Wise Dan an Efficient Machine

re: Wise Dan an Efficient Machine

chucky — Mon, 02 Sep 2013 17:04:16 GMT

Mr. Haskins,

Since my opinion is so unpopular, I waited a bit to follow up.

But in a nutshell, the biggest reason (there are others) why this industry continue to decline is because of the breeding.

When I was a teen in the 70s, it was common to see the great prestigious races headlined in the media, via sports pages and on television. The Big Cap, Pacific Classic, Triple Crown races, Travers, all the way to the handicap triple, JCGC Arlington Million, Marboro Cup triple tiara...etc etc.

Now the only hype we get is the Kentucky Derby and the Belmont if KD winner also wins the Preakness. We also have the Breeders Cup but this event is also losing popularity and with the Irish, British putting up their own end of year events coupled with the Arc weekend, what does the future holds?

With the lost of importance and prestige of our year long events and it's disappearance from the headlines, the recruitment of new fans and eventually their conversion as customers (bettors) have suffered.

Less and less customers meant a losing business.

Double whammy! with the breeding for frail speed with less stamina, the prestigious events which requires thoroughbreds to go 10 furlongs or further died. The frail now requires more medications just to run the few races they are capable of and the potential stars that can basically run just a mile disappeared after a few races because of the breeding shed or injury.

When this racing industry was still up there, the breeding was always for the triple crown. It was towards breeding the classic distance horses. That is what a thoroughbred is all about. Speed, stamina, strength, agility and durability. The durability was the first to be ignored for the breeding shed but at least we still bred for the classics.

Those days are gone now and I do not think we can recover from that failed policy.

When you stated that Black Caviar and Frankel as specialist and specially Frankel as a miler, I would bet my last dollar you were the only industry personality who have publicly stated that. When Frankel was winning all those mile races, he was always been compared to the Ribot, Sea The Stars, Sea Bird. I don't think Frankel was once compared to the great miler Goldikova and then of course the "official" rating that his 8 furlongs at QA was better than Dancing Brave's 12 furlongs Arc. IMO strongest opinion a wild stretch of anybody's imagination. To the great Sir Henry Cecil, he never got on that bandwagon. Wonder if has anything to do with the British new Champions day where their premier race is 10 furlongs.

As for me, when Black Caviar and Frankel were winning, Saint Nicholas Abbey and Orfevre were the best thoroughbreds running. Breeding horses away from the Melbourne Cup, King George VI, Epsom Derby, Irish Derby, Arc de Triomphe where a horse proves that he or she is now a bonafide thoroughbred is very short sighted.

There was no doubt in my mind that Frankel would still have won europes hoy even if Camelot won the triple. The push towards breeding for the shorter distances, fast horses is the goal. I guess they still not learning from us.

Not saying we would be where we were a few decades ago but imo we would be better off and in much better position.

At least the Germans and Japanese know what thoroughbred racing and breeding is all about. It is toward the Ribot and Secretariat, not towards the Dash for Cash.

I could go on and on...yes this is still a business and it's main attraction is thoroughbred racing, not breeding. Being short-sighted in more ways than one is the reason why we are where we are today.

Thank you.

re: Wise Dan an Efficient Machine

Coldfacts — Wed, 14 Aug 2013 01:16:46 GMT

Owlbet,

No biology lesson needed it was an obvious error. I selected the wrong from spell check. I need to pay more attention to editing before I hit the submit option.

There was a brilliant horse in Jamaica by the name The Viceroy. He twisted his testicles and there was no option but to geld him to save his life. Two week after the procedure he won the Two Guineas. He went on to win the Jamaican Triple Crown.

There was another brilliant horse by the Legal Light. Both his dam and sire were from England. He was a magnificent looking chestnut standing at 17 hands. He just would not train and tried to kill all his handlers. He was gelded. He won eight race in row twice. He was a accustom to carrying 133lbs to his opponents 90lbs.

I understand your point but unfortunately sometimes the procedure is unavoidable.

re: Wise Dan an Efficient Machine

tommyboyo — Tue, 13 Aug 2013 19:08:12 GMT

re: Dr Drunkinbum

Chuckle, chuckle.

Nice effort at trolling.

re: Wise Dan an Efficient Machine

Dr Drunkinbum — Tue, 13 Aug 2013 14:03:03 GMT

Frankly, Wise Dan is underrated, and would have beaten Frankel at a mile on the turf over here if given the chance. Over there, Frankel would have won. I encourage the Euros to bring their best over to the Breeder's Cup Turf Mile this year. Wise Dan needs some competition. The Euros will lose but I want Wise Dan to be pushed a little more so he can set the world record time for the turf mile. He is a phenominal powerhouse, cruising through these wins the last few years and we have yet to see his best. Without an extraordinarily troubled trip in this year's BC you will see something spectacular. So far I don't see anyone else that can beat him out for a HOY repeat although there is plenty of time left for someone to step up. The advantage with the voters always goes to the 9f-10f dirt horses for HOY but there still has to be a standout.

re: Wise Dan an Efficient Machine

tommyboyo — Tue, 13 Aug 2013 08:45:19 GMT

He may well me the best turf miler around at the moment. Last years form would suggest that he is right up there. Fact is though, to prove it he would have to be beating more than King Kreesa/Lea/Optimizer.

Regarding your use of one Excelebration run as a form guide, behave! How about we use Animal Kingdom's one run at Royal Ascot as a form guide then? He was beaten 11.5L by Declaration of War in that race and only 1.5L by Wise Dan at Santa Anita last Fall. If we are suggesting that this is an accurate representation of from (which I am not) then he is well behind a lot of the Euro' milers.

re: Wise Dan an Efficient Machine

tommyboyo — Tue, 13 Aug 2013 08:44:45 GMT

re: Wise Dan an Efficient Machine

Owlbet — Tue, 13 Aug 2013 04:22:13 GMT

Nah, you're the one that's ultra-funny. Horses have four legs and octopi have eight. You've mixed up your equine and octopus body parts. Tentacles are the "arms" of an octopus; testicles are the equine reproductive parts responsible for making testosterone.

A little biology lesson is in order!

I don't have to explain why I don't care for geldings that race. But if you must know, it's because they win, win impressively, win fan's hearts (I'm a fan of Wise Dan even though he's a gelding), run more races than an intact horse, and then trot off into the sunset to leave nothing behind other than a legacy on the track. Worse case scenario they end up in slaughterhouses. Gelded horses leave me wanting more and that something more is progeny. They can't breed. Geldings limit my rooting power. I may not like it, but geldings will continue to race.

As for ridglings, some are able to breed. A P Indy is probably the most famous ridgling of them all.

re: Wise Dan an Efficient Machine

Signal — Mon, 12 Aug 2013 23:11:23 GMT

Rana,

If your hype horse enter BC Clasic

GOD will chew him up and spit it out at the top of the lane.

and I am walk the talk,because my offer to you still stand.

This HOY does not scare me one bit.

re: Wise Dan an Efficient Machine

Ranagulzion — Mon, 12 Aug 2013 19:11:50 GMT

tommyboyo 12 Aug 2013 8:55 AM,

You wrote of Wise Dan, that to "compare him to the likes of Frankel and Black Caviar is quite honestly embarrassing". Are you for real "Boyo"? Did you see how Wise Dan put away Frankel's whipping horse, Excelebration in last year's Breeder's Cup Mile? I regard myself as a connoisseur of thoroughbred racing, of both the European and American variety and I put it to you right now that Wise Dan is the top turf miler ON THE PLANET "Boyo" ...yes sir, on the planet!!!

Owlbet,

For your sake I'm glad that Wise Dan is a gelding in America so that you can appreciate his quality over the period of a few racing seasons. It is my wish that his connections would ship him across the pond to silence all the Euro-doubters ...although Fink & LoPresti are not obliged to do so since Frankel's connections didn't think they needed to, even to go to the 2012 Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe.

re: Wise Dan an Efficient Machine

chucky — Mon, 12 Aug 2013 19:01:25 GMT

Tommyboyo, Yes Wise Dan and Frankel are comparable, both are basically milers and both beat Excelebration.

and lastly, there is nothing objective about those ratings. To say that you can compare horses in different generations and eras is foolish let alone downgrading Dancing Brave 12 furlongs race at the tough Longchamp course to boost Frankel's 8 furlongs race at basically straightaway racecourse is ridiculous.

re: Wise Dan an Efficient Machine

Ranagulzion — Mon, 12 Aug 2013 18:44:40 GMT

Signal,

Game On Dude was clobbered by Dullahan in the Pacific Classic last year. Lets see if he can turn the tables on that one in this year's renewal of the PC before you start trying to pit him against the reigning HOTY. Lets see if your talk has any walk first ...Dullahan is coming to shut you up as far as I can see.

re: Wise Dan an Efficient Machine

tommyboyo — Mon, 12 Aug 2013 18:13:15 GMT

And I am not trying to denigrate Black Caviar in any way shape or form. A truly wonderful Mare and a career record to rival any. Probably my all time favourite horse.

re: Wise Dan an Efficient Machine

tommyboyo — Mon, 12 Aug 2013 18:10:14 GMT

Also, zipping round the tight mile turf track at Santa Anita is hardly conducive to dominant, or even truly representative performances. Would have been nice to see Wise Dan come over and run in the Sussex or the Marois. Could still come for the Moulin or the QEII though. There are also some top turf races over a mile in Hong Kong & Japan in the fall. Both offer excellent prize money and good opposition, so why not run in one of those?

re: Wise Dan an Efficient Machine

tommyboyo — Mon, 12 Aug 2013 18:05:12 GMT

I am, but my job is to follow and report on US racing, which I love, so no bias whatsoever from me. Why doesn't Wise Dan come to Europe then and run in some proper turf races? I guess it doesn't work like that in your book though. That's what makes me laugh sometimes, that you guys think that you ever see the best of our runners, when they have to ship and acclimatise in quick time at the end of long hard European seasons.

re: Wise Dan an Efficient Machine

ksweatman9 — Mon, 12 Aug 2013 16:19:11 GMT

Tommyboyo, You must be British. Seems you had to take a jab at two wonderful champions in order to make the point that Frankel was a great horse. Quite tacky and not sportsman like in my opinion. Horses prove themselves in the flesh on the track, not by numbers. A string of 25 consecutive wins is something Frankel didn't come close to. How can anyone be so sure he would've prevailed at such a feat? Fact is, you can't, and Black Caviar did. As for Wise Dan, you are the only one comparing him to Frankel. Anyway, send your ponies from across the pond to the Breeder's Cup and let's see if Wise Dan's slow time form can leave them eating his dust.

re: Wise Dan an Efficient Machine

Signal — Mon, 12 Aug 2013 15:52:29 GMT

If WD runs against GOD in the Breeders's cup classic, he' ll still running while GOD already head back to the barn.

Let's walk the talk.

re: Wise Dan an Efficient Machine

Coldfacts — Mon, 12 Aug 2013 13:40:56 GMT

Owlbet,

"I'm not a fan of geldings that race"

You are ultra funny. Are you a fan of geldings that do not race?

Do you have issues with Ridglings that race?

Horses are gelded for various reasons. The only problem I have with the gelding procedure relates to timing. A gelded horse losses its testosterone producing agents. I am of the opinion if a horse is not at a stage of development physically, being gelded could hamper said growth and development.

There are synthetic forms of testosterone that can be used to compensate for the loss tentacle function.

re: Wise Dan an Efficient Machine

tommyboyo — Mon, 12 Aug 2013 13:04:08 GMT

To put some perspective on it, Frankel twice achieved ratings of 143. Black Caviar's best was 133 and she topped 130 on eight occasions. Wise Dan's best figure is 128, placing him 5lbs behind BC and 15lbs (that equates to about 30 lengths in a race) behind Frankel. These are objective ratings based on weights/measures, NOT subjective opinions.

re: Wise Dan an Efficient Machine

tommyboyo — Mon, 12 Aug 2013 12:55:00 GMT

Not sure if you are aware of this, but your turf Grade 1's are fairly woeful compared to the rest of the world. Just look at some of the European horses who have shipped out and won them, they were hardly the cream of the crop back home. Wise Dan is a very good horse no doubt, but not a 'great' as some seem to be suggesting and to compare him to the likes of Frankel and Black Caviar is quite honestly embarrassing.

re: Wise Dan an Efficient Machine

Coldfacts — Mon, 12 Aug 2013 02:10:48 GMT

Ranagulzion,

I touted a former maiden claimer to defeat the HOY. It must be clear that I have no fears regarding the opposition of top horses.

Wise Dan was always the horse to beat. If the connections of horses harbored fear of challenging 2-5 horses, many races would not be filled.

Kindly view the quote below extracted from my initial post:

"If he can carry his speed to a time of 1:32/1:33 he should get the job done."

KK did not carry his speed to any of the two times cited above but ran creditably.

KK has never won on a turf not listed as firm.

Needler in Virginia,

You do realize that this is not a forum in which view are verbalized. You therefore did not have an opportunity to listen to my views, you merely read them.

I do not recall seeing your post supporting Wise Dan prior to the race.

In sport that involves tiny humans armed with whips on the backs of 1.000lbs animals, strange things can occur.

A horse is as good as its last race and past performances do not guarantee for future success.

Enjoy WD's victory without trying to ridiculed those who choose to oppose him.

re: Wise Dan an Efficient Machine

Owlbet — Sun, 11 Aug 2013 23:14:12 GMT

I just don't get the "love" that people have for Wise Dan. He can't go to stud, so the best his owners can do is grab the cash. Sad really. If you can't tell, I'm not a fan of geldings that race.

re: Wise Dan an Efficient Machine

Steve Haskin — Sun, 11 Aug 2013 20:09:08 GMT

Smarie, I have to disagree with you. No one talks about Game On Dude, considering he is unbeaten this year, all stakes. Despite winning the Santa Anita Handicap and Hollywood Gold Cup, Wise Dan still has three times as many first-place votes in the weekly NTRA poll, and he did even before the Firecracker. Last year, Eclipse voters gave him three awards, including older male over Fort Larned, who had won the BC Classic, Whitney, Cornhusker, and 3rd in the JC Gold Cup. People are in love with Wise Dan, so much so that it was no contest between him and Little Mike and Point of Entry for top grass horse, even though Little Mike won the BC Turf and Arlington Million.

re: Wise Dan an Efficient Machine

smarie — Sun, 11 Aug 2013 18:35:24 GMT

Maybe because he is mainly a turf horse, or maybe because he's not a filly, or maybe because his connections aren't as outspoken as some, for whatever reasons, Wise Dan doesn't seem to stir up the same responses in fans as Zenyatta or Game On Dude or any of racing's recent stars have. It does seem like many fans don't have the same interest in turf racing and it's stars as they do in horses and races that run on dirt.

I was very impressed with Wise Dan's win in the Fourstardave. If he keeps on winning, I cannot see who would be more deserving of being our Horse of the Year for 2013, whether he runs in the BC Classic or not.

Congratulations to Morton Fink, Charles Lopresti and the rest of team Wise Dan. You have a wonderful horse and you certainly know how to manage his career.

re: Wise Dan an Efficient Machine

Windolin — Sun, 11 Aug 2013 17:51:07 GMT

Wise Dan and Johnny V won the race without the lifting of the whip. They were both calm and cool and waited for the opening. You could tell that Wise Dan still had plenty left after crossing the wire. There was a photo taken of him after the race..what a beautiful intelligent eye this horse has. I hope that there are some that are learning that if given time to mature both physically and mentally, many horses can have winning careers long past 3. I for one am becoming a big fan of the turf racing. I will be cheering for Wise Dan for HOY. I think we see in Wise Dan what Secretariat could have accomplished had he not been retired to stud. I do have a question...there are mares that carry foals and still race and stallions in other breeds compete are used as studs at the same time. Why not with the Thoroughbreds?

re: Wise Dan an Efficient Machine

Ranagulzion — Sun, 11 Aug 2013 17:43:34 GMT

Coldfacts 10 Aug 2013 7:43 AM

Predicting the outcome of the Fourstardave, you touted King Kreesa to blot Wise Dan's 2013 copy book by the hook or the crook - I quote the last line of your post:

"If KK does not win he will certainly cost WD the race ...If KK does not win he will certainly cost WD the race ...If KK does not win he will certainly cost WD the race"

Eat crow!!! and lots of it my friend. Wise Dan won the race comfortably in 1:34 flat, carrying 129lbs and allowing weight all around ...is he still not a worthy favourite to retain the HOTY crown in your estimation? Don't bother to reply ...just think honestly about your answer.

Steve,

On reflection, you might want to adjust the title of the blog to: WISE DAN, AN EFFICIENT WINNING MACHINE!