Countdown to the Cup - Beyond the Sea...a Bird

re: Countdown to the Cup - Beyond the Sea...a Bird

LEON — Wed, 21 Oct 2009 18:03:05 GMT

The best idea I have read so far regarding how to keep horses in training instead of having them retired before the end of their 3 or 4-year-old campaign is this one:

Tax the stud fees of those stallions that are younger than 5 years of age, and channel such tax revenue to purses in the state or country where the stallions are serving.

A horse such as Sea The Stars was retired at his peak, after just a handful of races, to the detriment of the sport, the same way Smarty Jones, Bernardini and others have been retired.

Theses horses commanded stud fees that average around $100,000; if bred to 100 mares, that's a cool $10 mill. If a stud is only 3, tax the revenue by, let's say, 40%. That would mean $4,000,000 to be channeled to purses. Lower the tax to 30% if they start at the breeding shed before they turn 5, and there would be no tax if they are retired when they are in fact 5.

This way, there would be a better balance between purses and breeding earnings, that should result in keeping horseracing stars in training longer.

Someone named Paul in DRF suggested this idea...What do you think Mr. Haskin?

re: Countdown to the Cup - Beyond the Sea...a Bird

lazaro — Tue, 20 Oct 2009 07:28:27 GMT

have no fear. the americans will have all they can handle with the europeans as it stands!

re: Countdown to the Cup - Beyond the Sea...a Bird

Racingfan — Sun, 18 Oct 2009 23:34:10 GMT

Draynay: like your top 5 list too.

re: Countdown to the Cup - Beyond the Sea...a Bird

Footlick — Fri, 16 Oct 2009 20:24:53 GMT

Tim- I'm sorry if I did not make myself clear. I never said he was not a graded winning horse. I would consider him a gr1 placed horse even though he did win the Derby, though. I never said he was not a graded horse. And, there are quite a few gr1 placed/gr2 winners who earn alot of money but are not considered top drawer. But since I'm not in the business, I guess I don't know.

Thanks for pointing out my shortcomings as far as my knowledge of horse racing is concerned. But, maybe I did phrase my statements correctly and they were just misinterpreted? But I will certainly remember that I am not a "we" in racing.

re: Countdown to the Cup - Beyond the Sea...a Bird

Tim G — Fri, 16 Oct 2009 20:03:08 GMT

I’ll try to be nicer Steve.

Draynay I don't think you have the correct concept of racing. Yes it's about attempting to WIN but there is ONLY one winner. You yourself have praised horses for hitting the board in a stakes race.

Maybe from a gamblers perspective , WINNING the bet is THE only thing.

From an owners/trainers/jockeys perspective? A stakes PLACED horse is something that most of us are thrilled to have and are a rarity.

Reasonable people consider him consistent. He's a hard knocker in stakes races.

Your dislike of the horse is overkill..

I guess if you really believe what you say then the connections of YOUR current favorite should have bagged it with her after her second loss in a G111 and her 3rd overall?

Based on your analysis of MTB, conversely she should have been running in Allowances at best. See how strange that sounds?

She finished 2nd in two G111's , at least MTB finished on the board in G1's and a G2, so does that make her not worthy of stakes company? I can't even make that comment with a straight face.

The answer to your question? You don't drop him down as long as he's hitting the board and is healthy and liking to run. It's not like he has the capacity to reason and say to himself “my gosh I didn't win I need to go beat my head against a wall“.

He ran okay off a layoff, needed the race and went back to the barn, chowed down was bucking and playing the next day. YOU are obsessed with it.

When they need to drop him down? If he loses badly in more than one race. But, IMHO, that's when they should just retire him. Why? People like you would find a new way to disrespect him.

That 'win only' mentality is what inspires certain guys in racing to try to get ANY edge they can. I guess the difference between us is thinking only coming in first makes a horse worthy of running in stakes company. The hole in that theory? Pretty soon you‘d have no competition because EVENTUALLY ALL races have only ONE winner.

re: Countdown to the Cup - Beyond the Sea...a Bird

Tim G — Fri, 16 Oct 2009 18:55:34 GMT

Footlick, if a horse is consistently stakes placed and earning money each time out? Then yes we in racing DO consider them a graded stakes horse.

It's not like he won the Derby and then ran off the board and lousy in his last few races trailing the field.

WINNING each time is NOT what makes a stakes horse. And yes money DOES have something to do with it because he's been placing high enough in Graded stakes company and therefore winning enough money to keep him there.

re: Countdown to the Cup - Beyond the Sea...a Bird

LAZMANNICK — Fri, 16 Oct 2009 17:11:22 GMT

Draynay

How many G-1 races did Bullsboy and Macho Again win? They're true G-1 horses aren't they? They must be to validate Rachel's win against G-1 older males.....MTB isn't a consistent G-1 winner, but he IS a true G-1 winner in the G-1 race that is toughest for 3 y-o's to win because of the distance and the quality of the competition so early in the year.....He will win a G-1 race again, probably more than one, but he isn't, at least not yet, the type that is going to rattle off 2 or 3 G-1's in a row.....Last time I looked, Rail Trip has only won one G-1 race too, so has Quality Road who has been in two G-1 races since hs G-1 win, so has Careless Jewel....Your arguement is similar to your argument against Zenyatta only with a different flare.....Cut the horse some slack.

re: Countdown to the Cup - Beyond the Sea...a Bird

Draynay — Fri, 16 Oct 2009 15:48:00 GMT

You're right Tim G what were we thinking. Keep throwing him into G1 and G2 races and watch him lose again and again. I said after the Derby his win was a fluke and he wouldn't win another race all year. Hmmm guess I was 100% correct. Let me just ask you one simple question. How many more losses before you drop him down? 2 more races ? 4 more races ? How many more ?

re: Countdown to the Cup - Beyond the Sea...a Bird

Footlick — Fri, 16 Oct 2009 13:52:49 GMT

I may be wrong, but I don't think the amount of money won determines whether you are really a true Gr1 horse or not. Mine That Bird reminds me of Dark Star and Dust Commander, to mention two Derby winners. If you feel they were true Gr1 winners, then that's fine. I'm not dissing him or any other horse. But I guess I have to now sub-define as lesser and greater gr1 winners. There is nothing wrong with a horse who really isn't gr1, but can jump up occasionally and run a big race at that level. He won the Derby and ran a great race in the Preakness. He closed well in the Goodwood. And it seems to be a prep. But it was not as tough a field as the BC Classic will be. I'm not sure even a repeat of his Derby will be good enough to win the Classic. But we will see.

re: Countdown to the Cup - Beyond the Sea...a Bird

Tim G — Fri, 16 Oct 2009 03:23:13 GMT

Let me correct that figure, he's made 2.2 million + in his career.

If any of you who are dissing him made 1.9 mil this year so far? Well........ yes sure you have.

re: Countdown to the Cup - Beyond the Sea...a Bird

Tim G — Fri, 16 Oct 2009 03:20:41 GMT

FINALLY, glad to see some sense displayed by some people, very refreshing.

It's fine to love certain horses, but to make these bizarre statements to justify that 'love', once again I just don't get where they're heads are. Certainly not in a race horse owners mindset.

I'm going to bet that very few folks on here, or even in racing would turn this little guy down as a stakes placed horse.

I can't imagine the people dissing MTB have even SEEN a million dollars. Guess what? Unless you're in a field where you can make a ton of money? You won't see 1.8 million in your LIFETIME earnings.

YOUR life in a career is going to be a lot longer than 2 years of racing.

Even those of us with good incomes will take 4, 5 or 6 years to earn THAT much.

re: Countdown to the Cup - Beyond the Sea...a Bird

Matthew W — Fri, 16 Oct 2009 02:46:48 GMT

Mine That Bird was closing--he vanned in from Riodoso---PREPPED in the Goodwood--NEEDED that race!....6-1 at least on the Derby Winner! Can you say Unbridled? The extra 1/8 is telling and I'll probably keep an eye on the little guy when many of them hit that proverbial wall at the 1/16 pole!

re: Countdown to the Cup - Beyond the Sea...a Bird

LAZMANNICK — Fri, 16 Oct 2009 02:02:40 GMT

Anyone know where to find more non-grade-one horses? Please, please let me know. My bankroll is getting kind of low.....I could use an extra 1.8 mill.

re: Countdown to the Cup - Beyond the Sea...a Bird

Matthew W — Fri, 16 Oct 2009 00:54:15 GMT

Mine That Bird BELONGS in The Classic! He WON the Kentucky Derby by six---meaning he GET'S the distance, something you cannot really say about 1/2, or even most of the field--C'mon, "put him where he belongs"??? He belongs in The Breeders Cup Classic!!!

re: Countdown to the Cup - Beyond the Sea...a Bird

Karen2 — Thu, 15 Oct 2009 22:19:37 GMT

I'm with Tim G...Lord, please also bless me with a non grade 1 horse..just like MTB!

re: Countdown to the Cup - Beyond the Sea...a Bird

Tim G — Thu, 15 Oct 2009 18:16:48 GMT

Lord, please bless me with a 'non Grade 1' horse like Mine That Bird!

1.8 million plus in purses and he's not a G1? I'm not sure how much longer I or for that matter ANYONE in the industry, can listen to people who don't own horses and don't realize how much that helps an owners operation (since most racing at that level have a lot more than just one horse) spout that nonsense.

More money earned by a horse, more money to pay the BILLS. More money to buy more horses to run for you fans enjoyment.

If the gelding were running up the track and losing by embarrassing margins? The argument would be valid. BUT he's finished no worse than 3rd in the 3 G1's and the G2 he's run in starting with the Derby, until the Goodwood. He had been off TEN weeks prior to that race and ANYONE who actually knows anything about racing, knows that MOST horses would be granted a bit of forgiveness as coming off a layoff.

ANYONE who says he isn't a G1 horse? They have never owned a race horse, trained a race horse or ridden a race horse who is IN training. Heck they've never even hotwalked, groomed, bathed or cleaned the stall of one on the track.

It's utter nonsense to make that statement about Mine That Bird and frankly, shows ignorance and arrogance. I'm embarrassed for you people saying that.

Check with someone on a THHOROUGHBRED race track to see if they agree with you guys, or even someone retired FROM a THOROUGHBRED race track.

re: Countdown to the Cup - Beyond the Sea...a Bird

Steve — Thu, 15 Oct 2009 18:14:36 GMT

If MTB were my horse I'd take him back to Churchill to race. I think he's probably a horse for course. Not just because it's the only track he won on this year, but also because his trainer has repeatedly said that he trains best there and seems to perk up when he goes back there after traveling.

I think he'd stand a much better chance in the Clark Handicap this fall instead of the BCC. But since that won't happen I hope to see him in the Stephen Foster next year with Borel aboard.

re: Countdown to the Cup - Beyond the Sea...a Bird

LDP — Thu, 15 Oct 2009 09:53:15 GMT

The fact is that he is not WINNING the races. I he had gotten close in his last three, maybe MTB would have a case but he was non threatening thirds and a sixth in his last three. That is not competitive. If I were a trainer I'd be putting him in spots where he had a good spot at winning, not a sure thing, but a place where he can run and run competitively. Those are grade three grade two races. He's a good horse, but if he is not in really really good form he is not a grade one horse, he is when he is on form, no doubt about that. Right now though he is not in that fantastic form he was in the spring, he's just in "good" form, which need to be recognizied, so he can be put into lower level stakes, so he can win and probably get some confidence back.

re: Countdown to the Cup - Beyond the Sea...a Bird

Householder — Wed, 14 Oct 2009 23:13:34 GMT

I thought I heard Borel say that Mine that Bird needed to get back to the correct surface or something like that during his post interview loss. A few days later the word is that he is going to have "stickers" or "cleats" on his two back shoes. Interesting...I just can't see this horse running well against older on that track.

re: Countdown to the Cup - Beyond the Sea...a Bird

Tim G — Tue, 13 Oct 2009 22:27:10 GMT

I could see if someone was truly concerned with Mine That Bird continuing to run if the horse were ill or unsound. I could see it IF that person truly CARED about the horse.

The past history proves that the person complaining the loudest does not care one bit about the horse himself.

Just because he hasn't won, he's still stakes placed and that is worth a lot of money AND he loves to run.

Why drop him down when he is still competitive in G1's? Just because a person who has no financial or emotional interest in him SAYS to? Because that person obviously has an underlying agenda? It just comes off as sour grapes. He beat you in the Derby, you lost your shirt on him. Not the first time, not the last. Get over it, ignore him, move on with YOUR life and let the people who pay for the groceries worry about it.

re: Countdown to the Cup - Beyond the Sea...a Bird

MikeM — Tue, 13 Oct 2009 16:51:55 GMT

Stay down Dray stay down.Your comments are laughable.

re: Countdown to the Cup - Beyond the Sea...a Bird

schabelli — Tue, 13 Oct 2009 16:47:39 GMT

nay nay,

You could say the same type of things about Smooth Air (who you have stood by after repeated dissapointments in G1 races)as you say about MTB except Smooth Air never won a G1 race or one as important as the KY Derby. Sometimes you are puzzling how you berate one horse but argue for another under near the same circumstances. I guess with you it's all about the arguing with others.

re: Countdown to the Cup - Beyond the Sea...a Bird

Draynay — Tue, 13 Oct 2009 14:39:08 GMT

MTB is not a G1 horse and can no longer be protected in restricted 3 year old races. He must now face older horses and he has not proven he can beat 3 year old horses. One win in 7 attempts proves he got lucky once. He was never a threat for a win since the Derby. The Preakness was a nice second but never came close to winning the race. Horses like Summer Bird have improved and MTB has not. He got the perfect ride on a tiring mud surface and won the Derby. But that was back in May and since then has done nothing to suggest he is an elite horse. They can throw this horse into all the G1 races they want and pretend he has a shot but the true experts know he really doesn't have a shot. How many more races does he have to lose before he is dropped down to get a win and get his confidence back ? It is not MTB's fault. I blame the connections that keep coming up with excuses and then find reason to throw him into the fire again. It's like watching a prize fighter that keeps getting up only to get knocked down again and again. Stay down MTB stay down I can't watch anymore.

re: Countdown to the Cup - Beyond the Sea...a Bird

Linda in Texas — Tue, 13 Oct 2009 13:09:58 GMT

Just now reading on Bloodhorse.com that Sea The Stars is being retired to stud and he is so young. So this ends all

speculation. He retires a winner!

And we will never know what could/might have been.

re: Countdown to the Cup - Beyond the Sea...a Bird

Vince — Tue, 13 Oct 2009 12:49:36 GMT

sea the stars officially retired, tuesday, october, 13.