Royal Ascot a Tonic for U.S. Woes

re: Royal Ascot a Tonic for U.S. Woes

Secretation — Wed, 25 Jun 2008 19:42:24 GMT

Johnny, Thanks for the response. I know there are others here in the States that are aware of the rich history of horses across the pond. But it's sad that so much of what is published here seems to ignore them. I love the book "Thoroughbred Champions" and I understand that it was intended to profile the 100 greatest American horses of the 20th century, but it doesn't say "American." I think it's essential reading for fans of the sport, but I can understand how the Brits fell a bit slighted by its title. Julian Wilson's book may have left out some important American runners, but at least he put some of our best in there.

Also, I totally agree with you regarding Phar Lap. Cynthia was referencing racing across the pond, but Australia has Phar Lap, Bernborough, Tulloch, Carbine, Gloaming and Kingston Town in its history. I would put Phar Lap up in the top 5 of all time.

Regarding Sea Bird's high rating in spite of few starts, it illustrates one of the key differences between our sport and theirs. If you look at a list of the top 100 European horses, you'll find that only about 20% raced as many as 20 times. Many of them far less. In our list of 100 only about 20% didn't run 20 times or more. They run their best in classic races to determine breeding prospects, where we historically have run for purses and accumulated earnings. Really what we're seeing now is a shift to a more European paradigm in that sense, but with a decidedly American tendency to oversaturate the market looking for the quick buck. I think in Europe they're still working toward the betterment of the breed.

That's just my take.

re: Royal Ascot a Tonic for U.S. Woes

GunBow — Wed, 25 Jun 2008 16:16:32 GMT

There have been durable "war horses" since John Henry: Best Pal, The Tin Man, Lava Man, Perfect Drift, and Funny Cide to a lesser extent. Of course all have been geldings. Even so, their long careers required great patience from owners and trainers. There was no real reason for Lava Man's connection to bring him back this year, especially after his poor form. Yet, knowing the popularity of the horse in Cali, they did bring him back and they were rewarded with another grade 1 placing. We need more in the industry to realize that there are indeed rewards beyond high stud fees. Lava Man has achieved a level of popularity many thought was impossible today and has accomplished feats of glory that truly make comparisons to Seabiscuit valid. Unfortunately his inability to win outside Cali makes him largely a regional phenom. For those outside of Cali, attending a Lava Man race was like rolling the clock back to a time when horse owners were sportsmen, horses were warriors, and fans developed personal connections to their equine heroes.

re: Royal Ascot a Tonic for U.S. Woes

berttheclock@comcast.net — Wed, 25 Jun 2008 12:43:16 GMT

Steve, thanks for this thread - Racing at it's finest, eh?

And, in the post by Secretation, two horses mentioned, Brigadier Gerard and Ribot, both found in the foundation of the late Lord at War - One of the finest duels ever was at Del Mar with the Shoe aboard the Lord - Half mile nose to nose duel with Lord prevailing by the thinnest of margins.

Wish more coverage had been given to the tremendous battle in the either '92 or '93 San Juan Capistrano, at about a mile and three quarters - Kotashaan, Bien Bien, and one other Grade I champion - Mind fogs - They were locked tightly at a mile and a quarter, when Bien Bien and Kotashaan surged to the front and raced, with barely a nostril separating them for the last half mile - Whittingham used to talk about the time needed for a horse to recover from that race, although, some have surfaced in early June at HP.

But, one of my favorite type of racing, was the old marathon series at Longacres - Conditions were for, I believe, no more than 20,000 claimers - So, all of the old bred long, short on speed guys would conduct a series of races from 12F up to 14F over a month a half period - But, this was at racing region, where many trainers thought six and a half was a distance race - Plus, it was also a place of the Mark Hannas of racing to commence whipping from the gate and never stop.

And, now, if we could rid ourselves of having post parade ponies - Loved seeing John Gosden lead some of his finest horses onto the track by himself.

re: Royal Ascot a Tonic for U.S. Woes

Johnny — Wed, 25 Jun 2008 03:17:30 GMT

I've always felt Citation was the greatest racehorse, but that's just my own personal opinion.

Secretation, please be assured that international horses are recognized and easily belong with any of the best Americans. You probably know that Morris and Randall's Timeform rating of the 200 greatest horses of the 20th Century had Sea-Bird on top, Secretariat #2, Citation #5, and Spectacular Bid at #9. The great Italian runner Ribot was #3. I don't agree with the fact that they dropped Man o'War so far down, and also don't know where in their ranking Kelso and Dr. Fager are either. However, Sea-Bird's #1 ranking with a rating of 145, albeit only 8 career starts, is one I'm not sure I agree with or not, but I certainly understand it. His 1965 win in the Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe was a nonpareil performance. And greatness does not always require career longevity, although it generally goes hand-in-hand.

Another of the greatest horses in my opinion was Phar Lap. As you said, "...great horses are great horses..." And I'll always recognize them, no matter where they're from.

re: Royal Ascot a Tonic for U.S. Woes

Richie — Wed, 25 Jun 2008 03:02:44 GMT

I first went to races at Fairhill many years ago and learned to love the long distance runners. I started going to races just after Kelso so never had the thrill of watching him win 5 JC Gold Cups when it was at 2 miles but I visited him many times at Woodstock. I also loved going to the International at Laurel--I guess it will never happen again but wouldn't it be a treat to have more long distance races here and more great horses run in them as they used to. Btw, I have read your great book on "Kelly" 3 or 4 times and still get goosebumps reading about his races. Thanks for a great ride!!!! Your great love of our sport shows through in all your writing!!

re: Royal Ascot a Tonic for U.S. Woes

Garrett Redmond — Wed, 25 Jun 2008 02:33:20 GMT

May I take more space to answer "needler in VA" on the issue of whips?

"needler" needs to understand Steve Haskin moderates the debate. McCririck and his views on whipping were in the original article, so why isn't this the forum?

I don't want to talk down to needler, but, it is pretty obvious his riding has been limited to pleasure horses. In that situation there are times when in the education of a horse a whip may be sensibly and humanely employed. Use of the whip in racing is an entirely different matter. I know. I rode races more than sixty years ago (that is right - 60 years).

In racing, the whip is used only to urge the horse to greater effort. Jockeys get carried away and flog a horse when it is clearly doing it's best. Racehorses give of their best naturally. It is a rare horse that sulks and holds back it's best effort.

In racing, use of the whip generally causes a horse to move away from the punishment. Watch the head-on videos and you will see what I mean. The whip does not keep a horse on a straight course. Surely everyone recalls Frankie Dettori flogging Swain with his left hand, causing Swain to move almost into the grandstand and thereby lose the Breeders' Cup Classic. There is NO place for a whip and flogging in horseracing.

Today, I was delighted to see the Delaware Park stewards suspended Jeremy Rose for six months for flogging a horse. We need more suspensions.

The Jockey Club has no power to ban the whip - the suggestion indicates some ignorance about who rules racing in the USA. The only thing TJC can ban is our right to free speech - anyway, that is what our Courts have ruled.

re: Royal Ascot a Tonic for U.S. Woes

Secretation — Wed, 25 Jun 2008 00:34:46 GMT

Cheryl, There are indeed some of us Americans who appreciate racing in Britain and Europe and who recognize that names like Ribot, Sea Bird, Mill Reef, Brigadier Gerard, Nijinsky, Dancing Brave, Shergar, Peintre Celebre and a host of others belong in the same conversations with Secretariat, Citation, Man O' War, Kelso, Dr. Fager, etc. as the greatest racehorses in history. Your racing is different, but great horses are great horses and its too bad some people are so quick to dismiss what they don't understand.

Steve, Thanks for your response. It will be fun to see what else Henry can accomplish in his career.

re: Royal Ascot a Tonic for U.S. Woes

Taxman — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 22:15:10 GMT

Royal Ascot is awesome, but those of us without a TVG account could not play it here in the USA. Why can't ALL of the phone/internet companies get on the same page and give us all what we want - quality racing all over the world. Oh yeah, Memo to Churchill Downs, I have not missed playing your races after Derby Day since you and your horsemen can't figure out how to split your monies you are making on us home bettors. But, I digress. Someone please give us all Ascot, Goodwood, Hong Kong, Japan, etc. all the time on all outlets!

re: Royal Ascot a Tonic for U.S. Woes

Johnny — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 17:11:15 GMT

I think it's a good idea to have a Breeders' Cup race at 12 furlongs, although for the first few years of its running, I wonder what kind of fields we'll see, especially with the BC Classic at 10 furlongs. There are very few horses that can go 1 1/2 miles on dirt, and other countries generally run that distance on turf. It seems that to have the Classic and the Marathon on the same day would either result in a very small Marathon field or spreading both races quite thin. I suspect the former. However, within a few years the race will become graded, assuming it's popular enough, and then maybe it will encourage breeders to put put some stamina into future generations. Depending on the venue, the synthetics should help encourage this as well. I don't necessarily think we need a lot of these shorter sprint-type races though. I can't remember how many there actually are, but, for my tastes, the longer the better.

Yes, the word "Marathon" has always been a bit amusing to me. Kelso won 5 JCGCs at 2 miles, and the other day we just saw Yeats win a 2 1/2 mile event for the third consecutive year, yet by American standards, 1 1/2 miles is a Marathon. Go figure...

I also wonder how we can be so anxious for a Triple Crown winner, which involves three races at considerable distances with 5 weeks, a schedule that tests a horses stamina, perserverance, and courage, not to mention durability, yet I've heard it said that we're sacrificing soundness (and obviously some stamina) for speed. The Triple Crown is not exactly structured for speed freaks.

re: Royal Ascot a Tonic for U.S. Woes

Steve Haskin — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 16:36:29 GMT

Cheryl, I think John's irritating manner is what makes him so entertaining. I've known John for years, and love talking to him when he's here for the Breeders' Cup. I can listen to him analyze a race while displaying his repertoire of bookmaker signs all day. Enjoy Glorious Goodwood. That's one of the few English tracks I haven't been to.

re: Royal Ascot a Tonic for U.S. Woes

Marc W — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 16:35:09 GMT

Whether it is Yeats or Makybe Diva racing is still big and exciting overseas (-see Japan the crowds along with Australia and England)the thrill is still there like it used to be in North America. I remember the meets at Fort Erie when I was young 6-7000 people every day big grandstands with many different views. Now a small section that isn't casinos, past the wire, 900-1000 attendance, not on slots. In FL the "Flight of the Flamingos" yes, we have the Triple Crown and big crowds for those events, but on the norm, by our own doing, racing is dying.

No superstars to become attached to unless they are fillies or geldings. Press couldn't be worse if you are talking the general not horse reporters-almost all negative. The race pages with charts and selections in the newspapers is all gone and an after thought in the news.

Upset became a term, supermarkets used races to have giveaways on TV programs in the match and win. You would root for your horse even if the results were known by the sponsor as they were replays not live racing shown. Racing was very big-in the front and center--was.

Treasure foreign racing-it is the future for die-hard fans.

Enough gloom and doom keep bringing us the good news Steve.

re: Royal Ascot a Tonic for U.S. Woes

Cheryl — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 15:58:32 GMT

How nice to see that our raicng is appreciated on your side of the pond! I often get the impression from US based bloggers etc that US racing is the be-all-and-end-all and everyone else can get lost!

I will say that a lot of people over here, myself included, find John McCrick irritating and obnoxious. He only looks from the "punters" point of view and having never sat on a horse in his life is hardly qualified to talk about whip rules!

That said, he makes for some good banter!

If you ever get the chance to watch the BBC coverage of Ascot, do. It is the best by far with Clare Balding (daughter of Mill Reef's trainer Ian Balding) and ex-joxkey Willie Carson heading up the coverage, you will noe find a more knowledgeable team.

If you go to the bbc site: bbc.co.uk/horseracing, you can see replays of the major races and look at pictures from the full 5 days of racing.

Roll on July Week at Newmarket and Glorious Goodwood!

re: Royal Ascot a Tonic for U.S. Woes

Seb — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 14:49:34 GMT

Yes, Tony Cheval got what I meant. Yeats is one of the few horses winning Gr. 1 races who is as valuable on the racecourse as at stud. For when, in due time, he is retired, he will command a fee probably of well less than 10,000 euros, like the other recent stars among the true stayers Vinnie Roe and Kayf Tara, who stand respectively for 4,000 and 2,500 to National Hunt mares. I am not aware of anyone who wants to breed a flat mare to a horse whose specialty is going any further than 12f.

That being said, this fact makes it possible to enjoy the years of racing such horses give us. Yeats is a real pleasure to follow.

re: Royal Ascot a Tonic for U.S. Woes

Steve Haskin — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 14:30:15 GMT

Sorry for the misunderstanding on Seb's point; I obviously read it wrong. Secretation, Henry isn't as accomplished as Rock of Gibraltar yet, but he has the acceleration and he's showed he likes to battle. And beating the eventual English Derby winner in both Guineas certainly boosts his reputation. Doctor Fager and Brigadier were much more than milers. The Doc was probably as perfect a miler and you'll ever see, while Brigadier was probably more of a mile and a quarter horse. Recently, I thought Congaree was as good a miler as we've seen. And although he won at all distances, Ghostzapper was a super miler, and his Met Mile was awesome. I think Discreet Cat could have been one of the great milers if it werent for injuries and other maladies, and if they hadn't messed him up by running hin the World Cup.

re: Royal Ascot a Tonic for U.S. Woes

Tony Cheval — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 05:15:27 GMT

You're missing Seb's point, what he meant is that if Yeats wasn't a distance horse, he would've run his races and been retired to stud far sooner. Which perhaps doesn't need to be said, but he wasn't casting aspersions on the horse.

re: Royal Ascot a Tonic for U.S. Woes

Steve Haskin — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 02:35:13 GMT

I remember ol' Paraje well. He became sort of a cult hero winning all those Displays. And how about Shuvee beating the boys twice in the Gold Cup? It's too bad there's no longer a place for true stayers in this country. Someone should tell the Breeders' Cup that 1 1/2 miles is not a marathon. Thanks everyone for your comments.

re: Royal Ascot a Tonic for U.S. Woes

Johnny — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 00:52:57 GMT

Steve, you are right on the mark with Royal Ascot. I recorded and watched most of it and loved the chatty English, their charm, their formal attire and top hats, and their in depth knowledge of the sport. The English perspective and manner of discussing racing was very delightful, and educational as well. Obviously they have a great deal of respect for the horses. I love turf races to begin with and observed how much wider the tracks are across the pond than in the U.S. It's interesting to see to flights of runners on opposite ends of the track. It's reassuring that the sanctions are stricter, particularly in the way riders steer their mounts, careful to avoid anything that would cost them an infraction; and the scrutiny toward the use of the whip, is something I'd love to see more of over here.

I thought Mutton Chops was his usual wonderful self, although he seemed to take over a little when he was bantering with the lady announcer (I can't for the life of me remember who she was). He can be quite domineering at times, but that's OK. I especially loved the post race analysis, when the guy in the TV studio (can't remember his name either) went over the race slowly, carefully discussing the nuance of how the race played out, and freezing parts of it. That was great, especially for me, since I've only been following the sport for five years, and am learning as I go. Oftentimes it's difficult for me to really look at a race carefully and "interpret" if you will, what actually happened and how factors affect the dynamic of a race and the participants.

Henrythenavigator was awesome, and I'd love to see him stay at the mile distance and perhaps come over here to have a go at the BC Mile. I only hope nobody gets any ideas of wanting to run this horse in the Classic. The highlight of the event was Yeats. And this is where I got a little frustrated because the one thing I didn't see on the TV just before the races commenced was the distance run; and not being all that familiar yet with Royal Ascot, I kept having to figure out how far they were going, if I hadn't heard the announcer or seen the distance posted before hand. I suspected Yeats went 2-2 1/2 miles, so I was good at my guess. I also noticed that they don't post any internal fractions or final clockings either. Perhaps this is because they're not as concerned with how fast a horse runs, but only how well and sound he runs, how clean he runs, and getting him over the finish line. Whatever the reason, it didn't bother me.

Royal Ascot was very refreshing after the woes we've been experiencing here, and it's whet my appetite for more international racing. It had been awhile since I've seen much of it. I just hope that one day, the word "stamina" and "stayer" will be back in the American racing vocabulary. Maybe that's wishful thinking, but I'm hoping.

Thanks for the blog. I've always loved your articles and your 'Thoroughbred Legends' books on Dr. Fager, Kelso, and John Henry. Keep up the great work.

re: Royal Ascot a Tonic for U.S. Woes

Secretation — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 00:43:05 GMT

Steve, I didn't know you were such a fan of international races. How good do you think Henrythenavigator will turn out to be? Is he as good as Rock of Gibraltar? Also, who you think are the greatest milers since Dr. Fager and Brigadier Gerard?

re: Royal Ascot a Tonic for U.S. Woes

Christine — Mon, 23 Jun 2008 23:53:11 GMT

Well done Steve.

Back to the US: first we need to ban most, then all drugs. Then shift purses from two year old sprints to longer races. It is speed and drugs which kill two year olds not exercise. Write longer races and allocate larger purses to distance races for 3 and up. Make athletic, pace, strategy and the finish more important than drugs, equipment gismos, speed from the gate and brutality.

Horses in Ascott raced without leg wraps and only with regular bridles, bits, nosebands far away from their nostrils.

European private yards are peaceful, sunny, clean which help keep horses healthy. Stomach ulcers anyone? Longer walks, more training options, more turf, wide or no turns, less traffic, regular grass training, softer ground, less/no emphasis on the stop-watch, more time outside.

US racing has nothing to invent in order to vastly improve the life, health and longevity of its horses. It could simply follow the European model and train away from the madness, schedule, lack of space and filth of crowded race tracks. No horsemen should ever be pressured to run spent or infirm horses to keep their stalls! If dirt vs. synthetic is too tough to choose from, why not install more grass courses? Turf experts are available around the world because grass racing has been around forever and it is proven to be the best by far.

re: Royal Ascot a Tonic for U.S. Woes

Copper Mel — Mon, 23 Jun 2008 23:24:53 GMT

To think that I used to get upset when TVG would butcher the ATR telecast. Now that they are mostly gone I would settle gladly for a typical TVG chop job, complete with Chef Tony and the Video Professor; I could even buy some of their stuff.

re: Royal Ascot a Tonic for U.S. Woes

Steve Haskin — Mon, 23 Jun 2008 23:22:21 GMT

Ellen, I remember ol' Paraje very well. He became a cult hero, running off with the Display every year, and how about Shuvee beating the boys two years in a row in the JC Gold Cup? There should be a place for the stayers. By not diversifying our racing over the years we're in the state we're in. Thanks to all for your responses.

re: Royal Ascot a Tonic for U.S. Woes

needler in Virginia — Mon, 23 Jun 2008 22:25:49 GMT

Didn't really think this issue would need to be addressed here, but Garrett has brought it up, so here goes. I have never ridden in a race, but I have spent a great part of my life bothering equines, both on the trail alone, and in company with loads of other horses. Having a crop, bat, whip.... whatever you wish to call it...... is a good idea no matter where or when you ride. It is an extension of your authority and control, and sometimes....NOT ALL THE TIME... you need a little extra bit of leverage to make a point. THIS DOES NOT MEAN I LIKE THE IDEA OF BEATING A HORSE FOR THE HELL OF IT. You really DO need to maintain control of animal as large and dangerous as a horse, and SOMETIMES you need to remind the horse just who is driving! GARRETT, IF YOU HATE CROPS SO MUCH GET THE JOCKEY CLUB TO BAN 'EM! Until that happens, the waving of a crop at a horse will upset lots of folks, whether the horse is struck or not (and there really are loads of times, the horse is NOT struck). Very often the crop is a reminder that running forward in a relatively straight line is a much better idea for both horse and rider than, say....running through the fence on the outside rail.

And there are times when only that extension of your arm works to make a point.

SORRY, Garrett, but this really isn't the forum to complain about whips.

Cheers.

re: Royal Ascot a Tonic for U.S. Woes

merrywriter — Mon, 23 Jun 2008 22:24:03 GMT

You know, if the major networks would show Ascot, and even Dubai, for the high class spectacles they are, more people would follow racing. There's an awful lot of fans of the queen herself on this side of the pond and she's as good a hook as any.

There's more than just the race itself, which is what our channels concentrate on. To get new people involved, especially half the population, females, show the hats, the haut couture, the fans. It's a start to grab them into the race itself. I would have loved to have seen the Queens procession, but all I had was TVG and it was all businees and even cut off some of the great banter, as you quoted. What I was impressed with was the honesty by the trainers as to what their horses actually could do.

I don't know when the powers that be realize that they need to practically start over again with racing because few speak the language anymore, let alone can figure out the Daily Racing Form.

Horse racing will make a resurgence ONLY WHEN the full picture of racing: the horses, the owners, the jockeys, the trainers AND THE FANS are all brought together by the commentators.

re: Royal Ascot a Tonic for U.S. Woes

Dirt To Turf — Mon, 23 Jun 2008 22:22:32 GMT

Are not our cries are falling on deaf ears! More distance, more turf. Longer races, fuller fields. No meds, no whips! Is anyone listening? Are the blue-bloods who run this game taking notes? Kelso, John Henry where are you? Come back, come back..........

re: Royal Ascot a Tonic for U.S. Woes

andyod — Mon, 23 Jun 2008 22:18:39 GMT

For those who missed Ascot you can watch the reruns but you must register at At The Races.com.(no charge) Find the following horses and enjoy;Lush Lashes, Henry the Navigator, The Duke of Marmalade, Macarthur, Honolulu,Yeats. Good Luck.

For more info see Sporting Life,or Racing Post.com

Andyod