Stanco Won More Than He Lost

re: Stanco Won More Than He Lost

Ranagulzion — Mon, 20 Jan 2014 18:36:24 GMT

mz: LMAO that abbreviated post was hilarious.

re: Stanco Won More Than He Lost

Ranagulzion — Sun, 19 Jan 2014 21:07:30 GMT

Jay Jay: The Eclipse awards are now final and in favor of Beholder. Do you still think that Stanco acted wisely? (LOL)

Steve: Do you still think that he won more than he lost? Now that the Eclipse results are in I actually feel sympathy for Princess of Sylmar. It is a painful loss with that resume she built ...simply because she was entered in the wrong Breeders Cup race ...what a shame. I'm not knocking Beholder here, she's a brilliant filly ...her connections proved smarter and ran her where her powers were dominant, that is, at Santa Anita (she lost on her only venture outside her hometrack/comfort zone to a filly that won on several different tracks) ...congratulations to them.

re: Stanco Won More Than He Lost

mz — Mon, 13 Jan 2014 19:55:24 GMT

Coldfacts: abbrev. are fn a.l.a. they can't be interp. in an unfortun8 manner.

i.e. "P.O.S." is what J called the car K was driving in MIB and it was most unkindly meant.

(LOL)(R we OK?)

re: Stanco Won More Than He Lost

Coldfacts — Sun, 12 Jan 2014 16:07:25 GMT

MZ,

The names of the male horses below have been regularly abbreviated in numerous postings:

Mine That Bird - MTB

Will Take Charge -WTC

Game On Dude - GOD

Mucho Macho Man - MMM

Each could be regarded as a Prince.

Do you do double and triple and quadruple takes every time you see their abbreviated names?

re: Stanco Won More Than He Lost

rmoney — Sun, 12 Jan 2014 11:14:18 GMT

Let it Ride. I grew up there with the old tote tickets and always looking for that one black flamingo same time every day!

re: Stanco Won More Than He Lost

RichardDFisher — Sat, 11 Jan 2014 18:05:10 GMT

Has anyone used mathematics, such as the kind in this old report, when handicapping? http://bit.ly/1emDKaU

re: Stanco Won More Than He Lost

Linda in Texas — Sat, 11 Jan 2014 15:26:13 GMT

MZ me thinks you are too savvy in the abbreviation world of texting. I took a double take myself the first time i saw P O S in reference to Princess of Sylmar. "The Princess" is a nice shortened version as Steve used in this article. Happy New Year MZ. Enjoy your comments always.

re: Stanco Won More Than He Lost

mz — Thu, 09 Jan 2014 22:02:49 GMT

I am so very sorry I have to say this but can we maybe stop calling the Princess "POS"? I really do double and triple and quadruple takes every time I see that. (Especially when she's gonna get the Eclipse.)

re: Stanco Won More Than He Lost

sceptre — Thu, 09 Jan 2014 02:23:34 GMT

Essentially agree with Kelso 1966. We can't read minds, and words sometimes mislead, but I'd wager this way. Also, a vote for Beholder as champion 3 yr. old, champion 3 yr. old filly, and older as well, and yes, perhaps HOY. Lastly, POS's Beldame was, in retrospect, less impressive than at first blush. Royal Delta had clearly already lost her mojo.

re: Stanco Won More Than He Lost

Amy Hurley — Wed, 08 Jan 2014 07:49:28 GMT

Mr. Stanco deserves the thanks of all racing fans for continuing to campaign Princess of Sylmar after she had certainly wrapped up the Eclipse by beating Royal Delta in the Beldame. I certainly disagree with Kelso 66 below, who seems to believe that racing POS in the B.C. was "all about [Mr. Stanco]." He clearly absolutely loves his filly and all that she has brought to him and his family - isn't that why people own racehorses [or should]?

re: Stanco Won More Than He Lost

JayJay — Tue, 07 Jan 2014 04:58:35 GMT

Ranagulzion : So your "tactic" is to avoid Royal Delta, Beholder and Closed Hatches and run in a different race to prevent her from losing the championship ? Because doing so, the publicity will distract the voters from Beholder's win and focus on the "filly" that went against the boys.

I think that's what separated the boys from the men right there...Mr. Stanco went with his decision to run his best filly against the best fillies or mare instead of "avoiding" them and distract the voters by running in a different race. I think I'll go ahead and say that he made the right decision and he should be credited for it. I think that's the reason why Mr. Stanco is a horse owner and you're a blogger.

And to correct you, I never said fillies should never run against the boys...if you paid attention, I said it takes a special type of filly or mare to do that and be successful, I didn't believe Princess was one. There's a big difference.

re: Stanco Won More Than He Lost

anita b — Mon, 06 Jan 2014 20:54:07 GMT

Hi Steve,

I am sorry that Mr. Stanco and Todd didn't stick to their original plan. Princess of Sylmar had been in training for over a year. She needed a vacation on a farm to rest and recharge her batteries. Horses, like humans, are not made of metal--bodies need time for rest and relaxation. Thats all. Hope all our beloved thoroughbreds have safe new years.

re: Stanco Won More Than He Lost

Ranagulzion — Mon, 06 Jan 2014 20:43:20 GMT

Coldfacts my buddy! Happy New year to you. I don't ever consider your reactions to my posts as personal attacks ...you're a jolly good fellow.

Your 'tale of the tapes' however fail to prove your point since Beholder won all her races at Santa Anita and scored in the Distaff on a speed-biased track. Beholder is an awesome fill in my view but Princess of Sylmar's overall body of work glows brighter.

Sports is also about tactics and Mr Stanco showed himself a poor tactician by sending POS to the Distaff against his better judgment. No one could argue that POS didn't belong in the BC Classic (except Jay Jay and his ridiculous notion that fillies shouldn't compete against colts). Given that she already had the resume for champion filly, I reasoned that entering her in the BCC would insulate her from the risks of 'muddying the Eclipse waters' in case she was training off after a long season or might be vulnerable to the homecourt/ speed-bias advantage that Beholder had in the Distaff. Thats what I meant by being "out of the reach of Beholder" ...nothing sinister, just plain wisdom/tactical genius.

re: Stanco Won More Than He Lost

JayJay — Mon, 06 Jan 2014 17:23:01 GMT

Ranagulzion : Just like Dreaming of Julia right ? The horse that would've annihilated the KD field...where is she now ? I'm still waiting for her to prove you right. I don't get why you're so into running fillies against the boys. It takes a special type of filly or mare to run against the boys, I don't feel Princess was one of them. I also don't think Mr. Stanco believed it either or he would've run her against them or even contemplated running her but I don't think it ever entered his mind and since he's the owner and he knows the horse well and you dont, well...I'd have to say he acted wisely.

Royal Delta was a monster two years ago, she was unstoppable but she couldn't do much against the boys...twice. I don't understand why you think Princess would do any better. I believe there's a lot of risk when you run fillies against boys, physically and specially mentally at least here in the US. They're not bred like the aussies or euros.

re: Stanco Won More Than He Lost

Coldfacts — Mon, 06 Jan 2014 16:07:25 GMT

“Stanco acted unwisely. Princess of Sylmar should have been entered in the BC Classic.”

It is incomprehensible that anyone would still be questioning the decision to enter POS in the Distaff instead of the BCC. A combination of stubbornness and optical illusion can be the only explanation for the continue maintenance of such a position.

After the running of the BCC, any consideration to enter POS was proven to be ill-conceived. Does anyone seriously believe that POS could have defeated the top 3 finishers in the BCC?

“I still believe that Princess of Sylmar, based upon her accomplishments was positioned to challenge the 'boys' in the BCC, which would have put her out of the reach of Beholder.”

I hope my comments below are not viewed as personal attacks as they are not intended to be.

It could be perceived that there is something sinister about the above position. The position assumes that if POS had bypassed the Distaff for the BCC and finished last, she would still have been the overwhelming favorite for the Eclipse. This is due to the fact that she still had a victory over the eventual Distaff winner Beholder.

What exactly is meant by:-

“which would have put her out of the reach of Beholder.”

By avoiding a rematch with Beholder, POS would have put herself out of her reach. In so doing her 3/4L victory over her in the Oaks would be even more decisive

Beholder’s victory in the Distaff would therefore be meaningless as it would not have been recorded over POS. I hope my assessment is incorrect but that is highly unlikely.

In such a scenario, POS would deserve an Eclipse for bravery for taking on the boys but not for champion 3YO female.

I regard Mr. Stanco a man of honor and the harboring of sinister scenarios that could have been contemplated dishonors his decision to enter the distaff.

Amazing!

re: Stanco Won More Than He Lost

Davids — Sun, 05 Jan 2014 20:31:58 GMT

JayJay, you will find Steve Haskin's blogs always informative and exciting to read, especially now that Derby fever is upon us and the posters are all very knowledgeable with a 'voice' to boot. Makes for an enjoyable meeting ground of opposing views through the love of horse racing/breeding. Thanks for the kind words, I enjoyed the discussion as well.

re: Stanco Won More Than He Lost

Ranagulzion — Sun, 05 Jan 2014 17:02:43 GMT

Jay Jay: wisdom is justified by its fruits and it justifies its proponents. I posted before the Breeders Cup that Princess of Sylmar had nothing to gain or prove by running in the Distaff. I also said that she should be pitted against the 'boys' in the Breeders Cup Classic an that it wouldn't matter what Beholder did in the Distaff in terms of threatening her right to the Eclipse Award for champion 3YO filly. A win in the BC Classic would've definitely eclipsed the repeat bid of reigning HOTY, Wise Dan. That idea was very appealing to me and fellow poster Jersey Boy especially in the wake of the French filly Treve blowing away one of the most formidable Arc fields at Longchamp. If you can't see the wisdom of my posts even with the benefit of hindsight ...well, I wish renewed vision for you in this new year. Happy New Year my friend.

re: Stanco Won More Than He Lost

Coldfacts — Sun, 05 Jan 2014 15:19:25 GMT

I always aspire to be fair and balance is my evaluation of records. I also try to avoid emotions as they invariably impact negatively on final conclusions.

POS deserves the Eclipse over Beholder.

The only way to settle the matter is to visit the tale of the tape:

POS’S 2013 record prior to Oaks:

1st 1m 70yrds, Busanda; 1st 8.5F, Busher; 2nd 9F,(G2) Gazelle.

Overall record prior Oaks 6 Starts, 4 Wins, 1 Places, 0 Shows. POS did not win a graded stakes prior to the Oaks.

BEHOLDER’S 2013 record prior to Oaks:

2nd 6.5F, (G2)Santa Ynez; 1st 8F, (G1)Las Virgenes; 1st 9F, (G1)Santa Anita Oaks.

Overall record prior Oaks 8 Starts, 5 Wins, 2 Places, 0 Shows. Beholder won three G1 stakes and place in two other graded stakes prior to the Oaks.

There can be no doubt that prior to the Oaks, Beholder had the better résumé.

POS defeated the 2YO Champion by 3/4L in the KY Oaks to record her 1st G1 success. It was their 1st meeting. Beholder had some issue in the paddock but it could not be definitively determined that this caused her defeat.

Who was the better filly after the Oaks? Some would say the victor but Beholder was certainly not vanquished.

Despite Beholder's loss she still had the better résumé.

Post Oaks/Pre Distaff:

POS: 1st Alabama Stakes; 1st Coaching Club American Oaks; 1st Beldame (All G1 stakes),

Beholder: 1st Torrey Pines; 1st Zenyatta G1,

Both fillies went undefeated after the Oaks with POS winning the more prestigious races. However, it should be noted that Beholder won the more prestigious races prior to the Oaks.

They met for the 2nd time in the Distaff and Beholder was the victor on that occasion. In their two meetings, POS defeated Beholder by 3/4L and Beholder defeating POS by a city block.

The 2013 résumés of both fillies reflect four G1 victories. The prestige associated with the G1 races each won can always be debated. However, the most prestigious of the G1 victories went to Beholder.

True champions show and perform despite the disadvantages and adversities they face. POS showed up but did not perform in the biggest race of her career. Beholder on the other hand gave a dominant performance consistent with that of champion.

Beholder résumé always reflected that she was the better of the two and no amount of spin on POS’s post Oaks record can disprove this cold fact.

re: Stanco Won More Than He Lost

datflippinrabbit — Sun, 05 Jan 2014 15:15:36 GMT

Quite simple really, Princess of Sylmar went west because of two reasons,poor judgement on behalf of the owner and poor advise greed and horsemanship on behalf of the trainer.She had done enough for a 3yo filly in one season of racing.

re: Stanco Won More Than He Lost

JayJay — Sun, 05 Jan 2014 05:48:26 GMT

Davids : Thanks for the thorough explanation of the "home track" for the east coast horses. I'm not sure where Princess is actually stabled.

As much as I agree about the historical value of the races you mentioned, the quality of the horses running in those races have very much diminished in the last decade. I'm not trying to diminish Princess' accomplishments, she won those races and convincingly but you have to admit that the horses she beat in those races are not very accomplished horses except for RD and CH. It goes the same for the fields that Beholder beat. It's just how racing is in our generation. It wouldn't bother me one bit if Princess is crowned the champion, but the way I see it, I think Beholder did what was needed to win the championship. Track bias or not, I honestly don't think Princess was going to beat Beholder that day the way she ran, but yes, it would've been awesome to see her try. I hope to see both Princess and Beholder next year, and I hope that Beholder travels east to race on Princess' home track. It would be a great race and it would be good for the sport.

I understand about the idiosyncrasies of tracks and that's why I said track bias is part of the game. It shouldn't be used as an excuse for horses losing a race. Anytime a horse I bet loses because of track condition, I blame myself…because I should've handicapped it better taking into account the condition of the track. Anyway, it's a pleasure having a discussion with you, thanks.

Ranagulzion : You posted unwisely.

Steve H : Any chance of an early derby dozen ? I think I got the fever early this year. I'm anxious to see where Poker Player is...he's the one I'm watching this year. I'm also keeping an eye on Rise Up and Honor Code, all the talk is Shared Belief who has been impressive lately but I'm waiting to see him run on dirt.

re: Stanco Won More Than He Lost

Alex'sBigFan — Sun, 05 Jan 2014 03:18:03 GMT

I love Princess of Sylmar. I definitely think she deserves the Eclipse Award. If she does not get it then Mr. Stanco and Mr. Pletcher can say to the powers that be, "Are you out of your Alfalfa flingin' minds?" (Sorry could not resist that one) But she is the pretty, little chestnut, alfalfa flingin' filly, with a champion's heart and she deserves to win. In a real episode of Mr. Ed, Wilbur did walk in the barn and found Ed shooting an arrow with a bow in his mouth and said to him, "Are you out of your Alfalfa pickin' mind?"

My heart goes out to here to Mike Repole and Todd Pletcher today on the loss of Caixa Eletronica. What a terrible tragedy losing him in that freak training accident, as well as the other horse involved. Hope all jockeys are ok. I can't even imagine the depth of pain these men must feel, and everyone associated with Caixa Eletronica. It seems surreal and I can't even get my head wrapped around it. Terrible day for racing, terrible day for Belmont Park, terrible for these two men, one who trained, one who owned, to guide a horse to get to this caliber of racing only to meet its demise is such a senseless way. I feel my heart is breaking right along with them.

re: Stanco Won More Than He Lost

Ranagulzion — Sun, 05 Jan 2014 03:01:28 GMT

Even with the 20/20 vision of hindsight staring at her dismal BC Distaff no-show, I still believe that Princess of Sylmar, based upon her ccomplishments was positioned to challenge the 'boys' in the BCC, which would have put her out of the reach of Beholder.

Given the change in the track on day 2, I could see her doing what Last Gunfighter did or at worst, finishing ahead of Game on Dude to end all arguments about her right to the Eclipse award. I really hope that she gets it anyway.

re: Stanco Won More Than He Lost

Ranagulzion — Sat, 04 Jan 2014 23:17:49 GMT

Stanco acted unwisely. Princess of Sylmar should have been entered in the BC Classic. Nevertheless I think that she still deserves the Eclipse award (no disrespect to the brilliant Beholder who used her homecourt advantage well).

re: Stanco Won More Than He Lost

Davids — Sat, 04 Jan 2014 19:54:18 GMT

JayJay, home track advantage is generally referring to where a horse trains (is stabled) on the same track that are going to race on. Obviously, when this is expanded to say the Breeders' Cup races, horses stabled at Santa Anita have a gross advantage over East Coast horses who have to ship west - as well, going from cool to hot temperature is not as conducive to optimum performance as going the other way.

All tracks have their 'idiosyncrasies,' again, generally, horses training at Aqueduct or Belmont wouldn't really be too compromised racing on either track. However, a horse training at Saratoga may have a distinct advantage over horses coming from Belmont, Aqueduct when the race is being run at Saratoga.

Churchill Downs, generally, is fair to both speed horses and closers but all tracks can be speeded up or slowed by human or natural intervention.

Beholder is an absolute standout, she did not need the bias at Santa Anita on Breeders' Cup Friday to win the Distaff - the track surface however, did disadvantage horses who come from behind.

Winning the Alabama Stakes, Kentucky Oaks, Coaching Club American Oaks, let alone the Beldame, seals the 3 year old championship in my eyes no matter where the horse trains. Those races are the historic races that breeders/owners have strived to win for centuries and traditionally crown the champion.

It seems an absurdity that one standout filly will miss out on an Eclipse while in some other divisions we are searching for one, let alone three, possible candidates.

re: Stanco Won More Than He Lost

Bill Rinker — Sat, 04 Jan 2014 19:29:14 GMT

Thanks for another intriguing article Steve, Mr. Stanco should be considered a good sportsman regardless of his decision to race in the Breeders Cup. However the Eclipse Award is won by an interpretation based on results, and if you look at the past performances of both Beholder and the Princess you'll most likely be able to determine the out come. It is interesting to note when each filly reached a year of racing and when they got a break, it is also interesting to look closely at each of their race results. Both fillies are deserving of high merit but one seems to have an advantage based on their campaign results. Both trainners are at the top of their field and considered with the best of all time. It was probably necessary for Princess of Sylmar to win the Breeders Cup to validate an Eclipse. However she had just run the race of her career (Beldame) to date and was more than likely in need of a freshening at that point. If I had to rate both fillies on a scale of 1-10 for their accomplishments so far, I would put one at 9.6 and the other at 9.7 . I'm thinking the Eclipse will go to a very derserving Beholder.