Derby Dozen (video) - March 5, 2012 - Presented by Shadwell Farm

re: Derby Dozen (video) - March 5, 2012 - Presented by Shadwell Farm

zarvona — Mon, 12 Mar 2012 23:00:24 GMT

ok mid March... so here is my current top 20 list ...

hard to to separate those in my top 5 so I will just list them in alphabetical order:

"Creative Cause"

"El Padrino"

"Hansen"

"Howe Great"

"Union Rags";

to complete my 'dozen'...

6.) "I'll Have Another";

7.) "Bodemeister";

8.) "Mark Velaski";

9.) "Secret Circle";

10.) "Alpha";

11.) "Sabercat";

12.) "Gemologist";

to the top twenty...

13.) "Dullahan";

14.) "Castaway";

15.) "Prospective";

16.) "My Adonis";

17.) "News Pending";

18.) "Midnight Transfer";

19.) "Take Charge Indy";

20.) "Liaison";

da bubble:

"Exothermic";

"Alltheunknownofyetcomidians"

re: Derby Dozen (video) - March 5, 2012 - Presented by Shadwell Farm

zarvona — Mon, 12 Mar 2012 20:45:51 GMT

WOW look at the + $200K earners thus far... this is shaping up to be a Derby between Storm Cat breds and NOT Storm Cat bred horses more and more every day... I suppose if Storm Cat breds fill 50% of the Gate slots they will be 50-50 to be the winner!! Gee maybe next year the gate will be filled with 75% to 100 % Storm Cat breds and we won't have them to exclude in the future from hanging roses around their necks anymore. Creative Cause was my Breeders Juv hoss and let me down... Gee he's coming back strong as a 3 year old,,, but he is on the side of the dreaded Storm Cat breds !!! for the Derby run... hmmmmmmmm

re: Derby Dozen (video) - March 5, 2012 - Presented by Shadwell Farm

zarvona — Mon, 12 Mar 2012 20:36:56 GMT

I am guess requesting the question of "What was Howe Great's Beyer figure ?" OFF OF THE TURF !!!!... lol ... will just then be a meaningless stastic ,,, that being IF I COULD EVER GET THE &+^%(^&)* ANSWER!!!

re: Derby Dozen (video) - March 5, 2012 - Presented by Shadwell Farm

zarvona — Mon, 12 Mar 2012 20:31:41 GMT

Oh that cost and injuries:

(last auction price!)

Not a game for the short of pocket.

Algorithms: $170K;

Basmati: $35K;

Currency Swap: $90K;

Ever So Lucky: $600K

(returned);

Fed Biz: $950K;

Fire on Ice: $170K;

Here Comes Frazer: $35K;

Hunt Crossing: $275K

J.C.’s Pride: $200K;

Junebugred: $20K;

(f) My Miss Aurelia: $550K;

O’Prado Again: $350K;

Timely Tally: $220K;

Privately Owned:

B Shanny;

Consortium

(Godolphin);

(f) Ismene;

Out of Bounds;

(Godolphin);

Stephanoatsee;

THE INJURY DERBY MIGHT HAVE BEEN AN INTERESTING RACE

re: Derby Dozen (video) - March 5, 2012 - Presented by Shadwell Farm

Cassandra.Says — Mon, 12 Mar 2012 04:34:44 GMT

Slew, my lad:

For me, 'old-timer' has to be a bit further back than a horse in the 2nd generation of some current runners. At least pre-60s.

I don't remember the days when every trainer had his secret 'tonic' but I do remember seeing a lot of horses snubbed up tight the night before race day standing in a bucket of ice. ELISA came in during the late 80s.

I suspect that around the turn of the 20th century, many folks were scoffing at the soft modern horses that weren't up to running four-miles heats.

re: Derby Dozen (video) - March 5, 2012 - Presented by Shadwell Farm

Slew — Sun, 11 Mar 2012 18:08:52 GMT

Cassandra: You said, "As for the superior soundness of the old timers, let's not close our eyes to these factors: they ran slower"

Is that why no modern day horse has ever broken Secretariat's times? Because he was sooo slow? He ran the fastest Derby ever, and Sham the second fastest. Monarchos was closest after that..but he didn't win the TC. And I'll barely mention his unmatched Belmont win by 31 lengths at 2:24.

Dr Fager was slow? this remarkable animal set the world record at 1 mile on any surface, 1:32 1/5.

How many horses today can claim HOY for 5 straight years? How many horses today actually run that long? Kelso was a perfect example of the iron horse.

Fastest Santa Anita Derby? 1965 Lucky Debonaire, 1:47:00, Same time for Sham in 1973 and Indian Charlie in 1998.

So the old timers were definitely not slow. You short-changed their abilies.

Baby Jane...Andy Beyers used to give pitifully low numbers to horses on synthetics. Even when she broke records, Zen's Beyers were low. Beyers number are extremely biased toward East Coast dirt horses.

El Kabong: Tequila!

re: Derby Dozen (video) - March 5, 2012 - Presented by Shadwell Farm

-Keelerman — Sun, 11 Mar 2012 17:58:44 GMT

Bigtex, jayjay, & El Kabong;

According to DRF.com, Exothermic suffered a minor setback that caused him to miss some training. He is over it now, and will be pointed to either the Blue Grass Stakes (gr. I) or the Lexington Stakes (gr. III) at Keeneland.

-Keelerman

re: Derby Dozen (video) - March 5, 2012 - Presented by Shadwell Farm

Forbidden Apple — Sun, 11 Mar 2012 15:03:39 GMT

Creative Cause was running hard after the wire, it looked like Rosario was having trouble pulling him up. He is much better than his one length victory. A 1 1/4 mile race will be perfect for him. The San Felipe will sharpen him up nicely, look out!

re: Derby Dozen (video) - March 5, 2012 - Presented by Shadwell Farm

Davids — Sat, 10 Mar 2012 23:41:14 GMT

Prospective wins the Tampa Bay Derby furthering his advances to the Kentucky Derby and perhaps some respect from many in the turf media. However, with the withdrawal of Take Charge Indy its hard to put the win into 'perspective' with regards to the overall Triple Crown picture.

This year there seems to be a lot of 'talking horses' coming out of maiden wins etc that don't match their hype when it comes to stakes competition. Mind you, highs and lows is what the Kentucky Derby Trial is all about.

re: Derby Dozen (video) - March 5, 2012 - Presented by Shadwell Farm

Baby Jane Towser — Sat, 10 Mar 2012 20:11:11 GMT

Slew, I don't know about synthetics, but Beyers on the turf are useless, no need to even print them

re: Derby Dozen (video) - March 5, 2012 - Presented by Shadwell Farm

Slew — Sat, 10 Mar 2012 19:36:30 GMT

Baby Jane: To be fair, I'm the one who mentioned Big Brown's foot issues, as opposed to Mary's claim of unsoundness due to line-breeding. Big Brown was certainly not unsound.

Tonka...ITA

Mary: I should note that the one horse considered most royal of American breeding has plenty of line breeding. You just don't get better than an AP Indy...lots of inbreeding that produced a dynasty.

Face it folks: Inbreeding among humans (as praticed by early aristocracy) has produced idiots and insanity.

In animals, however, it has refined their class and defined their place in our culture. Perhaps it's because some animals, like horses, have so many more genes to play with. I do consider outbreeding to be a positive step, (like Lonrho coming to stud). But all thoroughbreds eventually trace back to the Arab...and have been bred to keep certain lines in tact. Considering the original warhorse, that is not a bad thing.

re: Derby Dozen (video) - March 5, 2012 - Presented by Shadwell Farm

El Kabong — Sat, 10 Mar 2012 19:28:36 GMT

Tampa Bay Deby.........

Battle Hardened over Spring Hill Farm, Tell All You Know, Prospective. All four train on the deep surface of Pmm and all but SHF's have experience on the TB surface which favors those close to the pace.

Palm Beach............

Howe Great over Dullahan. Howe Great and JV should control the pace and get this. Dullahan will be closing but not so sure Dullahan is fit enough to get there unless the pace gets out of control. Not likely in this small field and JV is unbeatable with even 2nd or 3rd best horse under his saddle on turf.

San Felipe,

I still can't convince myself of a pick in here that exudes any kind of confidence in a wager. Is bode a monstah? I don't think anyone knows yet, but alot of locals seem to think so. Did creative cause get "exactly what he needed last out?" He better have. Rosario jumping on board would suggest he did, because I sure liked the effort Empire Way displayed in that blistering RB Lewis. He has 3 more works under his belt and a great Jockey for winning from off the pace. Liason got fried in his 1st back in that wicked pace and was tiring long before he clipped heels. Hence 4 works and good ones at that. American Act is very fit, and may be his best at this distance. NOT one work since that last 7F effort. His progress has been steady and that last effort was gutsy. There, I've narrowed my pick down to 5 I really like. 10 cent super box is 12 bucks. Hmmmm.

re: Derby Dozen (video) - March 5, 2012 - Presented by Shadwell Farm

Cassandra.Says — Sat, 10 Mar 2012 19:08:35 GMT

I once read a blogger bemoaning the fall in the number of horses breaking their maidens at two.

The number of two-year-old maiden winners will approximate the number of two-year-old maiden races that are carded by racing secretaries. No other factor.

The elephant in the living room here guys and gals is that racing is declining and one of the adaptations to fewer races being run is to race your horse less often. Let them down and bring them back up as the British do.

As for the superior soundness of the old timers, let's not close our eyes to these factors: they ran slower; they didn't have to pee in a bottle after they ran; the technology did not exist to detect problems like bone chips; and, perhaps most important, the idea that the horse's welfare came first would have been regarded as barking mad.

re: Derby Dozen (video) - March 5, 2012 - Presented by Shadwell Farm

Cassandra.Says — Sat, 10 Mar 2012 18:58:57 GMT

RiverCitySmitty:

Right on! It can't be good for the individual or the breed to have two-year-olds shipping hither and yon, even to Woodbine, in search of graded earnings in baby sprints. A premium for wins at 8 furlongs or more would give more of a chance to start in the Derby to a genuine stayer brought along carefully.

re: Derby Dozen (video) - March 5, 2012 - Presented by Shadwell Farm

El Kabong — Sat, 10 Mar 2012 18:55:18 GMT

Jay Jay, Big Tex,

Exothermic last seen on Feb 24th breeze. Nothing since. Not good.

re: Derby Dozen (video) - March 5, 2012 - Presented by Shadwell Farm

El Kabong — Sat, 10 Mar 2012 18:50:00 GMT

Slew,

That spirit would be a gin martini.

IF there's a prayer that starts out, "Get up seven, Get up seven!!!......," then I've said alot of them:)

re: Derby Dozen (video) - March 5, 2012 - Presented by Shadwell Farm

Aaron McC — Sat, 10 Mar 2012 16:42:37 GMT

At least its a step up from Kegasus ....

re: Derby Dozen (video) - March 5, 2012 - Presented by Shadwell Farm

Aaron McC — Sat, 10 Mar 2012 16:40:03 GMT

Steve - interesting dozen. I agree with those above that a Triple Crown winner would be good for racing. But, I think what's needed to develop fans is a deeper, more sustained campaign changing public perception and branding racing (not just the Triple Crown) in such a way that new fans develop a sustained, cultural and emotional connection. I know that you and Lenny often comment on racing's attempts to develop a new fan base, and wonder what you think of "The Other Madness" campaign.... I think the concept of "madness" is an interesting choice, and if they're going for 20 and 30 somethings, its a good one.... I'm serious. It presents racing as an emotional letting go that's wierd, not quite mainstream, which allows it to offer an alternative to the big three sports.

Given the kind of nostalgia styles (20s and 30s vintage clothing styles and cocktail revivals) newly popular among the target demographic, I think racing would benefit from emphasizing the history of the sport, and appreciate the video that mentions horse racing's prominence in the US through the 19th and early 20th c. I think more nostalgia fantasy, blended with the "madness" concept would be a good strategy ...

In any case, the campaign seems to be a step in the right direction, if only as a needed attempt.

re: Derby Dozen (video) - March 5, 2012 - Presented by Shadwell Farm

Baby Jane Towser — Sat, 10 Mar 2012 05:38:47 GMT

Mary, Big Brown would not be Big Brown if it weren't for his "unconscionable linebreeding". How many other Derby-Preakness winners has Boundary sired? Big Brown was bred for distance. Don't take my word for it, check out the pedigree. He is inbred 2x3 to products of the Damascus/Round Table cross (not exactly sprinters) - and his dam is inbred 3x4 to full siblings out of the illustrious mare Rough Shod. Moreover, his dam goes tail female to Simon's Shoes the 2nd dam of Rough Shod. This is widely regarded as one of the best families in the book. As far as Native Dancer is concerned, Big Brown only carries two strains of Native Dancer, on a 5x5 basis, whereas the grandsire of Zenyatta is inbred to Native Dancer 3x4. Impossible to say why he had foot issues, but its not because he was bred for speed. He never even ran in a sprint. Without the linebreeding he would have been just another son of Boundary, not a horse who the Derby in his 4th start!

re: Derby Dozen (video) - March 5, 2012 - Presented by Shadwell Farm

tonka — Sat, 10 Mar 2012 02:54:54 GMT

Mary do you really know what you are talking about??? Where do you get the idea that Hansen is inbred to Northern Dancer so much??FACT:Northern Dancer 7Sx5Sx5D, that is 3 crosses. FACT: Union Rags: Northern Dancer 3Sx4D closer than Hansen's. You keep making comments that Hansen is not bred to go the distance. Well, here are some facts: He has 15 stallions in his pedigree listed in the professional category of the chef-de-sire(which is the stamina end)he has a least 9 in the solid category . He has 18 crosses to Nearco, 11 to Discovery, 11 to Blenheim 2, 7 to Teddy, 8 to Princequillo, 8 to Man O' War, 6 to War Admiral, 5 to War Relic, 9 to Blue Larkspur. He also has 3 crosses to La Troienne, 5 to Hyperion, and the list goes on. If you look close you will see the names of La Fabuleux, Run The Gantlet, and April Run, closer up in his pedigree They excelled at distance. Then you have Temperence Hill he did also. This is just a quick trip down memory lane. To state that this horse is a miler is just an opinion, but to say or imply that his connections are going to hurt him by making him run. You really have no idea what you are talking about.

re: Derby Dozen (video) - March 5, 2012 - Presented by Shadwell Farm

KR — Sat, 10 Mar 2012 01:15:30 GMT

So, the connections of Take Charge Indy have decided to skip the Tampa Bay Derby, and put him in the Florida Derby instead. I thought he had an excellent chance to win the TBD. The field in the FD is going to be stacked, so it may be difficult for him to pick up enough earnings to make it to the Kentucky Derby. Pat Byrne had stated that he probably should have sent the colt to the Sam F. Davis stakes instead of that allowance race, and now they do this. I have to wonder how serious his connections are about making the Derby.

re: Derby Dozen (video) - March 5, 2012 - Presented by Shadwell Farm

JayJay — Sat, 10 Mar 2012 00:46:15 GMT

I second BigTex's post, any news on Exothermic ? I've been waiting for this horse to run and get on the trail.

re: Derby Dozen (video) - March 5, 2012 - Presented by Shadwell Farm

Slew — Sat, 10 Mar 2012 00:28:49 GMT

Mary: Big Brown...soundness issues??? Yes he had quarter cracks, but his real issue was his jockey. He was pulled up in the Belmont by Desormeaux for no known reason, and was found to have no physical issues. Later that year, "While working out with stablemate Kip Deville on October 13, Big Brown sustained an injury to a hind hoof and was declared out of the Breeders' Cup Classic, and retired." Bones and muscles were just fine...it's his feet that were tender.

Apparently the breeding experts disagree with your position on line breeding (inbreeding).

"The Lesh brothers, early evaluators of Thoroughbred pedigrees, determined that the 3x3 position has only a slightly higher percentage of winners than average, but a very high percentage of good producers. Later researchers have agreed with this finding saying that inbred horses are often extraordinary producers."

So line breeding is less of a "bad thing" than you are assuming, and actually has benefits according to experts who have done the research.

As far as I am aware, the one horse who has raised soundness questions in his progeny is Unbridled's Song...but I don't believe anything definitive has been established.

Zarvonna: I don't believe Beyer numbers are fair in regards to turf or synthetics....or even females...Kitty Wine won over Center Court by a head. Both were over 9 lengths ahead of the rest of the field.

re: Derby Dozen (video) - March 5, 2012 - Presented by Shadwell Farm

Alex'sBigFan — Fri, 09 Mar 2012 23:42:27 GMT

Congratulations to Zenyatta and Bernardini. What priceless photos of her and her new foal on her website. The birth so many of us have been waiting for. God Bless Zenyatta and her new little treasure. Hope Steve gets to go in the near future and take some photos of them for us. How great of Jerry and Ann Moss to be right there the night of the birth, last night. Zenyatta was surrounded by those that love her as she foaled. Awesome.

re: Derby Dozen (video) - March 5, 2012 - Presented by Shadwell Farm

zarvona — Fri, 09 Mar 2012 23:14:17 GMT

TY Slew

(Not sleepless in seattle)

And, i see 'coldfacts' posting on other Bloodhorse blogs... Is there some bad blood re Steve blog still?? ... bud we miss your insights ...