Tale of Two Darleys and a Kitten

re: Tale of Two Darleys and a Kitten

willracehrs — Wed, 28 Aug 2013 09:19:33 GMT

A very interesting delves in the pedigree of two Travers contenders. To experience playing the game of horse racing with today’s horses or from antiquity, Horse Racing Fantasy at www.horseracegame.com developed by Horse Racing Simulation LLC is the place to be.

re: Tale of Two Darleys and a Kitten

LauraMartin — Wed, 28 Aug 2013 06:40:10 GMT

A good delve in to the pedigree of two Travers contenders, their association to two great horses of yesteryears and the Nerud Farm. Very interesting!

re: Tale of Two Darleys and a Kitten

steve from st louis — Tue, 27 Aug 2013 14:59:31 GMT

Cassandra.Says,I think you missed my point, which is somehow becoming the norm. So sorry.

re: Tale of Two Darleys and a Kitten

Cassandra.Says — Mon, 26 Aug 2013 23:07:43 GMT

Steve from St. Louis:

If a grin is too wildly celebratory for you, you must be older than Lukas.

I believe the next category down is reserved for zombies.

Will Take Charge deserved this one after his horrible luck in the Derby. I'm grinning.

re: Tale of Two Darleys and a Kitten

Cassandra.Says — Mon, 26 Aug 2013 23:00:27 GMT

Dr. Fager was not so great that he should cast his sister Ta Wee into the shadows.

I remember the explanation of her name being published -- it is the native American equivalent of a wolf whistle. A writer for the New Yorker no less -- take that Doc -- wrote of her "Oh, Ta Wee, you pretty girl, if you could cook I'd marry you."

re: Tale of Two Darleys and a Kitten

steve from st louis — Mon, 26 Aug 2013 20:11:17 GMT

Watching Todd Pletcher's chesire cat grin when Capo Bastone upset the King's Bishop rubbed me the wrong way for some reason. He had three runners in the race, including the favorite, Forty Tails. And I know he has a public stable for many different owners. If I were in that position, I think I would temper my excitement because two of my horses just ran up the track. I know he just won a Grade 1 race and it's a fine line running his horses against each other. I could be wrong, but I think his reaction should have been more tempered. Any thoughts?

re: Tale of Two Darleys and a Kitten

Forbidden Apple — Sun, 25 Aug 2013 16:09:39 GMT

I will be the first to admit that Transparent was extremely dull and did not run a step.

Ranagulzion,

Your fuzzy dreams of Horse of the Year just turned into a nightmare. Verrazano is simply the latest hype horse from the Pletcher regime. He looks like the next coming of Violence. This horse has done nothing to even put him in the same conversation as Wise Dan. Time to take your Pletcher blinkers off!

re: Tale of Two Darleys and a Kitten

Coldfacts — Sun, 25 Aug 2013 10:46:22 GMT

Coldfacts 21 Aug 2013 11:40 PM

"Verrazano has not broken 1:50 in his two efforts at 9F. His hype is not support by his record beyond 8.5F."

re: Tale of Two Darleys and a Kitten

Davids — Sat, 24 Aug 2013 22:37:33 GMT

Steve, I thought Orb ran extremely well considering everything (jockey change, etc) and the Travers prepares him well for races later in the year. Arguably, the lack of a pep race may have had an impact but that's racing, you take your chances.

Wonderful to see DWL having a stella year, reminiscent of the 80s.

Lets see, this year: Orb 2 - Verrazano 0; Orb 2 - Palace Malice 1; Orb 3 - Will Take Charge 1. Even more, Orb has not been off the board in any of his races unlike the others mentioned above.

Now, who is the leading 3 year old?

re: Tale of Two Darleys and a Kitten

Slew — Sat, 24 Aug 2013 15:18:44 GMT

A tour de force in the importance of bloodlines, Steve. Awesome blog that still has my brain reeling.

Has Verrazano won at 10f? I don't think so. Love the horse, but have doubts about the distance.

My boy Orb has had a great rest, but heeee's baaack! Unfortunately without the benefit of Joel Rosario. That bode poorly for Judy in Disguise in the Ballarina..just pure tough luck all day. And Orb needs a run just to work out the rust.

Palace Malice could be favored by post time. He has the credentials, and he has big wins.

I'm still pulling for Orb in the Travers. How can I not? I'm finally getting to see him run again. What class!

But, as you point out, there are no SURE things, especially at Saratoga. And there's loads of talent along with strong pedigrees.

re: Tale of Two Darleys and a Kitten

Forbidden Apple — Sat, 24 Aug 2013 04:44:32 GMT

A walk in the park is what Verrazano has had in his last 2 races. Tomorrow he will be facing top competition and true speed. You guys can have him at 2-1 or less. Transparent has natural speed, class, no lasix, and an athletic body that is crying out for the 1 1/4 mile distance. His new glue on shoes are treating him well, look for him to be roaring down the stretch. I have Palace Malice 2nd and Orb 3rd.

re: Tale of Two Darleys and a Kitten

Linda in Texas — Thu, 22 Aug 2013 16:50:46 GMT

Coldfacts so you are going with War Dancer? Yikes, talk about turn of mouth! I sorta tried to get that across in my simpleton post just submitted. I probably would have reworded it had i known your choice. I am in denial here. Agreeing with Coldfacts! :)

Just now reading the comments. I always like to comment before i read those of others. So this pleasantly surprises me.

Coldfacts and Steve agreeing.

Never thought that day would come.

I just like the dams and sires in War Dancer's pedigree and their wins.

Not razzing either Steve or Coldfacts, please know that. Just good kidding and 2 smart men! :)

Linda

re: Tale of Two Darleys and a Kitten

Age of Reason — Thu, 22 Aug 2013 15:45:26 GMT

Add me to the list of Strange Bedfellows who find themselves agreeing with Coldfacts. I don't trust Verrazano at the true classic distance of 10 furlongs. That isn't to say that he won't hit the board in the Travers, and I wouldn't be surprised at all to see him salvage a placing on class alone; keep in mind, Verrazano is his father's son. More Than Ready was a sprinter/miler and King's Bishop winner who managed a 4th in the Derby and 2nd in the Dwyer (to Albert the Great while defeating Commendable and Red Bullet) just on toughness and grit. Maybe it's just because I'm the extreme skeptic type and so despise Bandwagon/Hype horses with a passion, but those types almost never live up. Uncle Mo, anyone? With a side of Fed Biz, and Rydilluc for dessert?

re: Tale of Two Darleys and a Kitten

Coldfacts — Thu, 22 Aug 2013 03:40:18 GMT

Ranagulzion,

"but can you really see him toppling this stellar field?”

Did War Front sire the winner of the UAE Derby and 7th place finisher in the Kentucky Derby? In which position did the More Than Ready sired Verrazano finish in the 10F Kentucky Derby? Did War Front also sire the 3rd place finished in the 10F VA Derby and 9.5F Secretariat? Does War Dancer’s dam hail from the most successful broodmare line in TC history? Has War Dancer previously won at 10F? Did he walk out of the starting gates and was left 20L behind the field and still won handily? The commentator remarked that his victory at Keeenland was impossible.

Is he good enough at this point to defeat the Travers field? Who knows? Only one of his 7 or 8 starts have been on dirt and this is an obvious concern. In the ability department I think he is second to none in the field.

His young sire has been producing some very good turf and dirt horses. The Northern Dancer broodmare line produced the dead heat winners of the 2012 Travers. Palace Malice and Verrazano broodmares also hail from the Northern Dancer broodmare line. However, both failed in their only attempt at 10F. The 12F Belmont walking race that Place Malice won is not an indication that he is effective at 10F in a truly run race. Verrazano has not broken 1:50 in his two efforts at 9F. His hype is not support by his record beyond 8.5F.

Revisit the videos of this colt’s races and you will see there is no quit in him. The more he is asked the more he gives. He will enjoy the distance of the Travers. I think he is worth a gamble as he could turn out to the best of the late bloomers.

re: Tale of Two Darleys and a Kitten

Ranagulzion — Wed, 21 Aug 2013 20:26:27 GMT

Signal,

Do you like Jersey Boy's take on the likely outcome of the Travers? I certainly do ...a walk in the park ...on a dry track.

Lets see you run away and hide after Verrazano smokes 'em. BTW who's your pick for the Travers ...man up and tell us pal ...show us your signal.

re: Tale of Two Darleys and a Kitten

Signal — Wed, 21 Aug 2013 16:45:09 GMT

I founded quite amuse when somebody touted Verazano as the best horse in this universe after he won the Haskell, yeah he's gonna walk over any horses in the Travers and the breeder's cup classic too.

Now all of sudden he thinks we are going to have a horse race in the Traver, no more talk like Verazano won in a romp.

What a joker!!!!

re: Tale of Two Darleys and a Kitten

JerseyBoy — Wed, 21 Aug 2013 16:32:04 GMT

Verrazano drew post 3. If the track is dry, it should be a walk in the park.

re: Tale of Two Darleys and a Kitten

Ranagulzion — Wed, 21 Aug 2013 16:08:06 GMT

Steve & Coldfacts,

This year's renewal must indeed be the mother of all Travers ...War Dancer??? Are you kidding me? An improving colt, yes ...but can you really see him toppling this stellar field?

I'm kinda glad to see these developments because the winner will definitely prove himself to be something special.

I'll bodly predict right now that Verrazano will squander this field and take dead aim on Wise Dan for the 2013 HOTY. After this rout I hope that Todd Pletcher points him to the Breeder's Cup Classic via the Kelso, rather than the Jockey Club Gold Cup. Thats my take on it friends ...you all know by know that I have pretty good foresight (not bragging 'cause I run the risk of eating loads of crow ...and having Coldfacts and my new "blog adversary", Signal, rub salt into my wounds LOL). Enjoy.

re: Tale of Two Darleys and a Kitten

Coldfacts — Wed, 21 Aug 2013 13:49:24 GMT

As clarified in a previous post, the context in which I regarded the Ribot sire line as dismal is connected to 3YOs that have been on the TC Trial.

The most dominant broodmare sires in TC history are those that trace back to Northern Dancer. His sons, grandsons and great grandsons have sire mares that have produced the winners of 22 TC races. The latest being Palace Malice.

The Mr. Prospector sire line has dominated the sire side of the TC chart. His generations of stallions were very dismal in the broodmare siring department. This all changed when the broodmare line secured its 1st Derby winner in Barbaro whose dam sire was Carson City. Barbaro was followed by Mine That Bird whose dam sire was Smart Strike. The 2013 Derby winner Orb has continue the surge as he was produced from an Unbridled mare.

Secretariat was considered a good broodmare sire. However, the record of his broodmares in the TC series is poor with only one victory. The broodmares from the A P Indy and Storm Cat lines have horrible records in the TC as well. The A P Indy line has one and Storm Cat zero. In fairness The Storm Cat and A P Indy broodmare lines have produced runner ups in TC races. These broodmare lines are at least on the board occasionally.

The last serious 3YO produced by a Ribot line broodmare that I can recall is Pleasant Prince whose dam sire was Pleasant Tap. He finished a NS second to Ice Box in the FL Derby. He was nice horse but nothing special. The Ribot line broodmares have been MIA in the Triple Crown series for some time.

The 2013 Travers has number of colts that participated in the TC series. Since Romansh will be running against them, it is in this context that I have cited the dismal record of the Ribot broodmare line.

re: Tale of Two Darleys and a Kitten

Steve Haskin — Wed, 21 Aug 2013 13:09:12 GMT

At least that's one horse you can eliminate. Just looking at him as a potential live longshot who could at the very least pick up a piece of it at a big price.

re: Tale of Two Darleys and a Kitten

Age of Reason — Wed, 21 Aug 2013 12:56:48 GMT

Are my caffeine-deprived eyes fooling me? Did Steve Haskin and Coldfacts just agree, emphatically agree, on how to handicap an upcoming race?

Yeah, it's a cold day here too...

re: Tale of Two Darleys and a Kitten

Steve Haskin — Wed, 21 Aug 2013 04:01:11 GMT

Ranagulzion, I'm going to shock you and say I agree with Coldfacts about War Dancer. I've been following his races closely after his allowance win at Keeneland that has to be seen to be believed. He ran more sideways than straight in the stretch of the American Turf looking for room and closed very fast to be third, finishing right behind Admiral kitten who won the Secretariat Stakes. The Centaur at Indiana downs was too short for him and the winner ran a dynamite race going in 1:34 1/5. He still came home in :23 3/5. And now he's won at 1 1/4 miles and beat very good horses. In his one dirt race, he ran greenly, but galloped out like a monster. I'm looking at him as a longshot pick and to play in the exotics.

re: Tale of Two Darleys and a Kitten

smarie — Wed, 21 Aug 2013 03:32:25 GMT

Racingfan and Linda from Texas, I too share your dismay at the statement made by Ken Ramsey about lesser-quality Thoroughbreds. No, not every horse is a success on the track. But that does not mean that you just "dump" them and forget about them. We are talking about living, breathing animals here, not commodities to dispose of at will.

I remember being very put off by a statement made by Satish Sanan several years ago. He bred The Green Monkey, the Thoroughbred that sold for the highest price ever I believe. After the horse was retired because of injury, Mr. Sanan said that something to the effect that he had bred this horse's brother too, "another dud."

This kind of attitude is just plain wrong IMO. This kind of attitude is what gets kill buyers trucks filled with Thoroughbreds and all other kinds of horses. If you breed them, you should be responsible for them as much as humanly possible. Marylou Whitney comes to mind. She heard of a horse she'd bred that was in danger of going to slaughter and she moved quickly to purchase this horse back and to give this animal a wonderful retirement. This is what racing needs. Statements like Mr. Ramsey's and Mr. Sanan's will turn even more people away from horse racing.

On another note, both Zenyatta and Rachel Alexandra have offspring from Bernardini. I am anxious to see how they progress if they ever make it to the races.

re: Tale of Two Darleys and a Kitten

Coldfacts — Wed, 21 Aug 2013 02:02:36 GMT

JerseyBoy,

I can always count on you to keep me honest.

My views were specific to Triple Crown type horses as I am still in that mode. You will not I specified Risen Star whose broodmare was sires by His Majesty.

Can you mention the number of champion 3YOs in the last 10YRS whose broodmares were sired by Ribot line stallions. By this I mean the sire of the first dam.

I pay very little attention to 2nd and 3rd dam sires. Why? They are never regarded a champion broodmare sires.

I focus primarily on the sires of the dams and the lines from which they were produced. It a bit one sided but that's what I do.

I take a lot heat for my posts because many contributors fail to recognized that they are in most cases restricted to 3YOs participating in the either Triple Crown or mid summer Derbies.

I do not keep a lot of records on stake winning horses if they are not connected to the TC.

I do not expect you to accept my position but the revelation above will help you to understand the context of my post.

re: Tale of Two Darleys and a Kitten

Coldfacts — Wed, 21 Aug 2013 01:36:32 GMT

Ranagulzion,

The dark horse in the Traverse is War Dancer. I have reviewed the video of his only effort on dirt (02/13/2013) and I am convinced he will handle the surface as effectively as he does turf.

In his winning effort in the 10F VA Derby he defeated Bluegrass runner up Charming Kitten and Jack Milton who returned to finish a creditable 3rd in the 9.5F Secretariat.

In his start prior to the VA Derby he finished a close 3rd in the G2 American Turf to Noble Tune and Secretariat winner Admiral Kitten. He experienced traffic problems in the stretch while Noble Tune and Admiral Kitten had clear passage.

War Dancer is May foal who seem to be at the top of his game right now. The good turf course on which the VA Derby was contested is an ideal prep for the Travers. This colt is race horse of the highest caliber and he will enjoy every inch of the Travers distance.