Let's Not Forget the Other Dan

re: Let's Not Forget the Other Dan

Dr Drunkinbum — Sun, 18 Aug 2013 19:53:05 GMT

Now this is just dandy. I come here for a little peace and quiet and find myself in a quagmire of dissension and controversy, so I hope I can clear it all up.

Morton Fink, the owner of both Successful Dan and Wise Dan, is a very successful and wise man. The decision to enter Successful Dan in The Classic and Wise Dan in the BC Turf Mile will be a very wise and successful decison indeed if both win their races. Dan the torpedoes full speed ahead and may they return safely.

re: Let's Not Forget the Other Dan

JerseyBoy — Sun, 18 Aug 2013 17:22:15 GMT

Davids:

Timeform ranks the horses. I have no issue with their work. In fact, I agree with Timeform.

They rank the horse’s performance whether it is on dirt or grass and I accept it.

By the way, they have Wise Dan ranked # 3 in the world. See below.

You asked “Would Frankel have beaten Sea Bird?”

Yes, Frankel would have crushed Sea Bird at a mile. Grey Dawn beat Sea Bird.

Timeform Top 5 rankings worldwide, July 3, 2013:

BLACK CAVIAR 136

CIRRUS DES AIGLES 135

WISE DAN 134

FARHH 132

GOLD SHIP 131

re: Let's Not Forget the Other Dan

Linda in Texas — Sun, 18 Aug 2013 15:00:36 GMT

You know Steve loves a great race.

After all he is the best sports writer of any sport and he happens to be the best sports writer of my favorite sport. Given his history and longevity at it, i think he has earned his right to make his opines and thoughts known. And he is right. You know, we spend more time 'wondering' about races that never happened as much or more as we do about those that did. With that said, a great horse race is a terrible thing to waste/lose and pardon me as i steal a phrase.

Mr. Haskin of all people has the utmost respect for his elders. Yours truly included regardless of what i say. Mr. And Mrs. Fink are dear people and Steve was not dissing them or their horses. I don't think i have ever read a word about a horse Steve did not like, maybe about one who would bite but that is about as negative as he gets and that is understandable, hard to write without an index finger!

Now to the Winning Sire of The Day, cannot say of the year because there are Malibu Moon and Giant's Causeway and several others in my opinion. But Congratulations to Kitten's Joy - so glad i was able to see all 3 races and convinced Mr. Ramsey is serious about his horses and his races. And for anyone who may disagree in the disqualification of My Apache, i saw at least 3 if not 4 bumps in the head on shots of the race. BUT it was not the The Apache's fault. This time it was the jockey i am sorry to say. Each strike of the stick The Apache veered a bit more. Finally, after it was too late, the jockey reined him over but the damage had been done.

And not to forget The Winning Dams, Reachinforthestars and Reachinforthe heavens and Spent Gold!

So Congrats to The Ramsey Clan and especially to the caregivers of the horses, then the trainers and jockeys. And hopefully Kitten's Joy is at the top of the list for treats in his pail every evening.

I think the Ramsey's are on to something with him. :) Mr. Ramsey needs to keep the smelling salts close by as that was some kind of 'day at the office.' It is Sunday morning and i bet he is pinching himself as i type this.

And Thanks HRTV.com for Zoe, Gentleman John White (who yesterday stated that Man O'War was the greatest thoroughbred race horse ever and i so agree), Richard Migliore, Mr. Siegel, Aaron and Peter, et al. Great day at the races.

And thanks Steve. You are the best.

re: Let's Not Forget the Other Dan

Linda in Texas — Sun, 18 Aug 2013 15:00:35 GMT

You know Steve loves a great race.

And not to forget The Winning Dams, Reachinforthestars and Reachinforthe heavens and Spent Gold!

And thanks Steve. You are the best.

re: Let's Not Forget the Other Dan

ksweatman9 — Sun, 18 Aug 2013 14:03:00 GMT

Big Red Always, my mention of "fun" was directed at the thought of a match race today, perhaps with the likes of Little Mike and Wise Dan. When I think of Ruffian,sadness sweeps over me remembering that tragic moment in time. Most people can read, but few people understand what they are reading. One more thing, the way Ruffian ran, with all her heart, not wanting to relinquish the lead for a second, that breakdown could've happened at any time, in any race. Babies are born only to die before their first birthday, children are cursed with cancer, and beautiful thoroughbreds break down and never get up again. Take it up with God.

re: Let's Not Forget the Other Dan

Paula Higgins — Sun, 18 Aug 2013 05:08:51 GMT

O.k. Zoloft for everyone. Only kidding. But seriously, no one is trying to pressure Wise Dan's owner and trainer to do anything, eve if that were possible, which I doubt. I certainly do not get that from reading Steve's piece. He is expressing his opinion and it is a valid one at that. I agree with it. Step outside the box and see what Wise Dan can do. I bet he would win.

re: Let's Not Forget the Other Dan

Ranagulzion — Sun, 18 Aug 2013 01:46:09 GMT

Signal,

Did you seriously think that Little Mike is in Wise Dan's league? LM is a very good horse on his best day but he's inconsistent and his Arlington Million performance did nothing to recommend him. Try again my friend. Watch for Successful Dan in the Woodward ...I tell you one thing, if he remains sound he'll be the top older horse on dirt in America.

re: Let's Not Forget the Other Dan

Davids — Sun, 18 Aug 2013 01:36:46 GMT

JerseyBoy and Ranagulzion, I didn't realize that anyone took much notice of Timeform's, and her twin sister, IFHA's ratings of US horses. Moreover, both publications seem so Eurocentric and biased toward European runners

I could never understand how it was possible to rate a dirt horse against a turf horse in the first place. Especially when the horses would never compete against each other for obvious reasons. It is hard enough rating European horses that prefer soft going to fast on the turf, who is better?

I think that is why Steve has been 'contemplating' a Wise Dan dirt race - unless the horses actually run against each other its just subjective speculation.

Would Frankel have beaten Sea Bird?

re: Let's Not Forget the Other Dan

Bethany Loftis — Sat, 17 Aug 2013 23:29:41 GMT

Fastestfilly- you said it best!!!! Ivan has obviously no idea as to who Steve Haskin really is, and certainly has no clue of his contributions to this great sport!

Pedigree Ann- Assault managed to get two AQHA registered foals when he was turned out on the King Ranch, yet sired no thoroughbreds.

Steve- thanks again for all you do as well as your wonderful stories! Wishing Fink and the Dans the best of luck!!!

re: Let's Not Forget the Other Dan

Steve Haskin — Sat, 17 Aug 2013 20:14:09 GMT

Thanks, John, I appreciate that, but it's no sweat. you're always going to get people who read into things what they want to. You said everything perfectly that I would have said to them if I thought it would get through. When you write an opinion piece (and this last one really wasnt much of an opinion piece as much as a historical reference), you have to expect disgreements and an occasioan irrational comment. Did you notice that no one, or hardly anyone, had any desire to comment on Successful Dan, who was the headline and the whole opening part of the column. Anyway, thanks again, but those comments amuse me more than anything else. See you at the Spa.

And Karen, thank you very much for your comments as well. That was very nice of you. Big Red, I appreciate the Charlie Hatton comparison, but no one was or is in Charlie's league as a writer. He was a Rembrandt with a typewriter.

re: Let's Not Forget the Other Dan

JohnNYC — Sat, 17 Aug 2013 18:38:27 GMT

Steve, I implore you to ignore and not waste any energy on the trolls who were desperate enough to critique your commentary. You very eloquently yet directly stated that the door is closed on Wise Dan's aspirations for the BC Classic while respectfully explaining the owner's psyche and pointing out the success of others who took a more daring path. Trolls want only to sling mud and contradict- they are not intelligent or even decent enough to disagree with elan or respect. Your balanced commentary on the half-brothers Dan was thoughtful, informative even to veterans, and appropriately respectful to Mr. Fink. Thanks for your continued prolific efforts!

re: Let's Not Forget the Other Dan

Signal — Sat, 17 Aug 2013 18:00:43 GMT

Some people who pretend to be the expert said something so rediculous

like Wise Dan should go to the Ascot to thumb those Europian.

Wow what a joke!!!

I heard the owner fo Little Mike

already come calling for a match

race with the syper hype HOY.

and Little Mike is here, let's see

if he gets the return call.

re: Let's Not Forget the Other Dan

Big_Red_Always — Sat, 17 Aug 2013 17:16:41 GMT

@TripleCrownKaren: In my opinion, Steve is the equal of, and in someways better than, the legendary Charles Hatton. People who really know the sport's history will understand this compliment. That's why the above piece is so disappointing. The Steve Haskin I've read for many years is better than this article.

@ksweatman9: Ironic you should think of Ruffian in this context. It sure sounded like fun to match the filly against the Derby winner. There were egos to be stroked and money to be made or lost. The horses didn't have a say in the matter -- and the sport has never recovered from the moment when Ruffian's leg shattered. That was the first breakdown of a champion horse on national TV. Yeah, right. Such fun. The saddest thing of all is that the sport didn't learn a thing, so we've witnessed other televised breakdowns in the years since. Puts me in mind more of ancient Roman circuses than the modern USA in 2013.

All Mr. Fink is trying to do is take care of his horses and enjoy them in ways he thinks best. I, for one, applaud him for not feeding the lions.

re: Let's Not Forget the Other Dan

ksweatman9 — Sat, 17 Aug 2013 13:45:05 GMT

Yesterday a bird swooped down in front of my car and my thoughts somehow turned to Ruffian and that fateful moment in time. Sadness swept over me and then I started thinking about the concept of another match race, but who? We can no longer look to Zenyatta and Rachel Alexandra to give us a match made in heaven, so who could pull it off in 2013? Today I read your articles and Little Mike's connections want to take Wise Dan out on a date for two. Ain't that something? Sounds like fun to me. This sport needs a shot of crazy to get it going. Little Mike and Wise Dan, sure. Why not?

re: Let's Not Forget the Other Dan

TripleCrownKaren — Sat, 17 Aug 2013 13:36:21 GMT

OK.....I just HAVE to put in my 2 cents on this particular blog! Number 1....GET OVER IT people....this is STEVE HASKIN'S BLOG! Yes it is meant to provoke thought (assuming you HAVE that capacity) and NO you will not always agree with everything he says, but GOOD LORD! This is not Rocket Science! Steve has probably forgotten more about this sport and it's stars than most of you even KNOW, so bottom line is....he has the knowledge, the years of experience in this business and is......GET THIS.....RESPECTED industry wide!

As for his equine knowledge, I daresay he knows a hell of a lot more than the average race goer and some owners I could mention.

Number 2.....This is meant to prompt discussion and SHARING of various opinions. I fail to see how INSULTING Steve accomplishes anything constructive. If you really don't LIKE what you are seeing you have the right NOT to continue reading it. That's one of the many "freedoms" we have in this country of ours.

As a life long lover of this sport and its "stars" I can appreciate Steve's historical perspective on the sport and it's participants. I would never attempt to assume that my opinion was better or "correct" compared to his......it is afterall an OPINION and everyone HAS one. Just some of us can express it without being disrespectful and insulting.

Sorry to go on Steve, but this just got my back up!

re: Let's Not Forget the Other Dan

Pedigree Ann — Sat, 17 Aug 2013 13:10:21 GMT

Azeri -

Cigar was not a gelding. He was an entire horse who proved infertile when trying to breed. Some other great horses have had that problem - Precisionist got 4 foals from 40+ matings in his first and only crop; Triple Crown winner Assualt never got a single foal, nor did 2yo champion Top Knight.

re: Let's Not Forget the Other Dan

Ranagulzion — Sat, 17 Aug 2013 01:20:22 GMT

JerseyBoy 16 Aug 2013 10:43 AM

Excellent post. I appreciate the Timeform rating perspective very much. Steve should take note that there are other widely acclaimed ways to measure a great race horse apart from the Breeders Cup paradigm.

re: Let's Not Forget the Other Dan

Racingfan — Fri, 16 Aug 2013 21:18:02 GMT

Fastestfilly: Well Said! Thank you! My thoughts as well! I do not appreciate the negativity toward Steve that I have been reading in the comments! If anyone does not like the topic of an article they are free to not read it. And you are correct that expressing an opinion does not diminish the accomplishments or disrespect the connections. Funny that so many are taking offense on the Wise Dan subject but many many people couldn't get enough of knocking Zenyatta and her connections, including saying she was not "great" and did not deserve Horse of the Year. Big Red: didn't really understand your comment but it sounded a bit personal - do you know me?

re: Let's Not Forget the Other Dan

Steve Haskin — Fri, 16 Aug 2013 19:28:31 GMT

Ivan john, surely your comments arent meant to be serious. Please read it over -- "We do need to break down another great horse to appease writers like Steve!" - and see how totally absurd and foolish they sound.

Fastestfilly, thank you very much. your kind words are most appreciated. I dont mind anyone disagreeing with me; that's part of what this forum is all about, as long the comments make sense and sound relatively sane.

re: Let's Not Forget the Other Dan

fastestfilly — Fri, 16 Aug 2013 16:24:13 GMT

Wow. I couldn't resist leaving a comment this time Mr. Haskin, if only to show my support for you and your writing. I try to read everything you write for Bloodhorse because you are one of the few, very few, horseracing writers I enjoy. Your writing is picturesque and heart-felt. You write as one who not only has the eloquence to bring a story to life, but someone with great respect and love for horses and the sport of horseracing. I get what you are saying, and I agree. As fans of the sport, of course we want great horses to strive for the stars, and there should be nothing wrong with saying it (even if we sometimes sound like a broken record!) Expressing that opinion does not in any way diminish the accomplishments of the horse or disrespect the connections. Too many people don't understand that differences of opinion are just that...differences. Heck, every time Zenyatta ran, I thought over and over, why don't they run her against the boys or on turf or anything challenging? Just because they didn't doesn't mean I think less of her or her connections, but I still wish they would have. I don't understand why so many people seem to be taking offense to such thoughts.

Anyway, this is much longer than I normally would write, but I just got so aggravated reading so much intense negative reaction that I had to voice my kudos to you! I read your articles because I'm interested in your opinions, and even when I don't agree with you, I still love an respect your writing. Thank you for another great one!

re: Let's Not Forget the Other Dan

Ivan John — Fri, 16 Aug 2013 15:43:31 GMT

That's why Steve is a writer and not a horseman. Did he ever stop to think they are thinking of the horse and not their egos. Wise Dan may be physically maxed out at 1 1/8 mile, and to push him farther could stain him so bad it could end his career. Maybe the story is more important to Steve than the horse. We do need to break down another great horse to appease writers like Steve! Why not write about the greatest Miler of modern history, Frankel never showed up at the Breeder's Cup because Wise Dan was going to be there.(Now that's a story).

re: Let's Not Forget the Other Dan

Daniel Jividen — Fri, 16 Aug 2013 15:34:45 GMT

There is one aspect of this story that is entirely noncontroversial. Morton Fink's broodmare Lisa Danielle, dam of both Successful Dan and Wise Dan, deserved her Broodmare of the Year award as much as any mare ever has.

re: Let's Not Forget the Other Dan

steve from st louis — Fri, 16 Aug 2013 15:11:12 GMT

There are so many nuances regarding the particular campaigns of racehorses about which the public may have no idea. Second guessing Steve Haskin's take on any throughbred's campaign is a fool's game. The racing literati is there to discuss and publicize the game and opinion is an arrow in any writer's quiver. No applogies are necessary for any opinion.

re: Let's Not Forget the Other Dan

Azeri1 — Fri, 16 Aug 2013 14:44:25 GMT

I respect Mr. Fink and appreciate his cautious nature. I would prefer that he run his geldings with discernment and not push them towards breakdowns. We were really lucky with Cigar and Commentator and other great campaigning geldings. I can name lists of others whose fate wasn't as rosy. The true legacy of the turf horse gets more respect in France and Australia than it does in the US. Even with my preference for caution, I totally understand the enthusiasm and earnest wishes for expanding upon greatness but appreciate Mr. Fink just as he is. His horses aren't named Wise and Successful for no particularly good reason. Here's hoping that Mr. Fink and his cautious nature allow him to enjoy both Dans as retired racers enjoying their well-deserved pastures as grand old men.

re: Let's Not Forget the Other Dan

JerseyBoy — Fri, 16 Aug 2013 14:43:52 GMT

What would Wise Dan gain by running on dirt? I say he would gain nothing at all. This is because I measure the greatness of a horse today, by his chances of getting on the Timeform All-Time Highweights List.

To get on the list a horse has to be ranked at least 135 by Timeform. This is the reason horses such as Zarkava, Goldkiva, Zenyatta, Rachel Alexander and Galileo did not make the list. They were top-class but not great. Who made the list since it was expanded to include North America horses? Cigar, Gentlemen and Ghostzapper.

Wise Dan is currently ranked 134 by Timeform. No US horse is ranked within 3 pounds of him. If he runs on dirt and wins the Classic, he would gain nothing in terms of his Timeform ranking unless he blows the field away, something he could do on grass at weight-for-age.

Here are the top 6 according to Timeform, July 1, 2013:

134 WISE DAN

130 FORT LARNED

129 GAME ON DUDE

128 ANIMAL KINGDOM

128 GROUPIE DOLL

128 POINT OF ENTRY