Floored by Frankel

re: Floored by Frankel

Cassandra.Says — Sun, 30 Oct 2011 06:03:16 GMT

Why "put" Frankel on the lead?

Frankel wants to be there. The horse is not a robot.

Some horse can be persuaded that "zoom past the other horses" is a fun game, but some come out of their herd days as yearlings with an intractable belief that the best game is "eat my dust." Or sometimes they are taught it by their dams.

If they won't relax behind other horses, they might as well expend their energy building a lead as quarreling with their rider. It's dicey interfering with horses' ideas of how to display dominance. You might teach them that the whole idea is wrong, not just the style that comes naturally to them.

re: Floored by Frankel

Vince — Fri, 21 Oct 2011 05:50:41 GMT

let's just agree to differ on hawk wing footlick. nobody can have any definitive opinion on horse racing, that's what makes it so interesting. all the best.

re: Floored by Frankel

Footlick — Thu, 20 Oct 2011 21:58:32 GMT

"He was kept in training at four years old, when he produced one of the outstanding performances over a mile of recent times. A field of six ran in the 2003 Group One Lockinge Stakes at Newbury, including: Where Or When, who had beaten Hawk Wing in the Queen Elizabeth II Stakes; Olden Times, winner of the Group One Prix Jean Prat; Domedriver, who had inflicted Rock Of Gibraltar's first defeat in eight Group One races in the Breeders' Cup Mile; Reel Buddy (priced at 50-1 despite having been placed in the Group One Sussex Stakes - an indication of the quality of the field); and Celebration Mile winner Tillerman. Hawk Wing was simply awesome, beating a Group One field by 11 lengths, with second place Where Or When eight lengths clear of Olden Times in third."

re: Floored by Frankel

Footlick — Thu, 20 Oct 2011 21:55:36 GMT

All I pointed out was that Hawk Wing did a little more than you intimated. You can think what you want of the horse and of Timeform. And read about Hawk Wing's Lockinge. It was far from the weakest gr1 on the calendar. If you don't like the horse, fine. Just be objective.

re: Floored by Frankel

Dr Drunkinbum — Thu, 20 Oct 2011 18:37:04 GMT

The Deacon

Lucky you !!! You can't ask for more than that. I did get to see West and Baylor and crew play live but never got to meet any. I don't even think I have any active heroes in sports other than a lot of horses and a few jockeys. It's more about memories in that far off galaxy for most sports now.

re: Floored by Frankel

Vince — Thu, 20 Oct 2011 16:26:10 GMT

footlick, and hawk wing is rated higher than all those horses that beat him. why? because he trounced a field one time in ideal conditions. like I said, timeform are obsessed with cherry picking horse's form and taking even one wide-margin victory. he was devastating once, in the wekest G1 race of the celandar. no way he deserves that mark

re: Floored by Frankel

The Deacon — Thu, 20 Oct 2011 16:21:44 GMT

Dr D: Looks like you may have gotten set up by the liquor store. ha ha.

Jerry West was also my favorite player growing up, my youth was spent in sunny So Cal, I played high school basketball in the South Bay area. In the summer the Lakers with West, Leroy Ellis, Rudy LaRusso, among others would hold basketball camps. I got to meet my idol and play basketball alongside of him, even if it was for only a day or two. My dad was involved with racing, knew a few trainers so I spent a lot of summers at Santa Anita, Hollywood Park and Del Mar, fun times.

My dad would travel around and he would take me to many different tracks around the country, got to see so many of the great horses of yesteryear run. I was blessed with a good memory and I always wanted to own my own horses so I learned about bloodlines and such. Life took a different turn but I still follow my horse racing passion....for most of us, long ago in a galaxy far far away.......:)

re: Floored by Frankel

mz — Thu, 20 Oct 2011 14:02:26 GMT

Sorry to step in with a "now, now" comment ....but.... whoever implied that The Tetrarch wasn't such a big deal because in his time there weren't so many 2YO's needs to remember one BIG thing: almost 100 years later, we are STILL talking about him being thought of as great -- even if only at short distances. And then he has to go and sire Mumtaz Mahal and become an important peg in Nasrullah's pedigree and even, fergawdsakes, become THE link for keeping the colour gray in thoroughbred pedigrees today.

He is too still great ... so there!

Re: Dutrow: how come it took so long?

re: Floored by Frankel

Dr Drunkinbum — Thu, 20 Oct 2011 03:33:10 GMT

The Deacon

When I was in high school I decided one night to see if I could buy alcohol at a liquor store so I walked in, grabbed something like I knew what I was doing and they sold it to me. I was shocked but thrilled. Now I could buy beer for me and my friends on Friday night. So Friday night comes and I tell my friends that I was going to buy us some beer. Of course they didn't believe me. So I walk into the same store and the same clerk is there and I grab the beer and put it on the counter, and he says, "get the hell out of here, you're not 21. And don't ever try it again either." So I had to go back to my friends with my tail between my legs, and of course they were laughing and never believed that I had bought alcohol there before which was the worst part of it. What happened between the first time I bought there and the next time when I was banned forever it seemed. I know I never showed my face in there again anyway.

re: Floored by Frankel

Footlick — Thu, 20 Oct 2011 03:28:51 GMT

And we could put Hawk Wing in perspective. A seemingly in and out horse, when he ran his race was devastating. At two he won two of three. His loss was to Rock of Gibraltar. He won the National in an all ages record time as a two year old. At three he finished second to Rock of Gibratar while running on the side of the straight that the ground was not as fast as Rock of Gibraltar was on and finished second by a neck while closing furiously. He also finished second to High Chaparral in the Epsom Derby, both were 12 lengths clear of the rest of the field. He also won the Eclipse and finished second to Grandera in the Irish Champions. At four he annihilated a strong field of top milers in the Lockinge, where he achieved his top ranking. He was a little better than being called a horse with one large margin victory, intimating that is all the horse did in his career. He was not the most consistent, but he ran more than one race that was top class, imo, and should be credited for it.

re: Floored by Frankel

Footlick — Thu, 20 Oct 2011 02:55:54 GMT

Interesting the horse has been the top ranked Euro since his 2000 Guineas win and improved his weight ranking in the Sussex and then again in the QEII, and yet people act like he has beaten nothing. He has struck out front and laid just off the pace and laid back farther, and has always, with the exception of his off race in the St James, which he still won by the way, separated himself from the rest, which include Canford Cliffs, Excelebration, Immortal Verse, Dream Ahead, Strong Suit, etc. Think what you want, the horse is exceptional.

re: Floored by Frankel

Dr Drunkinbum — Thu, 20 Oct 2011 02:47:23 GMT

The Deacon

Thanks. I've been reading your excellent, informative and respectful posts. Nice blog, isn't it. Jery West has an autobiography coming out. In my top four favorite all time athletes. My heart broke with him many times in the 60's. My teams were the Lakers, 49ers, and Giants back then so it was a very tough decade.

re: Floored by Frankel

The Deacon — Thu, 20 Oct 2011 00:32:58 GMT

Dr D: Well said, my sentiments exactly. This looks like a witch hunt to me. I kind of liked Dutrow for the most part, he is kind of quirky but who isn't to some degree. Ten years is excessive, decisions like this is what drives fans away from the game. If the NY Racing Assoc is without sin then they can cast the first stone.......amen.

Vince.......excellent, totally agree.

re: Floored by Frankel

Vince — Wed, 19 Oct 2011 21:25:27 GMT

this blog is great. all the talk of the great european and world horses down the ages. some of the people's knowledge on here is incredible. frankel is nowhere near the greatest horses yet. I agree with some that he has to try 10 furlongs. he has so far proved himself better than this year's competition over a mile. one thing I will say about my opinion on frankel is that it is coloured by my prejudice against front runners. I always think in europe if you are on a horse that you know is so much better than all the rest, why blaze off in front. easy tiger, no need for all that.

as for the all time greats, it is difficult. is it based on the ease of victory or on the number of top victories against all comers? certainly, timeform have a lot of horses up there with just one wide-margin victory like hawk wing. I would defo put ribot in there, mill reef, sea the stars, dayjur, miesque, others of course. frankel not yet.

re: Floored by Frankel

Dr Drunkinbum — Wed, 19 Oct 2011 19:25:04 GMT

Just exactly how does that reincarnation stuff work anyway? Does anyone know? If you want to be a horse when you die, can you choose the horse? Can you choose the horse that's named after you and take over and will him to win everytime? As far as Dutrow is concerned, what I don't get is why the 63rd infraction is no big deal but the 64th is "64 strikes and you're out." When did they come up with that rule? My primary focus is that animals be treated right and with as little medication as possible but to me ten years seems excessive. Why not five years? Or three years? Does it take ten years to learn a lesson? Is it really fair to get ten years to send others a message? Why not warn others in writing and orally rather than making Dutrow be the message? As much as Dutrow has infuriated me in the past, he has also been a breath of fresh air at times and seems to be a decent guy who has had to deal with a lot in his life, and I think he could learn his leasson in two to five years much better than ten. With ten it seems they are saying, "find something else to do, we don't want you back." And that's Ok if it would have been done incrementally fair but all of a sudden to get ten years for something he got two months or less in the past isn't fair to me.

re: Floored by Frankel

LucyWG — Wed, 19 Oct 2011 17:25:53 GMT

My husband and I hold very different political views so, a few elections back, I kept telling him I was going to vote for Bobby Frankel as a write-in. Look at the skills the man had: a Brooklyn Jew training for a Sheik, dealing with people from all over the world with wildly different backgrounds and income levels, handling a training stable of horses worth who-knows-how-much. He was tough but he also knew how to be kind. He got things done. And, most impressive, he was magic with thorougbred fillies, the divas of the horse world! :-) If he can handle them, I am pretty sure he could deal with congress as well. :-)

I have been following Frankel (the horse) since the beginning and I do believe if Bobby Frankel is not in there, he is talking to the horse at night, serving as an extra trainer.

re: Floored by Frankel

Bill Two — Wed, 19 Oct 2011 12:43:08 GMT

That was a very moving documentary on ESPN last night re Charismatic and Chris Antley. I just wish that D Wayne had participated since we all would love to hear his side of it. I can understand how he felt let down by Chris as his demons took hold of him. Why Chris put him up on the lead only he could answer. Lots of unanswered questions. You did yourself proud with your appearance in the film. Good work.

re: Floored by Frankel

JerseyBoy — Wed, 19 Oct 2011 11:26:24 GMT

Steve:

You have done it again.

You have launched one of the best blogs ever. It is great to see people give their views of the best.

For me the best ever, anywhere, is one of the least mentioned these days. He is Vaguely Noble.

For those who wonder why I say this, just look at his ARC win and his Observer Gold Cup win. He crushed the field. The ARC runner-up was Epsom Derby winner Sir Ivor, the Horse of the Year and an all-time great himself. After the ARC, Sir Ivor won the DC International.

Vaguely Noble was an excellent sire. However, he was not a sire-of-sires. Too bad.

re: Floored by Frankel

The Deacon — Wed, 19 Oct 2011 05:33:53 GMT

Footlick, basically we are saying the same thing only in a different way. I consider Frankel a great miler. Until he proves himself at the classic distance he will not be in the same class as those mentioned. This is my criteria and I am ok with that. Your criteria may be different, and I am ok with that to. Every human being on the planet is entitled to an opinion.

I can only tell you that I have seen pretty much all of the great ones run since 1955 and Frankel is not anywhere on that list. Does he have great potential, of course, is he brilliant at a mile, again of course, does his name ring out sentimentality, yes, yes, yes.

Cecil can say and do what he wants, it's his horse and his perogative to do so. Regardless of reason, Frankel needs to win 1 or 2 of Europe's classic races to be considered in the conversation of Ribot, Sea Bird, Sea the Stars, Zarkava, Allez France, Dahlia and a few more.

re: Floored by Frankel

Paula Higgins — Wed, 19 Oct 2011 01:40:02 GMT

Bill Two and Deacon, we agree about Rick Dutrow. I also agree with you Bill Two that there are many different ways to determine the greatness of a horse.

re: Floored by Frankel

Needler in Virginia — Wed, 19 Oct 2011 01:33:16 GMT

Steve, with apologies, I can't let this one go unanswered:

Paula, do you really think 10 years is too much for anyone with 64+ various violations and an attitude that reeks arrogance? Does racing really need Dutrow as a representative right now (or EVER)? Will yet another slap on the wrist make him behave? The faster racing can shed itself of these trainers who violate rules with impunity and when they get caught say "doh, I NEVER knew about THAT" the faster racing can change the public perception of what is and what it is not. The time is fast approaching when another governing body will take the reins out of the hands of those who SHOULD be fixing racing, and I guarantee, we will all hate the results.

Again, I apologize, Steve. All I wanted to do was congratulate you on your appearance in ESPN's CHARISMATIC. You were, as always, adorable and lucid and eloquent and I saw the sadness in your eyes when you talked about Chris on the morning of the '99 Belmont. I just watched it and dammit, the same story broke my heart all over again.....talk about losing on an instant replay...AAARRRGGGHHH I really ought to know better by now, but when lightning in a bottle presents itself, you simply MUST watch it, and the way this lightning bolt ended really stinks........STILL!

Thanks, Steve, for the words; you are incomparable.

Cheers and safe trips.

re: Floored by Frankel

Footlick — Tue, 18 Oct 2011 23:55:08 GMT

The Deacon- I also believe that Ribot was the greatest thoroughbred ever. He never met a horse who could test him. But I do not base that on the distances he ran as much as how he won. You believe Frankel needed to be challenged distance-wise. Cecil has said more than once that the horse needed to mature and grow up mentally before he would consider stretching him out, which they are hoping to do next year. I'd rather see the horse not stretch out if he is not ready. But, we all have our criteria and that is why we all have opinions. That is what keeps the blogs going.

re: Floored by Frankel

Karen in Texas — Tue, 18 Oct 2011 23:53:16 GMT

Bill Two----Yes, totally agree with your 3:59 P.M. comment! What a (logical) concept! It needs to be applied to some of the nonsensical stuff on several other blogs as well.

re: Floored by Frankel

Footlick — Tue, 18 Oct 2011 23:46:30 GMT

Bill Two- I agree. One is not more valid than another.

JerseyBoy- The Tetrarch is still considered by many the greatest thoroughbred that ever stepped on a track. I should qualify that statement by saying European thoroughbred scholars.

re: Floored by Frankel

Jon — Tue, 18 Oct 2011 23:44:50 GMT

@JerseyBoy

you left out an important line of that article:

It is also noted that the 1913 crop of two-year-olds was less than spectacular.