish if Curlin's and Big Brown's Kentucky Derbies were switched? What if Curlin had the "magic carpet ride" on the outside that BB had against that field of horses and what if Big Brown had broken from within the pack and had a troubled trip until given the opportunity to "break through" in the stretch against Street Sense, Hard Spun?

re: Mixed Feelings

Steve Haskin — Tue, 12 Aug 2008 18:24:27 GMT

From the looks of it, our moderators were not going to publish Deacon's post, but I let it be published just to say that I think everyone has made his or her point regarding Dutrow. Please, no more comments like the Deacon's (walking, talking PR nightmare). It's all been said already in one form or another. Thanks.

re: Mixed Feelings

Mike S — Tue, 12 Aug 2008 17:20:13 GMT

BIG BROWN may have "won every race he finished" but even if he had "finished" the Belmont Stakes he was going to be last.

re: Mixed Feelings

The Deacon — Tue, 12 Aug 2008 17:12:23 GMT

Great article Steve: Dutrow has got his mouth running again. Dutrow is a walking, talking PR nightmare. Please tell me why Big Brown skipped the Travers to run in the Haskell, to barely beat up on average competition. Maybe Dutrow is afraid Da'Tara would humble Big Brown once again. This years 3 year old crop (with due respect) could not hold a candle to last years. The Curlin camp is doing the right thing by the horse. They have taking some chances with Curlin and I applaud them for that. Running Curlin on turf was risky to his reputation, going all the way to Dubai was chancy as well. Dutrow takes the easy way out with Big Brown. I do not think Big Brown could beat Zenyatta or Ginger Punch right now......we will see.

re: Mixed Feelings

Monica V — Tue, 12 Aug 2008 16:43:20 GMT

Bradgm,

Hey, how are you? Haven't talked in a while. If I had a few million to spare, you could count me in! LOL! Best to you and will see you around.

re: Mixed Feelings

Monica V — Tue, 12 Aug 2008 16:40:29 GMT

Mike Revla,

No, I'm not quite as bad as Draynay but you are entitled to think that but I don't get nasty in my posts, I will bate him but we've been having this thing going for a while now and I really don't dislike him, in fact, I think we actually like each other in a odd sort of way.

I respect your love for BB. I have nothing against the horse but our viewpoints differ. That's all. I happen to think Curlin is better and you think BB is better. That's okay. I think BB is a terrific horse. He is absolutely the best 3 years old but I wonder about his soundness now. I wonder about a few things. Let's see how it plays out. In the meantine, I truly hope BB is healthy and gives his fans one or two more thrills. You never know what will happen but best to you!

re: Mixed Feelings

UCLinden — Tue, 12 Aug 2008 16:16:42 GMT

After reading the comments from ..... Indulto ....10 Aug ..... I thought I'd expand upon their comment ( but in a positive manner ) .... Here is what they posted .....

" Perhaps rather than allocate two successive days to a single venue, single days at two venues would be more appropriate." They were referring to the Breeders Cup.

I like that idea, here is an idea I came up with. The year is 2010 ..2 years down the road. Both The Triple Crown and Breeders Cup races will be changed , starting in the year 2011. Yes, I do know the history of the triple crown and its significance. BUT, there is absolutely nothing wrong with change , especially for the horses' welfare. Every sports venue somewhere along the road has made changes. Baseball used to have doubleheaders , not any more. Most professional sports have added new teams , new stadiums. We now have the Woman's NBA.

Here is my idea .... you don't have to agree with it , but its an idea to think about. Of course modifications can be made. The Kentucky Derby will continue to be the first Saturday in May. The Preakness and Belmont will be on the first Saturday's of June & July ..... each race will have 4 weeks in between. On the undercard of each Triple Crown race , will be a Breeder's Cup race, " Win and Your In ".

For The Breeder's Cup , the race's WILL BE held on two separate Saturday's in October ...... the first and third Saturday's. That will give any trainer / owner an opportunity to get to each track if they have more than one horse. You can have one Breeder's Cup day at a track from the midwest area to the western region, and the other Breeder's Cup from the midwest to the east coast. For example .... one Saturday at Santa Anita , the other Saturday at Belmont.

It might be an idea the racing fans would like. Just as The Triple Crown carries the excitement during the three races, The Breeder's Cup might do the same thing, if ran on two different Saturday's. Do you really think the racing FAN , had a REAL interest in the Friday / Saturday Breeder's Cup program held at Monmouth ? For one thing , we all know , the racing fan is usually working on a Friday. Wouldn't it be better if the newly enlarged racing program the Breeder's Cup started, was held on two Saturday's ? That would give more people an opportunity to look over the program , maybe more wager's would be made and we'd have a larger audience.

Now there's a case in point ...... The Breeder's Cup made a change ...from racing on one day to two ..... it can be done with The Triple Crown too ..... give the horse's more rest between races. Isn't that what we have been discussing all along ...... our feelings about various horses ???

re: Mixed Feelings

MikeM — Tue, 12 Aug 2008 15:06:59 GMT

Sandra,

Did you ever think what might have happened if BB got caught up in a speed dual with Zitos' horse(Coal Play?)If Zito's horse is a legit horse,then KD did the right thing.It would have been interesting to see who was more rubber legged at the finish.It's one thing to stalk a fast pace and quite another to go head to head in a speed dual with a high calaber horse.If he is one.