Palace Malice Should be Admired

re: Palace Malice Should be Admired

Alysheba4ever — Wed, 16 Oct 2013 23:42:47 GMT

For those of you who keep accusing Dr. Hansen of selling his namesake to South Korea well he did no such thing, he sold Hansen to Coolmore's Ashford Stud in Kentucky and they have turned around and sold him to South Korea. He said in the article on this sale that he was upset about the sale.

re: Palace Malice Should be Admired

mz — Fri, 11 Oct 2013 15:53:10 GMT

Re: my 11:29 pm posting last night: Ack! I mis-typed!! It should have read: "Americans are so afraid of running females against MALES" Otherwise, makes no sense -- and I keep trying so hard not to type like a Republican.

(Anyways, my excuse is that this is what happens when you have to get up at gawdawful in the morning to take your mother in for cataract surgery and then your body tells you that you should later still keep your usual vampire hours notwithstanding.)

----

Anyone know yet which BC race My Conquestadory will be running in?

re: Palace Malice Should be Admired

Steve Haskin — Fri, 11 Oct 2013 15:49:48 GMT

Time to settle down, folks.

re: Palace Malice Should be Admired

Pedigree Ann — Fri, 11 Oct 2013 14:54:47 GMT

What is wrong with Orb? Could be he is going through a growth spurt or something. Three-yos are not fully grown - horses aren't mature until they are 5 or more. I have even seen a 6yo sport-bred mare (TB/Hungarian) who still looked gangly like a youngster. Look at Mucho Macho Man - a late foal, he has always been behind the curve a bit with his contemporaries.

re: Palace Malice Should be Admired

Signal — Fri, 11 Oct 2013 14:05:10 GMT

Rusty,

That is what you get when you response to a nonsense self proclaim expert, not worth it.

Please post your knowledgeble comments we like to read.

Thanks

re: Palace Malice Should be Admired

Coldfacts — Fri, 11 Oct 2013 13:05:18 GMT

Paula,

“A rational man would NEVER have made that suggestion, or some of those comments about Zenyatta's race either”

I was not trying to be offensive and probably could have used less impacting words to communicate my displeasure at what can clearly be regarded as an over the top and emotionally driven statement.

I do not recall making any negative statements regarding Zenyatta. I remain a fan of the brilliant mare but will neither be fanatical nor irrational regarding her .

Mr. Sheriff’s quote - "If they raced each other another 9 times, she would have won."

“It was his opinion and one which I and many others share”

I recognized that you were in agreement with quote then and now.

I outlined in my post why I considered the hypothetical a stretch. I have provided some cold facts, reasonable assumptions and an all important question.

Would a 7YO Zenyatta be entered in 9 races at various tracks to compete against Blame?

During her career she left CA three times. She twice won the Apple Blossom in Arkansas and she lost the BCC in Kentucky. It is unlikely that Blame would travel to CA and consequently a 9 race encounter would be on his coast and on dirt.

I have no problems with hypotheticals that do not equate to building castles in the sky. However, I find ridiculous quotes from professionals and knowledgeable folks disturbing. This is due to the fact that there are others who will endorse them and become part of the nonsense.

I would advise the valuable contributor to choose the quotes you endorse wisely.

re: Palace Malice Should be Admired

ksweatman9 — Fri, 11 Oct 2013 10:03:48 GMT

Paula, Zenyatta lost to Blame for the same reason Man O' War lost to Upset and Secretariat lost to Onion. The racing Gods just wanted to prove these great horses were flesh and blood, besides, Pegasus was envious. They wanted to appease him.

re: Palace Malice Should be Admired

ksweatman9 — Fri, 11 Oct 2013 09:50:00 GMT

Coldfacts, I hate it when ANY of our horses are exiled to foreign soil. Some countries I find harder to swallow than others. I know a little more than I'd like to about how certain cultures treat and view animals. I could write about the horrors of accepted animal abuse in some of these countries but it would not fit in a post. China, worst offender, Korea right up there with them. I don't expect you to understand. I just didn't think the doctor would part with his namesake so easily. Oh what am I talking about, some people would sell their own mother if the price was right. I hope and pray Hansen is well cared for and not mistreated while he's alive. If he proves a good sire, he'll be around awhile and I won't speculate how he'll meet his fate in the end. I'm sad about it and profoundly disappointed. I can't help how I feel.

re: Palace Malice Should be Admired

mz — Fri, 11 Oct 2013 03:29:10 GMT

Can I agree with the rating of Princess of Sylmar as the top 3YO this year? Consistent and classy. I just hope they decide to go to the BC.

Speaking of which, I have always admired the Euros for not being afraid to run fillies and mares -- even 3YO fillies -- in the Arc. Same with the Australians and their big races. And look at how successful they've been.

Does anybody think we will ever see a great 3YO filly in the BC Classic? Americans are so afraid of running females against mares.

And congratulations to the BC head honchos who finally figured out that it was the DISTAFF and not the "Ladies" Classic. Makes me think they still talk about Chairladies and Manageresses and probably even Lawyerettes or Doctorettes.

( And no, I am not getting sucked into the maw of the Hurricane Zenyatta controversy again -- although I must commend her connections for choosing the Classic. )

re: Palace Malice Should be Admired

Alex'sBigFan — Fri, 11 Oct 2013 03:24:58 GMT

I like Palace Malice and admire him and his trainer. Is he another Curlin, man I don't think so.

I'm slightly disappointed in the 3 yr. olds, no consistency other than maybe Will Take Charge. Let's see what they do in the BC races. I think G.O.D., Paynter, and Mucho Macho Man, who has really become a man, have the edge over the 3 yr. olds in the BCC so far. It remains to be seen though. G.O.D. wins BCC, gets HOY????? Not written in stone yet.

And what is up with Orb? He wins the Derby and can win nothing else? Was it a fluke? Or is Orb caught in the same vortex of a downward spiral as Garret Gomez appears to be? I hope they both straighten out, two good ones I would like to see come back to form. Has Shug given us any answers about Orb?

And holy jumping bluetailed catfish, Batman. Wait a minute, I missed something. Hansen was sold to Korea? Wait, did or did not Dr. Hansen swear that Hansen would remain in America about the time of IHA's selling or did I dream that up? I agree thoroughly with ksweatman on that.

re: Palace Malice Should be Admired

Paula Higgins — Fri, 11 Oct 2013 02:37:35 GMT

Uh Coldfacts, I will decide what I reference in a post, not you. A rational man would NEVER have made that suggestion, or some of those comments about Zenyatta's race either. So there goes your theory about being rational. Secondly, when John Shirreffs made that statement it was quite a while after the race. It was not an emotionally driven comment at all. John Shirreffs does not make nonsensical comments. He is a very rational man, an ex-Marine who served in Vietnam, and he is known for being calm, rational, intelligent and reasonable. It was his opinion and one which I and many others share. Just because you don't, doesn't mean you are more rational than the rest of us.

As for your post above about Zenyatta, you can't see the forest for the trees. Yes, she got mud in her face early on and then more mud once she joined the group. That was not the norm for her since she usually raced on synthetics and when she did race against the girls on dirt x 2, she flew by them quickly because they were small groups. She wasn't behind them long enough to get plastered with mud.

The one thing Zenyatta did not have in that race Mr. Rational Thought was luck. I don't know where you got that idea. She had problem after problem and in spite of it all, she flew by those colts with the exception of one. That is not about good luck or bad luck, but about an otherworldly talent seen in very few horses in history. The colt's high cruising speed was never a factor. She made the ground up quickly just like she always did. Blame had the advantage of running at CD before and yes, that is an advantage for any horse to run on familiar tracks. It was his advantage that day. He also had a very smooth trip on the inside. She had to go wide and weave through traffic i.e. Quality Road. She normally spotted one group of horses and she was spotting two in this particular race. More than one racing expert believed she miscalculated where the wire was due to the two groups, unfamiliar track and possibly the lights. Blame is a very good horse, a tough little guy and he hung in there. But he also got lucky. When you win against a horse like Zenyatta, by all of half a head, you are one very lucky horse.

Slew, I felt bad when it appeared she was looking back at the winner's circle too. Mario said he was sure that she didn't understand why she wasn't going to there. But the crowd gave her huge applause when she came back to the stands. Blame is supposed to be a very sweet horse and he did win. I felt bad that he didn't get more of an acknowledgement from the crowd. He deserved a better response and so did his connections.

re: Palace Malice Should be Admired

Coldfacts — Thu, 10 Oct 2013 21:04:45 GMT

I have repeatedly labeled some statement posted by contributors over the top and emotionally driven. There are those who take offense to their statements being so labeled. But what option does a rational thinker have?

Paula Higgins cited in a recent post that John Sherriff the trainer of Zenyatta, issue a quote after her loss to Blame in the BCC that was as follows:

"If they raced each other another 9 times, she would have won."

Assuming Paula is accurate, the quote is classic example of emotions driven, ridiculous hypothetical.

Zenyata was 6YOs when she lost to Blame. Let’s assume they both continued their careers in 2011. Zenyatta would be 7YO and Blame 5YO.

Which 9 races would Blame contest that Zenyatta would also be entered?

Assuming Blame enter the Don Handicap, The Jockey Club Gold Cup, Pimlico Special, Whitney, Woodward, Steven Foster. Which of those would Zenyatta leave CA and enter? Would she win or finish ahead of Blame in all. That’s only six G1 races.

Include three G2 to bring the total to nine. Would Zenyatta leave CA nine times to compete against Blame.

The quote was emotionally driven and without merit and certainly does not warrant be referenced.

re: Palace Malice Should be Admired

JerseyBoy — Thu, 10 Oct 2013 19:43:30 GMT

Pedigree Ann:

You have it dead right.

This is what the trainer said about Moonlight Cloud:

“She ran badly at the Breeders' Cup last year, it's two turns. We're not that keen on taking her there.

It is one turn in Hong Kong, which is better for her."Bloodstock.com 10/8/13

re: Palace Malice Should be Admired

Ranagulzion — Thu, 10 Oct 2013 18:03:39 GMT

Rusty Weisner 10 Oct 2013 7:39 AM

That post was a sucker punch ...i thought we were buddys (LOL). Anyway if you want to gang up with jay jay and rumble, I'm game.

I'm sorry to hurt your feelings about Palace Malice but I had to make reference to the manner of his Belmont victory to drive home my point to jay jay who also happens to be a Palace Malice fan.

You see Rusty, the game isn't only about winning the gamble ...there are other aspects to the SPORT my friend. When you know the game well enough the money falls into place, and besides there are other blogs and websites that focus specifically on that aspect. I happen to enjoy spotting the equine stars and calling them BEFORE everyone is on their wagon and I've done that many times over the years of posting on here. Therefore dont blame me for touting the elite runners when their odds have fallen because sundry waggonist have gotten on board ...when you cant beat the favourites, there's always the exotics and I've successfully called some good exactors in the past.

Please understand to point of my argument with jay jay about Union Rags. Anyway I do get your gambling perspective. Peace.

re: Palace Malice Should be Admired

Slew — Thu, 10 Oct 2013 16:37:21 GMT

I'll add one more facet to Paula Higgins post about Zen. On the wet, cuppy track, Zen was hit in the eyeball by a clod of mud early in the race, and dropped farther back than usual...causing her to have to make up even more ground.

Coldfacts, if a person can't get emotional about these racehorses, what's the point of following them and blogging about them? You seem quite emotionally attached to Orb yourself.

And face it everyone...it's time to give Blame credit for his win. Johnny V. positioned him just right, and Blame beat the best..(but only by half a step.)

My most heart-wrenching moment in that BCC came when Zen, on her way back to the barn, amid her cheering fans, stopped...and stared from afar at Blame in the winner's circle...seeming to wonder why She wasn't the one there. (Yes, I anthropomorphise..

..and I talk to my cat too.)

re: Palace Malice Should be Admired

Pedigree Ann — Thu, 10 Oct 2013 14:11:45 GMT

Re: Moonlight Cloud not coming

The grass course at SA and other 8f tracks is a 7f bull-ring, with a home-straight of barely 1.5f. Most Euro milers are used to either straight mile courses or ones with a single bend and a 3-4f home straight. The tight turns inhibit their stride, then they don't have time to fully wind up their late run. Not true for every Euro, but for too many of them, US turf tracks are a major adjustment they can't make quickly enough for one race.

re: Palace Malice Should be Admired

Coldfacts — Thu, 10 Oct 2013 13:29:09 GMT

Ranagulzion,

POSTED - 07 Oct 2013 2:27 PM

COLDFACTS,

“Your assessment of Silver Max's chances against Wise Dan was spot on. At least you could have told us that it was going to rain heavily and that the race would be switched to Polytrack (LOL)”

Well, I must request your forgiveness for assuming that there were either hidden or indirect excuses contained in the above.

Whereas The Dan was battling the elements and a surface on which he had been successful on 5 occasions, Silver Max was trying to win his 1st G1 on an unfamiliar surface.

He was trying to achieve this against a perceived unbeatable opponent that had beaten him on two previous occasions like rented mule.

I contend the elements and surface change were the least of Silver Max’s challenges. The fact that he defeated WD at level weights and at a major disadvantage, suggests The Dan will be hard pressed to reverse positions in the BCM.

There are some cold facts that suggest you should be looking elsewhere for the 2013 BCM winner.

Consecutive winners:

Miesque - 3YO & 4YO

Lure - 3YO & 4YO

Goldikova - 3YO, 4YO & 5YO

The 5YO to 6YO sequence is not in play. The BCM will be The Dan’s 27th start. There are some 4YOs and 5YOs with much fresher legs.

re: Palace Malice Should be Admired

JerseyBoy — Thu, 10 Oct 2013 13:04:21 GMT

Re Moonlight Cloud:

“ Moonlight Cloud is a possible runner at Hong Kong's international meeting in December but a visit to America's Breeders' Cup next month does not seem on the cards. That meeting produced the filly's only defeat in the past year and Head said he was "not that keen" on a second attempt”.

The Guardian Oct 7.

re: Palace Malice Should be Admired

Coldfacts — Thu, 10 Oct 2013 12:54:26 GMT

ksweatman9,

Why the heartbreak? Were you heartbroken when the fastest son of Mr. Prospector was sold to South American interest. Edubia Is the sire of the 2012 Breeders Cup Classic winner Fort Larned.

Some thoroughbreds that have influenced the Breeding Industry in the US were sold to American interest. Did the folks I Europe complain?

Its a business for most owners/breeders. Thoroughbred ownership has ruined many as revenue inflows did not match outflows. It is wise for Owners/Breeder to capitalize on profitable deals as both parties are involved in a high risk business.

The US has an oversupply of stallions.

re: Palace Malice Should be Admired

JerseyBoy — Thu, 10 Oct 2013 12:35:45 GMT

I have never considered a horse's age when placing a bet on a horse.

I only consider relevant factors.

I certainly do not need advice from someone who once touted a 4yo to win the Kentucky Derby.

re: Palace Malice Should be Admired

JerseyBoy — Thu, 10 Oct 2013 12:18:47 GMT

"It is the type of emotions that promote a refusal to see consistent with self-imposed blindness".

Here is a perfect example of your statement:

“Mr. Gomez has chosen to take the ride on Place Malice(sic) who is returning from a short recovery period and who will be contesting a race on a surface over which he is unproven.

Mr. Gomez is the regular rider for Footbridge who like Palace Malice has only a maiden victory to his credit. However, he enters the Bluegrass off a victory, at full rest and with proven synthetic surface pedigree.

Delhomme contested the Rebel off a very long rest but on a familiar surface. He finished last. Palace Malice will be returning from short rest to contest a race on an unfamiliar surface. Add the fact that his trainer does not have a stellar record with short rest horses, it is quite likely that Delhomme will be joined by Place Malice(sic) just ahead of the medical emergency vehicle.

What was Mr. Gomez thinking?”

Coldfacts 11 Apr 2013 10:28 AM

Palace Malice, at 9-2, was second in that race, the Blue Grass at Keeneland. He is now a Classic winner.

Footbridge, at 23-1, finished last beaten 23 lengths. He has not raced since.

It is my money. I've got loads of it. I will do exactly as I said.

re: Palace Malice Should be Admired

Coldfacts — Thu, 10 Oct 2013 12:08:39 GMT

Paula Higgins,

A very insightful post regarding the collective reasons for Zenytta’s loss!

“She was racing under the lights for the first time and on an unfamiliar surface”

Almost the entire field was racing under the lights for the first time. Zenyatta won the G1 Apple Blossom twice. That race is contested on dirt. The surface at OK Park was unfamiliar to her when she recorded her fist win on dirt.

“This was not a typical race for her at all.”

Is there such a race? I contend no.

“She was further back than she had ever been for the first half.”

She was not in a race against over matched females that were being saved to repel he late kick. She was in a race with colts/geldings with high cruising speed and the ability to accelerate in the last two furlongs.

“Everyone, including her connections, knew she was having an issue with either the surface or the dirt in her face or both “

Paula the above does not compute. If she was so far behind the field how was she taking dirt in in face? The surface was not prepared to suit any particular horse. They all had to run on it.

“None of that was normal for her”

Are you implying that conditions were normal for the other runners?

“This was Blame's home court.”

Blame made 5 starts at CD and won 4. Zenyatta made 6 starts at SA and won all. She won the BCC at SA Park to the jubilation of her many fans. There was not suggestion then that she had home court advantage and was familiar with the Synthetic surface.

The horses that occupied the board with her had the following Synthetic Track records- Gio Ponti - 2, Twice Over – 0 and Summer Bird – 0. Zenyatta made 11 starts on Synthetic Tracks prior to her BCC victory.

“He was a very talented horse, but he was no Zenyatta.”

Blame contested races at 7 different tracks in his 13 starts and won 9 times. Zenyatta contested races at 5 tracks in her 21 starts and won 20. She had 8 more starts and 11 more wins. The only cold fact tht matters is he allowed her weight and defeated her. He was better on the day.

“He was very lucky.”

The horses that Zenyatta finished ahead were therefore unlucky. A top rated 4YO male defeats an aging 6YO mare and he is lucky. What will they think of next?

"If they raced each other another 9 times, she would have won."

A clearly emotionally driven statement! She could not catch Blame at 10F at CD. Was she prepared to follow him around to various dirt tracks to contest the hypothetical 9 additional encounters?

This is the type of nonsense that drives rational thinker crazy.

re: Palace Malice Should be Admired

Rusty Weisner — Thu, 10 Oct 2013 11:39:46 GMT

Ranagulzion,

"Tell me what kind of horse Palace Malice is, after staggering home in his Belmont victory in a slower time, albeit well clear of his comparitively weaker opposition?"

It's hard for me to be diplomatic. You need to acquaint yourself with a fundamental aspect of handicapping, pace. Palace Malice staggered home in the Derby, too, as did Oxbow. Yet they were excellent, obvious bets in the Preakness and Belmont, respectively. Palace Malice again staggered home in the Belmont, yet was a cinch in the Jim Dandy.

Examine why. To address your specific mention of Belmont, the pace was insane and neither Palace Malice and Oxbow should have been expected to hold on for the place, much less win. Just look at the splits for 6f and a mile. If you don't want to bother to do that, just watch the race again or read the coverage of the race, where it's no secret that the pace was taxing (and second fastest in race history, I believe).

I thought the game here was to win money on horses. With your comments over the years you've behaved as if the goal was to seize the mantle of Number One Fan for a series of high-profile favorites, usually Pletcher chalk. It's like reading a more literate Draynay. Few care that you can shout loudest about how great Wise Dan is; that doesn't gain you any credibility, much less money. That's bad enough, but when you play cheerleader for a clearly vulnerable Verrazano in the Travers, that should be embarrassing, and a cause for introspection, as is crowing about getting Union Rags at 5/2 in the Belmont after losing it all on his Derby fiasco.

re: Palace Malice Should be Admired

Coldfacts — Thu, 10 Oct 2013 01:35:14 GMT

"If Wise Dan runs in the Breeders' Cup Mile and is drawn in post 1-6, and starts at more the 2-1, I will lay the bank on him no matter whom else enters”

The ages of the 29 winners BC Mile (Turf) are summarized below:

3YOs – 8

4YOs – 12

5YOs – 5

6YOs – 3

7YOs – 1

I was too lazy to research the number of 6YOs that have entered the 29 races. Irrespective, it is safe to assume that the number of 6YOs that have contested the race are few.

Base purely on the fact that only three 6YOs have won the race, I do not like Wise Dan’s chances.

Goldikova was a better miler than The Dan and in her quest as a 6YO for her 4th consecutive victory, she was defeated by the lucky 7YO Court Vision. If not for a troubled trip by then 4YO Turallure, there would be no 7YO winner of mile.

BTW where was Wise Dan the 4YO in November of 2011? Seven days before the Mile he contested and won the G2 Fayette. I guess he was not considered good enough or was he afraid of Euro invader Goldikova?

The age of the possibles for the 2013 renewal of the Mile are summarized below:

3YOs – 4

4YOs – 5

5YOs – 5

6YOs – 1

7YOs – 1

The age groups that have dominated the Mile are well represented. Wise Dan’s performance in the Shadwell Mile indicated his age and 26 races are catching up on him. He might be able to defeat many of the possibles but it is virtually impossible for him to defeat all.

Anyone who is prepared to bet an entire bank on Wise Dan based on post position and starting odds, is clearly driven by emotions. It is the type of emotions that promote a refusal to see consistent with self-imposed blindness.

I have provided some cold facts above that might influence a rethinking such decisions.

re: Palace Malice Should be Admired

Paula Higgins — Wed, 09 Oct 2013 23:46:17 GMT

Zenyatta came in second because of several reasons: Quality Road backing up, she lost her sense of where she was in the pack (which were in fact 2 groups of horses), she was racing under the lights for the first time and on an unfamiliar surface that was playing very differently per the jockeys, than it ever had before. This was not a typical race for her at all. She was further back than she had ever been for the first half. Everyone, including her connections, knew she was having an issue with either the surface or the dirt in her face, or both. None of that was normal for her. This was Blame's home court. He had a dream trip. He should have been 5 lengths in front of her. He was a very talented horse, but he was no Zenyatta. What he was, was very lucky. As John Shirreffs said (paraphrasing)"If they raced each other another 9 times, she would have won." ITA. Personally, I believe that in spite of all the other issues she had to contend with, Quality Road cost her the second she needed to get by Blame.

ITA about Timeform ratings. Frankel was not better than Sea The Stars.

I think Wise Dan will come back and win in the Breeders Cup Mile.

ksweatman9, I couldn't believe they sent Hansen to S. Korea either.