Countdown to the Cup - Rachel Rocks the Spa

re: Countdown to the Cup - Rachel Rocks the Spa

charles — Sun, 25 Oct 2009 19:24:53 GMT

Rachel beat a grade 2 (TWO) Macho Again while getting 8 pounds and being whip 21 times at the stretch.

No she is no super filly or that hype fillies for the ages. She is a good filly who ran good races not great against good horses not great.

IMO, she has shown her limitation.

re: Countdown to the Cup - Rachel Rocks the Spa

RA — Wed, 21 Oct 2009 00:37:36 GMT

laz - i'll take that bet- when is the first race? exactly my point

re: Countdown to the Cup - Rachel Rocks the Spa

Susan E. — Tue, 29 Sep 2009 01:04:20 GMT

Cardiganjack - Yes, I am concerned too - as far as I can tell no one has heard anything verifiable about RA since the Woodward. I've gone on several other boards plus Blood Horse, etc. - as of last Friday I had not seen any comments about RA's current health and soundness. I "heard" that the week after the Woodward she was supposed to get a good exercise - but didn't show. Steve - do you know anything? The silence is deafening out there!

Also, cardiganjack - I agree with you completely -"... there is something compelling and vulnerable about her and she is loved." the sense of vulnerablility is a worry for me..can't put my finger on it, just a feeling. What has ultimately impressed me about her is her display of heart and GUTS - to dig down and find more when she has alredady given everything.

re: Countdown to the Cup - Rachel Rocks the Spa

Ann in Lexington — Sun, 27 Sep 2009 23:50:50 GMT

To quote:

3 year-old Busher still outdoes her, no grading system at that time, but major races, up to 10 F, turf and dirt, 2x colts, 2x older males. ;-)

Sorry, no turf racing at most tracks in the East in the 1940s. All her wins were on dirt, although the names of some of her races have since been given to turf races.

re: Countdown to the Cup - Rachel Rocks the Spa

LAZMANNICK — Sun, 27 Sep 2009 19:16:12 GMT

Your'e still caught up in the moment with Rachel's accomplishments......Without a doubt she had a sensational year and I will be the first one (after Draynay of course) to admit it.....However, would she ever defeat Curlin?.....It's possible under the proper conditions, but remember, she never raced against a horse with Curlin's class......If you want to keep on talking about time, of course time is important, but it is not the most imortant comparison tool.....If it was then why do claimers set track records that G-1 horses can't beat?....I'm willing to bet that if they raced ten times, Curlin would probably win all ten.

re: Countdown to the Cup - Rachel Rocks the Spa

Mary in VT — Sun, 27 Sep 2009 04:09:07 GMT

I saw Curlin's Woodward. Stood right there at the finish line right next to the winner's circle. Have pics of the start, and the finish, and in the winner's circle.

I think the winning margin was more indicative of Robby Albarado's timing of the race than it was a valid comparison between Past The Point and Curlin. Sometimes people forget that the horse is told when to make it's move. Top Jockey's like Albarado have a great sense of timing, but they aren't computers. Just like Mike Smith on Zenyatta in the Hirsch, Albarado might have misjudged the competition by a fraction or two, if he would have preferred to win by a larger margin that is.

The point is, it is a huge mistake to focus just on the finish of that race or judge Curlin just by the winning margin in that race. If you want to see what Curlin did, find the youtube video and watch him explode around the far turn and into the stretch. Yikes! I'll never forget it as long as I live. He looked like one of those ultra high speed locomotives streaking by flesh and blood horses. THAT was Curlin.

Now that I am thinking about it, Curlin got sandwiched and carried out wide into the clubhouse turn. I can't remember how long he ran well out from the rail, but you have to factor that into the equation as well. Every past performance lists when a horse runs wide because quite obviously they are running a longer race which naturally effects what they have left at the end. Add how many feet he lost on the first turn to the winning margin and I think you will like it much better.

re: Countdown to the Cup - Rachel Rocks the Spa

Footlick — Sat, 26 Sep 2009 23:02:06 GMT

That's fine with me RA- you believe what you know and I will believe what I know. I deal with facts whether they are past or present, but if you don't think I do, that's fine with me. I'm not here to get antagonistic or to sway anyone. I just want to state my opinion. Just as you want to state yours. You believe that it is unlikely that you are wrong, I believe that I am right in my assessments.

re: Countdown to the Cup - Rachel Rocks the Spa

RA — Sat, 26 Sep 2009 22:19:25 GMT

oops! i mistyped fantasy in my last post- always proofread your work children!

Footlick - you can only judge the greatness of a horse in its own time capsule How else can it prove itself? Everything else is just opinion and assumption(and there are hundreds of those )- not FACT If you believe that curlin would beat her easily - you are entitled to do so but you might be wrong. If i believe that she could deal with curlin i also am entitled to do so but i might also be wrong (unlikely) Even if there is a consensus of belief it doesn't make it true People used to believe that the world was flat, based on the data they had and the value they placed on that data, until they were shown otherwise However there can be no resolution to this As i said before it is all meaningless and there really is no point in discussing it further

re: Countdown to the Cup - Rachel Rocks the Spa

Footlick — Sat, 26 Sep 2009 03:57:09 GMT

Thanks Lazmannick for commenting before I could. There is no logic in comparisons like that. Using that same logic would mean a horse that beat Onion is better than Secretariat because Onion beat Secretariat.

RA- I don't know of another way to tell if a horse is great or "one for the ages" other than comparing them to other greats or "ones for the ages". I was introduced to racing in the 60's. People were always bringing up comparisons between horses of different years and different eras. How can you judge the greatness of a horse if you are only working in their own time capsule. Zarkava must truly be one for the ages then, because not only did she win from one mile to one mile and a half, beat older fillies and mares, beat older colts and horses, she beat them easily. Soumillon never ever pushed her to do more, because he knew he didn't have to.

She didn't break particularly well, lagged behind the field, and won as she pleased in every race she ran. She weaved her way through traffic in a huge field in the Arc, and still won as she pleased, and again with a quirky break that should have put her at a disadvantage. She defeated Goldikova twice, and Goldikova never had a chance against her. All Goldikova did when she stopped trying to beat Zarkava was beat the top European milers and dominated our Breeder's Cup.

But, she was European and she ran a European campaign. That can't possibly compare to RA. And Europeans, while thinking Zarkava was a very good filly and a dominating runner, they were not calling her one for the ages. They know she ranks with some of the best fillies and mares, but they also know that others rank higher and then there are colts and horses that rank higher. But her fields were very high class. Her Arc field was much better on the whole than the Woodward field that RA ran against. But it was just a solid fields as Arcs go. If it was considered a stellar field, Zarkava's reputation would be huge. Just my opinion.

Gun Bow-

I found your post. The thing that intruiged me more were the beyers that some of those horses reeled off before those Woodwards. Though there were some weak fields then too, I don't know whether I misjudged horses like Lemon Drop Kid and Lido Palace, Albert the Great, Behrens, etc or that the Beyer numbers are inflated. If they are not, there were quite a few of them who consistantly ran faster numbers than RA, and definately faster than what RA was running against. But then that would mean I would be comparing horses of different years-lol. I guess that will be my cross to bear.

Thanks again for reading

re: Countdown to the Cup - Rachel Rocks the Spa

RA — Fri, 25 Sep 2009 23:17:17 GMT

laz- not only did she demolish a horse that curlin barely beat but she also ran the race more than a sec faster so in my opinion - in response to footlick's statement that curlin would easily beat her- she is at the very least competitive with him Now to say that my logic is faulty is illogical - these are all just opinions here about a FANASTY race that can never have any resolution and so my opinion can never be proved to have any less validity than yours We just have to agree to disagree Remember that racetracks make their money from hundreds of people's erroneous opinions everyday and in horseracing there is no such thing as a sure thing

re: Countdown to the Cup - Rachel Rocks the Spa

Steve Haskin — Fri, 25 Sep 2009 20:21:35 GMT

1:48 1/5. 109 Beyer.

re: Countdown to the Cup - Rachel Rocks the Spa

LAZMANNICK — Fri, 25 Sep 2009 15:45:14 GMT

Rachel demolished a horse that ran a once in a lifetime race against Curlin.....Your logic that this would make her more than competitive aainst Curlin is out of line......If this particular horse ran the kind of race he ran against Curlin consistently all the time you might make some sense, but in this case it makes no sense.

re: Countdown to the Cup - Rachel Rocks the Spa

RA — Fri, 25 Sep 2009 03:54:46 GMT

footlick RA demolished a horse- past the point that curlin barely beat to win the woodward last year so in my opinion she would have no problem with curlin but that's my whole point all this who would beat who is nothing but conjecture with no possibility of validation or resolve and so is totally meaningless btw my moneys on superman

re: Countdown to the Cup - Rachel Rocks the Spa

Mary in VT — Fri, 25 Sep 2009 02:54:21 GMT

GunBow,

You were at the keyboard bright and early this morning!

Thank you for your thoughts. And I enjoy the historical perspective you deliver so well. You make a case for your point of view by letting history speak for itself.

re: Countdown to the Cup - Rachel Rocks the Spa

Ragsy — Thu, 24 Sep 2009 23:08:50 GMT

Hi Ya Steve: what was Rachel Alexandra's time in the Wordward, I think its Byers speed or something like that???

re: Countdown to the Cup - Rachel Rocks the Spa

Footlick — Thu, 24 Sep 2009 15:31:24 GMT

Hey Gun Bow-

I have to go to work, so I can't look up your post until I get home around 9pm my time. But I didn't say that their fields were better, I said that the horses I mentioned were better than what RA ran against. I think she could have beaten Lemon Drop Kid, and probably Lido Palace and River Keen, but IMHO she could not have beaten the winners that you have mentioned. And with the exception of Ghostzapper- who was a phenomenon, all of those were very good horses, but again IMHO, none of them will go down as one of the greats nor one for the ages. I just feel she has dominated horses that she outclasses, but they aren't of the highest class. It's not her fault.

Also Summer Guest ran in the Woodward as a 3yr old filly at a mile and a half I believe. She finished second but was disqualified to third. The horse who won was Key to the Mint. Don't know the rest of the field yet, but KTTM was a very good horse.

Thanks

re: Countdown to the Cup - Rachel Rocks the Spa

cardiganjack — Thu, 24 Sep 2009 15:12:03 GMT

As others have mentioned please comment on her whereabouts and her health. I hope to see her run next year but most important is that she is okay and enjoying her life. A little crazy to be so concerned about a horse I have not been able to see in person, but there's something vulnerable about her and she is loved.

re: Countdown to the Cup - Rachel Rocks the Spa

Racingfan — Thu, 24 Sep 2009 13:11:34 GMT

Any word on Rachel Steve? I have not read anything about her since the day after the race...?

re: Countdown to the Cup - Rachel Rocks the Spa

GunBow — Thu, 24 Sep 2009 10:12:38 GMT

Footlick:

In an earlier thread on Jason's blog, I went horse by horse to show that the horses Rachel beat in the Woodward were just as good as the Woodward fields Curlin(08'), Lawyer Ron(07'), Premium Tap(06'), Saint Liam(05'), Mineshaft(03'), Lido Palace(02'), Lemon Drop Kid(00'), and River Keen(99') beat. You replace those winners with Rachel, and I believe Rachel wins those Woodwards. If you doubt me, go and look up the horses than ran 2nd and 3rd in those runnings of the Woodward and tell me how they are better than Macho Again and Bullsbay.

re: Countdown to the Cup - Rachel Rocks the Spa

GunBow — Thu, 24 Sep 2009 10:00:02 GMT

da3hoss:

Busher ran against males 3 times more than Rachel did, yet won only 1 more race(Busher beat males 4 times, Rachel 3). I actually think the males Rachel has beaten this year are better than the males Busher beat. Rachel defeated the Derby winner, the Belmont-Travers winner, the Whitney winner, the Stephen Foster-New Orleans Cap winner, the Santa Anita Derby winner, the Blue Grass winner, the Secretariat winner, last year's Belmont winner, and a number of grade 2 winners(Musket Man, Munnings, Big Drama, Duke of Mischief, Papa Clem, Asiatic Boy, It's a Bird). The best male Busher defeated was Armed,a horse that eventually earned Horse of the Year honors in 1947, but who, when he faced Busher in the 45' Washington Park Cap, had won only one stakes race(the Sheridan).

re: Countdown to the Cup - Rachel Rocks the Spa

GunBow — Thu, 24 Sep 2009 09:44:25 GMT

Mary in VT:

Thanks for sharing your personal memories. Had I been at Saratoga, I have no doubt I would have been shaking as well. After the 2001 breeders Cup Classic, I literally could not feel my legs and could barely walk!

re: Countdown to the Cup - Rachel Rocks the Spa

Footlick — Thu, 24 Sep 2009 04:04:50 GMT

RA- I've learned that you can't compare times of different years. I've also learned that you can't even compare Beyers of different years because pace or lack thereof seems to compromise some Beyers. You can compare the class of the competition. And since it is my opinion that Curlin totally outclassed anything that RA has run against I would have to disagree that she wouldn't have had any problem with him. And I think Hard Spun would have given her fits. But that's what makes horse racing.

J.B.Hayes- I would love to see her go to the Japan Cup Dirt. It doesn't seem to be a choice that Mr Jackson would make though. But it would be a challenge and it would add to her glory if she won or even acquitted herself well.

re: Countdown to the Cup - Rachel Rocks the Spa

Matthew W — Thu, 24 Sep 2009 02:44:47 GMT

Steve, I just read the Sept 12th issue of The Blood Horse, and the letter from Elizabeth C. Payne struck a chord in me about the whole "Rachel Experience"....I quote her:..."This rare, beautiful, dignified athlete should not have to endure such treatment to prove she is capable of it."....Question: If Rachel were not bought by Jess, and were to never have faced off with males, would she be great?.....I mean, she'd be the same horse, right? Only cruising by twenty--But the same GREAT horse, right?...That picture, in the winners circle, all the (standing) fans....a tired, wet, head down filly, who was forced to prove what I already knew, and Jess, both arms raised, fists squeezing as if HE did it--He bought her and made her prove it, to the tune of rubber legging into eternity---Was Rachel great before the Woodward?....Was she AS great?....If Jess doesn't buy her, was Rachel AS great?...

re: Countdown to the Cup - Rachel Rocks the Spa

J.B. Hayes — Thu, 24 Sep 2009 01:44:12 GMT

Let’s try to convince Mr. Jackson to take Rachel Alexandra to the Japan Cup Dirt. The early portion of the season in the U.S. is geared more toward the three year olds, so she can have a nice long break after that race. She can then begin her campaign toward the Breeder’s Cup in 2010.

re: Countdown to the Cup - Rachel Rocks the Spa

RA — Wed, 23 Sep 2009 23:39:13 GMT

footlick- RA beat 4-yr-old curlin's time in the woodward by a sec so I don't think that she would have had any problem with him of course you can't logically compare horses from different years which have never raced together it's kinda like who would win Batman or Superman (or RA or Z)