Kentucky Derby Trail: Quality Performances

re: Kentucky Derby Trail: Quality Performances

Rscarbro48 — Fri, 22 Jan 2010 04:51:16 GMT

Does any one doubt Secretariat could not have ran the mile in 1:32 1/5 or less? He went through the 1 mile post in 1:33 before he set the record in the Marlboro & was clocked 1:57 & change pulling up at the 1 1/4 post. This was done on a "wet fast" track. No doubt in my mind if he did not had to be slowed from keeping Riva Ridge in the rear that 1:33 time would have been less. Know of any horse run every quarter faster than the one before like he did in the Derby? Unheard of in horse racing. Heck, lets knock 1 1/2 seconds because of that juiced-up so called track & still ran it faster than any in history. Could I say the Dr. ran on a super fast track for his record 1 mile? Nope is the answer. Any ever see a horse with such burst of speed as Big Red show us in the Preakness coming from last to first in about 180 yards? In his workouts he set records. Eddy Arcaro said in a interview in 1997 he was the best he ever seen. Citation & Kelso the best he ever rode. Eddy told Lucien Lauren he was the fastest he ever saw & told Ron Turcotte the same. Let me tell ya folks, that big red powerful hoss had plenty of dynamite to back up his claim.

re: Kentucky Derby Trail: Quality Performances

Christy — Tue, 05 May 2009 02:13:16 GMT

Sorry in advance if it was mentioned already but could someone give me the Beyer on Quality Road in the Florida Derby? I understand Dunkirk got a 108 rating in this race...never did hear what QR's was though...

Thx in advance!

re: Kentucky Derby Trail: Quality Performances

Christy — Tue, 05 May 2009 02:06:24 GMT

First and foremost I have to say that Quality Road is def all that and then some and take NOTHING away from his amazing win!!!!

Having said that and watching that race over and over again in replays I think that the way Gomez rode Dunkirk in that race had alot to do why he couldn't ultimately close in the end..

Quality Road had a super easy trip from the start and ran just off the pace. I realize Dunkirk is a closer but making him use that much juice to catch up f/ 7 lengths AND come from the outside he didn't have anything left.

Call me crazy but I think Mike Smith would be the PERFECT Jockey to ride Dunkirk!!!!

re: Kentucky Derby Trail: Quality Performances

Karen2 — Fri, 03 Apr 2009 01:08:09 GMT

This argument is old and regurgitated already. Why do people get into debates about the great horses that have passed? We all have our favorites and we all have reasons why. All of these horses deserve our utmost respect. They are all part of our ever changing racing history. It is a winless argument. It is all opinion and pure speculation. Let's remember all of our great favorites with much love.

re: Kentucky Derby Trail: Quality Performances

sceptre — Thu, 02 Apr 2009 23:23:00 GMT

The 1967 Woodward featured 4 yr. old Buckpasser against Dr. Fager and Damascus, both 3 yr. olds. I was there, and knew then that this would be the greatest field I would ever witness. The real Buckpasser couldn't show up that day-by then he was hobbled with an arthritic rt pastern and hoof (always plagued by quarter cracks-at least 9 as I recall). Phipps ran him that day as a "sporting gesture" (pleasant phrase for a risky and very poor decision). I bet him that day despite knowing that he couldn't win. Read all you can about him, watch his races, and perhaps then you'll understand my regard for him.

re: Kentucky Derby Trail: Quality Performances

marc W — Thu, 02 Apr 2009 20:11:29 GMT

Sham shouldn't be taken in the same breath as Buckpasser-one was a winner one wasn't. When he, Dr Fager and Damascus ran in the same race I think they were the best 3 horses ever to be on a track in the same race at the same time. 3 winners--although I take a little exception that Buckpasser was the best of three-I rate him 3rd in that group. There have been better than 2 of them but never in the same race of 3 greats. (Slew and Affirmed would be another all time greats match up-Sham would have been about as far behind as in the Belmont there as well)

Dr Fager--people who didn't know him will never one what fast was---no horse ever alive could beat him going 6F lets just say up to a mile, and needed help doing it at 1 1/4. Even with it couldn't do it most of the time.--Remember his 3 yr old crop---the best ever.

Again whats the point? I firmly believe Kelso was much superior to John Henry, and Forego and in today's purses probably would have made $25 million--whats the point-can't prove it. I loved John Henry. He and Forego were certainly great horses, but they came when in my opinion the challengers were a little weak. The Bart and Honest Pleasure although nice horses won't ever hit the top 100-150.

Mathew why times? No meaning--I have seen 10K go in 108: & change and stakes won in 1:13. In the old days of Turf Paradise 3K claimer used to shade 1:10 in 6 races a day

Fager once went 6f in 1:06 in a longer race, miles in 1:32 and carried far more weight. In his last race his trainer said to put 160lb on him it wouldn't matter--he broke the track record that day too and it stood for over 20 years---although I not going to look this up but I believe he carried close to 140lb----Sham that!

re: Kentucky Derby Trail: Quality Performances

Matthew W — Thu, 02 Apr 2009 16:39:24 GMT

sceptre--I disagree! I'll "forgive" Sham for taking so long to break his maiden---but I won't "face it" about Sham not being great--based on what? Cuz you saw Buckpasser? Buckpasser and Graustark and other greats did not compete in the Derby! Sham broke his maiden by twenty, won SA Derby by six in 1:47 over Linda's Chief/Groshawk/Ancient Title---then beat Secretariat in Wood---THEN he faced off with Big Red---WHY couldn't HE run under 2:00 in The Derby? Cuz YOU SAY?

re: Kentucky Derby Trail: Quality Performances

sceptre — Thu, 02 Apr 2009 02:45:29 GMT

Hi Matthew W:

Since the issue of this blog is souped-up tracks I'll respond to your reply by saying-the fact that a horse (Secretariat)comes from dead last to win that Derby at Churchill doesn't eliminate the possibility that this track (or any track) was souped-up that day. Not saying that it was-at least any moreso than on other Derbys-I don't know, but I suppose a careful review of the other races on the card that day may shed some light. As far as the 1:59:2 (track record)-note that Secretariat beat Sham by two lengths (approx. 2/5 second)-so Sham that day also broke the record. One could also argue that Sham ran the more taxing race. I'm not suggesting that running times are entirely irrelevant when judging relative ability, but only that they should be considered with a grain of salt. After all, let's face it, Sham wasn't in a league with any of the greats. And I doubt you'd take my $$. Buckpasser, for one, never lost a race without having a legitimate excuse. This cannot be said for Secretariat. I also believe that Buckpasser competed against stiffer competition-and was a member of likely the greatest crop in history (yes, my perspective is broad-I'm aware of the 3 yr. old crop of 1957, and those others). I mention him again, because it annoys me that fans of today fail to appreciate his absolute greatness. Simply the most perfect thoroughbred I've ever witnessed. They rave about Secretariat's looks-trust me there is no comparison. They rave about Secretariat's pedigree-I'd argue that Buckpasser's was better yet. But, had Buckpasser competed in that year's triple crown (and had Graustark likewise) I'm not so certain that Buckpasser would have taken it all. That's how brilliant was Graustark. I've followed this for 50 years, and have never again seen their like. Since those days it's all anti-climax.

re: Kentucky Derby Trail: Quality Performances

Matthew W — Thu, 02 Apr 2009 00:10:12 GMT

Sceptre I agree with you the '73 Belmont Park track was souped up---But the '73 Derby, run in 1:59 2/5, was won by a horse who came from LAST place! Out of those horses you named--at 1 1/4 miles at Churchill, I'll take a Secretariat/Bid exacta box and I'll take your $$ too!

re: Kentucky Derby Trail: Quality Performances

Marc W — Wed, 01 Apr 2009 17:15:41 GMT

Scepter -you missed Hoist the Flag and Damascus---But Why?

Secretariat was best of his generation and was a champion and great horse as were a number of horses. I am huge fan of saying Dr. Fager was the best-but I can't prove it.

I will say one thing though---Finishing second doesn't mean if the first place horse was not in there the second place would win. Lets look at the Gotham--would the horse put away by the winner actually been caught by the second horse? As for excuses and this goes way back to a horse called "The Scoundrel" I worked with his groom. He placed in Triple Crown races and big races around the country--he always had excuses and bad trips--nice horse but not a winner.

I definitely am not in the Sham camp---would he have won the Derby-quite possibly but get off the second fastest Derby kick--times and records are only for winners. Triple crown? I seriously doubt it. Good horse yes, great?-Hardly to be rated near Secretariat and I don't have him on top as mentioned-I am not knocking him as great and certainly could be wrong as anyone picking him.

Although not in my top twenty Prove Out when he beat Secretariat might have won against any horse in history that day-Period!. He was soooooo good that day-

--Funny Cide's Preakness--does anyone think Empire Maker although I rate him better of the two, would have beat him that day if he had run? Doubt it.

Horses get beat by lessers that have that one big day all the time.

Throw in Youth, All Along, Dalhia, why not even the Diva, and as mentioned Hoist the Flag--If Jean Cruguet rode Slew and I rate him in the top 5 says he former was better-what kind of horse was he? His stud career was much too limited but that was great as well.

All guess work---argue all you want-there will never be a clear cut winner. Is there a God?-Same argument but different topic-lots of discussion with no side having defining facts-I am sure someone is right.

re: Kentucky Derby Trail: Quality Performances

Ranagulzion — Wed, 01 Apr 2009 14:33:04 GMT

When you are an experienced trainer knowing that a track has been showing speed bias all season and you nominate a "RABBIT" to set things up for your "silver bullet" horse, then at the last minute pull the "RABBIT" out of the race and end up not "pulling a RABBIT out of a hat" to get your top horse into the Derby (thereby turning your "silver bullet" into a "blank shot"), then turn aroud and whine about speed bias, how can an honest observer be sympathetic to your cause?

I sincerely wish trainer Todd Pletcher all the best and hope that Dunkirk gets into the Derby field because he is indeed a live contender. However if he is denied a shot, someone needs to face up to their responsibility, and lets not get any more loads of sympathy for the horse and "red herring" discussion flowing from a "big time" trainer's whinings.

re: Kentucky Derby Trail: Quality Performances

nickie — Wed, 01 Apr 2009 14:29:12 GMT

Sceptre...Forego[not in his prime]...tuff call since he was a gelding and was fortunate enuff to stay healthy, but '73 Belmont had a race on the undercard that included Forego[8f. I believe] where he won drawing off..so the "gangly" part is debatable...he went on to stamp himself as a great older horse, but I remember Petey Anderson had him in Florida, and he was said to be something special early in his 3yo.campaign. Not an expert on breeding, my only remark was for me I have had luck with runners who have had their dam being sired by Sham.

re: Kentucky Derby Trail: Quality Performances

Draynay — Wed, 01 Apr 2009 13:44:23 GMT

The track does not set records brilliant horses performing at their best do !!! To suggest the track was VERY fast is to take away from their individual performances. Unless the track "Super" is a liar the track was prepared the same on Saturday as it was on Thursday and Friday. The rest of the times that day were fast but not blazing. Its not like claimers were setting records you and all of us were a little lucky to get to see back to back records from two outstanding horses that were pushed to perform their best. Talking about the track being unfair or "juiced" is just crazy talk and does NOTHING to help or promote the sport. Big Drama and Quality Road are the real deal and track records from them is not a shock.

re: Kentucky Derby Trail: Quality Performances

GunBow — Wed, 01 Apr 2009 05:29:32 GMT

Dray,

Almost everyone on this blog has given Quality Road his props. He's a good horse. At least 75% of the blog picked him to win. Alot of people have also given credit to Dunkirk, Big Drama, and This Ones For Phil. They are all good horses. But the fact is, Gulfstream was extremely fast Saturday, something reflected in the solid, but not spectacular, Beyer figs (108 for the Swale, 103 for the Florida Derby). Still, these are nice, young horses and they certainly earned those track records. Big ups to Quality Road and Big Drama in particular.

And, yes, track officials do like track records. It's not a coincidence that often surfaces are very fast, and records broken, on racetracks' biggest days.

re: Kentucky Derby Trail: Quality Performances

GunBow — Wed, 01 Apr 2009 05:21:27 GMT

Bill,

I agree with you regarding Sham in the Belmont. He wasnt the same horse he was in the Derby and Preakness. Had he run at the same level in the Belmont, he wouldn't have fallen back until the top of the stretch, and he would have held on to be 2nd, maybe 15-20 lengths behind Secretariat. Yes, the pace in the Belmont was insane, but Sham was good enough to hang in there longer than 6 furlongs.

Sham's Beyers for the Kentucky Derby and Preakness were around 125. Secretariat ran Beyers in the high 120s for those two races, and Sham was 2.5 lengths back both times. In the Belmont Secretariat ran a Beyer of 148 (although I have seen 139 quoted as well). Either way, it was the highest Beyer since Andy Beyer started making figs 40 years ago.

Sham was a very, very good horse. However, he did not accomplish enough for me to consider him great. It's too bad he wasn't healthy after the Belmont.

re: Kentucky Derby Trail: Quality Performances

Barbara — Wed, 01 Apr 2009 05:12:15 GMT

I have not read all of the comments...but Sham did not ever run again after the Belmont but comparing him to Col John and Tale of Ekati who both did is just odd to begin with. Sham came along in the wrong year. And ran with a bloody mouth after banging his head on the gate in the Derby. Lovely horse.

Secretariat lost the Wood due to the abscess under his lip. Turcotte said in retrospect he thinks he resented the bit as it hurt him and that he should have just given him his head.

Angle Light was not owned by Meadow Stable, he was trained by Lauren.

Hey Sceptre, how is it that Big Red set records in all three TC races on three different tracks and as I recall tied one at Arlington Park if his talent was just about the souped up NYRA tracks? Was the Gotham a souped up track in the winter as well? Saratoga when he broke the 1 1/8 mile track record in a work out? How did he run so fast in the Man o' War on turf - that was a course record, too, right? Oh, that's right - the grass was fast that year, too...

re: Kentucky Derby Trail: Quality Performances

picksixny — Wed, 01 Apr 2009 03:43:25 GMT

dunkirk ran a very good race. but quality road ran the better race. he was looked in the eye by dunkirk who had all the momentum at the top of the stretch and had a head in front then quality road shrugged him off and pulled away. that is a special horse who does that. i have a lot more respect for dunkirk but qr answered every question and more and will be favored in the derby. he deserves the credit for a spectacular performance.

re: Kentucky Derby Trail: Quality Performances

Bill — Wed, 01 Apr 2009 03:14:47 GMT

Another mea culpa. Frank Martin was the NYRA's leading trainer from 1973-1982, so I guess his decline started a wee bit after his time with Sham. Funny thing about memory....

re: Kentucky Derby Trail: Quality Performances

sceptre — Wed, 01 Apr 2009 02:32:00 GMT

Some of these posts regarding Secretariat and Sham lend support to the view that "souping up" tracks should be avoided-but now for a different reason-it potentially lessens our ability to accurately judge our stars' relative merits. Notice how often the times (even fractional times) are offered as evidence in extolling the merits of Secretariat and Sham. I was at Belmont to witness Secretariat's Belmont, and was also on hand for Secretariat's Derby. I well recall Forego tying Belmont's 1 1/16 M record on Secretariat's Belmont undercard. That track was super fast that day. The public hadn't then seen a Triple Crown winner since Citation in '48, and the world, including the powers that be at the NYRA-Belmont wanted Secretariat to be victorious. I'm not suggesting that Secretariat wasn't a "great", but that the Belmont final time of 2:24, more than anything else, enabled him to be viewed by many as among the two or three greatest of all-time. Sham, because he was in the vicinity of Secretariat in both the Derby and Preakness is now also afforded a due exceeding his true worth. Some here have even extended this to an erroneous appraisal of his (Sham's) abilities at stud. Sham, who was afforded a reasonably good opportunity, would be judged as only a moderate stallion at best (I bred to him). Yes, Secretariat was impressive in both the Derby and Preakness, but what can be said for his competition? Forego (at 30-1) ran in that Derby, but smacked the rail while finishing 4th. The tall, then gangly Forego was far from his prime. Secretariat and Forego never met again, but one wonders how Secretariat would have fared against the real Forego. Had there been the opportunity later for several races between them, and had they swapped or been close, Secretariat would not now be held in such reverance (let alone Sham). As far as Secretariat's Belmont- the field was extremely short (only three other horses I recall- a spent Sham, My Gallant and Twice A Prince). Some horses perform quite bravely when there's no competition. Also, his track record has withstood the test of time, because there really hasn't been much of a real test of time. The distance is seldom used, and I doubt the track was ever any faster than that day at Belmont. I understand the limitations we have in accurately comparing horses of different generations, but I could never accept Secretariat as one of the elite greats. Among his relative contemporaries (25 yr. time frame) I'd place several well above him-Buckpasser, Graustark, Tom Fool, Dr. Fager and Ribot. Seattle Slew and Spectacular Bid were likely his equals or better, and same could be said for the more recent Dubai Millennium. I'm sure most on this blog, and its author, will view this as blasphemy.

re: Kentucky Derby Trail: Quality Performances

Matthew W — Wed, 01 Apr 2009 02:02:13 GMT

Bill you bring back vivid memories! I was fourteen and very much into the game in '73---Sham was a defeated animal and just an unheralded guy---"he won less big races than Tale of Ekati"...so the latter day fan sees it like that, Bill...Here's to our memories! Sham was at the least a very good horse...Sham was perhaps--we'll never know--a great horse.....

re: Kentucky Derby Trail: Quality Performances

Matthew W — Wed, 01 Apr 2009 01:33:31 GMT

NICKIE thanks for the mention---I love to hit the Derby--But I LOVE to blog about all of this and I'm noticing your posts and I'm liking what I see! I'm Cali all the way but am in agreement that New York was/is the #1 circuit...my eternal quest for Derby bliss ($$) this year...starts/ends with Julio, Alex and a Grapefruit Schnapps!

re: Kentucky Derby Trail: Quality Performances

Bill — Wed, 01 Apr 2009 01:32:46 GMT

To For Big Red, Matthew, Gun Bow and Nickie,

Where to begin? I acknowledge that Sham did indeed beat Secretariat in the Wood. My memory is not what it was. Pancho Martin was a dominant trainer during the 60's and 70's on the NY circuit, but I think if you check the record his dominance started to decline after Sham's loss in the Belmont - Outstandingly not withstanding. Trust me, I think very highly of Sham and I agree that no horse was going to beat Secretariat that day. However, I still feel that the Sham that ran in the Derby and Preakness wouldn't have folded his tent as soon as the Sham we saw in the Belmont. Didn't he finish last? Sure, that could be attributed to the wicked early pace he accompanied, but remember Secretariat ran each successive fraction faster than the preceding one. That is incredible. I just think that Sham wasn't his best that day and was a broken horse. I'm through beating a dead horse. My apologies for my memory lapses about the Wood.

re: Kentucky Derby Trail: Quality Performances

Matthew W — Wed, 01 Apr 2009 01:18:08 GMT

FOR BIG RED---I agree with your "single greatest performance" being Secretariat's Belmont---This transcends the sport as one of the iconic events of the twentieth century! Too bad it was at that terrible distance! I'd really like to see the Triple Crown changed to this: Ky Derby....ONE MONTH to Preakness....ONE MONTH to Belmont at 1 1/2 miles on TURF!....Big Red woulda won THAT ONE, too!

re: Kentucky Derby Trail: Quality Performances

Matthew W — Wed, 01 Apr 2009 01:11:12 GMT

Bill Angle Light beat Sham a neck I believe--and at least three back to Big Red Of Meadow Stable...actually Angle Light was from Meadow as well...Sham broke his maiden by twenty...won SA Derby by six over Linda's Chief, Groshawk, Ancient Title in 1:47 ft...ran lights out in Derby v Secretariat! Jack Whittaker and Haywood Hale Broun and Lucien Lauren and Ron Turcotte and Penny Tweedy and my Dad and me saw it all in that once in a lifetime Spring!...also re my comments about If Quality Road DOESN'T win Fla Derby (on that speed biased track) he is a Derby "throw out"---as strong a statement as that is, I stand by my words! That was his race to win and he did! I take issue with Draynay cuz I need to see more before I agree with him about 'Road....BUT DRAY was spot on last year with Big Brown--he was annointing him very early indeed! Alas, I cannot allow The Drayman (or anyone) to dis Sham! Few people know Sham beat Secretariat by over three lengths in The Wood Memorial Stakes---and he also stressed Big Red a few weeks later in Kentucky.....

re: Kentucky Derby Trail: Quality Performances

For Big Red — Wed, 01 Apr 2009 00:52:57 GMT

ALL: This is from the owner's website. Old Fashioned worked 5f in 1:00 2/5 today and galloped out in 1:13 without any urging. The track was muddy. The only comment about Friesan Fire is that he's at Keeneland and is doing very well.