Curlin Revisited

re: Curlin Revisited

tbpartnerperson43 — Thu, 17 Jul 2008 14:20:34 GMT

I took myself to the Stonestreetfarms.com website to vote, but what I really loved was discovering the Go Curlin website link. How did I not know it was there? What a terrific site. Make sure you click each section. However, I loved the Caregivers part the most and sent the link to all my friends. The paragraphs on Pancho, the stable pony, are priceless. Make sure you visit!!!!

re: Curlin Revisited

Julie L. — Wed, 16 Jul 2008 20:02:39 GMT

There were some good comments here in regards to how well Curlin did do in his first start on grass that were positive but I don't understand how others can immediately judge that he isn't a grass horse and should go back to dirt and why is he going to France? Curlin did show that he can run and run well on grass and as Funnycide420 put it all with "five minutes" of training on the turf. Give the horse a break, he has had a pretty tight schedule and for the limited training on turf and going against some pretty darn good Breeders Cup Turf winners how can anyone suggest that he cannot handle turf racing. More training and races on the grass and I believe Curlin could win the Eclipse for best Turf horse if given the chance to prove himself. Going to France to show how good he is even if he only placed is nothing to hang one's head in shame for. Let's get back to real horseracing just like Asmussen and Jackson are trying to do.

re: Curlin Revisited

Scottish Racing — Wed, 16 Jul 2008 06:20:48 GMT

Steve,

His trainer reckons the horse got worked up before the French Derby. His is by Montjeu after all. Royer Dupre has also infered that he reckons there is not much between Zarkava and the colt!

Note that the Racing Post still makes the performance 4pds inferior to the Duke in the POW. I reckon it is a hot Arc this year and will take a lot of winning. The last great foreign horse to come over was Deep Impact. I've seen his runs on You Tube from Japan and still can't believe he ever got beat. Pilot error in the Arc. I still hope Curlin comes over though.

re: Curlin Revisited

dr marv — Wed, 16 Jul 2008 04:17:42 GMT

To DANYLSON, the excitement is that we now have a chance for a true Horse of the World. An American one at that! At all distances, on all surfaces, in all directions, in all continents. There has never been a true Horse of the World (Cigar couldn't run on turf). THE TOP RACES NOW DO NOT PROVE ANYTHING. The Breeders Cup Classic and Dubai World Cup place the clockwise, dirt running 10 furlong Americans at an advantage while the Arc and the Japan Cup place the turf and 12 furlong Europeans at an advantage (although the Japan Cup is run counter-clockwise like in the US). Is it not thrilling that an American horse might actually be the first true Horse of the World? That an American horse might actually be the best at all distances (9-12 furlongs), on all surfaces (turf and dirt) in all directions (clockwise and counter) in all continents (NA, Europe, Asia)? WOW. Sad thing is, it's not going to be Curlin. We had 2 good shots: In 1973, Secretariat could have done it, but he never ran outside North America. And in 2006, Barbaro raced like the wind on turf and Roy Jackson mused about a trip to France, the Arc and glory. Sigh.

re: Curlin Revisited

dr marv — Wed, 16 Jul 2008 03:50:59 GMT

SKIP THE ARC. Why? 1) Not enough time- Curlin needs another turf race before the Foy, leaving him dry for the Arc- 5 races in 4 months. 2) Distance- 12 furlongs (clockwise to boot!) is too long for Curlin. 3) Competition- he'll face the very best of europe at their own game. BETTER PLAN: Irish Champion Stakes. Why? 1) Time- He'd need only one prep in Europe in August which would leave him still fresh for the ICS. He'll only need one prep, rather than two bec the ICS is a much better fit for Curlin and a much easier race than the Arc. 2) Distance- 10 furlongs is Curlin's best distance. 3) Competition- not as good as the Arc.

This would allow Curlin Grade I/ Group I wins in North America, Europe and the Middle East on both dirt and turf, still historic. And then he should aim for the Japan Cup Dirt.

BEST PLAN: Europe prep- Irish Champion - Japan Cup Dirt.

Hey guys, he's already won the Breeders Cup. It wont add anything and he'll be dry for the Japan Cup Dirt.

re: Curlin Revisited

Huh — Wed, 16 Jul 2008 00:36:48 GMT

To me right now either New Approach or Henrythenavigator are the favorites in the Arc and Curlin should be at like 50-1 right now, because he couldn't beat a class b european turf horse in Red Rocks but did beat Better Talk Now who closed extremely nicely. I hope Curlin either cancels in trip to Paris and opts for a trip to Arcadia (BC Classic, or BC Turf) or even a trip to Illinois (Arlington Million).

re: Curlin Revisited

Rachel in Florida — Wed, 16 Jul 2008 00:30:40 GMT

Curlins BSF for his first turf try is a 104. Curlins AVERAGE BSF improvement 2nd running on any given course is 9 points. That gives him a 113 and leaves RR in the dust. Just food for thought. I hope Jess Jackson stays the course to the Arc. I will be rooting for him all the way and YES, I think he's capable. One more thing, THANK YOU JESS JACKSON!!! Watching Curlin run this year has been a gift!

re: Curlin Revisited

Flyingm — Tue, 15 Jul 2008 23:43:00 GMT

Does anybody know the Beyers or any of the other speed figs from the Man o War?

re: Curlin Revisited

Steve Haskin — Tue, 15 Jul 2008 22:56:14 GMT

Hi SR, I did watch Montmartre and he was extremely impressive. I wonder what happened to him in the Frenchy Derby. I see he's now the new Arc favorite. He may be loch. (a little Scottish humor for you :))

re: Curlin Revisited

Scottish Racing — Tue, 15 Jul 2008 20:08:57 GMT

Steve,

Your biggest from Scotland here again. You need to catch last nights Grand Prix de Paris over C&D. Montmartre was devasting.

Have a look at the traffic trouble and ask if you would want Robbie A to try and get through that with little or no rides at the track before hand.

Keep up the good work.

re: Curlin Revisited

Steve Haskin — Tue, 15 Jul 2008 16:08:49 GMT

As this point, Duke of Marmalade is a 1 1/4-mile horse; he hasn't done a thing at 1 1/2 miles. Last year he was the perennial bridesmaid. That may change in the King George, but we'll have to see. Zarkava is a terrific filly but she has a long way to go to be compared to Ouija Board. And she hasnt been farther than 1 5/16 miles. Things could change by the fall, but right now there is no standout 1 1/2-mile horse.

re: Curlin Revisited

FormerFan — Tue, 15 Jul 2008 15:46:48 GMT

That's how I felt watching him come down the stretch, his stride. He almost looked as if he had no kick, or punch to his run. To me he looked kinda lethargic coming down the stretch. There was no explosive move. He ran pretty good, but not good enough to win an Arc, and if he can't get by Red Rocks, he's not going to get by better turf runners. I hope now they abandon this insane idea of taking him to France and running in the Arc. IMO, it would be embarrassing to say the least, AND i love Curlin but one has to be realistic. I wish they would just let this horse do what he does best, and leave him alone.

re: Curlin Revisited

MikeM — Tue, 15 Jul 2008 13:42:57 GMT

One of the things that seperates Curlin from Big Brown is that when Curlin raced on a surface he didn't care for, and the race didn't set up for him, he still ran gamely and finished second to a top horse. When things didn't set up for Big Brown in the Belmont he was eased.

re: Curlin Revisited

JOSE93 — Tue, 15 Jul 2008 13:25:20 GMT

How is it not a vintage crop of European runners? Duke Of Marmalade is not far off being as good as Manduro. Zarkava is the best filly Europe has seen for a long time, probably better than Ouija Board!!! Duke Of Marmalade's Prince Of Wales' Stakes performance was exceptional. Has nobody seen that? As for Curlin he lacks a turn of foot on all surfaces. The last furlong of the Dubai World Cup took 13 long seconds. They were walking by the end of that race. Considering American racing is about speed his time in the Stephen Foster was nothing brilliant.

re: Curlin Revisited

dailyimpact — Tue, 15 Jul 2008 13:21:17 GMT

in addition to mr. haskins very comprehensive views of the Arc, here some details regarding the task: Curlin (and any other 4 year old colt) will have to shoulder 131,17 pounds, 3 year old colts 123,46, older fillies 128,97 and the young girls 120,15. the likely winner will be asked to cover the distance of 12 furlongs in about 2.26 flat, if the going is adequate. if you consider Secreteriats Belmont time on dirt you may imagine what we are talking about in the Arc. It is simply the best 3up weight for age middle distance race in the world.

re: Curlin Revisited

90Proof — Tue, 15 Jul 2008 13:21:05 GMT

Rachel

Big Brown needs to face the other superstar 3 year old first, Harlem Rocker. I personally think BB has a back injury and am really interested in The Haskell, if he comes outta it well, He and Harlem Rocker need to get it on in the Traverse. He is 4 for 4 on the dirt and has numbers that are just as impressive as BB. I still don't think BB will ever race again, I hope I'm wrong.

re: Curlin Revisited

Steve Haskin — Tue, 15 Jul 2008 10:57:21 GMT

No Class, I did not see Nijinsky run live, but in case you werent aware, there is a fantastic video on Nijinsky, that I believe is narrated by Orson Welles. If you dont have it, I suggest you look for it. It is one of the best horse videos I've ever seen.

Karen, I didnt see the work. I'll be having another blog in the next day or two discussing all the weird stuff going on with BB and his works. No one at all is reporting on them, and the BB camp has not issued one statement regarding them.

Jean, I am so happy to hear about your granddaughter. We have to start nurturing children when they're young to create the horse and racing lovers of the future.

Pam, as I explained in my last Curlin blog, the Foy is normally a small field with no pace, and you get some strange runnings because of that slow pace.

Alex P, I dont know about Curlin's healed wound, but I wouldnt worry about it. I'm sure that had no bearing on the Man o'War. I will check into Charming.

johnny Z, I agree with you that this is not a vintage crop of Europeans, and it is a good year to attempt this. I discussed this in my last Curlin blog as well.

re: Curlin Revisited

JOSE93 — Tue, 15 Jul 2008 10:53:11 GMT

Curlin will fail if he comes to Europe. Henrythenavigator, New Approach, Zarkava, Duke Of Marmalade, Soldier Of Fortune and may more will beat him. Red Rocks was 11 lengths behind Soldier Of Fortune at Epsom, yet beat Curlin, and that is a true margin. If the connections of Curlin want to win a European Group 1 race then he should come for the English Champion Stakes, where the standard is easier. Connections wouldn't come for that because of the supposedly poor prize money. I think most know that the only reason the Arc was suggested was because it is virtually the richest race in the world. There's no other reason, at all.

If Curlin did come to Europe, the idea of Curlin ignoring the Aidan O'Brien rabbit is a fruitless one. If you ignore the rabbit and sit 10 lengths behind him then you'll be in the same situation as the Man O'War.

re: Curlin Revisited

Steve Haskin — Tue, 15 Jul 2008 10:42:40 GMT

Ranagulzion, I never said anything about cutting back to 1 1/4 miles being an issue. As far as the BC Turf, it's an interesting concept. Thr BC cannot raise the purse for those horses, but I would like to think they would go somewhere to meet. I dont see it happening in the Turf, but it's interesting.

Berneslarry, I couldnt agree more about Sudan; he ran an amazing race after those opening fractions. He's definitely one to watch. Alan, so are you saying Big Spruce did not make up 10 lengths on Secretariat? The chart says he did. The fact that he made up 10 lengths is correct, eased or not. And he won under a hand ride, but I wouldnt call it eased. The comment was not about the merits of Secretariat. It was strictly about strategy. His early move to open up that big a lead allowed him to be "eased" (if you wish) late in the race.

re: Curlin Revisited

Steve Haskin — Tue, 15 Jul 2008 10:30:37 GMT

Sorry, there was a delay in publishing the comments, so I will read them now to catch up and reply to as many questions as possible. Thanks.

re: Curlin Revisited

Will W — Tue, 15 Jul 2008 07:25:32 GMT

I agree with Steve that long striding Curlin must run closer to the pace on the turf and wear down his shorter striding, quicker of foot turf rivals in order to compromise their final explosive kicks and defeat them. .Like Kelso, Curlin will probably get better with more turf races under his belt and become good enough to beat the best in American turf classics, including the Breeder's Cup turf if he is ridden in that fashion. After all, it was one work on the turf and into a Grade 1 with two Breeder's Cup Turf winners while a horse like Red Rocks was trained specifically for the Man O' War. Red Rock's rider said he had the perfect trip 3-4 lengths off a torrid, suicidal pace alone on the rail while Curlin who broke a step slow was 3-4 lengths back of RR and forced to run wide. Having said that in Curlin's favor, the best in Europe in the Arc are probably too much for him. As for Curlin's ability at a mile and a half, he was boxed in on the rail in the Belmont and Albarado was not able to move as quickly as he wanted to, allowing the slightly quicker of foot and well-rested Rag to Riches to get the jump on Curlin and just hold him off in a stirring stretch duel. As Asmussen pointed, out the two came home the last quarter mile in an astoundingly fast clocking. What more could you ask of the inexperienced Curlin who, if he had been allowed to run and gain valuable experience and maturation as a two year old, would have swept the Triple Crown. Kudos to Jess Jackson for running Curlin as a 4 year old. He clearly had Secretariat's reputation in mind in wanting to run Curlin on the turf in the Man O' War and the Arc. Jackson said before the Derby that he thought Curlin might be of the caliber of a Secretariat, a Seattle Slew, and an Affirmed. As Cot Campbell has rightly maintained, horse racing needs stars not more breeding stallions and Jackson has helped put the sport back into the Sport of Kings. What a breath of fresh air for an industry that has been reduced to the greed of breeding ! What a great thing it would be for racing if Jackson let Curlin continue to run as a 5 - even a 6 - year old ducking no one and bringing back memories of the great handicap horses of old like Damascus, Buckpasser, Dr. Fager, et al. Who cares if he gets beat occasionally against the best and two more years on the track would allow more time to try turf experiments and race the horse internationally. What a sportsmen Jess Jackson would be remembered as ! True racing fans would come out in droves to see Curlin and they would be applauding him just as loudly in defeat as in victory as occurred last Saturday at Belmont. Please Jess for the sake of the Sport of Kings keep Curlin on the track. Buck the tide, swim upstream against the greed of racing primarily to amass fortunes breeding and you will become the most beloved owner in modern day racing history !

re: Curlin Revisited

peter kreutzer — Tue, 15 Jul 2008 06:10:15 GMT

As usual I totally agree with the ability to move quickly on the turf With that in mind my thought is to run Curlin in the Woodbine mile ,where he can be sharpened up and then go to the Arc The turf move from a mile to a mile and a half has ,in my estimation, proven very effective

thanks peter

re: Curlin Revisited

berttheclock — Tue, 15 Jul 2008 03:19:10 GMT

Secretariat was in a class to himself. But, for a real turn of foot for a turf horse, Kotashaan, the Turf HOY and winner of the Breeder's Cup Turf at Santa Anita, had one of the most powerful kicks. In addition, as proven in the San Juan Capistrano against Bien Bien, he could run sustained 24s while neck and neck with a competitor. Shame that Kent D has so conveniently forgotten him, however, after his debacle of standing up short of the finish in the Japan Cup, that might speak volumes towards his "forgetfullness".

re: Curlin Revisited

Runfast159 — Tue, 15 Jul 2008 03:00:34 GMT

Great article. I completely agree with your analysis of Curlin on the turf. And in particular, his placement so far back in the field in the early going of the Man O War. Had he been laying even 4 or 5 lengths off the leaders I think he would have been tough to catch in the stretch.

I do have one question: Why is California the only venue available for the BC for the next 2 years? How are the tracks chosen and why would other tracks not be available?

Last comment: CURLIN VS BIG BROWN - I think there is far too much talk right now about a possible match up. Big Brown, and I love this horse dearly, has something to prove between now and then. And some dawdling works are not helping. I for one hope he comes back and blows the field away in a race like the Haskell or Travers. But until that happens, let's not count on a match up with Curlin.

re: Curlin Revisited

johnnyz — Tue, 15 Jul 2008 02:50:21 GMT

Steve,

Thanks for your insightfull reporting. I agree with you that the Irish Championship is the logical target for Curlin. It will give them options regardless of his effort. If they go with the Longchamp prep, then a dismal performance limits options. What I don't understand is how so many can have the ultra-strong opinion that Curlin has no chance in the Arc after one turf workout, and a 2nd in a G-1 Turf finishing sandwiched between two past BC Turf Winners. I follow Euro, and Irish racing daily, also bet quite often. IMO, the sensational 3 yr old filly Zarkava with a good Arc prep is the Arc winner this year. Peeping Fawn is still on the disabled list, Henrythenavigator, (who is ultra talented) will stick with the mile distance, as he is way the best in the world. Duke Of Marmalade will travel to Santa Anita for the Classic, or the BC Turf, as he likes a hard surface. New Approach, while talented is unhealthy, Soldier Of Fortune is no Dylan Thomas, as a matter of fact I consider Youmzain who finsihed a close 2nd to DT in last yrs. Arc as a top contender. Anyway I feel this is a good year for Curlin to attempt this feat. Yuu are right, about being close to the pace to win. I commented on Illmans DRF formblog before the license issue was straighten out for "Curlin to win he needed to be on, or very near the lead". If more people followed Euro racing, and understood the beauty, and the pure form of racing that goes on over there, they also would be pulling for Curlin to not only run in the Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe-but win the darn thing!