Classic Rip Tide

re: Classic Rip Tide

Footlick — Tue, 06 Oct 2009 03:14:34 GMT

Vince- as far as Zarkava is concerned, the Aga Khan retires his champions to get them in the gene pool right away. Zarkava was unchallenged in all her races, she won pretty much as she pleased. Again, Goldikova couldn't warm her up and we know what kind of season she had. Winning an Arc in the fashion she did deserves a little more respect. I would have loved to see her train on also, but I knew because she was an Aga Khan that she wouldn't.

re: Classic Rip Tide

Footlick — Mon, 05 Oct 2009 23:01:19 GMT

Matthew- I agree with you about Beyer numbers. I've always thought they were bogus for the turf, and now I add poly surfaces to that too. And it's because for the most part they are slow paced and fast finished, unlike dirt which tends to be fast paced and slower finished. And I agree that Zenyatta will be favored in the classic unless STS runs. I wish I could feel better about Indian Blessing on poly- just think Ventura and others are better.

re: Classic Rip Tide

Footlick — Mon, 05 Oct 2009 22:56:51 GMT

Vince- I think that the connections of Gio Ponti have always been worried about 12 furlongs. And I thought he ran a really great race too, but I'm sure they are thinking about the Europeans. Remember that they didn't view a soft turf as a detriment. So when they got beat I think that it shook them a little as to running against real 12 furlong horses. I still think the turf is his best shot- but I would also like to see him in the mile.

re: Classic Rip Tide

Tim G — Mon, 05 Oct 2009 20:20:04 GMT

Hey thanks Steve. I sort of thought he wasn't that type but really couldn't recall. I appreciate you finding the time to do that.

Vince I saw the call, the commentary and the repeat of it on The Finish Line. Not sure where you can download it though. I had to watch it several times to have it sink it. He came from 15 lengths BACK?????

I hope he runs next year. If he does, I hope if it's not in Ameerica then in Ireland, make a trip back to watch him for sure.

re: Classic Rip Tide

Steve — Mon, 05 Oct 2009 18:09:10 GMT

Tim G - no Mine That Bird is not known for his bullets. I looked up his works from January to May. The only bullet he had in the whole time frame was when he was one of only two horses who worked on that day. Otherwise his best work was 5 out of 29 a few weeks before the Borderland Derby (he finished second in the race).

He's usually mid range with his works, but he's been among the slowest more often than he's among the fastest.

re: Classic Rip Tide

Matthew W — Mon, 05 Oct 2009 17:06:29 GMT

The only horse who would be favored over Zenyatta in the Classic is Sea the Stars--That includes Summer Bird, Gio Ponti, Einstein as well as Rachel Alexandra--I say this to illustrate the fact that the Beyer #'s are bogus on synthetics--leave the rankings to the oddsmakers---including College Football....But OH, to see See The Stars at Santa Anita---at least they got Gio Ponti and Rip Van Winkle, along with The Birds...I like Richards Kid/Baffert---Baffert's carrying a loaded hand this year--Looking At Lucky, Zensational, Richards Kid, Indian Blessing are all peaking at the right time...

re: Classic Rip Tide

Vince — Sun, 04 Oct 2009 22:56:40 GMT

anyone see the arc de triomphe? fantastic performance by sea the stars. left em for dead with 300 yards to go. simply magnificent. I have seen all arcs since 1971 and that ranks up with the best of them - mill reef, rheingold, trempelino, peintre celebre, sinndar, sakhee, zarvaka. but put that on top of what he has already done this year, won most of the top group 1 races from 1m to 1m 4f every month from may to october and you have one of all the all-time great european horses.

unfortunately, as tim g predicted, they seem to want to miss the bc classic - gone in his coat, very tired, etc. real shame. still, if he is tired and over the top, I don't mind. but they must stop saying he has nothing more to prove. horses always have something more to prove. maybe cigar didn't at the end of his career. but this is a three year old. it was only 12 months ago that the aga khan was saying zarkava had nothing more to prove -after winning one race against older horses of both sexes. well, what aout running against sea the stars? that might just have proved something. however, sts has had a long hard season and I wouldn't blame them if they didn't turn up at the bc. but christ if they did, hats off and more!!!

on a side note: footlick: is it true they are swaying towards the bc classic with gio ponti after lsoing in the bog at belmont yesterday? what's going on? thought he ran a tremendous race under the conditions. just too far in the mud, that's all. santa anita will be nice and firm and short.

don't know if I am allowed to or indeed if I am technically capable of posting a video on here but here goes, a view from the stands of sea the stars win. and finally, is there a video of the race with american commentary about? would be most grateful.

www.youtube.com/watch

re: Classic Rip Tide

Footlick — Sun, 04 Oct 2009 17:10:08 GMT

Sea the Stars just runs and wins. The Arc was no problem for him. As us al, he just runs his race and wins. Amazing horse

re: Classic Rip Tide

KAT — Sun, 04 Oct 2009 02:39:54 GMT

MTB worked 1/2 in 48 at Rud and 47.4 in Alb.

Those 2 moving up down the stretch would be a sight. . . LOL

re: Classic Rip Tide

Matthew W — Sun, 04 Oct 2009 01:29:54 GMT

Steve I just saw the Cal Cup Classic---PLEASE can we change venue to Belmont--I'm a West Coaster, want to see Zenyatta, Zensational prove it on a safe track! God help us all!

re: Classic Rip Tide

Matthew W — Sun, 04 Oct 2009 01:14:27 GMT

berttheclock--Paster had the biggest kick of any cal bred I've seen--still to this day---NOT a 1 1/4, he was a closer at a mile, and to me, that was his best distance...I saw his two length win over Doonsbury and King Go Go, the San Antonio at 1 1/8...before his Big Cap hang job to John Henry in 1981...Paster was 6-5 in a 14 horse field that included John Henry, King Go Go and Doonsbury---A head-turner of a blood-bay....The East Coast is totally oblivious to any of this, but Flying Paster was bred to sprint, and he had one of the best turns of foot and could sustain it--I imagine he couldda owned most Met Miles--there are few horses besides Bid whom I would take over him at a mile...

re: Classic Rip Tide

Karen2 — Sun, 04 Oct 2009 01:13:52 GMT

Tim G... I agree with you about Sea the Stars....He is a monster.

re: Classic Rip Tide

Matthew W — Sun, 04 Oct 2009 01:04:10 GMT

SoCal shippers showed that while the tracks are bogus--the horses aren't! Same trainers, same quality horses, Misremembered had equal Beyers on synthetics--surely a handicapping tool these days ala I Want Revenge, since the Beyers are bogus on fake stuff--"he" simply cannot understand the way races are run out here/cannot compute off his dirt methods, just like those awful DRF #'s to compute the best horses...Beyers are low??? Anybody besides Sea the Stars favored over Zenyatta at Santa Anita? Let the oddsmakers rank them---Summer Bird is the best horse in the country this year at 1 1/4, bar none! I had him on top to win/and a one way exacta with the Tiznow horse---nice try but Quality Road is all that----"forgive me" but they BOTH beat Rachel today---and PLEASE with the "world's fastest pace" of her Woodward, the Whitney pace was faster, I saw it on Macho Again's PP's---by the way, is the Macho Man off the track yet?...

re: Classic Rip Tide

Tim G — Sat, 03 Oct 2009 17:23:31 GMT

It’s just my opinion on this horse of course. But, I got a video of Mine That Bird working at the Downs both times, from a relative. He looked in no distress, like he was enjoying life. Also got the recording of the TV weather guy hanging out with the little guy and he was laid back.(not the weather guy, he was pretty excited). That track isn't known for fast works and really I was trying to recall if MTB has had many bullets? Would have to research back over all his past works in the old forms etc.

You probably know, being from that area that a lot of the race horses there are broke better than any of the ones from the East. BUT getting him late in his 2 year old season? That had to be the previous folks that broke him.

I DO know that Chip had said that the gelding after the long layoff was a little too rank in the WV and Mike let him go up towards the front rather than fighting him.

THAT does concern me for the Goodwood but that may resolve any issue of rankness for the BC, just about right. Some that I know have spoken to Chip and Leonard and they seemed to like the way he was training in NM, kind of like the high altitude training first at Ruidoso then a bit less at ALB.

However, I'm really concerned about the surface there at SA.

Sure he had his running style adjusted but I wonder if he won't want to take the bit and run, making the rankness, front running style rear its ugly head. I don't think he quite has the malleable, disciplined style of that other come from behind horse, Zenyatta, down pat yet.

Calvin back on him may help but I’m going to be watching to see what speed is doing out there on the Left coast. I don’t think I’m the only one watching that this weekend.

In my opinion? What he did there last year just was lousy. I don't care WHAT his running style was, he regressed immensely in that race.

Frankly IF Sea the Stars comes here for the BC? I fear all is for naught for any of the US horses.

Man can you guys imagine though, Zenyatta and Mine That Bird (if he’s fully recovered and on form). What a duel that’ll be coming down the stretch as the two make their move from the back. Although it may look like a mom with her ‘too late weaned’ yearling out for a run. Considering the disparity in size between the two.

re: Classic Rip Tide

Footlick — Sat, 03 Oct 2009 04:16:43 GMT

mz- I am so jealous that you have been there. I've heard that the Prix d'Abbaye is unwatchable because of that. And your story of the altercation is just so French. I'd also like to see Deauville and Chantilly. O don't see anybody beating Sea the Stars this year, but I decided to go with Vision d'Etat and hope he's peaking right now. Fabre supposedly isn't that high on Cavalryman, but we have heard that before- too many times. And he looks like he goes the distance well. Stacelita seems bred to like the distance but I've heard grumblings that she doesn't want to go quite that far. Dar Re Mi is in great form, as well as Fame and Glory. But so far Sea the Stars has his number. And Rainbow View is going in the Opera? Then supposedly here?

re: Classic Rip Tide

Footlick — Sat, 03 Oct 2009 01:50:14 GMT

Matthew- Loved all those fillies, but especially Turkish Trousers and Typecast. What great racing that was.

re: Classic Rip Tide

Footlick — Sat, 03 Oct 2009 01:48:31 GMT

Hey Laz- I thought of all of those except Waya because I consider her French and she was successful before she came here and Tiller. I didn't remember Tiller as a distance horse.... duh. Maybe I was thinking of Topsider??? I also realize that I have mentioned some geldings and they can't run in the Arc if I'm not mistaken. Group 1 races are not open to geldings. So much for them. I loved Bowl Game. Ran every race and always in the hunt. What about Johnny D? Was he a gelding. Mac was a wonderful distance horse too. All of those qwew top notch at quite a few distances too.

re: Classic Rip Tide

Footlick — Sat, 03 Oct 2009 01:39:59 GMT

Cowboy- I hope you don't mind if I chime in. I remember when I started following racing in the early 60's, trainers ran horses 7 furlongs to get them in shape. And throughout thoroughbred history, horses have worked a variety of distances. Many horses were worked the distance they had to run, especially if it was a distance like 10 furlongs. Trainers now for the most part don't do it anymore. I feel it's because the breed isn't as stoutly bred here in the US as they were then, but I could be wrong. As far as MP racing a week before the Derby, Longden was an old time type of guy and I think he knew MP had no competition in that race. So it really as a workout per say.

Thanks for letting me comment, Cowboy Bob

re: Classic Rip Tide

Footlick — Sat, 03 Oct 2009 01:33:31 GMT

Vince- watched a few handicapping vids, and they were in love with taking a chance on Youmzain for the price. they were split on vision d'Etat, some thinking the trip is just a little too long.

re: Classic Rip Tide

Vince — Fri, 02 Oct 2009 22:20:06 GMT

tim g

not exactly sure what the plans are for sea the stars. no doubt they will make a final decision after the arc, depending on the outcome of course.

footlick

vision d'etat is generally a 12/1 shot and getaway is the only german runner. you are right, youmzain is not in the same form as last year but it's too late. I have already taken the 25/1 win/place. if you have any doubts about sea the stars regarding the long season, the ground or the 1m 4f trip, then there are some really amaziong prices available on the other horses.

re: Classic Rip Tide

Cowboy Bob — Fri, 02 Oct 2009 15:19:19 GMT

STEVE HASKIN: Thank you for letting me move off topic somewhat and carry on a debate of sorts with TIM G. I want to move off track again and ask you and TIM G.about this observation. I love Mind That Bird but I am worried. Two reasons: I have been riding little Mustang mares for years and love small horses. MTB is broke. Many racehorses are not. His works look like they are tip toeing around. If MTB jumps in the bridle right out of the gate because he is fresh he is done. He needs to gallop around behind the crowd on a loose rein, relaxed until the boy throws the switch. Do you remember when LJ worked Foolish Pleasure in 44 before the match race. I recall CW working a colt a 1 1/4 in 2:02. Goldikova worked 7 furlongs for a 7 furlong upcoming race last week. This horse has been on vacation. Majestic Prince ran a race the week before the Derby as a workout. Over and over again I see these trainers slacking up or letting to much time between races with no stout works. Recent example would be Gozzip Girl and Big Brown last year with some mitigating circumstances. TB racing is a sickness and I have trying for years to stay away but the MTB. Stardom Bounds and Goldikova suck you back in. TIM G. and Steve please comment.

re: Classic Rip Tide

mz — Fri, 02 Oct 2009 15:15:09 GMT

Footlick: I went to Paris for three years in a row on Arc weekend (I was able to coincide my holidays with the race) and I loved the Prix de l'Abbaye too. The weird thing at Longchamp (which is just probably a usual European thing) is that the race starts across the infield way far away from the stands, runs straight across from the start about a football field away in front of the stands and behind a grove of trees, and ends across the infield way far away from the stands. All you really get to see is a cavalry charge straight across the horizon -- usually, there are about 1 million horses all running in that race (at least that's what it seemed like to me).

Anyways, I was there one year when Knob Hill Farms, a Canadian outfit, sent over Zadracarta, our champion sprinter, and she was atlooonnnggggg odds. Naturally, I bet on her to win. The race charged across the course and when it was all over, she finished second. By a nose.

(I also have fond memories of fighting with a French bettor as we stood in line and tried to get a bet down on the Arc. The windows closed before we got there. After all the multilingual comments about each other in the line up, the Frenchman said: "Quel dommage!" (too bad) and hugged me and kissed me on both cheeks.

That's Longchamp on Arc weekend. I wanna make it back one year.

re: Classic Rip Tide

LAZMANNICK — Fri, 02 Oct 2009 15:06:03 GMT

Footlick:

Several others that might have done well in the Arc:

Mac Diarmida – won 12 of 16 including the DC International and the Lawrence Realization at 1-1/2M in pretty good times, and the Canadian International at 1-5/8M. He defeated among others: John Henry, Waya and Tiller.

Tiller – he won the Sword Dancer at 1-1/2M and the San Juan Capistrano at 1-3/4M. He defeated among others: Excellor, Noble Dancer and finished ahead of Waya.

Bowl Game – He won 11 of 23 with 6 seconds and five thirds. He won the Pan American Hdcp., the Turf Classic, the Arlington Hdcp., and the DC International all at 1-1/2M on the turf. In addition, he also won the Man ‘o War at 1-3/8M.

Waya was also fantastic taking on the boys numerous times and defeating the likes of Mac Diarmida and Tiller in the ’78 Man ‘o War and the Turf Classic, and then finishing third to them in the DC International. She was French-bred and had a successful start to her career before coming to the U.S.A.

re: Classic Rip Tide

berttheclock — Fri, 02 Oct 2009 12:46:09 GMT

Matthew W, as a friend said after trying to beat The Bid with Flying Paster, "They could run on dirt, on turf, on concrete or at the beach and The Bid would still win".

However, one of my fondest memories was standing by the rail near the winner's circle at SA and watching Paster come down the lane. Eddie D started to pass him on King Go Go. I swear Paster's right eye became huge and he glared at the King with a "Not today, fella", picked himself up and hurled his nose across the finish line just a fraction of an inch ahead of the King. Funny thing about the Bid and Paster. Paster became a far better sire.

re: Classic Rip Tide

Matthew W — Fri, 02 Oct 2009 05:54:48 GMT

I was at the track/in the saddling barn for the 1972 Santa Margarita....I had 9-2 on the winner, Turkish Trousers,with Shoe coming up the rail with that beautiful (small) black filly---over Typecast, Convenience, Manta, Street Dancer--all within a length for the win....after beating Cougar on Memorial Day, Typecast dropped down to 1 1/8, match race cond vs Convenience, track paid 50k and Leonard Lavin and Glen Hill & Fletcher Jones and Westerly Stud ponied up 100K each, that was why you cared--because they cared and it showed! Typecast beat the cream of the crop on turf, male or female as well as on dirt vs fillies that year....