Stayers Again Steal Ascot Show

re: Stayers Again Steal Ascot Show

Glorious Goodwood — Sun, 06 Jul 2014 19:30:57 GMT

The Marathon was such a lousy name for the race. The race should have been on Turf, 2 miles, and named the BC Gold Cup. I saw Yeats' 3rd Gold cup win, and it was such a popular win, and a privilege to watch.

re: Stayers Again Steal Ascot Show

Needler in Virginia — Mon, 30 Jun 2014 03:42:20 GMT

Steve, I understand about the sadness you feel about the news that the "marathon" is a thing of the past. I loved Kelso and Sagaro, and miss the excitement I felt watching them flying at the finish. My allegiance has almost entirely shifted to the Irish and UK horses these days. We have no more heroes here. But, these days, one of mine is Simenon, the not-so-wonderful "chaser who was retired from the jumps and "tried on the flat"...... only to win the Ascot Stakes (2m 5 1/2 f) on the Tuesday last year, and then was run back on Saturday to win the Queen Alexandra (2 m 4 f). Both times he won from fairly far back and with flying open finishes. He ran again this year, but did not fare so well...I think he finished 4th. But your point is well made and should be well taken. Running is what these guys do and clearly, they love doing it; even the slow ones like to run, they just like doing it with time to smell the flowers, too. The US focus on speed is putting our races into a very narrow box, bracketed at one end by 5 furlong races and at the other with a "classic" distance of 1 1/4 miles. WHOSE classic? OURS? Sad, sad, sad. Now we won't even have a chance of seeing one of these titans step onto an American track and we're the poorer for that.

As an aside, considering the races from Ireland and France this weekend, Galileo had a fairly good showing for a sire, don't you think? We already know what a good sire Galileo is, but GOOD GRIEF! 2 G1 winners, 2 G1 places, 1 show in a G1 and that's just in 2 races.......both at a mile and a half. Lucky them!

Safe trips.

re: Stayers Again Steal Ascot Show

RAFritz — Sun, 29 Jun 2014 15:31:37 GMT

Yeats must be remarkable, because I remember Sagaro and he was awesome. Sagaro was also one of the most impressive horses, visually--a very light chestnut, almost blond.

re: Stayers Again Steal Ascot Show

Joel Sandorf — Fri, 27 Jun 2014 23:07:35 GMT

I think the BC should add a 1 1/2 mile dirt race and a 2 mile turf race. I think both of these would be better supported than the 1 3/4 mile dirt Marathon. There are a ton of 2 mile grass horses in Europe and some in the US willing to try, plus more US trainers might be willing to try 1 1/2 on the dirt plus some Euros who have 12 furlong horses that aren't quite good enough for the BC Turf might take a shot at a 12F dirt race.

re: Stayers Again Steal Ascot Show

longtimeracingfan — Fri, 27 Jun 2014 19:04:56 GMT

Fully agree, Steve, and having watched Yeats' fourth Gold Cup victory, when he was supposedly too old and past his prime, was a big thrill for me. Last I heard of him he had been standing to National Hunt mares (popularly) for the first year or two, but there was a demand for him to stand for the standard TB mares so he was brought back. Would love to hear any updates on him.

I don't suppose anyone remembers anymore, or maybe I should say realizes, that in the early days of racing they DID run 4 miles, and not only that, they ran heats--- two or three wins or placements deciding the winners. So a horse might run -- or more properly gallop -- 8-12 miles before the outcome was determined for the day.

Breeding for stamina and offering races here that truly DO require stamina--- in this day and age seems like a really novel idea.... sadly.

Having walked the undulating course at Epsom where they run the Derby (and the Oaks the day before, BOTH at 1 1/2 miles) I have a huge amount of respect for the ability, courage, training, and bloodlines of the European Thoroughbred, though they really do have a lot of American blood over there. Training methods, opportunities, variety among courses, and racing surface all make for a more interesting and exciting racing game over there...

On the other hand, we here Stateside can watch dozens of races every day, from all over the country, all (nearly all) on dirt ovals with little variation; and because a sprint race takes less time to run, we can cram in 2 or more extra races so the tracks and bookmakers can make more money. Nothing against the tracks (except the sorts of races they card) or bookmakers (it's a free country and one does not have to bet ---gasp--- to enjoy a day at the races). We are talking apples and oranges here, but wow, sometimes you can come up with a truly great fruit compote!!! Why NOT races of 1.5 miles and above? As someone noted, longer races tend to have slower breaks from the gate and because the horses are fitter to begin with, less bleeding??

What's wrong with THAT??

Hmmm.... just had an interesting thought... because of the way Art Sherman has trained him, when California Chrome comes back as a 4 year old (as we have been told he probably will), wouldn't it be great to see him train on the turf and then go over to Royal Ascot next year... maybe he could be the trend turner...

Just sayin'.....

re: Stayers Again Steal Ascot Show

tjconway — Thu, 26 Jun 2014 00:35:03 GMT

This is what makes Thoroughbred racing so great. Distance-weight-competition-bloodlines-tracks-conditions-etc.

I gotta believe if Frankel faced John Henry in Canada at 1 1/8,under equal weights,on the turf,John Henry would beat him by a nose!!!!! This is a compliment to Frankel!!!!!!!!!

re: Stayers Again Steal Ascot Show

Old Old Cat — Wed, 25 Jun 2014 19:36:39 GMT

I would think the big breeders would love to have a few real Marathons or even a series run in the U.S. on the TURF (of course) to showcase the offspring of their vaunted stallions running without LASIX. That would be perfect to rekindle the flames of American breeding accross all the oceans and hemispheres. They could call it the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS. They could call the series: "The Breeders Cup Championship Series". Unless, of course, if that name is already used for something of less importance.

re: Stayers Again Steal Ascot Show

chucky — Wed, 25 Jun 2014 19:18:33 GMT

The truly great thoroughbreds of the past will never be bred again a good example of this was Forego

Sprint, Handicap and Horse of the Year award winner in 1974. A great sprinter, miler and stayer. and carried weight in true handicap races unlike today where the handicap races are in name only.

Too many hype specialist horses today from Frankel who is basically a miler to sprinters like Black Caviar. But true thoroughbreds like Forego or Sea The Stars are rarer.

re: Stayers Again Steal Ascot Show

Quinnbit — Wed, 25 Jun 2014 15:41:33 GMT

Sceptre; 24 Jun 2014 12:20 AM

If there really is need to affix blame on the lack of stamina in today's US Thoroughbreds we need to look no further back than 1980 when an ex quarter horse trainer moved to Thoroughbreds. He single-handedly changed the game as speed became king and Thoroughbreds were turned into "quarter horses" that could get a mile and a half. Ten more or so years down the road along comes another ex quarter horse trainer. Same tactics, same results.

The Thoroughbred breed will never be the same in the US thanks to these two.

re: Stayers Again Steal Ascot Show

mz — Tue, 24 Jun 2014 21:39:54 GMT

I am going nuts with work right now but I still need to stop, take a deep breath, and thank you, Steve for this blog. I love stayers and staying races (yeah, I am one of the dinosaurs still mourning the chopping of the distance of the Jockey Club Gold Cup and the CCA Oaks - never mind the "dumbing down" of other races beyond a mile!)

I agree with everyone else here that loved the Marathon. I thought it was a step in the right direction and always entertaining for me.

Happy Canada Day to all Cdns here.

Happy America Day / 4th of July to all non-Cdns here.

re: Stayers Again Steal Ascot Show

Deltalady — Tue, 24 Jun 2014 20:28:34 GMT

Another reason to like the longer route races -- 1 1/2 mi+ -- horses don't have to come out of the gate like sprinters do. They can slowly warm up and build up to the longer distance, and I truly believe this is safer and healthier for horses. All of the Hunt races are marathons and super marathons, and I have yet to see or even read where a horse bled during one of these types of races. The stayers are always "dead fit", conditioned to go these distances, it really is a joy to watch these remarkable horses do what they have been bred to do for centuries. There was nothing more beautiful and thrilling than watching Makybe Diva win that third Melbourne Cup, a 2-mile test of stamina that "stops a nation". Of course, your mention of the great Yeats brings chills thinking of his accomplishments, who truly may be the greatest stayer of all time.

re: Stayers Again Steal Ascot Show

Jean in Chicago — Tue, 24 Jun 2014 15:39:48 GMT

I agree with everybody else here who would like to see distance runners. Not necessarily 4mi races because I'm not sure the average American attention span would last that long, but certainly 2mi races. After all, thoroughbreds were developed from Arabians (still the most successful endurance horses) and British mares.

And, Steve, thank you again for all your insights. Its because of your sincere love of the 4-legged ones that you attract such a good group of caring 2-legged ones. We may not always agree about the best way to train or race them, but I think we all care very much about their welfare.

re: Stayers Again Steal Ascot Show

Deltalady — Tue, 24 Jun 2014 13:14:00 GMT

Wonderful retrospective and echo your thoughts completely. You cite two of my favorite ever races, Calidoscopio's BC Marathon in 2012 and his Brooklyn in 2013. The Stayers are one of the reasons I follow racing in Great Britain, and also Australia and France. In 2012 Royal Ascot, amid the hoopla of Frankel, Black Caviar, and So You Think, SIMENON almost got lost in the shuffle. His amazing and brilliant back to back wins in 4 days at Ascot were by a total of 13 lengths, at distances hard to comprehend in the U.S. Simenon won the 2 ½-mile Ascot Stakes on June 19 and the 2 5/8-mile Queen Alexandra Stakes four days later on June 23. Here's how you summed up that amazing 2012 Royal Ascot: "Once in a while you will find a year like 2012, when great racing is mixed in with great drama to titillate the fancy. But never before can I remember so many fascinating subplots, highlighted by The Queen winning her own Vase, one of the most controversial rides in decades, an amazing exhibition of durability and staying power, four contest winners taking home a grade II prize, and two equine legends destined to take their place among of the pantheon of greats."

"How much more can you ask for sprawled out on a couch in your pajamas?"

Amen!

re: Stayers Again Steal Ascot Show

sceptre — Tue, 24 Jun 2014 04:20:00 GMT

Nothing sinister going on here, rather it's essentially the natural progression of things. The breed has gradually become ever more homogeneous-that's what's supposed to happen in the process of selective breeding, and the Miler was, long ago, chosen as the object of selection. We (here in America) were well in the process of being the center for producing the World's elite milers-their ultra-brilliance at a mile would enable them to defeat most others at distances as far as even 12 furlongs. We almost got there, as evidenced by the American bred dominance in Europe during the 70s-80s. What went wrong (or sort of wrong)? Well, for one we lost the majority of our elite breed-to-race stables. Two, the Europeans, etc. caught on, our racing economy fluctuated, and they came in and bought off many of our best bred mares, and younger stock. As a result, back here in the U.S. our elite became ever more less elite and, as a group, being less elite meant a lessened ability for distance versatility (see a Buckpasser as example of distance versatility). Instead of the vast majority of great bloodlines being located within one country/one continent, they were diluted here and across the ocean (and there, chiefly turf). This isn't the whole answer, and there's a lot more to be told even re-this point; but you have a taste.

And, by the way; the stayers didn't steal the show. Had Queen Elizabeth's horse not been in the Ascot Gold Cup, the field would have produced little interest- just as the fields for the Breeders Cup Marathons caused little interest-not due to the races' distance, but rather because of the lack of quality participants...Look. I'd love racing to be what it was back in the 60's, even 50's, perhaps 70's, but it's difficult to affix any real blame for what has transpired.

re: Stayers Again Steal Ascot Show

lam1970 — Tue, 24 Jun 2014 02:00:07 GMT

Excellent article, Mr. Haskins!! You make a tremendously important point...American racing is purposely discarding stamina and the "stayer" quality in the Thoroughbred. In my opinion, THIS is what is wrong with racing in this country! We have continually bred out stamina in favor of speed and the trickle down from that is that races get shorter and the gallant horses who can run all day are not getting the opportunity to do so. This is one reason why we've had no Triple Crown in now 37 years and the Breeders Cup has chosen to eliminate a very fan popular race. A more positive spin on this is that we do have horses (both stallions and mares) who have pedigrees that contain more stamina influences and aren't watered down with sprinters. (Nothing wrong with sprinters.. I love them, but we have so many.) It may take some time, but we need to breed stamina and staying power back into the breed! It can be done, the American breeder just needs to latch onto the idea and then perhaps we can see these incredible feats of strength and endurance again. Okay, off my soapbox.

re: Stayers Again Steal Ascot Show

Paula Higgins — Tue, 24 Jun 2014 00:29:48 GMT

Really interesting comments here and ITA completely. Is there ANYONE in this country breeding for stamina and distance? To the poster who noted the Brits let their horses run over hill and dale, you are right. We need to do more of that ourselves. There is nothing wrong with milers but you need more than that to sustain a sport.

re: Stayers Again Steal Ascot Show

Bethany Loftis — Mon, 23 Jun 2014 22:38:58 GMT

Wonderful article! Thank you so much! Royal Ascot and Longchamp are on the bucket list :)

This is slightly off topic - It seems more stallions with potential are being shuttled and exported this year than previous years. I'm curious why more foreign stallions aren't imported or shuttled, like the stories I've read of Bull Hancock, for the northern hemisphere breeding season. Are our quarantine procedures too strict and costly? Is there no market demand for these stallions? Those lines seem to be flooded with stamina and durability, and in my eyes would help "strengthen" our breed. I really wish an ambitious breeder would take a chance. It may take a few years to notice a change, or to find the right combination, but hey! Worth a shot! I just wish I had the cash :)

I also believe foreign training styles also contribute to their horses', not just thoroughbreds, soundness and stamina. I feel we as owners, horsemen, as well as horse lovers could learn something from them.

re: Stayers Again Steal Ascot Show

Davids — Mon, 23 Jun 2014 21:25:38 GMT

Steve, I am re-reading all the books on the great horses of the 60s and 70s, Damascus at present :), and you simply can not equate those horses, those races with racing of the present time.

The Jockey Club Gold Cup is still my favourite race of the year but even that great race has lost its glory and is tarnished a bit(sic). You try not to live in the past but sometimes...

re: Stayers Again Steal Ascot Show

Gin — Mon, 23 Jun 2014 21:05:04 GMT

Fantastically written! A shame in this country we don't concentrate on the all mighty stayer. I hate how we've ruined the TB. The need for speed is garbage. Too many health issues with the pounding on their legs. On dirt to boot.

Calidoscopio was alot of fun, Thanks Aaron for your great rides on him!

We will never see another TC winner we have screwed up how the TB is supposed to be, with lighter bones all for the need for speed. Sick sick sick.

I hope Steve that these tracks do keep their marathon races, even if no more marathon at the BC. Maybe another track will host a marathon race, or gee they make the JCGC 2 miles again! I know nice dream. But always hopeful!

re: Stayers Again Steal Ascot Show

Terry M. — Mon, 23 Jun 2014 19:43:08 GMT

I agree completely! American racing has no use for stayers, those stout, sound horses that can race 1-1/2 to 3 miles and never quit, the horses with stamina and guts. Big mistake. Those long races are so exciting! The sprints? Blink and it's over. All the big races for stayers have been cut back and cut back in distance until they have become mere shadows of what they once were. Bring back the long races! That's what the Thoroughbred was originally created for! If you want real sprinters, race Quarter Horses. To call the BC Marathon a "marathon" when it is well under two miles is a joke.

re: Stayers Again Steal Ascot Show

Margaret Ann — Mon, 23 Jun 2014 19:18:46 GMT

I watched Calidoscopio win the Brooklyn and was on my feet cheering him on, as he came down the stretch. My husband thinks I am nuts, he is not a horse person, I love him anyhow. I have never understood why distance races are disappearing, they have always been the most interesting. The horses just, grander. Yeats, John's Call, Cetaweyo, Sword Dancer. Miss them.

re: Stayers Again Steal Ascot Show

chucky — Mon, 23 Jun 2014 19:07:45 GMT

I will say it again. This industry decline and it's continue decline could be all traced to the breeding for quarterhorses wannabes and milers.

Sprinters and milers are NOT THOROUGHBREDS regardless of what the breeders wants to promote. PERIOD

re: Stayers Again Steal Ascot Show

Tommyboomer — Mon, 23 Jun 2014 18:49:10 GMT

Thanks Steve, I never fail to learn from your articles.

re: Stayers Again Steal Ascot Show

Virgil — Mon, 23 Jun 2014 18:30:00 GMT

Bravo.

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Windolin — Mon, 23 Jun 2014 17:17:54 GMT

PS...we are trying to bring horse racing to Georgia. Would not longer races on turf be a goal?