Ky. Derby Trail: Cho, Mo, and Go Show

re: Ky. Derby Trail: Cho, Mo, and Go Show

Coldfacts — Mon, 21 Mar 2011 13:05:52 GMT

Steve,

"There is one regular on here who is very arrogant and claims to know everything about the sport, and while I let him speak his mind I wont respond to him"

I hope I am not that individual as I have been already labeled as an agent of misinformation. I have serious doubts I am the individual but you never know worst has been postrd about me..

I always try to provide some rational for classifying particular horses as derby pretenders. The historic failures and dismal records of sire and broodmare lines is one of the parmaters. Others are speed figures, DOB and galloping action other additional historic date.

I am in total agreement that posters should provide some rational for their dislike of a particular horse chances. I hardly believe poster dislike these majestic animals. They just do not post the fact that they dislike their chances.

re: Ky. Derby Trail: Cho, Mo, and Go Show

Zookeeper — Mon, 21 Mar 2011 00:03:23 GMT

John T,

The story gets better and better. These little tidbits of history fascinate me. Thank you for sharing this.

re: Ky. Derby Trail: Cho, Mo, and Go Show

John T — Sun, 20 Mar 2011 22:57:38 GMT

Thank-you Zookeeper,just one slight correction Jenny Jerome,s

father was called Leonard [Lenny]

rather than Harry.He was a successful stockbroker,financier,

and newspaper proprietor.

Sir Winston Churchill owned some racehorses himself the best being

Vienna who would go on to be the sire of the 1968 Arc winner Vaguely

Noble who in turn was the sire of that great racemare Danlia.

re: Ky. Derby Trail: Cho, Mo, and Go Show

Zookeeper — Sun, 20 Mar 2011 21:07:06 GMT

Fiction & facts from John T's Almanach... I loved it!!!

re: Ky. Derby Trail: Cho, Mo, and Go Show

John T — Sat, 19 Mar 2011 21:26:12 GMT

Jean In Chicago

That,s ok,we are all entitled to

our own opinions and I always do the best I can in respecting the other persons opinion.

If you like historical facts about horse racing you should like this one.

In the 19th century there was a track in New York called Jerome Park.It was named after Harry Jerome.He was a very interesting

character and once drove a team of horses down a street in New York in a druken stupor.Like Noel Murless he also had a daughter her

name was Jenny Jerome and she would

move to London England.She married

Lord Randolph Churchill and she would go on to become the Mother of that great war-time leader Sir Winston Churchill.

re: Ky. Derby Trail: Cho, Mo, and Go Show

Slew — Sat, 19 Mar 2011 14:23:22 GMT

Jean in Chicago...It may have been Billy turner, who said of Seattle Slew, "You could ask him to do anything, but you couldn't TELL him to do anything." It's that type of spirit I enjoy seeing in a horse. There's a freakish independence that comes with the most intelligent horses...Consider Kelso and John Henry. What I find amazing is an independent, intelligent champion like Zen, who is also gentle and so sensitive to others. As far as the Derby goes, I think Uncle Mo may be able to outrun his sire's pedigree; he seems to be pushing toward that goal. (he does have Arch as a dam sire). However, 12f may just lie beyond his abilities. Premier Pegasus looked mighty fine; I want to see him do it again. I'm hoping THAS picks up; he seemed to tire too quickly last out. A lot of the contenders just seem too short on actually contending. Too few races, too little experience, too much protection, too few lessons learned. Today in the Rebel, I think the top 3 in the SW are going to offer a royal battle to The Factor. I also like Alternation, but I'm not certain he's ready for this top flight group. He's won 2 allowance races this year, but he needs more time to work up his speed.

re: Ky. Derby Trail: Cho, Mo, and Go Show

Mike from Michigan — Sat, 19 Mar 2011 10:30:51 GMT

watch for a horse called Behold De Buy. He might run in the Sunland, could be a dark-horse for the Derby if he wins the Sunland.

re: Ky. Derby Trail: Cho, Mo, and Go Show

hastyroad — Fri, 18 Mar 2011 22:18:05 GMT

All comments that I read about Uncle Mo, refer to two (2) prep races leading up to the Derby. If he runs in the Wood, and it looks like he will, it will actually be two workouts before the derby. His competion will be no better in the Wood than it was in his last race, which was nothing more than a workout. For me to question Todd Pleture would be rediculous, but if he pulls this off, he essentialy brought Uncle Mo up to the derby with nothing more than 2 workouts. For me, this would be the greatest training feat in the history of the derby. One mile and a quarter, 20 horses, on two workouts. I will believe it when I see it.

re: Ky. Derby Trail: Cho, Mo, and Go Show

Jean in Chicago — Fri, 18 Mar 2011 21:37:49 GMT

John T:

I don't know, but I think maybe the opposite might be true. Knowing there is a lot more personality to a horse than being a wind-up action figure who might win you a few dollar might well attract more people.

Look at Zenyatta. The dancing, taste for Guinness and the fact she came out of the gate dead last, as though saying 'oh, you guys finally decided its time to run, I guess I'll get started now' and then blowing past the others probably attracted more new fans than 'just' her number of wins.

Sure, the existence of Facebook and YouTube probably played a part, but I'll bet you her personality quirks played a much larger one.

Thats why I like Steve's 'remembering' columns on great horses so much. I learn 'personal' things about them I otherwise would never know because I don't have access to their trainers, grooms or riders, much less to them.

And thank you for the info on Frankel's historic connections. This is exactly the stuff I love...a pathway from Nasrullah to Frankel! Good luck to him and his people.

re: Ky. Derby Trail: Cho, Mo, and Go Show

John T — Fri, 18 Mar 2011 01:05:47 GMT

To those who responded regarding

Nasrullah,thank-you I totally understand what you are saying but there are a lot of younger bloggers

and mentioning Nasrullah as a horse with all kinds of quirks does

not help them learn the tremendous

contribution he made to thoroughbred racing as a sire,hence the reasoning behind why I wrote the blog.

Pedigree Ann,you mentioned J.O Tobin who was by yet another successful son of Nasrullah,Never Bend.Before embarking on a career

to the U.S.A he was trained in England by one of the great trainers of the British turf Noel

Murless at Warren Place in Newmarket.Murless had a daughter called Julie and she married a man called Henry Cecil and under the tutelage of Noel Murless he became

a great trainer in his own right.Upon the death of Murless he inherited Warren Place.There have

been many classic winners trained at Warren Place over the years and

as this is St.Patricks Day there was even won called St.Paddy who won the Epsom Derby and St.Leger in 1960.The next classic winner to be trained at Warren Place I am hoping will be Frankel when he takes his place in the 2000 Guineas.

re: Ky. Derby Trail: Cho, Mo, and Go Show

GoldenBroom — Thu, 17 Mar 2011 17:22:55 GMT

Papillon: you make an excellent point. But then you have to consider Curlin too, who ran in the Derby off of just 3 starts(?) No, he didn't win the Derby but he sure turned out to be sound over the 2 yrs he ran. I just hope Mr. Pletcher is doing a good job training and assessing Mo's conditioning.

Your analysis of racing unfit youngsters is dead on in my opinion which is why I gave so much credit to John Sheriffs decision to hold off running Zenyatta til she was almost 4 I believe? I think we may have a self compounding problem that there has not been a Triple Crown winner in so long that owners and trainers will try any approach at this point. I do think there is a correlation to the BCJ and only one Derby winner since it's inception (Street Sense I believe?) so I do think the "old days" when they'd campaign hard, rest, grow, then campaign hard again gives you a hardier constitution and horse. Being at the top of your game in early November then back to racing hard in March is tough on a youngster. I hated to see Asmussen take a beating for giving Rachel time off. These animals can't tell you if they have any minor ache or pain so some sort of significant down time of a few months seems warranted to extend a career.

Also there are many young horses that aren't broken til 2 then end up racing 60 - 90 days later. That's just ridiculous to me. The cheap stables I saw at the track when I worked there - we'd swear half the stall walkers were horses who's minds were "blown away" by the racing experience after having a saddle thrown on them after being in a pasture with momma for 2 yrs. Of course most stakes horses are treated much better...so it seems.

I still can't help but root for Mo though. Just hoping Mr. Pletcher or Repole emphasis all the off track / non-race work it takes to get a horse ready and explain why he didn't run earlier as a 2 yr old?

re: Ky. Derby Trail: Cho, Mo, and Go Show

Footlick — Thu, 17 Mar 2011 17:04:32 GMT

Jean in Chicago- thanks! I will try to find it.

re: Ky. Derby Trail: Cho, Mo, and Go Show

Jean in Chicago — Thu, 17 Mar 2011 15:54:23 GMT

Footlick:

There is a wonderful Sports Illustrated article from Dec. 1956 about Ribot and his breeder Federico Tesio titled "the Search for The Superhorse". It has delightful details about the man and the horse in Italy.

re: Ky. Derby Trail: Cho, Mo, and Go Show

Jean in Chicago — Thu, 17 Mar 2011 15:19:37 GMT

John T:

It's not meant as an insult to say a horse is ill tempered, it just means he can make life very difficult for his handlers. Grooms have killed by dangerous horses.

It was strongly suggested to Eclipse's owner that he (the horse, not the owner) be gelded because he was so hard to work with. Thank the Racing Gods that this didn't happen! But it may explain why he didn't race until he was 5yr.

Hastings was famous for actually being dangerous and passed this along to Fair Play who was no angel himself and neither were his sons and their sons. Display fought like crazy at the gate and would slow down if urged faster and only speed up if he was being pulled back (try explaining this to the stewards and fans), Man O'War was extremely hard to break to saddle, HardTack could barely be put on a track and his owner had a terrible time trying to convince owners to breed to him.

War Admiral started a lot of races from the far outside (outside of the gate) and Seabiscuit acted up until he met up with the right trainer. Maybe all of these horses just needed somebody to figure out that they wanted to be asked, not forced.

But none of these personality traits diminish in any way the hugh effects they had on Thoroughbred bloodlines. And for all we know, there may be some correlation with personality and racing prowess. The same spirit that says no human is going to tell me what to do may be what tells them that no horse is going to outrun me.

re: Ky. Derby Trail: Cho, Mo, and Go Show

Footlick — Thu, 17 Mar 2011 14:28:40 GMT

Pedigree Ann-Another weird note on temperment. Ribot was famous for being mean and passing on his temperment to his offspring. But when some Italians came to visit him when he was standing here and they saw how he was acting they were surprised. When asked if he was mean when in Europe, they said no, what did you do to him. I've never been able to verify if this was accurate or not, as I had read it quite awhile ago, but I never did hear about his famous temper when he was racing in Europe. Do you know anything about his years in Europe before coming here?

re: Ky. Derby Trail: Cho, Mo, and Go Show

Footlick — Thu, 17 Mar 2011 14:24:05 GMT

Pedigree Ann- JO Tobin was sad for me. He was brought to this country because it was decided he had too much peed for the Euro classics. He had finished third to Blushing Groom in the Criterium. Here was a horse who's trainer and Bill Shoemaker got to finally relax when he ran in the Swaps, and then he is sold and given to a different trainer and jockey because his former trainer had cancer and was retiring. I don't think Mr Barrera, as good a trainer as he was, quite understood the horse. Maybe if they kept Shoe on him. But he became more of a head case as the year went on. Jeff Fell, after JO Tobin's last race in the Tom fool, told the press he just hung on to the horses mane and let him run. He had never been on a horse who was at full speed one stride out of the gate. It scared him and he thought the horse didn't want to be racing. When asked if he would ride him again, he emphatically said he would never get on that horses back again. Ever. This horse had so much potential. He could turf, dirt , sprint and route. But that is horse racing.

re: Ky. Derby Trail: Cho, Mo, and Go Show

JAJ — Thu, 17 Mar 2011 14:20:28 GMT

Pedigree Ann,

Your description of the Nasrullahs reminds me of the present-day Tapits.

re: Ky. Derby Trail: Cho, Mo, and Go Show

Footlick — Thu, 17 Mar 2011 14:14:05 GMT

John T- Pedigree Ann is right. Read what is written about Nasrullah and you will realize that. It has nothing to do with how he looked. Or his brilliant genetic contribution to the breed.

re: Ky. Derby Trail: Cho, Mo, and Go Show

zarvona — Thu, 17 Mar 2011 13:32:34 GMT

Clearly a worthy sleeping giant just awaiing to peak around May the 7th, M.K. Cho's other charge, "Riveting Reason".

Riveting Reason: (Kty.); Tr. M. K. Cho;

Mar. 16th foal; $25K ’09 Keenlander;

9 1 3 3 ; D.I. 3.86 ;

Tomlinson Distance rating 000 ; Haskin’s # nl- ;

Pool #1 Field 2-1; Pool #2 Field 5-1; Pool #3;

[[triple bred to Nearco (Ity.) & dbl. bred to Nasrullah &

Hail to Reason & … w/multi ancestral crosses to

Teddy (Fr.) ; Hyperion (G.B.) ; Gainsborough (G.B.);

Ribot (Ity.) & Man O’ War ;

as a runner in Breeder’s Cup Juv. 00 the $$;

3rd Cash Cal Fur. Gr. I 1 1/16 1:44.72 + 5;

2nd 1 Mi. 1:35.05; + ½;

2nd Gr. II Robert B. Lewis 1 1/8 1:48.68 + a nose;

re: Ky. Derby Trail: Cho, Mo, and Go Show

Zenyatta John — Thu, 17 Mar 2011 11:34:07 GMT

Running through the wire - not just in the mornings.

It also happens in Derby prep season where horse keep running through the wire to the clubhouse turn because the run is silly races like the Timely Writer and they know their horse will get nothing out of the race , so they don't start pulling them up till well into the clubhouse turn. To me , that's not galloping out, it's running full speed another furlong. OK, some consider it a strong gallop out, but if they haven't stopped running full speed past the wire, how can they be "galloping out"?

JAJ -

I've seen many workouts live and in person at Oklahoma Training track - so I understand morning workouts and what happens.

re: Ky. Derby Trail: Cho, Mo, and Go Show

Pedigree Ann — Thu, 17 Mar 2011 08:51:44 GMT

John T,

Nasrullah may have been a beautiful specimen, but his difficult temperament was well known at the time. And I quote: "Besides being temperamental, Nasrullah was also known for being lazy and sometimes unpredictable, and trainers had a hard job motivating the horse during morning works." I recall a caption under a photo of his only major win at 3, the Champion S, which read "Nasrullah deigns to act the gentleman..." Quirky describes his mental state aptly.

In US training conditions, his offspring could be, as I said, high strung and speed-crazy. J. O. Tobin, a son of Nasrullah's son Never Bend, was typical: champion 2yo in Britain, he was undeniably talented - he was the horse who handed Seattle Slew his first defeat - but his nerves kept him from repeating that form with consistency.

I was told a story by a former Claiborne stud groom about leading Bold Ruler into his barn as a noisy thunder storm approached. Bold Ruler did it mostly on his two hind legs. High-strung critters. Good runners, but sometimes their own worst enemy.

re: Ky. Derby Trail: Cho, Mo, and Go Show

Justine — Thu, 17 Mar 2011 06:51:48 GMT

GoldenBroom, I apologize for the manner in which I responded to your comment. Perhaps it was the way you phrased things that set me off, but now I understand where you're coming from so thank you for the clarification.

Every sport will have its haters but I don't see the hate here, just over-the-top opinions that are rubbing other people the wrong way. But that's to be expected of any sport and people who can't handle that really don't have a place here. Those who are truly intrigued will stay on and weather the perceived hate for the glorious things and those with marginal interest will continue to watch from the sidelines.

re: Ky. Derby Trail: Cho, Mo, and Go Show

papillon — Thu, 17 Mar 2011 04:16:43 GMT

i haven't read anything above by those who question mo, that could be termed "hating" (and certainly nothing even close to the degree of vitriol that zenyatta received over the years).

raw talent is nothing against anyone (or any horse) who has been working consistently on his fitness. even the biggest freak of nature can't just show up at a marathon having only run a 1500 a few months before.

as two year olds, all of the horses racing had similar fitness levels. it was their levels of physical maturity was the greatest difference between them and which was the most determinate factor in their races. but neither factor is the case now that they are 3.

based on his prep schedule, it is not unfair to question mo's fitness. nor is it unfair to say that one hopes he doesn't win off of such a regime--because the best way to ensure breakdowns in athletes of any species, is poor preparation. my personal opinion as to why thoroughbreds seem so much more fragile today than in the past is not that they are being bred for speed and thus lack stamina, or that they are given drugs now (after all, man o'war was the most famous hop head in america in his day--though it wasn't lasix, it was opium); their current fragility is due to their lack of fitness resulting from training schedules designed to prepare them for 50 yard dashes instead of marathons. these changes all coincide with the quarter horse trainers taking over the sport...i do not think this is a meaningless correlation. quarter horse racing and thoroughbred racing are horses of a different color, but you'd never know that by the way they are both prepared.

i have nothing personal against mo, how could anyone have anything personal against a horse? but i do hope he does not win the KY derby or any other triple crown race out of fear of the precedent it would set for training schedules in the future. perhaps he is special enough to overcome what i believe is an ill-considered prep schedule. but most horses will only be injured on such a regime.

regarding the timely writer, i was not impressed--even given how fast he finished--horses should be able to finish very fast after walking the the first 3/4 of the mile. those like me, who were equally unimpressed, do not do so because we hate mo, we're just leery that plate may be being pawned off on us as solid gold, and because he is being given a pass that other horses have not(zenyatta comes to mind). i don't think it is too untoward to say "i'll believe it when i see it."

finally, to compare mo to secretariat or man o'war is ridiculous. secretariat was regularly breezing miles in his works, not 4 furlongs 2 twice a month or so, and he was racing regularly through-out his run up to the triple crown. and man o'war was from an entirely different era, so far removed from our own that it is nonsensical to compare them (how many foals did he have to best...less than 2000? foals today have to best upwards of 35,000--man o'war was like the guys who raced in chariots of fire--guys who could smoke and drink champagne as they trained for the olympics because they were competing against a relative handful of other athletes--the exact scenario in which preparation becomes less important (but even so, as others mentioned above, man o'war still had a very tough 2 year old campaign--an order of magnitude tougher than mo's). i do not deny man o'war's greatness but it was a different world back then and the comparison to today is pointless.

ps: those who keep repeating the bold ruler comment need to keep in mind that disney crafted its script to pull at your heart strings, not to document history. besides, we all know that secretariat inherited that mighty heart of his from his dam, something royal, not from his sire, bold ruler. maybe just maybe his routing ability came from her, not BR? but of course i'm female so what do i know?

if the above makes me a hater, than so be it.

re: Ky. Derby Trail: Cho, Mo, and Go Show

John T — Thu, 17 Mar 2011 03:46:20 GMT

Pedigree Ann

I find it so sad that you and so many observers like you refuse to give Nasrullah the credit he deserves.You call him and I quote

a quirky animal who frustated all

connected with him when racing.Horses with the Nasrullah

temperament can be headstrong yet

touchy.You make no mention whatsoever of the beautifully balanced horse Nasrullah was.When

Secretariat opened up in the Belmont the way he did and won the triple crown the first word on my lips was Nasrullah because without

his influnce such a thing could not have been possible.Another son of Bold Ruler,Reviewer went on to be the sire of Ruffian.Need we go on about Nasrullah.''Not Bad For A

Quirky Animal''

re: Ky. Derby Trail: Cho, Mo, and Go Show

Matthew W — Thu, 17 Mar 2011 03:44:55 GMT

Steve glad you noticed Comma To The Top's run---if they take it easy with him (he's "in" on graded earnings) they could get a piece at a huge price--but Mr Cho has a good pair--I loved PrePeg's stretch run--sure, it was a pace collapse--but he and he alone made the move--make no mistake, PrePeg is #1 out here, by a long way--maybe Jaycito makes another improvement--he'll have to--methinks Mr Cho is on the second choice in Kentucky....