Ten Questions That Don't Need Answering

re: Ten Questions That Don't Need Answering

The Deacon — Tue, 04 Jun 2013 07:30:06 GMT

Alex'sBigFan: We can agree to disagree,in my humble opinion I do not think he was a great horse only a good one.

I still commend your love for him, that is what makes horse racing and drives the fans to the track.

One thing I have learned in life is never try to reason with someone who has their mind made up.

I can give 100 examples of what a great horse is and because you have incredible passion for this horse as does robinm, I do not think you would listen to my logic.

It is okay, again I admire your passion.

Good luck Saturday at the Belmont Stakes.

For what it's worth, I like Orb and Revolutionary........ :)

re: Ten Questions That Don't Need Answering

Alex'sBigFan — Mon, 03 Jun 2013 22:59:10 GMT

The Deacon,

What makes him great is not one race, Afleet Alex won the Hopeful Stakes and Sanford at age 2, then the Mountain Valley, Arkansas Derby, Preakness, and Belmont at age 3. That's what makes him great, his consistent wins, not just the Preakness acrobatics. Afleet Alex had many great performances, not just one! He won the Belmont by 7 lengths. Maybe not a Bid or a Dr. Fager or Secretariat or Slew but he's close.

re: Ten Questions That Don't Need Answering

The Deacon — Sun, 02 Jun 2013 22:33:59 GMT

Alex'sBigFan: Hence your pen name.

I will stand by my blogs. One brilliant race doesn't make a horse one of the greatest of all time. Lots of good horses retire after age 3 and sometimes retiring after the Derby trail.

If winning the Triple Crown were easy, we'd have a winner most every year.

Y0u can have the last word if you like but I am done with this discussion. Trues horsemen, and I have spoken to many know the great ones. I will you this, Afleet Alex did have that one great performance, and because of it he will always be remembered.

re: Ten Questions That Don't Need Answering

Alex'sBigFan — Fri, 31 May 2013 23:52:39 GMT

The Deacon & robinm,

The sad thing is we don't even know how great Afleet Alex could have become. He retired at age 3, shortly after getting injured in training after the Belmont in 2005. How about if we classify him as the best of the modern generation set? He can lead that group with his name right after the all time greats. Alex is my favorite thoroughbred of all time and I am trying to be objective too. I know his Preakness acrobatics put him in a category of one of the most amazing animals, according to a Sports Illustrated list. Had Scrappy T run in a straight path we may be having a different discussion now, as they think Alex's injury and fracture stemmed from that incident and exacerbated afterwards. Alex was robbed of a Haskell, or Travers, or JCGC, or BCC, etc. He was 3 Yr. Old Champion in 2005, that he did win. But for now, I got an email 2 days ago from the woman who is designing my Belmont hat. She went on a tour of Gainesway Farm this week and saw my Alex, Fran's Alex, Robin's Alex, little Alex's Alex, Tim Ritchey's Alex, grazing peacefully outside! All seems well in his world and I am thankful for that.

re: Ten Questions That Don't Need Answering

The Deacon — Fri, 31 May 2013 07:42:55 GMT

robinm: My comment was about Northern Dancer not Native Dancer, but I wasn't upset. I just felt you were incorrect.

When the discussion comes up about the greatest horse whoever looked through a bridle Spectaculer Bid's named is always mentioned.

Point Given had much trouble in the Derby but won the Belmont by open lengths. I feel he was better as was Sunday Silence then Afleet Alex. Easy Goer was an awesome horse, the Belmont Stakes proved that. I feel when comparing great horses one must be careful to consider all the facts. I appreciate your love for Afleet Alex, I to adored him but I always try to remain objective. I have been watching horse races since 1955, yes I date myself and I would only 8 or 9 horses took my breath away and the Bid was one of them. There has been great races and awesome performances but to measure true greatness one has to look at the horses body of work.

Example, Secretariat, Spectacular Bid, Dr. Fager, Ruffian, Damascus, Kelso, Man O War, Citation, Swaps, Seattle Slew, Affirmed just to name a few.

Again, your passion for the horse is nice to see..........

re: Ten Questions That Don't Need Answering

Mary — Fri, 31 May 2013 02:16:58 GMT

Someone please explain to me why Todd Pletcher was not sure if Unlimited Budget could get the 1 1/2 mile in the Belmont, pointing out that the bottom of her pedigree was a question mark regarding stamina.

I have no idea who gave him this false information, because in looking at the tail female line of her pedigree, it is replete with stamina. Mahmoud won the Epsom Derby, a 1 1/2 mile race and Princequillo was one of the greatest long distance runners of all time.

In the early 20th century four foundation broodmares left their stamp upon the breed, and Unlimited Budget has two of them in her female line, Mumtaz Mahal and Plucky Liege.

Distance will not be a problem for this filly in the Belmont.

re: Ten Questions That Don't Need Answering

Alex'sBigFan — Fri, 31 May 2013 00:01:08 GMT

JoyJackson21,

Thank you so much for your response. I don't have time to read the other horse blogs much so I was not aware of the Rosario/Orb bashing going on. I'm glad to hear our BH group is an elite group of bloggers, nice to hear. it's a great place to just hang and talk horses that is for sure and BH is great for giving it to us. Well let's see if Orb can redeem himself in the Belmont. Still not happy with Rosario's ride in the Preakness, but agree with you that it was a combination of being pinned in, the deep track, and not being outside. I still think Rosario should have gambled the other way and taken Orb outside immediately out of the gate. No one knows if that would have worked either but given his running style I would have resorted to that option, instead of trying to "pull a Calvin" and I LOVE that expression by Soldier Course!!!!! Enjoy the Bemont Joy, hopefully I will be there attending.

re: Ten Questions That Don't Need Answering

robinm — Thu, 30 May 2013 21:33:49 GMT

Deacon; I didn't go back as far as the great Native Dancer when considering horses deserving of winning the triple crown. I didn't have the opportunity to see him compete, but, being a racing fan, I'm well aware of his accomplishments.

I did say that those that are fans of "the Bid" can make an excellent case for him being the best not to win the TC. And I also stated a case can be made for Smarty Jones as well. Point Given failed miserably in the Derby and Sunday Silence was soundly beaten by a better horse in the Belmont, so personally, I don't include them in the mix for this discussion. I'm also not taking into consideration what these horses did outside of the TC series, nor am I considering truly great horse that did not compete in the series. In writing this, I realize I should have worded my comments differently and strongly stressed "in my opinion". Sorry if I ruffled any feathers.

re: Ten Questions That Don't Need Answering

The Deacon — Thu, 30 May 2013 07:01:47 GMT

Robinm: I normally don't want to chime in on these blogs when someone believes something to be true but your remark that Afleet Alex is in the same class as Spectacular Bid is just ridiculous. The Bid is one of the top 5 horses of all time. He still holds the world record for 10 furlongs, 1:57 4/5. Go back and take a gander at The Bid's racing resume, pretty astounding.

I loved Afleet Alex, his Preakness win was amazing. But to say he was the best horse not to win the Triple Crown is mind boggling.

In fact, I would say Point Given, Sunday Silence (Breeders Cup Classic winner as well) and Majestic Prince were better then Afleet Alex. You could also make a case for Smarty Jones and Big Brown.

Are you also saying that Afleet Alex was better then the great Northern Dancer who the Derby and Preakness but lost the Belmont Stakes. The Dancer is arguably the greatest sire is racing history.

I respect the fact that Afleet Alex was dear to you but you are just not correct......

re: Ten Questions That Don't Need Answering

Deltalady — Tue, 28 May 2013 13:43:52 GMT

Papillon, thanks for bringing out the fact that the NBC replay was edited and was not as complete a replay of the race as the full track feed. That clearly does make a difference in analyzing the race. I guess the only way Orb will be redeemed is to win the next couple of races -- from the outside!!! History is full of champion horses that had quirks but were still considered great nonetheless. I'm sure Steve can recall many more, but one of my favorite horses of all time, Round Table, hated off tracks. He still received many awards for his feats on the track and his career included many records that fell in his wake, in spite of this "defect" in his character!

re: Ten Questions That Don't Need Answering

Soldier Course — Mon, 27 May 2013 20:00:52 GMT

Interesting article about Sir Prize Birthday in Esther Marr's latest column. He resides at Wallkill Correctional Facility in NY as part of the TRF program, and he celebrated his 33rd birthday over the weekend. Raced over 200 times during his career. Tim Ritchey was his trainer at one point, when he was an older horse.

re: Ten Questions That Don't Need Answering

Pedigree Ann — Mon, 27 May 2013 16:01:31 GMT

Soldier Course,

Didn't you read my post about my daughter's cat? TWO vets had checked her out and she acted like a perfectly healthy cat. It was the stress of her tooth cleaning under anesthesia that uncovered the underlying condition.

re: Ten Questions That Don't Need Answering

Fran Loszynski — Mon, 27 May 2013 02:10:34 GMT

Dear Soldier Course Steve is right about Alex I am sure. I can't answer for Tim Ritchey because I m only a fan of Alex but if Tim had noticed even a hair on his mane out of place he would have scratched him. When he took Alex to Gainesway to retire he said it was like taking his son off to college. Try to deny Alex a peppermint with Tim around!

re: Ten Questions That Don't Need Answering

JoyJackson21 — Sun, 26 May 2013 22:57:05 GMT

To Racingfan:

Thank you very much. I've read a lot of blogs (racing blogs and sports blogs) after the Derby, before the Preakness, and after the Preakness - and the posts on the blogs swung wildly from Orb is a "Superhorse" & "Unbeatable" after-Derby & pre-Preakness, to Orb is "just an average horse in a mediocre crop of horses" (and that's saying the NICE things they were saying about Orb post-Preakness). The things being said about Joel Rosario post-Preakness were far worse and the mudslinging at him was stinging, ugly & very personal in nature. I've never seen people flip-flop so fast against a horse & jockey the way they did against Orb & Joel Rosario. It was so fast, it almost gave me whiplash. - LOL. Mere MINUTES after the Preakness the vitriol against them started online. I'm happy to see you are not one of the people doing so out there!

Thank you for your words regarding the other two posts, as well, Racingfan. Let's both check down the road in, say, 7-10 years from now to see if Palace Malice gets his redemption in a future Kentucky Derby the same way Flower Alley received HIS redemption from I'll Have Another in last year's Kentucky Derby!

To Alex'sBigFan:

I read a lot of blogs - racing and sports blogs included. BloodHorse.com is a superior sports blog. The kind of insaneness that is allowed on other blogs out there does not happen here, and for that I am deeply grateful! The posters on this blog are an intelligent group of individuals and give their opinions rationally. The Bloodhorse.com posters have been fair in their assessments, for the most part, of the Preakness. There has been ZERO vitriol on this site. No nastiness at all.

However, that is far from true on most other sports blogs. As I said to Racingfan above, right after the Kentucky Derby Orb was anointed (fairly or not) "Superhorse That Cannot Be Beat." "The Next Triple Crown Winner". Fans and the media were just about unanimously handing Orb the Triple Crown before the Preakness had even been run. Joel Rosario had been anointed "Best Jockey in America" by the press, and fans followed suit in calling him that. That went on for two weeks until the start of the Preakness. WOW, did it ever change AFTER the Preakness! Alarmingly so. I have been reading these sports blogs for years now, and I've become very familiar with and know most of these people by their monikers and what they write about in their posts. They post regularly and often, and are NEVER afraid to offer their opinions. Most of the East Coast fans on these blogs openly identify themselves as East Coasters, or by showing a coastal bias by frequently snarking at people they assume are West Coasters, or not being able to even mention any West Coast-based horse without throwing in a nasty insult against the horse and anyone who might support that horse. Believe me, as an ardent supporter of I'll Have Another last year - who was a West Coast horse - I know of which I speak. The nastiness by opposing fans never stopped, in fact, it still continues to a certain extent.

I've observed these same people this year in their fairly new & vocal support of Orb, then their rapid defection of Orb & Joel Rosario after the Preakness. And with their rapid defection also came the hateful name-calling, the vitriol & the almost out-of-control hysteria against Orb and his jockey. It was galling to read, let alone listen to. If this reaction was happening on just one blog I could say it's just those fans on that blog, but Alex, it's happening on the majority of the sports blogs. To name the fan monikers, including the East Coast fan monikers, would be too long to list here, believe me. The list is pretty massive. I am appalled by the lack of loyalty to a wonderful horse who deserves better fans than the fair-weather fans he has picked up along the way this year. The same goes for Joel Rosario - he deserves better than he has received post-Preakness. I'm not saying not to critique, especially if it is helpful critiquing that some life lessons could be taken from. I'm saying stop the vitriol and name-calling. Neither Orb nor Joel Rosario deserve that just because ONE RACE went awry for whatever reason and they didn't win it. Orb has a long future before him. If a fan truly loves him, they will support & love Orb no matter what the results of his races are. That's my point in my post.

As for that professional journalist who said this is a "mediocre" crop of horses, I saw the same comment and thought it was hogwash. It's much too soon to be labeling this group of horses as "mediocre". The same journalist was hurling that "mediocre" label at the 2011 crop of colts, and many fans unfortunately followed suit in repeating that slur ad-nauseum in endless posts on other sports blogs. Two years later, though, the 2011 crop of colts he labeled as "mediocre" have started proving themselves to be a pretty accomplished group of horses. The unfair "mediocre" crop label was slapped on them way too soon, and now they are proving all of their critics wrong! All they needed was a little time to prove themselves! Just because someone is a journalist does not mean what they say or opine is credible in any sense of the imagination. Some journalists will do or say anything just to advance their careers. Ethical behavior is not a prerequisite for the job, you know. Many do or say whatever they can (ethical, substantiated or not) just to increase sales/revenue & increase their name recognition and fame within their industry. It's our job as the sports public to not let them get away with falsely labeling/evaluating talent in a derogatory way - whether they be human athletes or equine athletes - for the sake of a snappy headline that will garner the journalist what he or she hopes will lead to a larger following. It's far too early to be placing such a label on the 2013 crop of colts and fillies. Most of them are very lightly raced and haven't had a chance to prove to us what they can truly do on the race track. It's going to take a little time for this group to distinguish itself, just like it took the 2011 group of horses almost 2 years to finally distinguish themselves. Let's not be in such a rush to write off these horses. They are trying hard to prove themselves to us. Let's give them some time to do it!

As for your last question, I watched the Preakness many times after the race and I think a combination of things happened in Orb's case in his not winning the race, not just one particularly reason, including Orb's shyness & dislike of running between a wall of horses surrounding him. I've seen most of Orb's previous races, and Orb has never before displayed that he is in the least bit shy about challenging a horse on the lead, so I don't think the herd mentality argument works in his case. Orb's been pretty bold in the past about challenging a lead horse for the lead and closing past those horses. Preakness Day was just not Orb's day.

To Slew:

Nice post. I agree with you!

To Jo Ann Whiteley:

As to the white objects on the track during the Preakness - the first object looked like a Frisbee, the second might have been a plastic grocery bag. One person suggested the second object might have been jockey goggles, which is a plausible answer as well.

To Curlin:

I agree with your post, too.

Happy Memorial Day, everyone!

re: Ten Questions That Don't Need Answering

SkimtheRail — Sun, 26 May 2013 17:11:23 GMT

Steve~ I love this article as it makes us think about the, "What-Ifs".

You are such an eloquent writer and your work always captivates the reader. You are my mentor!

I recently wrote an article on my blog, (Skim The Rail) on my thoughts on the Preakness Stakes.

Regarding your specific thought in #5 --Should Joel Rosario have eased Orb off the rail and into the 3- or 4-path early on when there was no one even close to him? I believe Joel Rosorio should have taken that opportunity to go wide with Orb as the horse has done in all of his races. He does not seem to be the type of horse that runs on the inside as he has proven in all of his races. I would love for you and your readers to check out my article titled , "Orb's Kryptonite" I am an aspiring Blogger and an avid horse racing fan. I love Blood Horse Magazine, I am a loyal follower of your work, and any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

I strive to be a great Writer like you someday!

Thank you so much for your insight!

skimtherail.com

re: Ten Questions That Don't Need Answering

CHIEF PICAWINNA — Sun, 26 May 2013 16:09:17 GMT

Winning a Triple Crown in Horseracing in the US will definitely be put in the records that wont be matched bin.

I know a lot of you old timers on here poo poo this notion,but I firmly believe this, and I am no spring chicken.

Of course I also think that a full slate of racing as a 2yo weakends a US colts chances of winning the Kentucky Derby or completing the Triple Crown as a 3yo.Look at the top three finishers this year Orb and Revolutinary only raced in Maiden races as 2yos and Golden Soul, I think had raced 4 times total. I will go out on a limb and state that colts bred for a distance should only race once or twice as 2yos or only train as a 2yo if they are hoping to sweep the Triple Crown as opposed to precosious speed types which are the majority of colts that are bred commercially in the US.The problem with this theory right off the bat is that the owners in the game nowadays are not in this for sport but for the money,and buying well bred distance colts cost A LOT more money than they did even in the 70s or 80s.So it is natural for these business people to want a return on their investment in the 1st year of racing age 2yo.

What they are mostly hoping to do is get into the breeding part of the business because relative to investment I believe for well heeled owners this is a relatively high margin business in comparison to only owning racehorses.

re: Ten Questions That Don't Need Answering

Coldfacts — Sun, 26 May 2013 11:42:47 GMT

Orb won his last five races preceding the Preakness by a combined 8 3/4L. This equates to an average of 1 3/4L per race. Was he been doing just enough to win or was he the only classic closer in his races? Most of the horses he has defeated surrender leads in either upper or deep stretch.

Golden Soul and Mylute appear to be the only horses that have closed any ground on Orb during his win streak.

Despite Orb’s five race winning streak, his average winning margin did not suggest he was unbeatable.

Orb likes a lot of pace upfront and that was non-existent in the Preakness. Based on his running style, it was always likely that without this set up, his defeat would likely come at hooves of an opponent that was neither one pace nor backing up in deep stretch.

re: Ten Questions That Don't Need Answering

Steve Haskin — Sun, 26 May 2013 04:54:39 GMT

Soldier Course, horses come out of races with a lung infection from the stress of a race, they dont go into the race with a lung infection, at least not that a trainer is aware of. Its when they bleed or cough coming out of the race that it is discovered.

re: Ten Questions That Don't Need Answering

Soldier Course — Sat, 25 May 2013 23:46:11 GMT

Steve:

No criticism implied by this question because I respect all of Afleet Alex's connections, but I have to ask. How was he allowed to run in the Kentucky Derby if he had a lung infection?

re: Ten Questions That Don't Need Answering

CHIEF PICAWINNA — Sat, 25 May 2013 22:23:08 GMT

The Beyer Corp.issued a 105 to Goldie(Goldencents)now they have gone and issued their stamp of approval on Oxbow(106),lets see if it is a good stamp this time.

BTW Orbs stamp didnt turn out so well.I wonder if any betting syndicates are receiving consultation from the Beyer Corp.

re: Ten Questions That Don't Need Answering

Fran Loszynski — Sat, 25 May 2013 21:57:44 GMT

I'd like to thank all the security guards at the Belmont ahead of time. Thank you for protecting these beautiful charges. It is a large track and the task may be tiring but we fans love our racehorses and after the Belmont their magnificance will be well worth your protection.

re: Ten Questions That Don't Need Answering

Fran Loszynski — Sat, 25 May 2013 21:16:42 GMT

No offense to Rosaio but because of the pp1 Calvin Borel should have rode Orb and stayed on the rail through the whole race everyone was waiting for him down the middle and spooked him. But Gary and Oxbow would have won anyway. Oxbow had wings and Gary just let him run his race.

re: Ten Questions That Don't Need Answering

robinm — Sat, 25 May 2013 21:09:06 GMT

papillon; There have been plenty of great horses that missed 1 or more classic races. It's impossible to make a case for any of them as the best horse not to win the TC when they didn't compete. In regards to those that did compete in all 3 but failed in 1, one can certainly make a case for Spectacular Bid being the best. However, Bid lost his Belmont by a significantly greater margin than Alex lost his Derby. I'm aware his trainer gave him an excuse, which may have been valid, but to me he looked like a horse that didn't quite want the distance. No question, he was a great horse and went on to do more than Alex just be virtue of competing as a 4 yr old, whereas Alex was retired at 3 due to injury. A strong case can be made for Smarty Jones as well; bad ride in the Belmont and a few jockeys willing to ruin their colt's chances just to beat him. I'm sure there are other deserving colts I haven't mentioned, but I'll stand by Afleet Alex.

re: Ten Questions That Don't Need Answering

papillon — Sat, 25 May 2013 19:59:15 GMT

you know, instead of seeing orb's preakness as regressing, it's quite possible that the only thing that allowed him to finish as well as he did that day from that position on that track, was his superiority.

had he been just an average horse, or not as good as thought, or just fool's gold, he should have, after "backing up" to 8th, have finished dozens of lengths behind with will take charge, and not with more left in the tank than departing--who was fresher and had spent most of the race on the least tiring part of the track.

tconsider that the preakness wiped mylute out--he reportedly was "gasping" as he crossed the finish line and is not going to the belmont because he is too tired and not eating well. and that golden soul, who skipped the preakness, jut missed his first planned work out after the derby, because he still hasn't recovered from it yet.

but orb is eating fine, has already begun galloping, and is on course for his pre-belmont work. that doesn't suggest an ordinary horse, one that is no better than his crop-mates, who was just too tired to win the preakness.

i don't comprehend at all those saying orb had the opportunity to go wide but that HE choose not to--last time i checked, it is the jockey who steers the horse, chooses the path, and decides when and what holes to dart through. that's kind of like saying its the boats fault for not steering away from the shoals...

steve, on a completely different note--do you think you might sometime write a little homage to mine that bird--the much-maligned "fluke," who just happens to have had the best triple crown results of any horse in the last 5 years? there are horses we love because of their talent, and then there are horses we just love--and mine that bird is one of those. he deserves some recognition for what in hindsight is proving to have been an extraordinary performance...

re: Ten Questions That Don't Need Answering

Curlin 1:53.46 — Sat, 25 May 2013 18:15:06 GMT

Just to be clear, with this comment, I'm not hating on Orb. If he was supposed to be what everyone was making him out to be, before the Preakness, then he should have been able to overcome his supposed dislike for being on the inside. Hindsight is 20/20. Well of course the reason he lost was because he was on the inside. It's not like he didn't have ample chance to get to the outside. Bottom line is he just wasn't good enough that day. No need to justify why he didn't win.