Great Expectations for Dan and Delta

re: Great Expectations for Dan and Delta

Secretariat — Mon, 12 Aug 2013 17:29:37 GMT

Quote:

"Why is it turf horses must win on dirt to be considered great but dirt horses are not required to win against the best turf horses to earn the same honor?"

It's called Steve Crist and his DRF boys. They have "brainwashed" the public into believing it. We have a stigma... here in the states. We feel like we have to be different from the rest of the world.

re: Great Expectations for Dan and Delta

equipoise — Sat, 10 Aug 2013 22:31:08 GMT

Why is it turf horses must win on dirt to be considered great but dirt horses are not required to win against the best turf horses to earn the same honor?

re: Great Expectations for Dan and Delta

The Doctor — Sat, 10 Aug 2013 15:55:02 GMT

Secretariat - Ruffian's career "leaves a lot to be desired' you should be ashamed of yourself and apologize profusely to all of us knowledgeable bloggers, what kind of statement is that????? There was no incentive in 1974/75 for a filly to travel out west. The Deacon has it right, the money and prestige was on the east coast. Everybody knew where she was, she won the New York Triple Crown for fillies against all challengers....There was nothing more for her to win among the fillies. Unfortunately the connections decided to test the colts and the rest is history.

re: Great Expectations for Dan and Delta

Slew — Fri, 09 Aug 2013 00:16:30 GMT

Coldfacts: I've seen Invasor, and he was great. (But I was upset with him the day he beat up my Bernardini in the 2006 BCC...of course Invasor earned that win.)

I too, have been watching for his progeny. Last year I followed Photon, one of his sons. He did well, but he wasn't G1 like his Daddy. There were 2 others who ran, but my Swiss cheese memory fails me at their names. (Heck, I rarely get my own kids' names right.)

I'm so tired of the same old arguments about the Zen. It remains love/hate with no in between. She was great! period! Rachel Alexandra was great too. Why couldn't everyone just accept those 2 little facts without demeaning either?

When I consider the best horse in the 20th Century, I automatically exclude Secretariat AND Ruffian. I think they were from another planet. Horses don't run that fast. They were unbelievable and totally amazing. No other horse can compare to either one. They've become legends of mythic and epic proportions.

Everyone is aware that my true love is the Slew; nothing will change that. BUT, in fair consideration, the greatest horse I have ever seen was the horse that magnetized me to the sport of racing, and was the one and only Citation. His accomplishments supersede all others. This is not said to diminish any other greats, because we have been so abundantly blessed with true thoroughbred talent.

And great horses often throw in a real klunker. I'm supposing our personal evaluations very much depend on which race we watched, and sometimes whether we won or lost a bet.

How often does an Allowance horse win 22 consecutive races? Rapid Redux won 19 straight races in 2011, continuing his streak that began in 2010 and reached 22 races in a row in January 2012. How can you not love that?

And how do you measure the talent of Alydar when he was simply born in the wrong year. (might say the same for Sham.)

re: Great Expectations for Dan and Delta

Coldfacts — Thu, 08 Aug 2013 12:22:33 GMT

Kindly substitute the verb grasping with gasping in my post regarding Invasor.

re: Great Expectations for Dan and Delta

Greg R — Thu, 08 Aug 2013 02:54:45 GMT

I wholeheartedly agree with Cold Facts about Invasor. So his pedigree is not currently the most fashionable. How fashionable was Seattle Slew's pedigree when he started out in life?!! Yet he became an extremely important sire influence, simply because he was a great horse in his own right and passed his qualities along. If breeders don't give Invasor sufficient opportunities with top-rate mares, they'll never know if he could have done the same and his genes will be lost to racing posterity.

re: Great Expectations for Dan and Delta

Greg R — Thu, 08 Aug 2013 02:46:03 GMT

Royal Delta's record is spotty, even against females. Awesome one race, dull and mediocre the next race. I would simply like to see more consistency from her in defeating her own gender, in order for her to consolidate her credentials.

As for Wise Dan, I don't recall, but did you bug Lure's connections to run him long on the dirt? I'm wild about Dan, but I'm not sure he has quite equaled, let alone surpassed Lure, even in his specialty. If you want him to eclipse (no pun intended) Lure as a turf miler, he needs to keep mowing them down on the grass a little longer. Anyway, I thought the Woodward had already been talked about for Wise Dan.

re: Great Expectations for Dan and Delta

Secretariat — Thu, 08 Aug 2013 00:36:45 GMT

Coldfacts,

Were you a Cigar fan? Is that why your so upset about Zenyatta's record (19 wins in a row - which includes 13 grade I victories?

Don't be upset. Embrace it.

re: Great Expectations for Dan and Delta

The Deacon — Thu, 08 Aug 2013 00:03:34 GMT

Secretariat: No disrespect, but your point doesn't hold water. Zenyatta ran most of her races on synthetic and in California. The great Personal Ensign ran every race in New York if my memory serves me. She is considered one of the top fillies of all time.

New York has many tracks, Saratoga, Belmont, Aqueduct, and Monmouth next door in New Jersey.

Travel was much harder back then and there wasn't any Breeders Cup races to lure horses across the country. Eastern purses were usually higher then out west as well. You're talking semantics here. None of us are minimizing Zenyatta as a great horse, my is that I thought Ruffian was just better. Obviously she didn't in 21 races because she broke down in the process of beating Kentucky Derby winner Foolish Pleasure.

So, she never got the chance.....

Like I said, we can agree to disagree.

Keep up the great blogs......

re: Great Expectations for Dan and Delta

Coldfacts — Wed, 07 Aug 2013 20:33:32 GMT

I was very focused on the recently concluded Saratoga Select Yearling Sale. I was hoping to see even one yearling sired by Invasor. Sadly I waited in vain.

Invasor won the 2005 TC in Uruguay. He also won the 2006 Breeders' Cup Classic and the 2007 Dubai World Cup. His racing record reflects one defeat in 12 starts with career earnings of $7.8M. He was voted American Horse of the Year and rated as one of the top horses in the world in 2006.

He was undefeated in six G1 starts in the US. He contested four 10F races and won all. The Dubai WC and Pimlico Special he won were contested at 9.5F, the distance of the Preakness. He won the Gran Premio Nacional-Uruguayan Derby contested at to 12.5F. A distance that exceeds the Belmont. His record of distances won spans the US Triple Crown.

The recently concluded TC saw many of the participants in each leg stumbling home like drunken sailors grasping for air. None were sired by Invasor.

In 2011 Invasor bred only 38 mares in 2011. If ever there was a horse that deserves a chance at stud it has to be Invasor. There are not many stallions standing in the US that has either his record or heart. Is there any reason why breeders are not supporting this stallion?

re: Great Expectations for Dan and Delta

Coldfacts — Wed, 07 Aug 2013 14:49:58 GMT

Secretariat,

It was never my intention to anger you. I considered your assessment of the brilliant mare a bit over the top and I have specified why.

Another contributor specified that she was the best mare she had seen in her life time. Has technology not allowed us the opportunity to see the likes of Black Caviar & Zarkava. There are many of us that remain grateful for the opportunity to see the likes of Goldikova who not only beat the boys in Europe but beat them handily on three occasions in the US and ran creditable 3rd in her quest to beat them on a 4th occasion.

She could have been kept amongst her gender and who knows how many races would have won in succession.

Many brilliant mares did not have their careers managed in a fashion to ensure long win streaks.

Many contributors are sentimental and emotional regarding Zenyatta. Their views of the mare are significantly influenced by their state of mind. The requisite cure for their condition lies in the expansion of their horizons.

re: Great Expectations for Dan and Delta

The Deacon — Wed, 07 Aug 2013 06:15:24 GMT

The Doctor: 110% agree with your assessment............I love Zenyatta as well, but Ruffian in my HUMBLE opinion was the greatest filly I ever saw. I have lived my whole life out west, if anything I try to favor our west coast runners as much as I can but in truth the eastern horses seem to be a little better these days.

I know when I see immortality and I saw it with Ruffian. I traveled far a few times to watch many ofthese great ones.

It was a joy to when Seattle Slew come out west as well as Buckpasser and the great Spectacular Bid. Of course the Doc as well. But that was a long time ago.

Eastern horses rarely come out here anymore. Only the BC seems to draw them away. West coast racing has become mostly an after thought.

re: Great Expectations for Dan and Delta

Secretariat — Wed, 07 Aug 2013 02:05:29 GMT

The Doctor,

Let us not forget that Ruffian stayed in the state of New York all her life. Her campaign leaves a lot to be desired.

During her whole career, she left the state of New York once (running next door in the state of New Jersey).

re: Great Expectations for Dan and Delta

Secretariat — Tue, 06 Aug 2013 22:45:48 GMT

Coldfacts,

You don't know what your talking about when it comes to the 2008 "Breeders Cup Classic".

Zenyatta would of made Ravens Pass, Henry The Navigator and Curlin look like amateurs in that race.

Zenyatta ran the second fastest "Breeders Cup Distaff/Ladies Classic" in the 29 year history of the event. She stopped the teletimer in 1:46.85 in the 2008 "Breeders Cup Distaff/Ladies Classic". Add 12 seconds onto that (1/8 mile) and she wins the 2008 Breeders Cup Classic in 1:58.85.

What you "fail to realize" is that Zenyatta was the fastest (as a 4 yr old). Do yourself a favor and do a little research on Zenyatta.

Zenyatta set a stakes record in the 2008 "El Encino Stakes". She set a track record in the 2008 Grade I "Clement L. Hirsch" and she set a stakes record in the 2008 Grade 1 "Lady's Secret".

re: Great Expectations for Dan and Delta

The Doctor — Tue, 06 Aug 2013 22:27:38 GMT

Paula Higgins & Secretariat - I really love your writing and you opinions, but you really have to get your facts together. Simply read The Deacon's response to your blog he's absolutely correct. Short and long distances Zenyatta never ran 12 furlongs Ruffian won from 5 to 12 furlongs and set records, so much for distance!!!

Sec- "Z raced the best in the world twice", .... I think those fields left a little to be desired. Afraid of nobody .... her connections barely brought her out of CA. One of the most "coddled" careers in history. To put it in perspective the last immortal to grace us with his presence was Spectacular Bid 1980.

re: Great Expectations for Dan and Delta

Coldfacts — Tue, 06 Aug 2013 20:05:00 GMT

Wise Dan’s career is being managed along the similar to that of Zenyatta’s. It appears his connections are comfortable with picking off the low hanging fruits and building up a bank roll and a win streak. At least Zenyatta left her comfort zone when it was advantage to so and won the BCC.

If she had left her comfort zone in 2008, she would have run into Curlin, Henry The Navigator and Ravens Pass. Could have closed from so far back and defeat the one, two finishers in 2008? Highly unlikely as the winner ran 1:59 and a bit. I guess timing is everything.

Are the connections of Wise Dan content to have arguably the greatest American mile turf horse in history? A very interesting question but is he considered same in the public domain? Animal Kingdom had a problem plagued 2012 and came of along respite to finish an electrifying second. The greatest turf miler should not have allowed him to get that close.

Animal Kingdoms next start was against a horse that also finished 2nd in a NTR on the same card. He suffered narrow loss but at least he did not seek low hanging fruits to pick he challenged one of the best. Animal Kingdon then went to Dubai and won the $10M World Cup. His next stop was Ascot. Wise Dan might have won the 2012 HOY title but Animal kingdom won the hearts of the world.

Wise Dan will never be considered great as his body of work is void of serious challenges. In a sport that is becoming more and more global, horses considered great have to do more than just beat up on mostly over matched opponents.

re: Great Expectations for Dan and Delta

Secretariat — Tue, 06 Aug 2013 10:53:19 GMT

The Deacon,

Zenyatta did it all.

She raced the best in the world going 10 furlongs (twice).

Her connections were afraid of "nobody".

In fact, she showed up for the Apple Blossom to run for 5 million dollars and somebody else didn't.

She took on everyone that wanted to take her on. The rest ran and hid.

In fact, Bob Baffert got so tired of having his brains bashed in by Zenyatta, he ended up shipping "Tough Tiz Sis" to Belmont Park for the Grade 1 Ruffian and she destroyed those east coast fillies/mares by a dozen lengths.

re: Great Expectations for Dan and Delta

Secretariat — Tue, 06 Aug 2013 10:43:09 GMT

Coldfacts,

Your too stuck on 3 yr olds. There is a lot more to horse racing than 3 yr olds.

re: Great Expectations for Dan and Delta

The Deacon — Tue, 06 Aug 2013 01:04:13 GMT

Great points by all. I would say that recent memories usually stays with a person. Ruffian ran almost 40 years ago, hell I can't even remember what I had for breakfast. I respect the opinions of every blogger so I won't debate what horse was better. We can just agree to disagree.

Slew: I wasn't debating whether Wise Dan or Royal Delta were very good horses. WD is an excellent miler, probably ranks up there with the all time bests. RD is a fine filly, not an all time great but excellent nonetheless.

I just feel Wise Dan didn't deserve HOTY......

Discussing all time greats of the past is a fun topic.

re: Great Expectations for Dan and Delta

Coldfacts — Mon, 05 Aug 2013 22:23:37 GMT

the best breed

I have no desire to transform this blog into one on Zenyatta. However, the greatest mare ever to race in NA is a stretch when all facts are considered.

I recognize where Zenyatta stands in history. No one can deny the fact that she is the first female to win the Breeders’ Cup Classic and her sequence of G1 victories is ultra-impressive.

Very few thoroughbreds retire with one loss from 22 starts. The great Native Dancer lost once in 22 starts and that loss came in the KD. The Preakness and Belmont were amongst his 21 victories. As a 2YO he won 9 consecutive races with four in one month. Would it be appropriate to compare a male and female with a similar race record as it relates to wins and losses?

Zenyatta is an exceptional racehorse. However, I am of the opinion that there are females who do not have her record but have gone where she has feared to tread.

Genuine Risk took on colts/gelding in the hardest race in the world to win and came away victorious. The connections of many male horses avoid contesting all 3 Triple Crown races because of enormity of contesting 31.5 furlongs in 5 weeks. It is a series of races where only the strong survives. This filly achieved what few supposedly stronger males have in what is considered the ultimate test for 3YO.

Zenyatta’s BCC win, runner up finish and 21 consecutive victories is exceptional. However, are these achievements enough to supersede those of Genuine Risk during the 5 weeks where she took up the challenge to be the first female TC winner? As ludicrous as it may be viewed, it is exceedingly easier to win 21 consecutive races than winning the TC. Native Dancer was the greatest of his and several generations and his failure represents a profound reminder of the enormity of the task.

There are exceptional mares and there are great mares. Greatness cannot always be measured in wins and losses.

re: Great Expectations for Dan and Delta

Dr Drunkinbum — Mon, 05 Aug 2013 21:55:15 GMT

An individual person that saw two horses in person at different points in their life cannot say which one was the best because their perspective at those different ages was very different. For instance, someone that saw Ruffian live at age 25 then saw Zenyatta at age 59. Some will be smarter and more perceptive at 59 than 25 and vice versa. I only saw both on TV but since I was smarter, wiser and more perceptive at 58 than 24 I give the nod to Zenyatta. She is also the most amazing horse of any sex and any era that I know of even if she couldn't beat Secretariat (maybe she could, I don't know) but the way she won her races is astonishing beyond belief. In any sport it is actually impossible to say who was best from different eras because of a multitude of different variables involved. Even times don't tell the whole picture. It is always a guess and a matter of personal tastes. However, what you know is what you know and it doesn't matter if someone else knows something different. I reckon so.

re: Great Expectations for Dan and Delta

Slew — Mon, 05 Aug 2013 21:54:56 GMT

Deacon: Yes, people will always debate about the greatest...and it's fun to discuss, advance, and defend the horse's best abilities.

What I find objectionable is when people continue finding fault with a horse because..."they didn't run in the Classic"..."she didn't run against the boys"..."he hasn't run farther than a mile"..when the horse people are discussing is already great by virtue of what that horse has already acomplished in his/her field of expertise.

In 1977 Seattle Slew was not appreciated for what he accomplished. He was called mediocre. He was called OK in a poor crop of 3 year-olds. History has proved his critics wrong, not only on the track, but definitely in the stud barn.

All I'm saying is let's not wait 35 years to appreciate the accomplishments of the horses running today. Wise Dan and Royal Delta deserve their accolades now, and deserve them for the divisions in which they excel.

re: Great Expectations for Dan and Delta

The Deacon — Mon, 05 Aug 2013 18:54:55 GMT

Paula Higgins: I always respect what you say and your insights about the game. However I must respectfully disagree with your assessment of who the filly of all time is. I have not read where old timers such as myself state Zenyatta is a better filly then Ruffian. Perhaps you have but mostly I hear that the so called expects don't take a stand.

Ruffian won at 12 furlongs, Big Z never ran that far. Of course we know she would have loved the distance but people forget distance didn't bother Ruffian in the slightest. The Coaching Club American Oaks used to be run at 12 furlongs, she still holds the race record. The past 4 years or so it has been run at 9 furlongs. Totally thought this was a bad decision to change the distance.

Ruffian was almost never headed in a race, no filly ever got close to her. Lucien Laurin said she was better then Secretariat. She was leading Foolish Pleasure in that ill fated match race when she broke down. Horse racing broke my heart that day. I remember it as it was yesterday.

Me and a buddy saw Jose Santos, her jockey in Florida many years ago. My friend is a trainer at Portland Meadows in Oregon. Santos said that Ruffian would have won that race by daylight and she was the best horse he had ever ridden.

In respect to Big Z, most of her races were on a synthetic surface and the race times were average to slow (not her fault). She also primarily raced out west here. My point is her connections should have done more to insure her immortality. She was handled with kid gloves over a 4 year period.

She should have been greater but I do rank in my top 5 of all time.

Nevertheless I respect your opinion and hope you keep sharing your views............

re: Great Expectations for Dan and Delta

Paula Higgins — Mon, 05 Aug 2013 03:44:00 GMT

The Doctor and Deacon, there are other old timers who saw both Ruffian and Zenyatta race and they place Zenyatta ahead of Ruffian. To me, they are very close on the pedestal, but they raced at different distances. Zenyatta would have beaten Ruffian at the longer distances and Ruffian would have beaten Zenyatta at the shorter ones. They are both immortals of the racing world in my opinion. As for the all time best, I think it is problematic saying anyone is the greatest of all time. But when you have that conversation, Secretariat is at the top of the list along with Man O' War, Seattle Slew, Dr. Fager and Citation. A case could be made for any one of them. Zenyatta is in my top 10.

Linda in Texas, thanks for the link! He is one of my all time favorites. A truly great horse and I don't think he has gotten the recognition he deserves. The Chapmans were wonderful and it was a very sad day for them when Smarty came so close in the Belmont but didn't quite get there.

re: Great Expectations for Dan and Delta

Linda in Texas — Sun, 04 Aug 2013 23:28:49 GMT

Ted from LA - Thanks for the video shot of the cornfield! Just read this blog as i get the withdrawals on Sunday afternoons with the races over and saw your post.Took me a minute to find the blog but i did.

A thought, as big as Texas is every owned acre is barbed wire fenced. But in Iowa you can drive along I 80 for miles and miles with fields of corn and soy beans growing on both sides of the highway right to the edge and never see a fence. I think that amazed me the most. They do though park their John Deere's snug against the barns close to their homes and believe in property rights and self defense the old fashioned way, usually found leaning against the kitchen door.:)