Euros Wise to Stay Home

re: Euros Wise to Stay Home

JoyJackson21 — Fri, 27 Sep 2013 20:44:23 GMT

To The Deacon:

Thank you very much. I appreciate you saying that. Have a great weekend.

re: Euros Wise to Stay Home

JoyJackson21 — Fri, 27 Sep 2013 20:43:00 GMT

To Coldfacts:

Regarding your last two posts on Animal Kingdom: totally true and great points, stated very impressively. They were points I would have posted myself. Animal Kingdom is an awesome thoroughbred horse, especially considering all he had to overcome during his racing career. I very much admire A.K.'s bravery and determination to excel. And I agree with you: a large majority of owners would give their eye teeth to have had even the tiniest chance to own Animal Kingdom seeing that the Dream of All Dreams for 90% or more of thoroughbred owners and trainers in the U.S. is to win the Kentucky Derby. The fact that Animal Kingdom also commandingly won the Dubai World Cup against some of the best thoroughbred horses in training in the WORLD would have just been icing on the cake to them.

BTW - Your points regarding Black Caviar were also well taken. She has overcome some pretty impressive challenges in her career, the fact of which caused her legend and her superstar status to deepen, including the fact that her level of competition was quite high & impressive, she raced on challenging surfaces, she overcame jockey mistakes, and she overcame ASTOUNDING travel logistics which would have totally unnerved and freaked out most other horses.

To the Wise Dan fans: As I've said before, I really like Wise Dan. He's a wonderful horse. I mean no disrespect to him in any way. I would love to see him travel one day to France and have the chance to compete in the Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe - one of the three premiere turf races in the world. For me, it is THE premiere turf race in the world. In a perfect racing world, Wise Dan should be there representing U.S., and he would be competing in the l'Arc de Triomphe if he were allowed to push himself past the one mile performance distance, just as Orfevre was there representing Japan last year. Sure, Orfevre came in second in the race last year, but that doesn't matter in the least. At least he tried, and tried rather heroically, at that. There's no shame in being barely nipped at the wire. He is still considered one of the Top 10 greatest racing superstars in the world because his owners continually stretch his limits and his talents. He's admired by all because his owners keep trying to push his boundaries and challenge his abilities. They are not content with letting Orfevre rest on his well-deserved laurels. They keep trying, even if Orfevre comes in second every once in awhile. They are still proud of him & his accomplishments. And Orfevre still remains a world-wide superstar in the eyes of the world's racing fans. Don't you think Wise Dan deserves that chance as well? I do. Unfortunately, Mr. LoPresti has not given Wise Dan permission to take his turn at bat in such a prestigious long distance race though, to race with an abundance of his true peers. It's really too bad.

re: Euros Wise to Stay Home

Coldfacts — Wed, 25 Sep 2013 03:52:52 GMT

KY VET,

"but question the almighty haskin"

In English and many other languages, proper names and words derived from them are associated with capitalization.

If you are incapable posting the first letter of Mr. Haskin in the proper case, why should your views be taken seriously.

Your deficiencies are overwhelming in numbers and you should consider addressing them before you attempt to participate in these forums.

re: Euros Wise to Stay Home

Coldfacts — Wed, 25 Sep 2013 03:32:43 GMT

Ranagulzion,

You do not appreciate the fact the AK is better than WD so we are clearly at a dead end.

One has taken the greater challenges with success and the other has been beating subs par competition.

If WD floats you boat sail on.

re: Euros Wise to Stay Home

KY VET — Tue, 24 Sep 2013 20:05:20 GMT

again......whoever is on top, it doesnt matter what horse, COLDCUTS the contrarian, will tear down.....but question the almighty haskin....why a maiden isnt on the derby top 10.........talent means nothing.......the color, the month they were foaled, the amount of letters in the horses name, the swan neck,giraffe neck, ewe head shape, these are more important.....

re: Euros Wise to Stay Home

Ranagulzion — Tue, 24 Sep 2013 19:17:03 GMT

Coldfacts 24 Sep 2013 8:24 AM

Your opinion is what it is ...I respect that but the cold facts are the cold facts my friend.

Why bother arguing about what if? If Eskendereya wasn't injured on the eve of the Kentucky Derby 2010 he'd be a triple crown winner for sure and if Union Rags had Johnny V or Edgar Prado riding him in the 2012 Derby perhaps ...he might have won ...and perhaps if Uncle Mo wasn't a sick 3YO in 2012 we wouldn't be arguing about Animal Kingdom ...get it now bro?

re: Euros Wise to Stay Home

Old Old Cat — Tue, 24 Sep 2013 15:13:17 GMT

I think when a racehorse wins a race and sets a new world/track/course record that horse feels a real sense of accomplishment, and doesn't ask how much was the purse money. But then they are just dumb animals. All they know is they ran their best, and beat the rest.

Steve, your undercurrent of horse racing's failure to publicize the champions deserves it's own article.

re: Euros Wise to Stay Home

Coldfacts — Tue, 24 Sep 2013 12:24:17 GMT

Ranagulzion,

You have mounted a very strong defense for Wise Dan and I cannot dispute the cold facts you have presented in same.

Animal Kingdom had an injury plagues career. Despite this I regard his 12 race career as superseding that of Wise Dan’s 25 and counting. There is a world of difference between what was achieve in his 12 and the Dan’s 25 to date.

Below is an interesting comparison:

Animal Kingdom finished 6th in the Belmont contested on 06/06/2011 and was not seen for the rest of the year. Wise Dan’s last start in June 2011 was on the 10th in an Allowance race in which he finished 4th. WD made 5 additional starts between 06/10/2011 and December 2011. He won 4 and finished 4th in the Shadwell Mile won by Gio Ponti. Between June 10th 2011 to December 2011 AK made zero starts. It should be noted Wise Dan bypassed the Breeder Cup Turf Mile in 2011.

In the 16 months between June 10th, 2011 and November 2012 Wise Dan made 9 starts preceding the BC Turf Mile compared to Animal Kingdom’s 1. Who do you think would have been the fitter of the two?

In the BC Turf Mile AK made his 1st start against older horse in a graded race in the US and it just happened to be at highest level on the biggest race day. It should be noted that Wise Dan finished 6th in his 1st G1 attempt against older. While he contested three (G2), one (G3) and four (G1) in the 9 races before the 2012 BC Mile, AK’s contested an optional claim allowance.

AK with a troubled trip and short of fitness was only beaten by 1–2 lengths in a NTR. In all honesty, do you believe AK should have gotten that close with his resume of one race in 16 months?

AK was a champion 3YO who took on the ultimate test for any thoroughbred i.e., the Triple Crown. This is a series of races covering 31.5F in 5 weeks. The enormity of the TC cannot and should not be dismissed as only 11 horses have won the 3 races.

He left the shored of the US with only 3 starts in 20 months to contest and win the world’s richest at 10F.

AK did not go through G2 & G3 ranks like the fabulous Wise Dan who was in hiding when Gio Ponti was ruling the roost.

If not for Animal Kingdom’s injury plagued career we would not be having this exchange regarding who is better.

re: Euros Wise to Stay Home

Ranagulzion — Mon, 23 Sep 2013 21:57:50 GMT

Coldfacts my friend,

You quite evidently endorse Miguel Bonifaz 2 20 Sep 2013 10:41 PM post. Well, have you done what I suggested i.e. compared the race records of the two horses? If/when you've done so, can you tell us how many wins out of how many starts AK has versus WD's record in graded stakes (not to mention number of Grade 1 victories)?

No one is here trying to detract from AK's Kentucky Derby and Dubai World Cup victories but his overall record pales against WD's. Okay, let me tell you: AK had 5 wins(2 Grade 1's) from 12 starts w/stakes earned $8.4M. WD has 15 wins(6 Grade 1's) from 25 starts for $5M and counting, with 3 track records to embelish his glowing accomplishments.

Your statements about the brilliant Quality Road and two-time HOTY, Curlin, are irrelevant, as are the questions you pose about whether Wise Dan ran without lasix or outside America (Man O War, Secretariat, Kelso, Dr Fager, Rahel Alexandra, Zenyatta etc never ran outside Norh America and Frankel, Brigadier Gerard, Sea Bird, Nijinsky, Allez france and Zarkava never ran outside Europe).

The races that you pose your rhetorical question about: whether Wise Dan has won ...are ridicoulous because he never competed in thse races. In fact in his only head to head meeting with Animal Kingdom, Wise Dan won decisively ina track record, missing the world record for the mile on turf by 0.37 seconds, bar all the mumble jumble about AK's rough trip ...get over it pal. You mention stakes winnings ... well, AK is retired but WD is still piling on the grade 1 stakes earnings. It will be interesting to see his bank roll when he is retired.

I think that you are holding a losing ticket here my friend. Anyway, I appreciate the opportunity you gave to expose the mismatch in the comparison.

I am predicting that next year you'll be referig to Wise Dan as a two-time HOTY as he widens the gap between himself and AK (has the latter ever won HOTY ...LOL).

re: Euros Wise to Stay Home

Pedigree Ann — Mon, 23 Sep 2013 15:07:51 GMT

Ranagulzion -

Obviously slammed Za Approval by over 3 lengths in the Shoemaker Mile and was pulling away at the finish. Last year he was winning only by noses and half-lengths in these sorts of races. He is a different animal this year.

re: Euros Wise to Stay Home

Coldfacts — Mon, 23 Sep 2013 14:06:52 GMT

Ranagulzion:

You have exposed yourself to a litany of counter questions with your 22 Sep, 2013 post. A few are listed below and in the interest of full disclosure the answers have been provided.

“Did Animal Kingdom ever set or equal any track or stakes record?”

Unfortunately no! Quality Road set 3 NTRs and I guess he was a wonder horse on the track like Wise Dan.

Did two times HOY Curlin ever set or equal any track or stakes record?

Unfortunately no!

Did Wise Dan win the most prestigious race for 3YOs?

Unfortunately no!

Did Wise Dan win the richest race in the world?

Unfortunately no!

Has Wise Dan ever won a race without Lasix?

Unfortunately no!

Has Wise Dan ever won a race outside North America?

Unfortunately no!

How many connections would exchange a track record victory for a win in the Kentucky Derby?

All!

How many connections would exchange a track record victory for a 1st place purse of $5.6M?

All!

From the above questions and answers, you should now realize your point regarding Wise Dan’s tack records is lukewarm at best.

A new track or stakes record is pale in comparison to many achievements.

re: Euros Wise to Stay Home

Ranagulzion — Sun, 22 Sep 2013 21:11:50 GMT

Miguel Bonifaz 2 20 Sep 2013 10:41 PM

Regarding your comparison of AK with Wise Dan, I forgot to mention track records. Did Animal Kingdom ever set or equal any track or stakes record ...can you tell us? Wise Dan has done so on at least three occassions.

You owe WD an apology.

re: Euros Wise to Stay Home

Ranagulzion — Sun, 22 Sep 2013 19:50:38 GMT

Miguel Bonifaz 2 20 Sep 2013 10:41 PM

You're entitled to your opinion, no doubt but you're exposing ignorance by your comparison of AK and WD. Look at their performance statistics, then look at who they beat, then look at who beat them and you might have a change of mind.

re: Euros Wise to Stay Home

Coldfacts — Sun, 22 Sep 2013 15:17:38 GMT

Your dislike for me knows no bounds. I have often tried to determine whether it exceeds that of the KY VET. Both of you have spared no effort to discredit my views/positions and project me a self-serving idiot.

Like most contributors I share my views and I am prepared to defend my positions with what I consider to pertinent facts. While I welcome opposing views, I find it disturbing that so many see it necessary to go to great lengths to malign others.

I have repeatedly ascribe to you academic dominion as I did not make it past primary school. Certainly, I am not one that your time is best spent engaging in either a direct or indirect fashion. There are far more learned contributors who are more worthy of your time, intellect and insightful inputs.

Your love for hate equates to negative entry. You are far too resourceful to be incapable of correcting this character flaw.

One Love!

re: Euros Wise to Stay Home

Arthur Wellesley — Sun, 22 Sep 2013 14:32:16 GMT

Should Wise Dan carry on undefeated this year then are we to think that there could be a chance at a Royal Ascot tilt? Or did Animal Kingdom's performance ruin any chance of that? If Wise Dan did take on the world, on the biggest stage, and come out on top, in say the Queen Anne for instance, then he would be assured a place in history.

re: Euros Wise to Stay Home

Paula Higgins — Sun, 22 Sep 2013 05:12:02 GMT

ITA Jersey Boy. Moonlight Cloud is a very good horse and after a very tough trip, Black Caviar did well to hang on to win. Also, in my post above, the sentence should read "That really irritated me." I really do need to edit my posts.

re: Euros Wise to Stay Home

Paula Higgins — Sat, 21 Sep 2013 21:14:50 GMT

Coldfacts, thank you for your reply. I am aware of Luke's problematic ride with Black Caviar. He stopped riding, literally. Even so, the trip from Australia had its effect on Black Caviar. The trip is hellatious from Australia, even on a horse like Black Caviar. I think the fact that she won, considering the trip, new track, bad ride etc., was amazing. I am one of her biggest fans. Her connections did one of the bravest things I have ever seen in horse racing (along with Zenyatta's connections and her run against the boys x 2 and Rachel's races against the boys). So you are preaching to the choir. When Black Caviar's connections were deciding whether to bring her to Britain or not, the British writers were going on and on about how much better Frankel was than Black Caviar. That really me. I understand that when the Euros come here they may be at a disadvantage, as U.S. horses would be if we ran there. But the Euros tend to think their horses are better i.e. "Frankel the greatest horse of all time" designation that the Brits/Timeform have awarded him. Yes, he is definitely one of the greats, but he is not Secretariat and he is not Ribot for that matter. Secretariat ran on every surface, at many distances, against tough competition and set records that still stand. There are also others I would place above Frankel that ran in the U.S. but I won't go there for now. The one thing that the Brits do in fact do better than we do, is breed for stamina and soundness.

re: Euros Wise to Stay Home

JerseyBoy — Sat, 21 Sep 2013 18:53:42 GMT

Paula Higgins:

I find more of the comments made in an attempt to detract from Wise Dan beyond laughable.

Consider the following statement about Moonlight Cloud:

“Her best distance appears to be 7F”.

Well she just beat the best milers in Europe at a mile. What does that say about the milers and what does that say about the sprinters she beat or almost beat at 6 furlongs? This Moonlight Cloud must be something.

By the way, here is the Racing Post comment about the win Black Caviar had over Moonlight Cloud. Not my comment, the comment of the people who do this for a living and do not have an axe to grind:

“Chased leading pair, went 2nd 2f out, ridden to lead over 1f out, pushed along hands and heels and in command inside final furlong, pressed and rider stopped riding towards finish, hard pressed and pushed along again close home, held on”. Racing Post notes.

I will make no more comment on this topic. Have a nice weekend.

re: Euros Wise to Stay Home

Vince — Sat, 21 Sep 2013 17:44:17 GMT

well said coldfacts. the difficulty of winning on another continent is vastly underestimated, as evidenced by animal kingdom's woeful showing at ascot on an undulating straight mile. however, I do think wise dan is different class. and i would love to see him come to ascot, either in june or october. british racing fans are very welcoming and appreciate good horses wherever they come from. just ask wesley ward.

re: Euros Wise to Stay Home

Windolin — Sat, 21 Sep 2013 14:37:17 GMT

Lets not leave Lisa Danielle out of the mix here. All the credit does not go the stallion.

re: Euros Wise to Stay Home

Coldfacts — Sat, 21 Sep 2013 13:09:38 GMT

Paula Higgins,

If not for an almost catastrophic error in judgment by her rider, Black Caviar would have won handily Diamond Jubilee Stakes (G1)but instead scrambled home by a NS.

If you revisit the video you will see her rider easing up before the winning post. He later started that he misjudged it.

There is a significant difference between competing on flat hard tracks as opposed to those soft to good courses that gradually elevate as the distance gets longer.

What Mr. Jerseyboy failed to post is the fact that of Moonlight 17 starts only two were at 6F and both were losing efforts. Of her 10 victories 5 were at 7F, 3 at 6 1/2F and 2 at a mile. Her best distance appears to be 7F.

Lost in Black Caviar’s narrow margin of victory is the fact that she travelled anywhere between 9,000 and 10,600 miles to compete on an unfamiliar track and softer ground than which she is accustom. True champion overcome these challenges and she did.

The major concern for Wise Dan‘s connection would be neither the travel to distance nor the course configuration but how would he perform without Lasix. Let’s assume his performance would not be impacted by absence of Lasix. Do you believe he would decimate Europe’s best miler the way he has been beating the American opposition like rented mules?

The Euro’s visit our shores from 3,000 miles or more and different time zone to compete on our flat and hard tracks. Many have Lasix administered for the first time and those who do not add the drug compete at a disadvantage.

Despite of the challenges they face they have done extremely well over the years. When we defeat them we should never beat our chest and insult them as their handicaps, are significantly heavier than ours.

re: Euros Wise to Stay Home

Miguel Bonifaz 2 — Sat, 21 Sep 2013 02:41:51 GMT

No disrespect to Wise Dan, but Animal Kingdom was a much better horse by all means on hand.

re: Euros Wise to Stay Home

Vince — Fri, 20 Sep 2013 21:31:21 GMT

blimey, sticking your neck out there steve. only kidding. wise dan deserves every praise he gets. his performances are pure joy to watch. the euro milers are much of a muchness, perhaps they are all good. but that seems pretty far fetched. I don't think there is any barathea in there like there was with lure.

strange with wise dan's breeding. by wiseman's ferry who raced for aiden o' brien in ireland, not great either. he was sold back to the us where he raced over longer distances and won a G3 on dirt. what is the score with wiseman's ferry in the us? has he had much success?

back to the race. euros no chance, despite some blue-blooded breeding. a poor bunch this year over a mile, and even a good or great bunch would struggle to get close to wise dan. steve, a blog on the potentially best arc ever would be appreciated. what a race that might be.

re: Euros Wise to Stay Home

Paula Higgins — Fri, 20 Sep 2013 20:02:28 GMT

JerseyBoy, good points. Black Caviar won over Moonlight Cloud by a nostril only. This is not to disparage Black Caviar at all. To do what she did after flying in from down under/Australia was amazing. But as you said, Moonlight Cloud is one very good horse and I think Wise Dan would dust her. For those of you who don't think Wise Dan could have made a dent in Frankel's win streak, I think you are wrong. The potential was/is there. His Woodbine Mile was proof of that at 1:31.3.

re: Euros Wise to Stay Home

Signal — Fri, 20 Sep 2013 19:43:16 GMT

JersyBoy,

Thank you for mention the most important turf race in the world

Prix de l'Arc de triomph, but I think you are going to have a tough time convince some people

with blinkers in here that any race outside U.S. will be an important one.

Some of these self proclaim expert even suggest to me in some blog that " by the end of this yesr Successful Dan will be the best older horse in America."

I will be ready for the biggest race of the year on turf to see who will be the best turf horse of the year 2013.

don't forget the list of the horses who will run in the Melbourn cup is out, check it out.