Royal Ascot a Tonic for U.S. Woes

re: Royal Ascot a Tonic for U.S. Woes

Secretation — Wed, 25 Jun 2008 19:42:24 GMT

Johnny, Thanks for the response. I know there are others here in the States that are aware of the rich history of horses across the pond. But it's sad that so much of what is published here seems to ignore them. I love the book "Thoroughbred Champions" and I understand that it was intended to profile the 100 greatest American horses of the 20th century, but it doesn't say "American." I think it's essential reading for fans of the sport, but I can understand how the Brits fell a bit slighted by its title. Julian Wilson's book may have left out some important American runners, but at least he put some of our best in there.

Also, I totally agree with you regarding Phar Lap. Cynthia was referencing racing across the pond, but Australia has Phar Lap, Bernborough, Tulloch, Carbine, Gloaming and Kingston Town in its history. I would put Phar Lap up in the top 5 of all time.

Regarding Sea Bird's high rating in spite of few starts, it illustrates one of the key differences between our sport and theirs. If you look at a list of the top 100 European horses, you'll find that only about 20% raced as many as 20 times. Many of them far less. In our list of 100 only about 20% didn't run 20 times or more. They run their best in classic races to determine breeding prospects, where we historically have run for purses and accumulated earnings. Really what we're seeing now is a shift to a more European paradigm in that sense, but with a decidedly American tendency to oversaturate the market looking for the quick buck. I think in Europe they're still working toward the betterment of the breed.

That's just my take.

re: Royal Ascot a Tonic for U.S. Woes

GunBow — Wed, 25 Jun 2008 16:16:32 GMT

There have been durable "war horses" since John Henry: Best Pal, The Tin Man, Lava Man, Perfect Drift, and Funny Cide to a lesser extent. Of course all have been geldings. Even so, their long careers required great patience from owners and trainers. There was no real reason for Lava Man's connection to bring him back this year, especially after his poor form. Yet, knowing the popularity of the horse in Cali, they did bring him back and they were rewarded with another grade 1 placing. We need more in the industry to realize that there are indeed rewards beyond high stud fees. Lava Man has achieved a level of popularity many thought was impossible today and has accomplished feats of glory that truly make comparisons to Seabiscuit valid. Unfortunately his inability to win outside Cali makes him largely a regional phenom. For those outside of Cali, attending a Lava Man race was like rolling the clock back to a time when horse owners were sportsmen, horses were warriors, and fans developed personal connections to their equine heroes.

re: Royal Ascot a Tonic for U.S. Woes

berttheclock@comcast.net — Wed, 25 Jun 2008 12:43:16 GMT

Steve, thanks for this thread - Racing at it's finest, eh?

And, in the post by Secretation, two horses mentioned, Brigadier Gerard and Ribot, both found in the foundation of the late Lord at War - One of the finest duels ever was at Del Mar with the Shoe aboard the Lord - Half mile nose to nose duel with Lord prevailing by the thinnest of margins.

Wish more coverage had been given to the tremendous battle in the either '92 or '93 San Juan Capistrano, at about a mile and three quarters - Kotashaan, Bien Bien, and one other Grade I champion - Mind fogs - They were locked tightly at a mile and a quarter, when Bien Bien and Kotashaan surged to the front and raced, with barely a nostril separating them for the last half mile - Whittingham used to talk about the time needed for a horse to recover from that race, although, some have surfaced in early June at HP.

But, one of my favorite type of racing, was the old marathon series at Longacres - Conditions were for, I believe, no more than 20,000 claimers - So, all of the old bred long, short on speed guys would conduct a series of races from 12F up to 14F over a month a half period - But, this was at racing region, where many trainers thought six and a half was a distance race - Plus, it was also a place of the Mark Hannas of racing to commence whipping from the gate and never stop.

And, now, if we could rid ourselves of having post parade ponies - Loved seeing John Gosden lead some of his finest horses onto the track by himself.

re: Royal Ascot a Tonic for U.S. Woes

Johnny — Wed, 25 Jun 2008 03:17:30 GMT

I've always felt Citation was the greatest racehorse, but that's just my own personal opinion.

Secretation, please be assured that international horses are recognized and easily belong with any of the best Americans. You probably know that Morris and Randall's Timeform rating of the 200 greatest horses of the 20th Century had Sea-Bird on top, Secretariat #2, Citation #5, and Spectacular Bid at #9. The great Italian runner Ribot was #3. I don't agree with the fact that they dropped Man o'War so far down, and also don't know where in their ranking Kelso and Dr. Fager are either. However, Sea-Bird's #1 ranking with a rating of 145, albeit only 8 career starts, is one I'm not sure I agree with or not, but I certainly understand it. His 1965 win in the Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe was a nonpareil performance. And greatness does not always require career longevity, although it generally goes hand-in-hand.

Another of the greatest horses in my opinion was Phar Lap. As you said, "...great horses are great horses..." And I'll always recognize them, no matter where they're from.

re: Royal Ascot a Tonic for U.S. Woes

Richie — Wed, 25 Jun 2008 03:02:44 GMT

I first went to races at Fairhill many years ago and learned to love the long distance runners. I started going to races just after Kelso so never had the thrill of watching him win 5 JC Gold Cups when it was at 2 miles but I visited him many times at Woodstock. I also loved going to the International at Laurel--I guess it will never happen again but wouldn't it be a treat to have more long distance races here and more great horses run in them as they used to. Btw, I have read your great book on "Kelly" 3 or 4 times and still get goosebumps reading about his races. Thanks for a great ride!!!! Your great love of our sport shows through in all your writing!!

re: Royal Ascot a Tonic for U.S. Woes

Garrett Redmond — Wed, 25 Jun 2008 02:33:20 GMT

May I take more space to answer "needler in VA" on the issue of whips?

"needler" needs to understand Steve Haskin moderates the debate. McCririck and his views on whipping were in the original article, so why isn't this the forum?

I don't want to talk down to needler, but, it is pretty obvious his riding has been limited to pleasure horses. In that situation there are times when in the education of a horse a whip may be sensibly and humanely employed. Use of the whip in racing is an entirely different matter. I know. I rode races more than sixty years ago (that is right - 60 years).

In racing, the whip is used only to urge the horse to greater effort. Jockeys get carried away and flog a horse when it is clearly doing it's best. Racehorses give of their best naturally. It is a rare horse that sulks and holds back it's best effort.

In racing, use of the whip generally causes a horse to move away from the punishment. Watch the head-on videos and you will see what I mean. The whip does not keep a horse on a straight course. Surely everyone recalls Frankie Dettori flogging Swain with his left hand, causing Swain to move almost into the grandstand and thereby lose the Breeders' Cup Classic. There is NO place for a whip and flogging in horseracing.

Today, I was delighted to see the Delaware Park stewards suspended Jeremy Rose for six months for flogging a horse. We need more suspensions.

The Jockey Club has no power to ban the whip - the suggestion indicates some ignorance about who rules racing in the USA. The only thing TJC can ban is our right to free speech - anyway, that is what our Courts have ruled.

re: Royal Ascot a Tonic for U.S. Woes

Secretation — Wed, 25 Jun 2008 00:34:46 GMT

Cheryl, There are indeed some of us Americans who appreciate racing in Britain and Europe and who recognize that names like Ribot, Sea Bird, Mill Reef, Brigadier Gerard, Nijinsky, Dancing Brave, Shergar, Peintre Celebre and a host of others belong in the same conversations with Secretariat, Citation, Man O' War, Kelso, Dr. Fager, etc. as the greatest racehorses in history. Your racing is different, but great horses are great horses and its too bad some people are so quick to dismiss what they don't understand.

Steve, Thanks for your response. It will be fun to see what else Henry can accomplish in his career.

re: Royal Ascot a Tonic for U.S. Woes

Taxman — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 22:15:10 GMT

Royal Ascot is awesome, but those of us without a TVG account could not play it here in the USA. Why can't ALL of the phone/internet companies get on the same page and give us all what we want - quality racing all over the world. Oh yeah, Memo to Churchill Downs, I have not missed playing your races after Derby Day since you and your horsemen can't figure out how to split your monies you are making on us home bettors. But, I digress. Someone please give us all Ascot, Goodwood, Hong Kong, Japan, etc. all the time on all outlets!

re: Royal Ascot a Tonic for U.S. Woes

Johnny — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 17:11:15 GMT

I think it's a good idea to have a Breeders' Cup race at 12 furlongs, although for the first few years of its running, I wonder what kind of fields we'll see, especially with the BC Classic at 10 furlongs. There are very few horses that can go 1 1/2 miles on dirt, and other countries generally run that distance on turf. It seems that to have the Classic and the Marathon on the same day would either result in a very small Marathon field or spreading both races quite thin. I suspect the former. However, within a few years the race will become graded, assuming it's popular enough, and then maybe it will encourage breeders to put put some stamina into future generations. Depending on the venue, the synthetics should help encourage this as well. I don't necessarily think we need a lot of these shorter sprint-type races though. I can't remember how many there actually are, but, for my tastes, the longer the better.

Yes, the word "Marathon" has always been a bit amusing to me. Kelso won 5 JCGCs at 2 miles, and the other day we just saw Yeats win a 2 1/2 mile event for the third consecutive year, yet by American standards, 1 1/2 miles is a Marathon. Go figure...

I also wonder how we can be so anxious for a Triple Crown winner, which involves three races at considerable distances with 5 weeks, a schedule that tests a horses stamina, perserverance, and courage, not to mention durability, yet I've heard it said that we're sacrificing soundness (and obviously some stamina) for speed. The Triple Crown is not exactly structured for speed freaks.

re: Royal Ascot a Tonic for U.S. Woes

Steve Haskin — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 16:36:29 GMT

Cheryl, I think John's irritating manner is what makes him so entertaining. I've known John for years, and love talking to him when he's here for the Breeders' Cup. I can listen to him analyze a race while displaying his repertoire of bookmaker signs all day. Enjoy Glorious Goodwood. That's one of the few English tracks I haven't been to.

re: Royal Ascot a Tonic for U.S. Woes

Marc W — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 16:35:09 GMT

Whether it is Yeats or Makybe Diva racing is still big and exciting overseas (-see Japan the crowds along with Australia and England)the thrill is still there like it used to be in North America. I remember the meets at Fort Erie when I was young 6-7000 people every day big grandstands with many different views. Now a small section that isn't casinos, past the wire, 900-1000 attendance, not on slots. In FL the "Flight of the Flamingos" yes, we have the Triple Crown and big crowds for those events, but on the norm, by our own doing, racing is dying.

No superstars to become attached to unless they are fillies or geldings. Press couldn't be worse if you are talking the general not horse reporters-almost all negative. The race pages with charts and selections in the newspapers is all gone and an after thought in the news.

Upset became a term, supermarkets used races to have giveaways on TV programs in the match and win. You would root for your horse even if the results were known by the sponsor as they were replays not live racing shown. Racing was very big-in the front and center--was.

Treasure foreign racing-it is the future for die-hard fans.

Enough gloom and doom keep bringing us the good news Steve.

re: Royal Ascot a Tonic for U.S. Woes

Cheryl — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 15:58:32 GMT

How nice to see that our raicng is appreciated on your side of the pond! I often get the impression from US based bloggers etc that US racing is the be-all-and-end-all and everyone else can get lost!

I will say that a lot of people over here, myself included, find John McCrick irritating and obnoxious. He only looks from the "punters" point of view and having never sat on a horse in his life is hardly qualified to talk about whip rules!

That said, he makes for some good banter!

If you ever get the chance to watch the BBC coverage of Ascot, do. It is the best by far with Clare Balding (daughter of Mill Reef's trainer Ian Balding) and ex-joxkey Willie Carson heading up the coverage, you will noe find a more knowledgeable team.

If you go to the bbc site: bbc.co.uk/horseracing, you can see replays of the major races and look at pictures from the full 5 days of racing.

Roll on July Week at Newmarket and Glorious Goodwood!

re: Royal Ascot a Tonic for U.S. Woes

Seb — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 14:49:34 GMT

Yes, Tony Cheval got what I meant. Yeats is one of the few horses winning Gr. 1 races who is as valuable on the racecourse as at stud. For when, in due time, he is retired, he will command a fee probably of well less than 10,000 euros, like the other recent stars among the true stayers Vinnie Roe and Kayf Tara, who stand respectively for 4,000 and 2,500 to National Hunt mares. I am not aware of anyone who wants to breed a flat mare to a horse whose specialty is going any further than 12f.

That being said, this fact makes it possible to enjoy the years of racing such horses give us. Yeats is a real pleasure to follow.

re: Royal Ascot a Tonic for U.S. Woes

Steve Haskin — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 14:30:15 GMT

Sorry for the misunderstanding on Seb's point; I obviously read it wrong. Secretation, Henry isn't as accomplished as Rock of Gibraltar yet, but he has the acceleration and he's showed he likes to battle. And beating the eventual English Derby winner in both Guineas certainly boosts his reputation. Doctor Fager and Brigadier were much more than milers. The Doc was probably as perfect a miler and you'll ever see, while Brigadier was probably more of a mile and a quarter horse. Recently, I thought Congaree was as good a miler as we've seen. And although he won at all distances, Ghostzapper was a super miler, and his Met Mile was awesome. I think Discreet Cat could have been one of the great milers if it werent for injuries and other maladies, and if they hadn't messed him up by running hin the World Cup.

re: Royal Ascot a Tonic for U.S. Woes

Tony Cheval — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 05:15:27 GMT

You're missing Seb's point, what he meant is that if Yeats wasn't a distance horse, he would've run his races and been retired to stud far sooner. Which perhaps doesn't need to be said, but he wasn't casting aspersions on the horse.