Where Should Big Brown Run next?

re: Where Should Big Brown Run next?

Wanda — Mon, 18 Aug 2008 14:17:47 GMT

I can hardly remember a classic 3 year old managed the way this one is.In my opinion it seems like their second guessing every move they make with this horse. He was on track thru the classics until the Belmont then the comeback running a gutsy race lugging out.I still think he's foot sore and they are buying time hoping they can get his feet half right for BC. They don't know where to run him but they know they have to run him somewhere in a soft spot so he has no chance of getting beat. It's august and some of these other 3 year olds are catching up. They could hook a bear next time out. We've all seen 3 year olds improve big time late in the summer so it could get interesting.

Hey MonicaV I took a road trip to see family and Larry(the old horse we raised).Did some fencing around the new barn they built and got a sunburn.

re: Where Should Big Brown Run next?

scholar — Mon, 18 Aug 2008 13:28:00 GMT

I think BB will run next in the Goodwood...it's a good race for the following reasons: The race is being run on synthetic..if he loses, they can blow off the BC Classic and issue a challenge to Curlin to meet him in the Clark Handicap, and few people will remember the Goodwood synthetic debacle if he redeems himself in the Clark...or they will simply chose to retire him, citing his poor feet. If he wins the Goodwood, they are emboldened to run in the Classic, or (again) retire him, citing poor feet (and never having to meet the very best of the crop that is avoiding the BC Classic). I agree with many of the bloggers, that a $50 million stud deal is looming large in every decision that they make...this is not about the sport, this is about protecting a valuable investment..for better or for worse, of course. But I wouldn't be too hard on BB's connections...no one can go into this without a degree of pragmatism, even Curlin's connections thought twice about continuing with an Arc de Triomphe campaign, when it looked like the horse was very vulnerable on turf...there is a limit to everyone's risk-taking....$50 million can hold a lot of people back! And, I think there is still a big chance that this horse will never race again....got a feeling that his feet are not doing well, and he can retire right now on a winning note. He's still the Derby winner. That trumps anything else that he does, short of winning the BC Classic, or beating Curlin somewhere. If that's not in the cards, then retirement is the best move.

re: Where Should Big Brown Run next?

draynot — Mon, 18 Aug 2008 12:01:29 GMT

The Breeders Cup as a whole keeps getting more watered down almost everyday it seems. How many over the past weekend made it known they will not be going to the Cup and racing over the fake crap? The list just keeps getting bigger and bigger. What a collosal blunder they made giving the Cup to SA two years in a row knowing they would be running over this crap.

I'm hoping in the future that they all wake up and go back to dirt. Maybe use the fake stuff to train over but it is clear what a mistake it has been to give the Breeders Cup to anyone without conventional dirt. This years edition should have no bearing on HOY or Divisional Champs outside of the Turf Division. The best aren't even going to show up, they have found races elsewhere.

re: Where Should Big Brown Run next?

MonicaV — Mon, 18 Aug 2008 05:05:47 GMT

Hey Wanda,

Glad to see you around and I totally agree with you!

re: Where Should Big Brown Run next?

JordanA — Mon, 18 Aug 2008 04:25:55 GMT

Wanda, It won't help. It'll be the why's where's, what if's, how comes win or lose. It will last until the new crop of 3 year olds start running and even then who knows.

re: Where Should Big Brown Run next?

BIGHORSEFAN — Mon, 18 Aug 2008 04:15:19 GMT

Vincent, yes horse racing is suffering, but have you looked in the stands at a MLB game lately? College basketball teams that once filled their gyms, can't do it anymore either. Whereas I agree with most of what you said I'm surprised they passed the edit, didn't figure we'd go down the dusty Dutrow road again.

Wanda, Hallelujah! Hallelujah! etc,

re: Where Should Big Brown Run next?

Wanda — Mon, 18 Aug 2008 00:05:37 GMT

I hate to say this but I'm getting tired of all the what ifs and whens with this horse. Just find a spot and run him so he's ready for BC and no excuses that he's been off to long or it was really hot or they boxed him in or.....

re: Where Should Big Brown Run next?

Vincent — Sun, 17 Aug 2008 23:30:25 GMT

I think most of you are missing that unfortunately horse racing is simply not the same game it used to be. Those examples from the past are true, but now it is mainly a breeding game in an industry that is spiraling downward. Thoroughbred horse racing has had many opportunities to lift itself back into the spotlight but usually due to lack of uniformity it shoots itself in the foot from account wagering to blackedout signals on some of racing's biggest days and now horses not running in the Breeders' Cup because half of the industry decided to change the surface. Try explaining to an audience that only shows up a few times a year the horses they remember from the previous year aren't running because horses don't run more than a year (Street Sense or soon-to-be Big Brown), but one of the few that does, Curlin, isn't running because of a new surface. Not the way to market a sport. As for Big Brown and his connections, they are trying to save face and live up to a $50 million breeding deal. The best way to do that is to run an easy race on the grass against no one and take a shot in the BC Classic. Win or lose, their okay because they will blame it on the poly-track if he loses. If he wins, great because years from now they will remember him as a BC Classic winner and not that he didn't run against Curlin. The fact remains he defeated a below average three-year-old crop in the first two legs, did whatever in the Belmont and then was life and death against one of the worst fields Haskell fields in decades. Thank god it wasn't my $50 million they spent. You bring up horses from the past and its a shame that people want to put Big Brown in the same breath as Curlin, Holy Bull, Cigar, Easy Goer and many others. But like a said in the beginning, horse racing used to be different. It has always been about making money, but owners and trainers of the past took pride in the races they ran in, their horses and were honored to win such races. Look at it now, you still have great trainers and owners but the pride for horse racing for many them isn't there. Their too interested in using and disgracing the sport to line their pockets. I mean Dutrow and co., besides degrading other trainers (John Servis and Smarty Jones) and horses (Curlin), even demeaned the sport by saying he thought the Kentucky Derby was as easy as winning any other race and he didn't think it was tough to win. He demeaned the very race that catapulted him to a $50 million deal. Nice. You can argue and think Big Brown is great (now most of you are making excuses because of his feet -- I guess the champions of the past never had problems to overcome...LOL) and everyone has an opinion, but please do not compare him to the champions of the past he couldn't even carry their feedbag.

re: Where Should Big Brown Run next?

joe — Sun, 17 Aug 2008 19:29:33 GMT

I first visited Three Chimneys in 1996 and they had champions Seattle Slew, his sons Slew O' Gold and Capote, and the first BC Classic winner Wild Again in one barn. My second visit, in 1999, Silver Charm had just arrived. I believe Big Brown's feet are keeping him off of the dirt, and the owners would never again run on Belmont's(aka Big Sandy) dirt anyway.

re: Where Should Big Brown Run next?

Bradgm — Sun, 17 Aug 2008 17:31:44 GMT

Steve, like we said, you've been swimming with the sharks on these blogs, correct there is no sand. Good thing the BC isn't at Del Mar for your sake, right on the ocean pretty much.

I can't help but think Three Chimney's is a little nervous, the sales seem in a bit of trouble. Who knows what the BB deal behind the deal really is.

re: Where Should Big Brown Run next?

MonicaV — Sun, 17 Aug 2008 16:35:37 GMT

Three Chimneys is a wonderful farm. I've been there a couple of times, even got to see Slew breed a mare from Aregentina in 1988. They have some awesome stallions there.

re: Where Should Big Brown Run next?

Huh — Sun, 17 Aug 2008 12:55:28 GMT

Secretation:

Three Chimneys has had horses like Seattle Slew, Smarty Jones and Silver Charm stand there so Big Brown would not be their first big horse.

re: Where Should Big Brown Run next?

dr marv — Sun, 17 Aug 2008 08:03:50 GMT

Easy Goer Fan,

Yup, 12 f to 10 f off 3 weeks. I think the article you read was in Sports Illustrated, I read the same one. Nice to know there are others out there who follow this as closely as we do! It's been 19 yrs but we still remember the finest details!

Also amazing were(and underrated)was Giants Causeway and Sakhee, who both came super close to winning the BCC coming off 12f races- on the turf to boot!

The thing with the surface is that was just placed - no one knows how it will play. Also, Jesse Jackson might go for the Japan Cup Dirt in December, and the BCC would give Curlin too little time.

re: Where Should Big Brown Run next?

MonicaV — Sun, 17 Aug 2008 05:44:30 GMT

I'm sure Big Brown will have plenty of mares booked to him. He's the hottest stallion prospect.

His only shortcoming is his feet and hopefully he will get mares that will counter that trait. It's really too bad about his feet. Boundary had the same problems.

re: Where Should Big Brown Run next?

russell maiers — Sun, 17 Aug 2008 03:00:15 GMT

He should run over the surface he will run in the Classic. He has to win or run very good in the classic or world cup before he can expect Curlin to notice. Hes done very, very good. Until he runs really good or wins one of the big 2 against older horses hes a great three year old who raced three year olds. I would have him give up the eighth mile for practice on the surface.

re: Where Should Big Brown Run next?

Girl Power — Sun, 17 Aug 2008 01:28:51 GMT

For what it's worth, here's my opinion. Big Brown's objective is to win the BC Classic over the synthetic surface. Speed is emphasized on dirt, whereas STAMINA is emphasized on synthetic. As everyone knows, his training regimen has been disrupted due to his propensity for quarter cracks. If they are indeed going to risk this horse, a horse which many, many experts believe has real physical problems, then they must build up his stamina. He needs to come to California NOW and train during the next 2.5 months over the Hollywood Park synthetic/turf tracks. Forget about the Del Mar track, they changed the maintenance schedule and now horses are dying. If all goes well, and the quarter cracks do not rear their ugly heads, then he can showcase his turf skills in the Clement Hirsch Turf and god willing show us that late kick to trounce the field, which we all became accustomed to earlier in the year. This in turn would be followed by a glorious victory in the BC Classic..... culminating in Horse Of the Year honors. (I can dream can't I?)

re: Where Should Big Brown Run next?

Tiznowbaby — Sat, 16 Aug 2008 22:06:51 GMT

I'm curious to see how that stud deal works out for TC. How much are they going to charge? The colt has won impressively, but he's not a son of Storm Cat or A.P. Indy, so what kind of fee are they going to hang on him? Tiznow won 2 BC Classics, and how many years did he go for $30,000? Can you make your $50 million back at that fee? It will be interesting to watch the next five years play out.

re: Where Should Big Brown Run next?

Steve Haskin — Sat, 16 Aug 2008 21:20:20 GMT

Three Chimneys a new face in breeding? Maybe 25 years ago. So, do you really think Three Chimneys is going to have egg on their face for buying the breeding rights to a Kentucky Derby, Preakness, Florida Derby, and Haskell winner who ran the fastest Thoro-Graph number in the history of the Kentucky Derby? I'll take that kind of egg on my face any day.

re: Where Should Big Brown Run next?

Secretation — Sat, 16 Aug 2008 20:53:30 GMT

Steve, It's not what lurks at the bottom of the Pacific, it's what comes up to the surface that will get you.

As for Big Brown, he reminds me of a protected heavyweight boxer whose manager does everything he can to get him a title shot while taking little to no risk. Curlin's connections are trying to stretch him as much as they can to prove his greatness, while BB's connections are trying to make sure this deal with Three Chimneys works out well. Let's not kid ourselves, if BB doesn't bring in the dough in the shed, TC will be hesitant to shell out for another IEAH horse. On the other hand, if they can get him some full books for the next few years, they may be willing to bring in other big name IEAH prospects. Whether we like it or not, Iavarone is finding some really good horses and having a good relationship with a farm like Three Chimneys couldn't be a bad thing for him.

By the way, I'm not knocking either Three Chimneys or IEAH. I'm just an outsider who sees them as sort of the new face of racing/breeding and this Big Brown deal is either going to bring them up another notch or leave them with egg on their faces.

I don't know about the horses, but Jess Jackson should get some kind of award for what he's done this year.

re: Where Should Big Brown Run next?

Steve Haskin — Sat, 16 Aug 2008 20:02:22 GMT

Brad, with comments like that you don't sound bad to me. As for your question, the pace in California turf races over that firm course usually is much faster than in the turf races back east. And Big Brown shouldnt be sitting behind a slow pace even if there was one. He should assure an honest pace, thus getting some bottom and fitness out of it and not just running the last quarter mile.

And I'll pass on the owner, trainer, and jockey...and especially the surfing, Bradgm. I'm not a beach person; never liked the feel of sand on my feet. Anyway, I'm an Atlantic Ocean guy. I don't know what denizens of the deep lurk at the bottom of the Pacific Ocean.

re: Where Should Big Brown Run next?

Bradgm — Sat, 16 Aug 2008 18:54:34 GMT

Different Brad but similar ideas. The configuration of the SA turf track??

Never met Steve, have his books, maybe at the BC if he comes.

The total human connection to BB, there's a plan. Of course he's already had an offer to be taught surfing, add to that, trainer, jockey owner and author he's going to be too busy to do much of anything else.

re: Where Should Big Brown Run next?

Bad Brad — Sat, 16 Aug 2008 17:53:26 GMT

Hi Steve,

I agree with your ideas but am curious about the distance of 1 1/4 in the Hirsch on the turf and BC Classic on the main track which will be synthetic. Since turf races are usually run differently than main track ( dirt and synthetic ) in that the horses go at a much slower pace early on then basically sprint from the top of the strech to the finish would BB gain the same stamina effect than the shorter distance Goodwood or any other race shorter than 1 1/4 on a main track ?

To all of Steve's fans : If you get a chance to meet him.... DO IT!!! I have visited with him several times in person and he is just as pleasant in person as he is the internet .... one class act !

Having said that , in order to eliminate the Big Brown drama on and off the track..... Mr. Steve Haskin, you have just been named owner , trainer AND jockey of Big Brown !!!

re: Where Should Big Brown Run next?

BIGHORSEFAN — Sat, 16 Aug 2008 17:26:02 GMT

Does the synthetic surface help or hurt a horse with bad feet? Turf may but there's been lots of questions about the fibers packing into the hoof. The assertion that the horse has bad feet but we won't find out how bad until he retires, well anyone can say whatever they want at that point and there's no way to dispute it. It'll just cause more controversy about why they ran the colt on such bad feet. Also, Cigars documented bad feet didn't stop him from setting records. The colt was probably run on turf for a reason by Reynolds, the trainer who put the bottom on him. If he goes in the Hirsch and wins that may help his breeding profile go back up(that industry is feeling the pinch)if he goes onto the synthetic and loses,with his 'bad' feet, inability to run on synthetic his potential tag of sire of horses of the future as we've discussed, would be in serious jeopardy. It's fun to speculate but bottom line it's a crap shoot all the way around.

re: Where Should Big Brown Run next?

The Deacon — Sat, 16 Aug 2008 16:27:53 GMT

How about a 4 horse match race between Curlin, Big Brown, Zenyatta, and Benny the Bull. Run the race at Churchill Downs and the distance would be 1 1/16 so Benny the Bull would have a legitimate chance. This would settle this speculation once and for all. Televise it on national TV and this would also get the fans excited again.

re: Where Should Big Brown Run next?

MonicaV — Sat, 16 Aug 2008 15:52:29 GMT

I just have a feeling thar Big Brown won't make it to the classic.

I really think his feet are worse than his connections are saying. They challenge Curlin to go to the BC to race there when they could race against him before the BC. I don't think his feet are up to the stress of dirt, maybe they are hoping the new surface at SA will be kind to his feet. Also, many people have bashed KD for holding BB back at the start of the Haskell when I think it was done purposely to put the least amount of stress on those hoofs. A quick start requires a lot of pounding on those hoofs. Also, the workout on grass before the Haskell was telling. They don't want to run against Curlin on dirt. In my opinion, it's his feet.