Haskin's Derby Trail: The Fear of Losing

re: Haskin's Derby Trail: The Fear of Losing

LadyLucK — Sun, 18 Mar 2012 19:14:14 GMT

I have read all the posts, good points for the most part and all valid as "opinions" for "opinions" are just what they are when it comes to the decisions made for Take Charge Indy.

One post I have to reply to for I can't let the picture he paints of Chuck and Maribeth Sandford stand.

Furlongs (March 12, 11:50 post): You could not be more wrong about these owners. The fact is, Chuck has had a love for horse racing and been what you call a true race fan for 40 years. Do not discount his knowledge of the industry, disagree with him all you want, but it would be a mistake to "mark him down as someone who thinks because he is a Owner and has a little bit of money he must know more then others.

Hopefully your knowledge in horses is better than your judgement of people for you could not be more wrong when you make statements like: "as a true horse racing fan the last thing I want to hear is some Owner telling trainers where they want there horse to run. Look I know you want to run where the big horses are running so you can brag to your country club members, and make your wife happy cause she gets to go and buy a new dress"

Chuck and Maribeth Sandford are hard working, down to earth, good people that do not have country club members to brag to. Chuck does not make decisions based on Maribeth buying a new hat and dress. It is based on years and years of actively following the industry and attending weekly events and looking forward to their family vacations at the Kentucky Derby. I could go on and on but basically, you have no idea of how wrong your personal comments were.

re: Haskin's Derby Trail: The Fear of Losing

Convene — Sat, 17 Mar 2012 20:31:35 GMT

"Winning isn't the best thing; it's the only thing!" is mantra of growing significance in so many fields - and one I feel would be better forgotten. Sometimes, as you pointed out, losing accomplishes more important things than winning and (ask Carl Nafzger) sets the stage for the big win you're actually aiming for. I wonder how much of this idea is behind so many short fields, yet I've seen some winners who, "Didn't have a prayer in there!" Only one wins. The rest learn ...

re: Haskin's Derby Trail: The Fear of Losing

CHIEF PICAWINNA — Fri, 16 Mar 2012 18:01:43 GMT

Furlomgs I didnt know we had a moderator on this blog,and you misunderstood my post about having a Belmont winner over a Derby winner.If the horse is not ready for the Derby why run him just to have a Derby starter.Since you have used a mentioned a trainer in one of your posts,I will reciprocate,what do you think Charlie Whitingham would say about running a horse in the derby eventhough he does not belong,eventhough he got into the gate because he won the Tampa Bay Derby and the $210,000 of graded earnings.You can keep replying as much as you want eventhough you dont recall my screenname I having been making winning derby wagers since the tri was Sea Hero Prarie Bayou and Wild Gale I didnt look up the year.

re: Haskin's Derby Trail: The Fear of Losing

furlongs — Fri, 16 Mar 2012 11:00:22 GMT

Slew, he wanted to make a point of why TCI owners wanted and pointed to win the belmont vs the derby and then made a comment about well maybe for breeding reasons. All I know for every reason you can give such as AP Indy popular sire I can give you 10 such as Indian Charlie as popular sire) Bottom line is breeding popularity is focused on win early, win often and those races are no where near 1 1/2 distance... Most horses never race at a 1 1/2 ever once the Belmont is long over with... that is American racing.

re: Haskin's Derby Trail: The Fear of Losing

furlongs — Fri, 16 Mar 2012 10:50:05 GMT

Slew,

Yeah a Belmont winner from what 1992?? Not to mention the pre-derby program fav. as well as that years bc classic winner. I mean lets not forget AP Indy was considered special way before he won his belmont stakes. For the most part I would say when you look at who is popular in todays breeding sheld its not a horse that was able to win a 1 1/2 race the first weekend in June. That is my point when... so I dont want someone to act as if "well we wanted to win the Belmont over the Derby cause it does so much for the horse in the breeding shed business" I mean come on!!

re: Haskin's Derby Trail: The Fear of Losing

CHIEF PICAWINNA — Fri, 16 Mar 2012 05:44:08 GMT

Furlongs My point is that just because the colt was best on paper as in past performances, one cannot assume that the win was locked up,and that they were stupid for passing on the race.There is a lot more going on behind the scenes that the public including us uninformed bloggers will never know.We as horseplayers have our point of view from what we know,which is just a small part of what happens in the day to day life of equine athletes.

re: Haskin's Derby Trail: The Fear of Losing

furlongs — Fri, 16 Mar 2012 01:28:33 GMT

Chief, If you read my first post on this blog you will see that was my first assessment what was going on with the horse... Which is why I said to me he is a total throwout for the win no matter where he runs. So looks like I came to that conclusion way before you had to mention it on here. I see your finally catching on. There is always more to the story when you see a set of plans change when your on the Derby trail!

re: Haskin's Derby Trail: The Fear of Losing

Slew — Fri, 16 Mar 2012 00:32:40 GMT

Furlongs: Folks not interested in breeding with a Belmont winner? Just who has been the highest paid sire in the last 19 years? A Belmont winner who never ran in the Kentucky Derby...A P Indy.

re: Haskin's Derby Trail: The Fear of Losing

CHIEF PICAWINNA — Thu, 15 Mar 2012 21:55:54 GMT

Furlongs in the Tampa Derby he was the horse to beat on paper,I dont disagree with that but there might have been other issues with the colt where they wanted to give him more time that ONLY the ownership and the backstretch workers that work with Take Charge Indy knew about.IMO it was more about the colts well being than the fear of losing,but who knows for sure neither of us do,and the horse cant talk so Chuck only KNOWS so much himself.

re: Haskin's Derby Trail: The Fear of Losing

furlongs — Thu, 15 Mar 2012 17:26:03 GMT

Chief this is the last post I am going to have on this issue. It really isnt worth the argument to be honest. My point is and always has been the owners should own and let trainers train... As a fan/handicapper there is nothing more vital then knowing where a horse is suppose to run only to see his course being altered. Sometimes it works out for a horses owner/trainer but for the most part all it does it raise red flags to a gambler. Now that being said I would tell you this applies to the KY Derby trail more so then any other time because in most times the horse does not have a dead on target he/she must meet such as the first Saturday in May. This is why some trainers have always done better then others at winning and or getting into the Ky Derby. But when the goal is a race or races such as the Triple Crown there is only so much time to prepare them for the chance of a lifetime. The PP's tell me nothing more then what the horse has accomplished so far which in this case is a Maiden win on a synthetic track around one turn. PERIOD. Sometimes just because its yours makes you think you have something more special then you really do, and in this case so far this applies to Mr. Sanford. This horse has not shown in the afternoon racing he belongs in the FL Derby field. Simple as that. So what do you have when you run 3rd or 4th in a seven horse field and the others behind you are less accomplished then yourself? Where do you go from there? Doing what is best for the horse is putting him in field where he can complete for the win. Not putting him in where you can write a $15K check and fade to 4th to collect $100K... I now see where the Ill. Derby is another option still for Indy. Even though the FL Derby still remains as most likely the next race. Let hope if he does not run in the FL Derby, that Indy gets a good post and people don't think its a hard track to ship to cause at this rate we may never get to see TCI run again!! Good luck at the windows everyone.

re: Haskin's Derby Trail: The Fear of Losing

CHIEF PICAWINNA — Thu, 15 Mar 2012 12:30:02 GMT

Furlongs I dont know Chuck but I bet he knows his colt a lot more than what you see as past performances.I am sure he would love to win the Kentucky Derby,just like others who run in the Derby eventhough their colt dosent belong in the race,giving us a field of 20 every year now(which I like)What is a past performance it is what they have accomplished in the past,so you keep studying whats on paper and let the horseowners make their own decisions.

re: Haskin's Derby Trail: The Fear of Losing

furlongs — Thu, 15 Mar 2012 01:22:46 GMT

KY VET- Nice post wonder what that hip number will go for?? Well we know if Pletcher or Bafferts man is bidding it will sell for $540,000! Anyone else $23,800.

re: Haskin's Derby Trail: The Fear of Losing

furlongs — Thu, 15 Mar 2012 01:19:57 GMT

Hey CHIEF,

Yeah breeders today are dying to breed horses that can run 1 1/2 while stagging home in the Belmont Stakes. Maybe you should take a look at what people are breeding to now a days! NOTHING and I mean NOTHING compares to winning the Ky Derby. Now I am sure your Chuck's right hand man helping him out on these blogs since I never seen your name before this topic (what I would call a yes man), but the ONLY horse owner in the world that would even say they would rather win the Belmont over the Derby is an owner that has a horse that just won the Derby and Preakness and is going for greatness as a Triple Crown winner in the starting gate at the Belmont Stakes. That would be the only reason! Jack Van Berg said it best "anyone that says they dont care if they win the Ky Derby, is a plain liar". It is and has been every person that has ever owned a racehorse the dream of a lifetime. Now as for El Padrino and the field he beat... Do you have any idea the difficulty of shipping into Fairgrounds racetrack and winning? The horse he beat (who Larry Jones thinks highly of btw, and trust me he is a way better judge of horse flesh the Chuck Sanford will ever be) looks to have some quaility to him, plus the advantage of having a race over the track and been stabled there. So if you thought it was going to be a cake walk for El Padrino in the Risen Star then maybe you are the one that needs to have a handicapping class or two. Cause in no way did I think El Padrino was going to roll over that field, after all he only beat TAKE CHARGE INDY last time, and that is not saying much! Good luck at the windows everyone...

re: Haskin's Derby Trail: The Fear of Losing

Slew — Wed, 14 Mar 2012 23:13:46 GMT

Ranagul: Point was not that RH10 would win, but he deserved to be in the gate moreso than at least 6 others who qualified. He was floated wide in the Preakness, and still held on for 2nd. He managed 5th in the Belmont. AND he set an example as to why a trainer shouldn't wait too long to start their 3 year old season.

And you asked for only ONE example...and you got it. If it's not to your liking...tough for you.

re: Haskin's Derby Trail: The Fear of Losing

Ranagulzion — Wed, 14 Mar 2012 19:02:41 GMT

Slew,

The Rock Hard Ten situation was exhausted a couple years ago. RHT had no shot against Smarty Jones. Go back and revisit his performances in the Preakness and Belmont of that year. He only developed into a very good horse as a 4YO. You have cited a very weak example. Try again if you wish.

re: Haskin's Derby Trail: The Fear of Losing

CHIEF PICAWINNA — Wed, 14 Mar 2012 14:49:51 GMT

Furlongs one other point going into the Risen Star if you look at the past performances El Padrino was an easy winner.What actually happened is he barely won over Mark Valesky and the stewards could have taken him down.While past performances are a useful tool, they are far from an absolute science.

re: Haskin's Derby Trail: The Fear of Losing

CHIEF PICAWINNA — Wed, 14 Mar 2012 14:41:28 GMT

Furlongs very good post.When you become an owner of a colt on the Derby trail you will get to make those decisions.I think the owner of Take Charge Indy has done very well for himself so far without input from yourself or KY Vet, that base their opinions on past performances.I think the connections of Take Charge Indy base their choices on more practical data input, such as seeing the colt on a daily basis and knowing or realizing the colts capabilities, and their plans for him.BTW owning a Belmont Stakes winner as a sire is certainly not so bad as in comparison to a Kentucky Derby winner at least to those actually in the business of owning racehorses.Sure any casual fan will ask one that owns racehorses in the US "have you ever won the Kentucky Derby"?,but any owner or trainer will not downgrade a winner of the Belmont in comparison to a KDerby winner as a horseplayer would.

re: Haskin's Derby Trail: The Fear of Losing

AquaRacer — Wed, 14 Mar 2012 13:59:29 GMT

Interesting article Mr. Haskin. It seems as though the comments have digressed from the original topic of how horses are being scratched from races for fear of losing. As Mr. Sandford has pointed out, (and say what you will, how often do owners actually show up and defend or give insight into moves made) Take Charge Indy was obviously not scratched because they feared to lose. The fact that they have officially plunked down $15k to enter into the Florida Derby where he will most likely be at least 8-1 shows that they are not afraid to lose with the colt.

That being said, a direct response to the user furlongs, based on my very quick scan of PP's this morning, how do you believe Take Charge Indy does not belong in this race? I am by no means saying he will win this race, but he definitely belongs. He lost by two lengths to El Padrino in the allowance on an off track with a first time rider. I personally think Borel sent him too soon and wasted the big move he has. On that off track, the fractions were identical to the FOY's on a fast track. Again, not saying he is going to win, but I don't think it will be five lengths between the winner and Take Charge Indy.

re: Haskin's Derby Trail: The Fear of Losing

KY VET — Wed, 14 Mar 2012 05:34:49 GMT

Coming into the ring is HIPnumber 41...out of TAKE CHARGE INDY...who was second in an alw race. and once ran in the fl.drby(unplaced)..............when it should have been GRADE 2 winning sire! YOU did the horse wrong sir!

re: Haskin's Derby Trail: The Fear of Losing

ra09hoy — Wed, 14 Mar 2012 02:23:22 GMT

In todays society everyone likes and craves perfection.In horse racing its no different.If you win you are worshiped.And if you lose your a has been.All the greats have losses.Man O War,Citation,Dr Fager,Secretariat,Seattle Slew,Zenyatta,Rachel have all lost.But their still great.Trainers stop handling these horses like fragile eggs!!

re: Haskin's Derby Trail: The Fear of Losing

Racingfan — Wed, 14 Mar 2012 01:39:12 GMT

Dave R and others: I don't see how excluding 2 year old earnings will change the 3 year old picture. Then the lightly raced 3 year olds will just get in with a lot less earnings. The only thing that would stop that would be to set a minimum earning figure that would have to be met to enter. THEN the horses would have to race.....

re: Haskin's Derby Trail: The Fear of Losing

furlongs — Wed, 14 Mar 2012 01:34:03 GMT

Wow Pedigree Ann I was 2 years old when you got your first job! lol Thanks for the bio, on white shoes Barry Irwin. It is noted next time I decide to rant about big mouth know it all owners, ;-) thanks

re: Haskin's Derby Trail: The Fear of Losing

furlongs — Wed, 14 Mar 2012 01:29:48 GMT

CHIEF PICAWINNA

So to pick up a very minor award and $100K is alot better then winning a prep race on the Derby Trail?? I mean winning a race on the dirt going two turns to me sounds like a whole better then running 4th by 15 and then deciding to head to KY to run your horse in the biggest race of his life because he can just get in the gate with earnings and will be 50-1. Horseracing is not just about money, its about dreams of a lifetime. To have a colt of the quailty to make the Derby field to most is a once in a lifetime experiance and running 4th by 15 in the FL Derby and not even close does nothing to make you rest easy when you pull in to Louisville and want to run your colt the in the hardest race to win in the horses lifetime. Doing right by the horse is to put the horse in races where he can win simple as that. This horse is nothing more the a maiden winner and he tried Grade 1 races and was soundly beaten in the past, there is nothing wrong with the Grade 3 Tampa Bay Derby as a wonderful steping stone to see if indeed the horse you own is without a doubt the horse your hoping he is, and that is a Ky Derby contender. If he runs in the FL Derby he will have two preps going into the Derby and no wins as a 3 year old, and only a Maiden win to speak of not to mention not even on a dirt track. How many of those types of horses win the Ky Derby? Which is the goal and the dream of everyone simple as that! Bottom line the Grade 3 TBD was the next stop on the trainers plan to get the horse ready for KY it would been a great race to see if your colt can win on dirt around two turns (both he has never done) and then you could of ran in the ARK Derby, Wood, or Bluegrass as a set up race for the Derby all which are top races to prove once again you belong. Unless Take Charge Indy wins or runs a close second the FL Derby it does absolutly nothing to prove this colt belongs with the likes of Union Rags, Creative Cause, Hansen or ElPadino. Who all look 5 lengths better then anything Take Charge Indy has run to date. So I guess he is a good businessman if you look at it your way, but owners do not buy horses to make money, they do it to chase dreams and hope one day they can win the Ky Derby...

re: Haskin's Derby Trail: The Fear of Losing

Slew — Wed, 14 Mar 2012 00:01:13 GMT

Ranagul: you said "I dare you to show where the Graded Stakes Earnings system has failed even once, since its inceotion. Just give ONE example."

Although addressed to DR D...let me answer...ROCK HARD TEN....all because of a DQ.

And let me ask...did a sprinter like Uncle Mo really deserve a gate. Just because he had the hype and the $$ doesn't mean he could ever get 10f...which he didn't...and scratched.

As to AP Indy...He made it to the Derby but was scratched that morning due to a quarter crack. Bernardini was precocious as his progeny seem to be. But whether or not you realize it, you do knock AP Indy frequently, and it's undeserved. (and don't forget, Super Saver's dam was by AP Indy so Indy has a Derby win).

As far as top rated colts...I see Mr Prospector, Seattle Slew, and Secretariat...cross-bred all over the chart. More recent sires...Unbridled, Storm Cat, Scat Daddy (1 Sunday Silence) and AP Indy. And then there's Indy sons, Bernardini, Pulpit, Malibu Moon. Indy is also the dam sire to Delta Princess, dam to Empire Way and Royal Delta.

So maybe you need to back up a little when trying to catalogue ALL AP Indy's as late bloomers. Some are, quite a few more aren't.

And sooner or later, a Rock Hard Ten is going to challenge a Derby field...but I'm still waiting.

re: Haskin's Derby Trail: The Fear of Losing

CHIEF PICAWINNA — Tue, 13 Mar 2012 22:55:02 GMT

Way to go ChuckSandford you wrote the check for $15,000 for a million dollar race that might have 8 starters.Lets see 60% 1st 20% 2nd 10% 3rd and payoffs for 4th and 5th.You are a good gambler or should I say businessman no shipping charges to run in Tampa in a full field for top prize of $210,000 2nd $70,000 hey I think if you run 3rd in the millioner you make more than 2nd in Tampa.Good Luck in the FLDerby and the Belmont.