Wise Dan Great, Period

re: Wise Dan Great, Period

Terlingua — Thu, 14 Nov 2013 20:28:38 GMT

Pedigree Ann, Just reading comments here and I do agree with your post of the 9th in which you discuss speed and stamina. The classic distance is just that.

re: Wise Dan Great, Period

lunar spook — Wed, 13 Nov 2013 21:21:04 GMT

MIKE RELVA- I wanted to see a race between Rachel & zenyatta more than any 2 horses I ever saw , I was so dissipointed when the apple blossom race in Arkansas fell thru ,my head said zenyatta , my heart said Rachel , but I had respect for both , if my remarks seemed geared more toward wise dan more than his connections , it wasn't meant that way , I just feel hes a tad untested , just my opinion , and that and a dime will get u a cup of coffee , have a safe evening !!!

re: Wise Dan Great, Period

Mike Relva — Wed, 13 Nov 2013 19:44:50 GMT

Lunar Spook

There's nothing wrong with a healthy debate-I got it. When it comes to some that attempt to tear down the accomplishments of a horse,that's a different story. Obviously you don't remember the attacks of Zenyatta,Rachel to a absurd level.

re: Wise Dan Great, Period

Saratoga AJ — Wed, 13 Nov 2013 16:14:14 GMT

You know, based on Dan's record and longevity, he is approaching the stature of 3 other great geldings....Forego, John Henry, and the mightiest of all....Kelso.

Another year or two of successful campaigns, and a couple of wins in open company on dirt could perhaps seal the deal and add him to that distinguished list.

re: Wise Dan Great, Period

chucky — Tue, 12 Nov 2013 19:22:43 GMT

larthemisathemis,

Sorry to disagree with you but the Epsom Derby is decades before the 2k Guineas.

The Derby and Triple Crown is what the word thoroughbred were meant to be.

IMO the mile is a in-between race. Not enough speed to sprint and not enough stamina to stay.

As pedigree ann has stated

"Most breedings will fail to produce the ideal type of TB, hence we have have races for the 'failures' - multitudes of sprint and mile races and a sprinkling of races for dour stayers"

re: Wise Dan Great, Period

El Kabong — Tue, 12 Nov 2013 16:24:59 GMT

Steve, Paula,

sometimes this game is cruel. When Tony Bennett was at SA to sing The Best Is Yet To Come, the sound system failed. This year it worked fine. Ouch. Where were the lousy connections when we needed them.

As for Wise Dan, well just when you think enough cannot be said, I'll say it again. I have seen many a horse in my days, not as many as some on this site, but I will reiterate what I noticed last year while hugging the paddock rail at SA. Wise Dan is a breathtaking statue of a horse. Never seen one as balanced as Dan. On the muscle and on his toes. He was being schooled without tags or bridal plates on Friday last year and I had to shout at his walker, "who the hell is that?"

"Is Wise Dan," he said, in the local accent.

Holy smokes ladies and gents, he really does stand out.

re: Wise Dan Great, Period

larthemisarthemis — Tue, 12 Nov 2013 15:57:08 GMT

Thoroughbreds have been bred to win at a mile since the establishment of the 2000 Guineas in 1809. Wise Dan is indeed a great thoroughbred.

re: Wise Dan Great, Period

lunar spook — Tue, 12 Nov 2013 15:24:52 GMT

MIKE RELVA - most all sports websites I visit have friendly banter between the posters , I don't like the titans , the steelers are over rated , this quarterback should be benched , this players over paid , etc. etc. etc. what is your sensitivity with wise dan ? this is after all a SPORT ! I live in sec country and being a fan of a school most folks haven't heard of, the MTSU blue raiders ive learned to take the heat and roll with the punches , lighten up man , its all in fun !

re: Wise Dan Great, Period

Mike Relva — Mon, 11 Nov 2013 23:29:35 GMT

Lunar Spook

Difference is I can discuss racing without knocking some horse. I didn't infer your opinion will change after Wise Dan wins HOTY,point is it doesn't matter,zero consequence cause connections could care less what your opinion is.

re: Wise Dan Great, Period

Secretariat — Mon, 11 Nov 2013 21:40:12 GMT

Steve,

Loved your article, but it's not about the mile as much as it's about the turf.

There are people in this industry (especially "DRF") that try to brainwash new racing fans that one surface is "superior" than the other surface. They try to insinuate and "rationalize" that Americans should think that "dirt" is "GOD's surface".

Why do these individuals "preach and think" this way?

Answer:

...because Europe takes us out behind the woodshed every year and dominates our American horseflesh on the turf (on a consistent basis).

We have no "stamina" in American bloodstock anymore. This is the reason why we can't beat the Europeans on the turf (on a regular basis).

We don't even have "stamina" in our dirt runners anymore. Our Belmont Stakes winners are running 2:30 and change.

"Pathetic".

Why do you think these clowns want to get rid of the "Marathon" in the Breeders Cup?

I shouldn't have to answer that one for you. I'll leave that up to you to answer.

What's "thorough" in the thoroughbred anymore?

Answer: "Nothing"

We are breeding quarter horses now and if they don't run 10 and change at auction, then the breeders won't get that "high-dollar" money. This "way of thinking" is sick.

These quarter horse trainers have come into our sport and have changed the way breeders in Lexington breed. If they don't breed for speed, then these quarter horse trainers are going to tell their clientele: "we're not buying".

Once D. Wayne Lukas came on board, the whole thoroughbred breeding process changed. It started in the 80's and has been picking up momentum ever since.

Darrell Wayne Lukas became so large (with his franchised nationwide stable) that breeders meticulously started breeding for his clientele. D. Wayne Lukas wants speed. His student (Todd Pletcher) wants speed. Bob Baffert wants speed. "Stamina" takes a backseat to these quarter horse trainers. It's an afterthought.

We better start telling those cookie-cutter commercialized breeding operations in Lexington that we are not interested in buying their "speed-ridden" dirt pedigrees anymore.

We better start thinking of "stamina" before Europe comes over here and starts winning the "Breeders Cup Classic" on a consistent basis. Three years now, they have come within a length of winning the "Breeders Cup Classic (2000, 2001 and 2013)"

Then what are we going to do, when they start winning our premier event?

Are we going to cut back the distance of the "Breeders Cup Classic" to 9 furlongs so we can beat them with our speed-ridden pedigrees?

American horseflesh is a joke now.

...and the joke is going to be on us when we can't win the "Breeders Cup Classic" anymore.

Keep selling our bloodstock to Japan and other foreign nations. That'll really get us somewhere in the "stamina" department.

re: Wise Dan Great, Period

lunar spook — Mon, 11 Nov 2013 13:00:33 GMT

MIKE RELVA - WRONG !! ON BOTH COUNTS , regardless what happens in January my opinion WILL remain the same about wise dan and second I did not lose at the windows , I cleaned up on MAGICIAN who most folks on this forum brushed aside , anytime u want to post your picks on any race let me know and we will see who can pick horses !!

re: Wise Dan Great, Period

Footlick — Sun, 10 Nov 2013 22:08:25 GMT

Gollykeeper, remember that Moonlight Cloud is pounds better this year than last. She was just coming into her own when she had a rough trip on the rail in last year's BC Mile, getting bounced around like a ping pong ball. Also remember Black Caviar was injured in the Ascot race, and her jockey misjudged the finish. Moonlight Cloud's race was strong considering it was shorter than she wanted, but it has to be put in perspective. This year Moonlight Cloud was a much different animal. She was mature physically and mentally. Freddie did not send her to the BC Mile this year because of the trip she got last year. He did not want a repeat, and he did not want to run her on a course that tight and firm. Olympic Glory was just a sucker bet for anyone who bet him. It had never been said in Europe that he acted on firm turf. He also had issues with turns. But they did blinker him for the QEII and he ran a truer race. The owner wanted to support the Breeder's Cup. They tried to downplay Olympic Glory's distaste for firm turf, but the horse they really wanted in the race was Tornado, as in Europe it was the firmer the better for him. But he did nit recover from his operation as quickly as they thought. I don't think anyone is saying that Wise Dan is not versatile, at least where surface is concerned. Just my opinion, though.

re: Wise Dan Great, Period

Footlick — Sun, 10 Nov 2013 21:56:24 GMT

JayJay, I think that since it is perceived that his schedule of races next year will be about the same as this year with the exception that they have announced he will not run in any handicaps, in order to challenge him they need to do something different. If they are only interested in keeping him on the turf and running 8f or 9f, the only choice to challenge him would be to send him overseas and run. This does not have to be Europe, as they can send him to Dubai, Hong Kong, Japan or Australia if they wish. If his connections are thinking of stretching him out on turf and/or dirt, pointing to the BC Classic, then that will be challenging him, depending on what races they choose. It isn't necessarily that he needs to go abroad, but he needs to be challenged. At least that is my viewpoint.

re: Wise Dan Great, Period

AngelaInAbilene — Sun, 10 Nov 2013 15:42:57 GMT

Wise Dan is a "Great Horse" regardless of what they naysayers crow and will be rememberes as such. He has been as consitant a horse as we have ver seen. He is a "machine." Yes, he has taken pretty much the same road his entire career but that oes not diminish him in any way. And it absolutely delightful to live vicariously through his owner and trainer. Not since Zenyatta have we seen a trainer/owner combination who truly enjoy, even revel in their horse and his accomplishments. IMHO, Wise Dan is this year Horse of the Year again.

re: Wise Dan Great, Period

chucky — Sun, 10 Nov 2013 06:42:34 GMT

Pedigree Ann

Well said. Goldikova was a great horse specialist. A great miler. Sea The Stars was a great thoroughbred and took center stage winning the most prestigious races in Europe. How bright would Frankel star would have shined if Frankel raced in the same year Sea was taking europes great races?

I will always admire great horses like Goldikova, Wise Dan, Frankel but great thoroughbred only applies to the very few and in this age of breeding for fast cash, the great thoroughbreds are getting rarer and rarer.

re: Wise Dan Great, Period

JayJay — Sun, 10 Nov 2013 05:59:48 GMT

I don't understand the comments about Wise Dan going overseas to compete. None of the "great horses" of our past travelled overseas, they faced each other a lot, but I don't believe they travelled to other countries seeking greatness but then again, it's very possible I'm wrong.

re: Wise Dan Great, Period

Footlick — Sat, 09 Nov 2013 21:54:02 GMT

I was not sure, Jersey Boy. Thanks for letting me know.

re: Wise Dan Great, Period

Steve Haskin — Sat, 09 Nov 2013 17:56:08 GMT

Jersey Boy, did you really think your comment was going to be posted? Have you not learned anything participating on this blog. I strongly advise that you refrain from the personal attacks in the future.

re: Wise Dan Great, Period

predict — Sat, 09 Nov 2013 16:11:02 GMT

Well, when all is said, if you bet a horse with confidence, and he wins, then he is a great horse?

Morti! There's got to be a better way!

Yes, dear.....

re: Wise Dan Great, Period

Pedigree Ann — Sat, 09 Nov 2013 14:59:52 GMT

The Classic distance horses in open company will ALWAYS have first call on the title Horse of the Year if any have a year that deserves it.

In 1969, Ta Wee had an outstanding year. She won the Test, the Comely, the Prioress, the Jasmine (Hialeah was THE Florida winter track then) and Miss Woodford against her age group, the Interborough H against older mares, and the Vosburgh and Fall Highweight against older males.

But she never had a chance at Horse of the Year, because a 3yo colt named Arts and Letters won the Blue Grass, Met Mile, Belmont, Jim Dandy, Travers, Woodward, and Jockey Club Gold Cup; he was also second (closely) in the Kentucky Derby and Preakness.

The entire point of breeding a Thoroughbred is to create an animal with both speed and stamina, able to beat sprinters sprinting and stayers staying. It is the staying part that is the most difficult to maintain in the breed, as the 'genetic drift' in all breeds is back towards speed over shorter distances. Finding and celebrating the staying horses of high class is essential if the breed is going to be truly Thoroughbred.

Most breedings will fail to produce the ideal type of TB, hence we have have races for the 'failures' - multitudes of sprint and mile races and a sprinkling of races for dour stayers; breeders will not continue to try if their 'failures' cannot win races and earn money. But sprinting and even miling is not what the Thoroughbred was created for and once we lose sight of that, we might as well be breeding Quarter Horses (whose racing sorts are 70%+ of 'failed' TB ancestry).

Ta Wee was champion sprinter of 1969, repeated in 1970, and is in the Hall of Fame. She was a great sprinter and fine broodmare, dam of 4 SWs from 6 foals, including Great Above, sire of Holy Bull. Not being HotY did not diminish her accomplishments.

re: Wise Dan Great, Period

Gollykeeper — Sat, 09 Nov 2013 13:16:57 GMT

What is versatile? Wise Dan has overcome terrible trips and even worse footing. A lot of Euros seem to excel on one type of grass course, soft or firm (e.g. Olympic Glory who bombed on the firm SA turf). It doesn't matter to WD- he excels on them all.

And as for lack of competition, he soundly beat Moonlight Cloud last year and she not only was literally unbeatable this year (and a Cartier HoY finalist), but she came within a diminishing head of beating Black Caviar at Ascot last year.

One mark of a great horse is that he or she can overcome adversity, as WD has repeatedly done. I really don't see what he has to prove to anyone. That said, I'd love to see him try Royal Ascot, simply because I'd love to see an older U.S. horse compete and win there. But imo Wise Dan doesn't need to do so to prove his greatness.

re: Wise Dan Great, Period

Mike Relva — Sat, 09 Nov 2013 06:39:15 GMT

Lunar Spook

Bottom line is after the winner is declared in Jan really isn't going to matter much what you think of Wise Dan. Don't blame the horse cause he beat you at the ticket window. lmao

re: Wise Dan Great, Period

Gio Ponti — Sat, 09 Nov 2013 05:38:21 GMT

I do think Wise Dan is great. One commenter who compared Gio Ponti to Dan, wanted to know if Gio Ponti was "great." Um, yeah. He won races at longer distances than Dan did. I am talking winning the Arlington Million 2009, Winning the Man O'War, and many other races. I certainly think Gio Ponti is a great horse.

re: Wise Dan Great, Period

Coldfacts — Sat, 09 Nov 2013 05:06:49 GMT

Mr.JerseyBoy,

In my post I specified that Goldikova is the standard for greatness in the turf mile world.

Gio Ponti who defeated Wise Dan handily in their only meeting over 8F. He was beaten twice by Goldikova in the BC turf Mile.

Wise Dan had an opportunity to race against the brilliant mare and was not considered good enough.

The comparison of the race records of both is dubious at best. Turf racing in Europe is far more competitive than in the US. In fact outside a few synthetic track all racing is conducted on turf.

The configuration and conditions of the turf courses in Europe very to extreme degrees and are not as one dimensional as the turf courses in the US. The American courses are mostly flat and firm. It is therefore much easier for a classy turf horse to accumulate large numbers of victories.

Goldikova is a brilliant race mare that could have accumulated far more victories if she was kept exclusive amongst her gender similarly to Zenyatta.

She battled the boys on both sides of the Atlantic on numerous occasions because the girls were no match.

For you to state that Goldikova is not in the same league as Wise Dan is laughable.

I have every confidence that you will do the right think and undo the insult by posting a retraction.

This assuming your ego will allow for same.

re: Wise Dan Great, Period

Paula Higgins — Sat, 09 Nov 2013 05:03:53 GMT

Steve, I watched your recap of the Breeders Cup with Lenny and at the end I laughed out loud over the comments about the "musical interludes." I thought maybe I was the only one who thought Kristin Chenoweth sounded like she was screeching. I mean seriously awful. I was afraid she would scare the horses.