Debunking the Myths

re: Debunking the Myths

lucas m. — Mon, 08 Dec 2008 23:07:17 GMT

steve, thanks for the clear thinking. too rare these days.

re: Debunking the Myths

LDP — Mon, 24 Nov 2008 03:18:32 GMT

JCRobinson, that is interesting, since Euro are oh so pure people with their horses. So your telling me they need Lasix to help Henry and RP to win, wow, wouldn't that just get the press in a field day. I do happen to know that if the horse is a bleeder, and performs well off of lasix, that when you put them on lasix for the first time it can really have an effect. Tell me Euros, why preach to us about using drugs, when you come hear and adopt our ways? Kinda hypocritical huh. Well we see a lot of that in the sport anyhow so whats a litte more right. Honestly you should've come over hear to set an example by winning over us cleanly. Hey JCRobinson, who else was running on bute or lasix in the Classic, and who was running on what? I seriously would like to know, so if you can find out more i'd appriciate it. Thx.

re: Debunking the Myths

JCRobinson — Mon, 17 Nov 2008 21:18:06 GMT

I know this is rather late in the game, but I really cannot believe that what I am about to put out there has not been mentioned at all. Of 156 runners in the BC, including all the "hay, oats & water" Euros, a grand total of 2 (TWO!) ran with neither bute nor Lasix- and yes they were Euro, Goldikova and Only Answer. Only one more runner was bute free but had Lasix, and there were 8 only on bute. Included in your Lasix users?? 6 Coolmore horses as well as Raven's Pass. I may not follow racing as much as many of you, but I am confused by this. First, what are Cal. rules for permitting 1st time Lasix, and when could've the Euros shown that they "needed" it? What an American angle by the way, the 1st time Lasix. Secondly, how come the fact that Aidan O'Brien was fined by OAS stewards for failing to report 4 of his runners as 1st time Lasix was buried in a DRF story? Had it been one of our American trainers, no doubt it would've been headline news. Perhaps those with a greater knowledge of med rules can elnlighten me.

re: Debunking the Myths

American Dad — Thu, 13 Nov 2008 12:14:47 GMT

Although this year's Breeder's Cup marked an improvement in the European Horse's performances, it was hardly a butt-whipping.It was an example of what the Breeder's Cup should be, the best horses racing each other on one (or two) days on the same track. Hopefully, the big European operations will continue to send their best when the BC moves to Churchill (or Belmont, etc.). As for going abroad, why are more American horses not racing in Europe? I know Curlin's connections considered the L'Arc but passed. Why don't American horse owners stop complaining about the Europeans coming to the BC until they are willing to send their good horses somewhere other than Dubai? Wouldn't it be great to see Kip Deville at Ascot? How about Good Night Shirt at Cheltenham or Aintree (a Grand National double?). Certainly, its not money since many of the top races in the UK and France have purses in the $1m plus range.

re: Debunking the Myths

LDP — Wed, 12 Nov 2008 01:39:49 GMT

Rock, thank you for clarifying, and by the way the way you made your statement was very well thought out, and well put togeater. I too, would not mind if Zen won HOY, my critism is not of the fact she only faced fillies, but up until the BC she faced the same old weak bunch of fillies. When she did face better competion, i feel that in some ways her competion was comprimised. GP, i feel is over the hill a bit, and obviously hated the Pro ride, Hysterical lady is a monster on dirt, but doesn't really like the pro ride either. CB got blocke up on the inside, and music note gave Zen a head start, so most of Zen's competion never really got a good time to fire their best shots at her. Zen also didn't have to face a top Euro, for example Goldikova, or Zarkava. If those two had been entered Zen might have very well finished third, and if they had the Distaff on dirt, and MN and CB didn't give Zen a head start, she could've finished third or fourth. Then what would we be saying. Another thing if the Cup had been on dirt, Curlin i believe would've w/o a doubt would've won, and if Zen finished third or forth, then what would we say?

re: Debunking the Myths

MikeM — Tue, 11 Nov 2008 20:14:32 GMT

I am by no means an expert on speed figures,Beyers or otherwise,but it seems to me they add 5 to 10 Beyer points if there is a top rider/trainer combo.Just a casual observance based on years of experience.

re: Debunking the Myths

THE ROCK — Tue, 11 Nov 2008 17:57:15 GMT

LDP,

The point I'm making is that I don't believe a filly needs to run against colts in order to be named HOY. I use 1997 as an example as not just b/c HOY was between a 2 yr old and an older horse, but to the extent that two horses were dominant within their own division. As I believe with 2 year olds being considered for HOY from time to time, it should depend on their own merits, to a certain extent of course. If you're by far and away the best horse in your division, and in this respect a very deep division without suffering a loss, you should be favored for HOY. In my opinion, she had enough quality competition to deal with in the Distaff (Ladies Classic). So until she stood in there with best of her bunch and defeated them all at once, then she could go on and tackle the boys. But I just believe with division lacking in quality on one end, and high on the other, I believe it should give her that extra push to be named HOY. If she loses to Curlin or BB, no shame in being named champion within her own division.

re: Debunking the Myths

LDP — Tue, 11 Nov 2008 13:48:35 GMT

Barb yeah it was great Invasor came back, he won in Dubai too, and what a race that was. I just did think of this, but you know that Invasor was i think considered either top hadicap horse or HOY for his Dubai win, yet people with Curlin are saying that his two wins over there shouldn't count. Those were his best performances, and the rank in my opinion better than Zenyatta's Distaff or BB's Derby, so is this some way to erase what he has done so that you can say that another horse looks better? In my opinion you can't put one horse into consideration for an award, and not consider another for it, just to make his competition better. Also please don't say Invasor was put in there based on his Donn win, cause no horse is put into consideration based on one race. It was Invasor's Dubai mainly that put him in the mix, and honestly to count his win in Dubai like it's a race in America, then discount Curlin's performances, because of the fact they weren't in the U.S. is dumb. Don't be unfair to another horse by demeaning what he's done to better you own favorite, we should not have double standards.

re: Debunking the Myths

LDP — Tue, 11 Nov 2008 13:38:06 GMT

Hey guys, i know it's a little off subject, but does anybody know what ever happend to crown of thorns after his injury? I haven't seen any news on him, and i really thought he had some promise, but after the injury nothing. Hey Steve do you mind looking into it for me?

re: Debunking the Myths

the_wiz — Tue, 11 Nov 2008 13:32:52 GMT

Thank you Steve Davidowitz for your expert insight into the "sheets". I have maintained all along that those figs on this years Derby were questionable. Finally someone with real credibility among the racing world is questioning them too. There seems to be too much room for human error in judgement sometimes when calculating those particular figs.

re: Debunking the Myths

Kate — Tue, 11 Nov 2008 09:07:11 GMT

Wanda: thanks for the support, and apologies for amalgamating the USA and Canada. I bunged all horses from both countries in one bag. I do tend to forget how many good things Canada has given the horse world, quite different and apart from the USA. (Silly of me to forget, since I am going out with a Canadian guy, and think he is definitely one of Canada's best exports!!)

Here's hoping Smart Strike proves to be another Canadian success story. His full brother, Strike Smartly, stands in SA and last Sunday, at the big Johannesburg course, Turffontein, two of SS's progeny took out the two main races, both graded races. So Smart Strike's relations are already making thier mark internationally.

EmilioP: I agree speed is overemphasized in breeding and training. Surely that's because there are more races on offer for speed merchants, and 2-year-olds can be started earlier over sprint distances than over a mile or further. So there's more money quicker for a speedy youngster than for an horse needing time and a longer trip to show its best.

OK, OK, so this is stating the obvious, I know! Maybe you care about what you produce, but as you said many breeders breed for the market, like fast-food outlets supplying greasy burgers and heavily-salted chips. What people want, not what's good for them. That's commercial common sense, hm?

As for the retire-em-at-three syndrome, one of the sad results is that horses that don't show their full potential quickly in life, often don't get a proper chance. And in the same way, any serious check in a horse's career, injury, mental hangups or just plain loss of form, can loose it its chance for good. Owners won't wait - who is going to carry on paying for training or spelling when the horse is six, eight, twelve months off the course? And maybe won't win anything once it gets back? There must be many trainers who have gritted their teeth when a horse they know will be good when it matures, gets sold out of their yard by an impatient owner, and florishes amazingly for it's new owner/trainer.

But hey! the Breeders Cup produced one or two warm-heart stories of guys who did wait, though they were not necessarily rewarded with a big-race win at the end of it. Fairy stories are few in racing, I guess. Still, romantic twits like me love them and always get a thrill on the (few) occasions they do come to a happy ending.

I'm hoping Mike de Kock and Eagle Mountain will be one of those happy endings, but we'll still have to wait and see. And Archipenko is another that has been given a second chance with a new trainer, and seems to be making good use of it. I guess we associate ourselves with the horses we admire - wouldn't we all like another chance in life with a more sympathetic trainer?

re: Debunking the Myths

barb — Tue, 11 Nov 2008 07:24:08 GMT

LDP, Yes!!! Invasor was the best!! And he did come back to race after his BCC but he was injured and retired. He wasn't retired to stud like SS and HS and Any Given Saturday, in my opinion all three of them should have stayed in training.

re: Debunking the Myths

barb — Tue, 11 Nov 2008 07:18:27 GMT

Dave, to your question about the Hall of Fame...I think only AP Indy made it after retirement at 3. I wonder if Street Sense will get in via the BC Juv./ Ky Derby combo. Also I agree about the early retirement heartbreak (at least for us fans). I was really expecting to see Raven's Pass in Dubai in March, and back at SA next Nov.(luck willing). And I was also stunned by the choice to retire Zarkava. I have always thought horses are the best at 5, they have really come into themselves physically and mentally. But these days the top horses rarely make it to the track at 4. I wish there was some way to entice owners to wait to go to stud. Maybe synthetic surfaces were supposed to help with that too. If horses suffer less catastrophic breakdowns then maybe owners will have less fear of losing their horses, a stallion with a limp can still breed. And I seem to have noticed a thing with the really good fillies(obviously there are some exceptions) where they aren't real good producers. So why not run them longer? As long as they are healthy an enjoy it I think horses should just keep on racing. Zito and R Mandella seem to be really good with top level older horses, or maybe they are just good at finding good owners :) In todays racing I find it hard to call any horse "GREAT" because they never really seem to prove it.

re: Debunking the Myths

Joe — Tue, 11 Nov 2008 02:10:04 GMT

You can take this European horse versus american horse thing a bit too far. I mean how far back do you wish to go? all american horses came from europe if you go back far enough. Was'nt nasrullah sent over in the 50's from uk. Without him there would be no bold ruler and by extension secretariat or ruffian.If you are going to get real picky about it wasnt george washington of english stock?( i'm not talking about the horse either)! So all your great american champions are ultimately descended from euro lines and before that,there were the arabs. Who cares? they are just racehorses first and foremost.

re: Debunking the Myths

LDP — Tue, 11 Nov 2008 02:06:28 GMT

Dave, i hear you loud and clear. Can you imagine the kind of season we would've had if Hard Spun and SS stayed around? O and what about invasor, i know he'd be what six or seven, but even i'm ready to give credit were it's due, and he was a hecuva horse. This year with those three along with Curlin would've be one of the best ever in quality if all were still racing. It is too bad.

re: Debunking the Myths

LDP — Tue, 11 Nov 2008 02:02:15 GMT

Rock, i may have misunderstood your post, i'm not quite sure who you are taking up for, Zen or Curlin, i am bias but don't mind either way, so can you please clarify for me?

re: Debunking the Myths

LDP — Tue, 11 Nov 2008 01:59:50 GMT

Rock, the difference is, and i'm not being rude, but is two year olds can't race against three year olds or older horses even if they wanted to, unless you want some kind of match race. Zen on the other hand had the oppurtunity to face colts, and go outside her division if she wished, she just didn't. That is the reason we judge differently in that respect. I can ellaborate further if you wish, again not being rude, but if you want me to include more detail i can. I am also open to your oppinion so fire away.

re: Debunking the Myths

Joe — Tue, 11 Nov 2008 01:54:39 GMT

American horses have SOME of the best horses in the world but not ALL of them. Due to the size of the country and the breeding industry, they will have a lot more than a country like ireland for instance. Irish horses are just as good on a per capita basis. Irish turf distance horses are much better usually i.e zarkava and conduit.

re: Debunking the Myths

dave — Mon, 10 Nov 2008 20:59:09 GMT

Steve, many thanks for your sensible comments. We should be grateful to have three candidates for HOY as accomplished as Curlin, Big Brown, and Zenyatta.

Maybe this would be another topic for discussion: the continuing bad news after the Breeders' Cup as one sound horse after another is retired: Zarkava, Raven's Pass, Henrythenavigator, for instance. A 4YO like Tiago could certainly be aimed at the 2009 Breeders Cup over a track he likes. How many American horses besides Secretariat made the Hall of Fame after being retired at 3? Alysheba would have been remembered as a good, not a great horse, had his career been over at 3. Seattle Slew had his detractors right up until he blew the opposition away at 4. Spectacular Bid might have been seen as not having fulfilled his promise if he hadn't had the opportunity for an amazing season at 4. Curlin gets to run at 4 and Street Sense doesn't, so Curlin now seems much the better horse, whereas they seemed equals after their 3YO season. If the improving Raven's Pass got to run at 4, he might achieve a new level of distinction.

re: Debunking the Myths

THE ROCK — Mon, 10 Nov 2008 18:17:54 GMT

I think comparing Zenyatta's campaign this year to the the other two candidates for HOY is a bit unfair if you're considering the fact that she raced exclusively against females. And if that's the case, do we discount a Two Year old for HOY consideration forever? Secretariat and Favorite Trick were just dominant over their competition for a complete season which earned them their HOY titles. So for example Favorite Trick couldn't face Skip Away to duke it out for the championship. What's the deciding factor then? And what was the basis for the outcome in 1997? That he just looked better doing it? Isn't this similar to what we're looking at this year with the HOY debate?

re: Debunking the Myths

Wanda — Mon, 10 Nov 2008 15:28:23 GMT

Kate: I hear you girl. I'm a Horse Chestnut fan myself.I sometimes get the same feeling about comments on Canadian bred horses. I'm not sure why this comes across as less than good compared to US bred ones. I always say that a good horse can come from anywhere and I thought that BC was great with all the Euro's. As you say they are US and Canada as far as breeding. EP.Taylor changed the breeding industry with Northern Dancer didn't he? Samson Farms may change it now with Smart Strike!

re: Debunking the Myths

MikeM — Mon, 10 Nov 2008 15:02:48 GMT

Good point LDP.I'd like to add Afleet Alex to your point. What a smart talented horse.I have not seen many Belmonts more impressive that the one he ran.Wait,wait,wait,push the button and he was gone... I'm quite sure Bobby Frankel feels bad that he sold that horse for an EIGHT FIGURE sum. LOL

re: Debunking the Myths

Kate — Mon, 10 Nov 2008 08:25:58 GMT

It seems to me, reading through these messages, that a lot of folks are unhappy that several of the USA's good horses are being exported, either for racing or breeding or both, and feel that this will result in a poorer class of young horse coming through to give punters the excitement of seeing a champion run, to hold up the USA's reputation abroad, and to meet international challenges at big USA meetings like the Breeder's.

As I mentioned in an earlier message, I'm from South Africa, and this anxiety makes me smile, just a little sadly! For one thing, you guys have enough dollar power to buy nearly any horse you really want, and such a big base of good breeding stock, that it would take an earthquake to do more than rattle your teacups.

In SA, with it's wobbly currency and smaller gene pool, it's tough to be a fan of local racing and breeding. In the last twelve months many of our good horses have disappeared from the country to add value to someone else's studbook. For instance, it's been bye-bye to the dam of Sun Classique, who won three Gp 1's here and the Dubai Duty Free in Dubai. She's been sold back to Australia. Now I hear that Silvano, a German horse, is returning to Germany - hardly a race meeting goes by without at least one winner by Silvano. Small stuff, you say, but our breeding base isn't so large that two good horses won't make a difference. Come to think of it I wonder if Sun Classique herself, or Jay Peg who also won that night in Dubai, will ever come back to SA? With our tough quarantine regulations it is very expensive to get horses overseas to compete, and when offered good money (by SA standards) to leave them there, why not? One of the three best horses ever to be bred in SA, Horse Chestnut (alongside Sea Cottage and Pocket Power - my opinion!!) went to stud in America, and who has ever heard of him since?

So I can understand in my gut why you Americans regret the "loss" of your good horses, but hang on, just wait a moment. They will come back, or their progeny will. Rely on it. You've got the cash to buy back the best of their get. One day I will count up how many sires standing in SA have (USA) in brackets after their names. There are a lot of them.

If you'll excuse me diverging a bit here, I have to get off my chest that I get a bit irritated sometimes how American commentators and writers on racing, call British, French, Aussie, etc., horses coming to compete in the USA "invaders". Their breeding is often half or more American, and sometimes they were born in the USA as well. I remember objecting to a website racing writer using that word about Archipenko, when he came to contest the Arlington Million earlier this year. Cummon!!! Archy is by Kingmambo out of a half-sister to Nijinsky - so is that an invader? And the two days of the Breeder's Cup were echoing about the "invaders" from Britain, France, etc.

So how about seeing this "invasion" or your ongoing "brain drain" differently ... not "we are losing many of our best horses to the Arabs, the French", etc. but "The USA exports are in demand to improve the Thoroughbred worldwide". America has had a BIG influence on breeding of racehorses worldwide. Fact. So be proud of it!!

re: Debunking the Myths

EmilioP — Mon, 10 Nov 2008 03:16:50 GMT

My personal take on the breed is that speed is not the problem, speed, stamina, you see both of them in every 5 generation pedigrees in american horses. THe biggest problem with the breeders is how much inbreeding they do with the same crosses. its almost like its a commercial rule to breed the Mr. Prospector line to the Northern Dancer Line. I personally dont like any inbreeding in the first 4 to 5 generations. And I am saddened that as decades pass we see more great sire-lines being extinct. I see the top 100 sires and i see like 10 Storm Cats, 6 Mr. Ps, about 25 descendantas of Mr. P, and about another 40 that come from Northern Dancer. I know this is a trend put by the commercial breeders. It all probably started with the success of Bold Ruler in the sixties. Throughout the Sixties and all the way to the eighties, The Bold Ruler sire-line dominated American Racing. Bold Ruler and his sons and grandsons What a Pleasure, Reviewer, Raja Baba, Irish Castle, Bold Bidder, Secretariat, Boldnesian, Seattle Slew dominated the classics. Bold Rulers influence seemed to overshadow other top sires, and slowly sire-lines began to disapperar. The Raise a Native line followed suit as well as the Nearctic Line with Northern Dancer and Icecapade; But as the Bold Ruler line still hangs by a string in the commercial market thanks to A.P. Indy, and the Raise a Native line continues mostly thanks to Mr. Prospector, its the Northern Dancer line that has invaded and taken the international breeding market by storm. Storm Cat, Danzig, Nureyev, Vice Regent and his son Deputy Minister, Nijinsky, Sadlers Wells, Fairy King, and all their descendants are dominating worldwide racing as well as the auction ring. They have over-bred these lines so much that you see Northern Dancer inbred 3 to 4 times in most horses today. Its ridiculous, mainly because of the unsoundness. Mr. Prospector also is starting to overpopulate. Im a breeder, and personally I like my horses pedigrees looking more like Curlin, Rock Hard Ten, Barbaro, Rags to Riches, Casino Drive,Ghostzapper. I respect Stronach as well as Juddmonte alot, because they dont inbreed as much as most breeders do these days. In Europe, South America, as well as the other parts of the world there is more than just a couple lines to choose from. In America I am saddened that Man O' WArs line is being held on mostly by Tiznow these days. His son War Admiral on the other hand has disappeared. The Sir Gallahad, lines have disappeared, so have pretty much the Hyperion and Bull Dog lines. I mean Bull Lea's offspring dominated the classics for many years, now its almost gone. Secretariat, his line still lives mostly regionally, and disappearing quickly, his best son Risen Star died prematurely, and so did his best son Star Standard. Seattle Slew has been fared well, but Affirmed is slowly disappearing also as breeders have forgotten about how great an influence he is, specially on turf, he would be ideal for synthetics.Other great lines like the Turn-to, Domino, Ambiorix, Blenheim, Menow-Tom Fool. It almost feels like there is a Northern Dancer-Raise a Native Mafia that controls the market and doesn't let anybody else in. I mean american breeders have sent the likes of Sunday Silence, Red Ransom, and Silver Charm packing to other countries. Sires with great sire influence. If anybody cares to know, there is a horse called Big Bad Jack standing in California, his great grandsire is Citation, he's probably the last remaining sire-line link to Citation, who is basically near extinction. I do not know how the thoroughbred breeding business became a model identical to the fashion business where trends control the market. People say you need to breed for speed. To me a horse is a horse, they all come with 4 legs, they have no notion of their breeding. This stamina lacking thing is more a way of how the horse is brought up and trained. Horses in America are not trained like they used to be. A horse like Bold Forbes or Northern Dancer these days probably would never be able to go past a mile with the trainers of today. Everything is fast now, there is no patience by trainers or even owners. My dad knew Laz Barrera, and Laz made Bold Forbes, a known sprinter, win the kentucky derby and the belmont. He did it by jogging and galloping the colt 2 to 3 miles every day. I mean thats what athletes are supposed to do, train hard for every competition, not be pampered, or keep running half-mile to 5 furlong breezes every week. You want stamina train the horse horse for stamina, keep the colt or filly out more than 10-15 minutes a day, you will see the difference. Thats how its done in every other continent except North America Had Horatio Luro not figured out Princequillo was a horse that needed distance, we wouldve never had Secretariat. And also to point out a horse that is mainly a sprint specialist or a miler will never touch a good or even better yet a great classic horse. What do I mean by this, Unbridled destroyed Housebuster, Precisionist, Gulch and Dancing Spree destroyed their one-turn opposition. Recently Ghostzapper, Rock Hard Ten, Congaree have gobbled up their sprinting opposition. And if you want to get serious, lets go back to Forego destroying Mr. Prospector, or Ancient Title leaving any sprinters in his wake. I will give that the breeders cup sprint is exciting and fast, but i can bet that 99.9% of the time a horse like Curlin, Big Brown, Street Sense, The Rock, Ghostzapper, or all the greats like Dr. Fager would destroy the likes of the Speightowns, Midnight Lutes, Artax,Orientates, Kona Golds, Mr. Prospectors, at any distance from 6 furlongs and farther. I rather have a fast horse who can run 5F to 1 1/2 miles like Smarty Jones than a Benny the Bull anyday. So lets start looking to improve the breed, lets do a little more Broad Brush or Kris S. or Halo lines, or Ribot lines, while they are still out there, lets not let it all come down to only having a Big Bad Jack for any of these wonderful lines. We ask so many times why there hasnt been another Triple Crown winner, well its taken 11 extraordinary horses to do it, its to bad almost all eleven have been forgotten in breeding for another one. Maybe thats the answer, that we forget to easily what got us anywhere in the first place.

re: Debunking the Myths

LDP — Sun, 09 Nov 2008 23:14:29 GMT

barb, my thing with the smarty/bb thing is that smarty was a speedster too, and won from the 15 post against, what i think was the better field. Also people make such a big deal about BB winning from the 20 post, and from my prospective the two are not that different. Also differernt posts can have their advantages and disadvantages, for instance being outside can keep you out of trouble, though if you have a pure speed horse to your inside then, like in smarty's case that's not very good. Smarty probably would've benefited from BB's Belmont post this year. The inside post if your a speedster can help you if you, like smarty break cosistantly well, but it can also get you into trouble, like being boxed, or getting walled up. BB got pinned on the inside, and like smarty couldn't settle, getting rank. In my oppinion, a good horse makes their own luck, and the only thing that could possibly be used as a legit exuse to lossing is if the horse likes the surface. Yes i know had a shoe coming off, but Brother Dereck ran forth and lost one or two shoes during the Derby, and as i said, still ran forth. In my oppinion BB bounced. He had a lack of training, and he was ready to explode the whole week.

Barb, again, i too was saddened by Smarty's retirement, and on that i'm enraged at the retirement of Run Away and Hide! That to me is plain dumb and stupid to do in the midst of the problems our sport is having. It goes to show that many still could care less about the fans, breed or sport, and only about the money, and that is truley saddening. You are right on your point of the lack of 2 yr old foundation, with our top three horses this year. The trainers, for the most part, listened and took their time with these horses before racing them. If more trainers did that, we wouldn't need synthetics. If more people would stop breeding for speed, and more for stamina, heart, and durability, we wouldn't need synthetics, if trainers would quit drugging horses we wouldn't need synthetics. There is nothing wrong with our good old fashion dirt, it's the way we train and the way we breed. If people would relize that, then we would have the perfect breed. Heck we may even beat the Euros.