The Joy of Kittens

re: The Joy of Kittens

PointGivenTCL — Mon, 28 Oct 2013 16:19:47 GMT

It's an interesting observation that some stallions tend to stamp a lot of their offspring with a particular color shade or markings: Storm Cat produced many foals (Raging Fever, After Market, Desert Stormer come immediately to mind) with his signature dark bay color and white facial markings; Giant's Causeway seems to produce more than his fair share of horses with unusual facial markings similar to his own (the most striking example being My Typhoon); and to me the most noticeable is Candy Ride, who must have a particular recessive chestnut gene responsible for the great number of his offspring with the distinctive (usually unmarked) orange chestnut coat where mane and tail color unusually match coat color (Sidney's Candy, Home Sweet Aspen, Evita Argentina, Misremembered, Clubhouse Ride to name the stars).

But the idea that Kitten's Joy is in any way responsible for the bay color of his offspring is simply untrue, for the reasons mentioned by other commenters. Chestnut is a recessive gene, of which KJ has two; the ONLY base color gene he can pass on to any of his offspring is chestnut. It is possible that he has certain color modulatory genes (such as whatever is responsible for the distinctive "Candy Ride" chestnut) that act on bay to produce a certain shade or patterning, but it is just as possible (and probably more likely) that the real reason many of these offspring share similar coloration is the one Ramsey brings up himself: "If I can replicate the same pedigree with 20 mares and can put the same gene pool in there, there’ll be three or four of them of the 20 that will end up being graded stakes horses. The percentage is on my side getting the gene pool mix. When the sperm hits the egg that’s it, its decided. So I’m making damn sure that mixture is in most of the pedigrees that I breed to Kitten’s Joy."

When many of the mares share similar genetics, you're going to see a lot of similar color genes. In this case, the dominant BAY color genes shared by the majority of thoroughbreds.

On that last point, if I had a Grand Slam mare to breed I would be knocking Ramsey's barn door down. Three major GSWs this year (Admiral Kitten, Kitten's Dumplings, Kitten Kaboodle) come from that cross. And as someone else already mentioned, many of his stakes winners are closely inbred to Roberto. Zenyatta would indeed be a mouthwatering match.

re: The Joy of Kittens

Love 'em all — Sat, 19 Oct 2013 16:51:53 GMT

One might want to add: Strong Mandate was foaled Feb. 8, 2011, the date of his dam's 19th birthday. It was reported he was a healthy colt. Wish him the best!

re: The Joy of Kittens

Coldfacts — Fri, 18 Oct 2013 14:43:02 GMT

Ride On Curlin set a NTR for 5.5F at Ellis Park.

How does one explain the fact that he was 2nd to last in the 1st 4F of the Champagnes.

Do not forget that Storm Cat mares gave us Dialed In and Bodermiester.

Are you aware that his owner refused $1M for him after his track record setting performance?

Strong Mandate's dam died 11 day s after he was foaled. He is therefore not a horse that I would be focused on long term.

Why am I not surprised that you are high on Cleburne? You are still under the Union rags syndrome.

I think his stable mate Smart Cover is the better of the two. He was produced from a Smart Strike mare. It was a Smart Strike mare that produced Derby winner Mine That Bird. Distorted Humor has no real record as a classic broodmare sire.

re: The Joy of Kittens

Age of Reason — Fri, 18 Oct 2013 14:32:41 GMT

I never thought I'd say these words, but I actually agree with Coldfacts on something. Bond Holder, to be exact. I've been following the guy since his debut (he's never run a bad race), and absolutely adore his Triple Crown prospects. Boy, can you imagine what a screamer the final furlong of next year's Derby might be if both he and Honor Code...? But let's not even go there. The last horse I touted like that was Take Control, less than a week ago, and I am crushed by the new of his incredibly heartbreaking and untimely end. I haven't felt grief like this since Barbaro. Rest in peace, you beautiful son of Azeri!

re: The Joy of Kittens

Ranagulzion — Fri, 18 Oct 2013 04:32:25 GMT

Coldfacts 17 Oct 2013 12:01 AM

Thanks. I'll be watching.

I like the undefeated Cleburne a lot for the BC Juvenile. The Dixie Union/ Mr Prospector cross, enhanced by the presence of Northern Dancer plus Seattle Slew over Something Royal in the Dam's pedigree, looks like classic breeding, similar to Union Rags. His trainer Dale Romans is one never to be ignored. Cleburne was my fancy in the Iroquois at long odds (didn't post it) and I'm sticking with him. Also I don't think that it is wise to rule out D Wayne Lukas's Strong Mandate as 2YOs can be very unpredictable.

Ride On Curlin is a good colt but he seems to be alwys finding one or two better ...I don't like the trajectory of that trait ...bridesmad type.

re: The Joy of Kittens

JayJay — Fri, 18 Oct 2013 03:29:35 GMT

RacingFan : I'm not saying you're wrong or anything, I'm just saying that a horse that can't win under his care does not mean the horse is a bad horse or can never win. It's quite possible he has set a high bar as far how he views horses. I don't necessarily agree that just because Mr. Ramsey himself "dumped" a horse that it should be retired because other trainers might find a way to get them to win. I would be worried what happens to the horses that he drops to lowest level and doesn't get claimed because at that point, Mr. Ramsey already knows it's not a horse that meets his requirement.

re: The Joy of Kittens

Brian Russell — Thu, 17 Oct 2013 16:18:34 GMT

Racingfan: You seem to be obsessed with what is completely a non-issue. I have known Mr. Ramsey for over 15 years and have closely followed his runners. I can't recall even ONE fatality in a race. With his massive numbers you would think he would have had several simply due to the law of averages, but he has not.

re: The Joy of Kittens

Abigail Anderson — Thu, 17 Oct 2013 15:47:48 GMT

I just loved this look into the Ramsey's breeding practice and the insights into how he has ended up with a virtual assembly-line of winners fascinates, since it seems to fly in the face of what other breeders are doing. By which I mean it gives me a renewed faith in the power of research. Ramsey's orientation reminds me of E.P. Taylor and Northern Dancer, right down to the habit of raising the babies as naturally as possible. E.P. had his youngsters out in the Canadian winter snows and I read that Vincent O'Brien credited this kind of practice with raising a colt as solid (nerves aside) as Nijinsky, The Minstrel and others. Great read, Steve. Thank you.

re: The Joy of Kittens

Coldfacts — Thu, 17 Oct 2013 15:29:12 GMT

Mr. Haskin,

I just watched 'And Theyr'e Off - The Harvest Edition and you recommended that Tap It Rich MSW victory was a must watch. Well, I reviewer the video and his performance was impressive but not exceptional. The colt that chased him hoe was making his 3rd start and had been beaten by better previously.

Tap It Rich is an imposing colt. However, I did not particularly like his stride pattern in the last 2F of his race as he appeared to be lumbering home instead of striding out effortlessly.

I do believe the MSW victory by Cleburne although on grass was far more impressive. The acceleration he showed while switching leads was ultra-impressive. His rider had to beg him to pull up.

I like Bond Holder from CA. The 1:38.28 Mile split recorded in the (G1) ForeRunner is not encouraging when compared to TIR’s 1:36 for his mile. He appeared to be struggling with the track you advised was much deeper due to addition of sand.

He is a much better more than TIR and I would take a good Mineshaft over a good Tapit any day.

re: The Joy of Kittens

Pedigree Ann — Thu, 17 Oct 2013 13:36:23 GMT

Color inheritance is pretty clear. A chestnut must get the recessive gene from both parents, not the dominant bay gene, or it cannot be chestnut. If a horse gets a bay gene, it will be expressed in preference to the chestnut one.

If you breed a chestnut to a chestnut, you must get a chestnut. The Suffolk Punch is a breed that is purely and completely chestnut and will always be so, unless a non-stud-book animal is incorporated.

The greying gene, on the other hand, is dominant over 'not grey', so even after many generations of breeding greys to greys and getting more greys, the 'not grey' gene can be lurking in the genome. The Lipazzaners of the Spanish Riding School in Vienna are such a breed and every once and a while a foal comes out bay - it is considered lucky for the School to have one.

re: The Joy of Kittens

Racingfan — Thu, 17 Oct 2013 13:16:03 GMT

JayJay - it is clear that Mr Ramsey is a good businessman and really puts thought into his breeding efforts. It also appears that he looks out for the best interests of his stakes winners and homebreds. It's the horses he claims that concerns me. If anyone claims a horse and discovers it has problems that cannot be fixed, to me it is beyond irresponsible to just drop that horse back in a low level claimer and hope someone claims it so now it becomes their problem! In his own words that is what he stated that he does. That should not even be permitted to happen! Then maybe some of these low level horses wouldn't be out there breaking down when they could have been enjoying life in another career.

re: The Joy of Kittens

Coldfacts — Thu, 17 Oct 2013 04:01:23 GMT

Ranagulzion,

As a valued colleague I am going to share some cold facts with you about the likely Breeder Cup Juvenile winner who is normally the winter book favorite for the Derby.

Sacher Mine: Mineshaft-Pulsatilla by Gone West - Mr. P ($1.5M)

Nehro: Mineshaft-The Administrator by Afleet - Mr. P ($900K)

Cool Coal Man: Mineshaft-Coral Sea by Rubaino- Fappiano - Mr. P ($900K)

Miss Loretta Lynn: Mineshaft-Miss What A Day by Miswaki - Mr.P (Winner on debut)

BOND HOLDER: Mineshaft-Cielo Girl by Conquistador Cielo - Mr.P(Won the ForeRunner,G1 8.5F)

Sire and dam sire were both HOY. The cross has proven productive as cited in example above. Longer is better. Has Mineshaft's running style and will catch the speedster in The BCJ at a big price.

re: The Joy of Kittens

JayJay — Thu, 17 Oct 2013 02:24:33 GMT

I like the part where he tested the horses to see which water they like and then went ahead and provided it to them in a big way. I've never heard of anything like that. It's also amazing KJ's conception numbers, talk about a stud.

I'm kind of torn about RacingFan's post, annunciation is lost on prints, so it's kind of hard to see whether he was saying it with malice or in a "we tried and we give up" kind of demeanor. It may mean he wanted someone else to own the horse to try their way to see if they can make the horse competitive, just because the horse won't run or win with him, doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad horse. I don't know much about him before this article, for the most part, this article presented him as an honest businessman, and by honest, I mean he doesn't hide that his goal is both guided by the personal and the business side of things, it's very rare that you hear that from an owner. Most of the time, they talk about how important the horse is to them, that it's the best thing that's ever happened to them, the horse brought so much emotions....then 2 months later, the horse is on its way overseas...

re: The Joy of Kittens

Coldfacts — Wed, 16 Oct 2013 23:43:12 GMT

Ranagulzion ,

Cleburne over Ride On Curlin?

Although Cleburne defeated ROC in the Iroquois it should be noted that Cleburne had previously won at a mile. ROC entered the Iroquois off a 5 1/2F MSW victory.

re: The Joy of Kittens

lunar spook — Wed, 16 Oct 2013 19:28:17 GMT

I just gained new respect for MR. RAMSEY letting his horses run free instead of being cooped up all day is great , wish more owners and trainers were like him , ill be pulling for his stable come B.C. TIME!!

re: The Joy of Kittens

Brigitte — Wed, 16 Oct 2013 17:53:45 GMT

I'd agree with Anglachel although there is a possible way Color & racing talent could be linked. That way is if the color gene(s) are close on the same chromosome to a gene important for endurance, or precocity, or early speed. Then when recombination occurs during sperm formation they'd stay together. (The Y chromosome doesn't recombine but racing talent is certainly not male-linked!) Few of the genes important for racing success are known and it surely takes several so it's not likely.

re: The Joy of Kittens

Ranagulzion — Wed, 16 Oct 2013 17:36:00 GMT

Zarona,

Would you be kind enough to name the colt, you rated 477 and filly you rated 517?

Kentucky Derby/Oaks watch 2014 has begun ...Honor Code and Cleburn in the colts division and Artemis Agrotera and Untapable in the fillies division are atop my watch list.

re: The Joy of Kittens

JerseyBoy — Wed, 16 Oct 2013 14:40:33 GMT

Anglachel:

Re a horse’s skin color.

Thank you for the light you have shed on the subject.

It is all in Wikipedia for anyone who wishes to study the facts about the colors of horses. I never wanted to be the one to bring it up.

URL:

en.wikipedia.org/.../Equine_coat_color_genetics

re: The Joy of Kittens

Coldfacts — Wed, 16 Oct 2013 08:56:27 GMT

Anglachel,

"The idea that a stallion stamps his best offspring with a certain colour is absolutely laughable."

Since I was the one the mentioned the fact that Storm Cat's best sons are chestnuts, I feel obliged to respond to your post.

There was no reference to Storm Cat stamping his best offspring's with a certain color.

You will note I specified that it was an observation that his best sons are chestnut. I have not done any research to determine the reasons. However, I am not sure there is a research that would result in a definitive answer.

Based on the aforementioned observation, if I were in the market for Storm Cat offspring I would be more inclined to acquire a chestnut based purely on their historic performance records.

With that stated there are no guarantees as purchasing a unraced thoroughbred has equal risk irrespective of the color of its coat.

There was Storm Cat chestnut yearling acquired for $6M by the same folks that acquired the brilliant Storm Cat chestnut, Giant's Causeway. He turned out to be a flop.

No one would be so naïve to think that any stallion is capable stamping his best offspring with a particular color. An observation advanced is just that. This is quite different from a conviction or factual declaration.

re: The Joy of Kittens

Anglachel — Wed, 16 Oct 2013 04:01:08 GMT

Much as I hate to say it... The idea that a stallion stamps his best offspring with a certain colour is absolutely laughable. There's a reason why a large chunk of the top sire's good horses are chestnut, and that would be because both the sire and mare clearly carry the recessive gene for chestnut (I would suspect a large portion of the mares bred to any stallion are chestnut to begin with), and as such produce chestnut offspring. It doesn't matter if the foal carries the gene for bay as well, since it is a gene that cannot be expressed without the presence of a black base. I suspect that at least 75% of Kitten's Joy's offspring do carry the gene for bay as well, but simply do not express it. The same with Tapit and Storm Cat. I would suspect that more of Tapit's strong foals are grey simply because it is a completely dominant gene (i.e. grey goes over everything), and Storm Cat's were chestnut because you'd be hard pressed to find a mare that doesn't carry the gene for chestnut.

On the other hand, great article Steve!

re: The Joy of Kittens

Paula Higgins — Wed, 16 Oct 2013 02:43:26 GMT

Racingfan, I agree with you about the dumping issue. I think this is what owners and trainers did in the old days and some still function this way. I think his feeling is that they do everything they can to fix the problem. But it is pretty clear that if they can't, they are done with the horse. This a huge problem in the public's perception of horse racing and needs to be addressed definitively. I will always admire Mary Lou Whitney for her efforts on their behalf to find them care after their racing careers. I really hope that the new people in the game will feel a moral responsibility to make sure horses that don't succeed on the track are given good homes.

re: The Joy of Kittens

zarvona — Wed, 16 Oct 2013 00:21:44 GMT

oops make that "Bobby's Kitten" d. "Celestial Woods"...

geeze you guys usually jump on my mistakes, [[but see... I really do follow and rate most all 2 year old runners... colts and fillies !!! & one colt rates at 477 and one fillie thus far rates out at 517 for those keeping track,,, where no Kitten Joy bred yet rates in the 400's for those really keeping score !! but we are still watching...]]

re: The Joy of Kittens

zarvona — Wed, 16 Oct 2013 00:13:12 GMT

I have followed “Kitten’s Joy” since he won the Virginia Derby at Colonial Downs. However, it was his Hirsch Classic win at 12 furlongs that got me more interested in his offspring handling longer distances.

Moreover, and not so surprisingly, look for those of his offspring that are bred to ‘high rated’ mares to do well on turf up to 1 1/8. I don’t see many colts from this line yet however that look like 1 ¼ runners, thusly I don’t see,--in the immediate future anyway,--a “Kitten’s Joy’s” bred colt taking the Kty. Derby or the Belmont.

Additionally, a horse player recently once turned to me and stated, “There surely seems to be a lot of 'Kitten’s Joy' breds out there the last few years.” And I had to remind him, “Well, here at Colonial this is perhaps one of the finest Turf Courses in the country without turns. It’s the perfect spot for Turf bred horses, and ‘Kitten’s Joy’s’ offspring surely fall into that category.”

In looking over the “Kitten Joy” bred 2 yr. old horses out there so far this year, there should be quite a few that excel on turf up to 1 1/8 especially in the fillies ranks. And, this is only my take.

c. “Bobby’s Kitten” d. “Crumbs of Comfort”; does however rank reasonably high up in my present 2nd tier, being where he took the Gr. III 1 1/16 (T) Pilgrim S.; Bel.; 1.42.37;

However, those of his offspring that look even more intriguing, are from his daughter’s (from the filly’s) ranks.

f. “Beth Ann’s Kitten” d. “Crumbs of Comfort”; thusly also looks promising, but hasn’t yet shown us what she might yet really be capable of, and yet remains high on my watch list in my 1st tier.

f. “Kitten Kaboodle” d. “Easy Slam”; additionally ranks high and off her Gr. III 1 1/16 (T) JPM Jessamine S.; Keen.; win… 1:44.01; we are still keeping her on watch.

f. “Granny Mc’s Kitten” d. “Granny Fanny”; winner of the 1 1/16 (T) P.G. Johnson S.; Sar.; 1.42.07; & that following her 2nd in her Msw 1 1/16 run in 1:43.68; plus a nose; ranks high in my second tier; and also remains ‘on watch’.

…and even

f. “Lien On Kitten” d. “Mortgage the House”; at 2- 2-0-0 also remains high on my watch list, after her 1 Mi. Msw (T) win at AP; and then her follow up 7 fur. Kty Downs Fillies S.; KD; win …

So his daughters are looking more interesting than his colts thus far, but we are keeping our eyes open in case one of the Ramsey’s many trainers are holding one or several of their chargers back waiting to further unleash the ‘kitten’s fury’.

re: The Joy of Kittens

TerriZ — Tue, 15 Oct 2013 20:06:36 GMT

I was hoping that Mr. Ramsey would bring Kitten's Joy to be seen at the Breeder's Cup.

I think that the winning numbers of this fabulous sire will inspire breeders from all over the globe to send their mares to him.

And what a terrific venue to showcase Kitten's Joy to international owners.

Mr. Ramsey is a very smart man and is an innovator in horse racing. Horses need to run to develop their muscle and bones and not be sitting in a stable.

Thanks for a wonderful article.

re: The Joy of Kittens

edrul427 — Tue, 15 Oct 2013 18:29:39 GMT

The business needs more Ken Ramsey.You go Sir.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!