Is the American Thoroughbred a Separate Breed?

re: Is the American Thoroughbred a Separate Breed?

gary — Sat, 13 Nov 2010 19:53:26 GMT

Rachel Alexandra and Quality Road are excellent examples of our inferior bred horses. These two are sucking wind after 8.5 to 9 furlongs. Uncle Mo is the next one. Speed horses who should be racing Goldikova at a mile and no further.

re: Is the American Thoroughbred a Separate Breed?

Richard — Mon, 08 Nov 2010 02:51:23 GMT

I have walked all the sale rings. Fasiq, obs, keeneland,i am from louisiana and i see a big diff in tbs from places like florida and kentucky compared to our horses in la.The bloodlines r the same but the looks at a yr old and 2 yr olds in la compared to florida and kentucky or extreme. Yearlings look like full grown horses and 2 yr olds look like they r ready for a tough race season.I would love to get my babies to look like that at a yr but with our summers i just dont think it is possible unless u r rich or u use substances that r not good for the horses. In my defense i babies look good enough to bring 10,to 15000 at the markets. They still to me dont look as goood as babies from the big markets . other topic i think the breakdowns are from less training and less racing then from bad breeding. I think we all have read training books from the big trainers from the past and have any of yall seen trainers put thier babies to that much training and developing.

re: Is the American Thoroughbred a Separate Breed? -- by Scot T. Gillies

Carol — Fri, 22 Oct 2010 13:43:42 GMT

I think Karen of Indiana brings up a very important point. A lot of our leading trainers are previously quarter horse trainers and are obviously advising clients towards that type of horse. Of course, I appreciate there will be exceptions.

USA needs to create more classic distance races on turf and synthetic surfaces even on dirt but then again if we do not have the trainers able to deal with a classic distance horse and they are only able to deal with sprinters, the distance races would not fill. If you are a commercial breeder in America, you almost have to go for speed.

Case in point, of several yearlings I recently sold, the one that most resembled a quarter horse was the one my consignor was most excited about believing he was the type of horse buyers will go for, expecting a quick return at the early 2 year old races.

re: Is the American Thoroughbred a Separate Breed? -- by Scot T. Gillies

makarra — Fri, 08 Oct 2010 18:07:10 GMT

Sorry for the delay in replying with my own choices, and thank you to all who made suggestions. I, too, particularly like Corinthian to carry on the Seattle Slew line. Hard Spun reminds me more of his BMS Turkoman than Danzig, and that concerns me just a little.Curlin will certainly get an opportunity from the point of view of the mares, but as he is Mr. P x Northern Dancer wonder if he can get a outcross variety of mares? Big Brown, with all those crosses of Northern Dancer and Damascus, is a natural for Mr. P/Raise a Native mares. I thought he was an amazing racehorse, his Derby was one of the most exciting I have seen. What a shame about the Belmont, it left a black mark undeservedly on his record.

Dynaformer has been a very influencial sire for the Roberto line, but oh how much we will miss Barbaro carrying on the line!

My pick as a sire of sires is Giant's Causeway. Already is off to a great start with First Samurai (hot as a firecracker in September), Shamardal, and Footstepsinthesand, Aragorn (IRE). My picks for the new stallions without runners are Heatseeker and Red Giant. Red Giant was an AMAZING horse on the turf and won the Clement Hirsch [G1] in 1:57 and change, setting a NWR. A turf horse, yes, but a very fast one out of a Kingmambo mare. Heatseeker was also very speedy on the allweather, including the Santa Anita H. [G1], inbred to Blushing Groom (FR). Both stallions are a steal in my opinion (Red Giant, $6,000 and Heatseeker $15,000).

Keep up the comments, would love to hear more opinions from others!

re: Is the American Thoroughbred a Separate Breed? -- by Scot T. Gillies

Bellwether — Tue, 28 Sep 2010 05:49:22 GMT

NOE SLOW MOE...GO WATCH STEEPLE CHASE N IF U LIKE LONG RACE N...ty..

re: Is the American Thoroughbred a Separate Breed? -- by Scot T. Gillies

Swale1984 — Tue, 28 Sep 2010 02:17:34 GMT

Someone mentioned Unbridled's Song as a stamina influence. While I don't deny his breeding says that, he also seems to have progeny that are predisposed to leg problems. In my opinon, that would eliminate him from any possibility to breed to a mare I would own.

Dynaformer is a great stamina influence, but, with the notable exception of Barbaro, most of his offspring tend to peak later.

I love the German stallions, especially Manduro and his sire Monsun. Great confirmation, exceptional stamina. I would LOVE to see the Mosses send Zenyatta to Germany for a date with one of those stallions.

re: Is the American Thoroughbred a Separate Breed? -- by Scot T. Gillies

Ranagulzion — Mon, 27 Sep 2010 18:25:31 GMT

Makarra,

Here are my nominations:

Hard Spun, being an outstanding son of Danzig and grandson of Northern Dancer, with inbreeding to Native Dancer and his sire Polynesian, is almost certain to throw classic progenies that can excell on any surface and do well in the sales ring.

Corinthian, being a grand son of AP Indy via Pulpit that has excelled on the track, is very likely to throw progenies that will appeal to long-pocket investors and be classic distance runners too, but only on Dirt.

Curlin has all the attributes of pedigree, performance and good looks to be a very successful sire capable of throwing precocious classic types that can perform on Dirt and Turf.

re: Is the American Thoroughbred a Separate Breed? -- by Scot T. Gillies

JerseyBoy — Mon, 27 Sep 2010 15:16:53 GMT

makarra :

I nominate Henrythenavigator.

re: Is the American Thoroughbred a Separate Breed? -- by Scot T. Gillies

Katherine — Mon, 27 Sep 2010 07:25:55 GMT

Makarra I will offer you my opinion regarding a stallion prospect and that is Big Brown. Another to consider when he retires to stud is General Quarters. The reason I mention these two is that both carry Round Table, top and bottom of the pedigree. I am totally enamored of Round Table and his record. I saw him at age 24 and his legs and fetlocks looked so clean. If you have a mare with Round Table it could be an intriguing breeding; however I am not an expert or authority and have no financial stake. Would be interesting to hear your thoughts of my suggestion.

re: Is the American Thoroughbred a Separate Breed? -- by Scot T. Gillies

sceptre — Mon, 27 Sep 2010 00:28:48 GMT

Scot-

Yours and Alan's piece(s) were certainly thought provoking. If, indeed, today's American thoroughbred racehorse is not the same as, say 35+ yrs. ago, the cause or causes may be numerous and many, perhaps, not so apparent... Races are usually written to reflect the perceived aptitudes and abilities of the runners on the grounds and/or the desires of their trainers, together with a goal to maximize field size-the engine of this business, the bettor-tends to prefer larger fields, and larger fields tend to attract a greater pool. It would seem that this dynamic, together with the commercial sales market dictate the direction of the breed. Paralleling this is the historical fact that races have steadily shortened over the past two hundred + years, and its cause alone is worth pondering. No doubt through those years we have endeavored to selectively breed for more speed. But, why should this fact alone have caused races to shorten-i.e. why should the ability to run faster equate to a need to compete over shorter distances?.. Another observation, somewhat apart from these, is that our current stallion pool is, for the most part (as never before), derived from sprinter-milers. Many buyers/owners profess the desire for the classic-type horse. These same people, however, believe that what on offer to them can achieve this goal-and it has mostly become a self-fulfilling prophecy-Mr. Prospector's son, Conquistador Cielo (Belmont winner) may have, in part, paved the way to this relatively new mindset...Changing this all around-in a sense, bucking the flow of history-seems a rather tall order. It would require strong market presures or, absent this, a powerful racing/breeding authority. Lastly, the fact that foreignors are less receptive to American-breds may be a positive step, but we should not be so certain that their relative reluctance stems from aptitude (distance) misgivings rather than a perception of generally lower quality on offer as compared to times past.

re: Is the American Thoroughbred a Separate Breed? -- by Scot T. Gillies

makarra — Sun, 26 Sep 2010 23:13:44 GMT

Yes, I definitely would like to see more bone. I have bred to sons of Seattle Slew (he actually is my alltime favorite!). What did I get? A beautiful, commercially popular yearling who admittedly was on the light side for bone, maybe not by American standards but certainly light compared to European horses. Unfortunately he was also unsound. The best part of the Seattle Slew line, as far as I am concerned, is intelligence. We tend to ignore intelligence in our breeding plans but no one can deny that Zenyatta is one very clever horse. Watch her ears, her ritual paso fino moves to the post. She KNOWS what she is doing and does it over and over and over. And that includes knowing that Mike Smith is going to tell her when to go and where the finish line is. I am in awe of her. But I digress.

Commercial breeders are having a very tough time. I have always liked to think of myself as a commercial breeder with a conscience; unfortunately I have chosen stallions and sold their offspring a bit too soon (I bred to Candy Ride (ARG), Medaglia d'Oro 3 times, etc. because they are stallions I really liked, but unfortunately the offspring were sold before runners hit the track). Take a good look at Medaglia d'Oro, he is a lovely horse, good size, good bone, and a consistent racehorse. Balancing commercial with pedigree and conformation are tough and I have regretted some of my decisions. But I have also bred a grade 1 winner. So back to the crystal ball...Can I ask everyone out there what new stallions (no runners older than 2yos of 2010)to nominate the best stallions with the greatest chance of success in the sales ring AND at the races? I will save my nomination for my next post.

re: Is the American Thoroughbred a Separate Breed? -- by Scot T. Gillies

Ranagulzion — Sun, 26 Sep 2010 23:13:17 GMT

Very absorbing discussion going on here. Much talk about German breeding and honorable mention of the South Americans but i have a question for you all. What does Northern Dancer, Nijinsky, Vice Regent, Deputy Minister and Awesome Again have in common?

Perhaps there is still some wisdom south of the border.

re: Is the American Thoroughbred a Separate Breed? -- by Scot T. Gillies

Karen in Indiana — Sun, 26 Sep 2010 17:49:14 GMT

While there is the very, very lucrative carrot dangling from the stick as an incentive for successful horses to retire to stud at the end of their 3 yr. old year, that's nothing new and there are other reasons for retirement. Man O'War was retired aa a 3 yr. old for possibly 2 reasons, but the one that is for sure is that his security was being threatened and keeping him safe was wearing on the owner's nerves. In recent years, Big Brown was threatened before his Belmont race. He had a security detail watching over him, Curlin when he raced & Rachel now have 24 hour security protecting them. That is not the reason a lot of these stallions on this blog have retired, just wanted to give another reason some horses retire early that doesn't have anything to do with soundness.

re: Is the American Thoroughbred a Separate Breed? -- by Scot T. Gillies

JerseyBoy — Sun, 26 Sep 2010 16:50:06 GMT

As we praise the Germans, let us not forget that a leading sire in Germany on more than one occasion was American horse, Big Shuffle, a grandson of Bold Reasoning. According to the Racing Post, in 2009:

"BIG SHUFFLE, one of the leading influences for speed in German breeding for the past two decades, died today. He was 25"

re: Is the American Thoroughbred a Separate Breed? -- by Scot T. Gillies

Katherine — Sun, 26 Sep 2010 09:15:24 GMT

Makarra and other commercial breeders here, would you like to see more bone and substance in your breeding programs and as it relates to soundness issues? What is your view of Seattle Slew and his offspring in that regard?

re: Is the American Thoroughbred a Separate Breed? -- by Scot T. Gillies

Horsefirst — Sun, 26 Sep 2010 04:15:53 GMT

Regarding American bloodlines in European horses:

This is usually an American bred sire over European bred mares. Would tend to keep some of the stamina. However, as time goes on, more of the American lines are appearing in the dam lines and one wonders how long it might be before Europe begins to have the same problems, even with different training methods?

I hope the Germans maintain their strict standards. In sport horse breeding, good mare lines are protected. If they treat the Thoroughbred this way, hopefully, they will remain an out cross source.

re: Is the American Thoroughbred a Separate Breed?

Terry — Sat, 25 Sep 2010 22:59:44 GMT

The North American Thoroughbred needs longer races and a greater emphasis on durability if it is to remain competitive worldwide. What percentage of TB foals get to the races, and how many of those are successful? Breeders have to start considering what else their horses can do if they can't race or breed. If a horse can't race past two, then what? People with field hunters, hunters and jumpers want durability, stamina, strength and a good disposition. They will keep buying European warmbloods instead of TBs if the American TB is too fragile and flighty and can't run past 7 furlongs. Breeders are ignoring a huge other market in their quest for 18-month-olds that run in 21 and change. That bothers me. Not every foal will be a career race horse or breeding horse. Without the other parts of the equation, they have nowhere to go but the meat market. And that is just wrong.

re: Is the American Thoroughbred a Separate Breed?

makarra — Sat, 25 Sep 2010 22:41:42 GMT

I agree that retiring stallions after their three year old year is absurd. That is probably the best view of our current economic crisis...there is suddenly more money at the track to be made than in the breeding shed. AND...fortune has given us two exceptional horses that are fillies. Great timing. Eskendereya? Yes, I would breed to him. Possibly under different circumstances he might have returned to training, but due to banks being involved it made economic sense to retire him rather than risk him not coming back at the same level. I saw brilliance in his last race, and that one exceptional performance is enough for me. The deciding factor? Price. Keep him reasonably priced and they will be begging to breed to him. Theoretically, if I had an unlimited budget, I still would like him around $15,000. After that I would have to ask myself a lot of questions.

Consider this scenario: by the time Stallion A has runners, and he has shuttled each year, it is possible for him to have over 1000 offspring. If he is a success, he dilutes the gene pool; if he is a failure, he pollutes the gene pool.All in 3 or 4 years time. Commercially, if he is successful, he is devalued due to sheer numbers, supply and demand.

re: Is the American Thoroughbred a Separate Breed?

Rachel — Sat, 25 Sep 2010 17:05:32 GMT

What's very interesting is how many great European horses come from American lines, like Goldikova, or a lot of USA lines up close, like Sea The Stars, Makfi, Rip Van Winkle...

Thoroughbreds becoming "Investment Portfolios" was a bad thing for the breed. Brilliant speed in under 10 is ridiculous...of course, the proof is in the pudding of how many Triple Crown winners we've had recently...

re: Is the American Thoroughbred a Separate Breed?

Linda / Maryland — Sat, 25 Sep 2010 16:50:46 GMT

I most certainly do not have the experience or knowledge to get into this discussion.

I would only hope that the breeders would try to keep the thoroughbred horse strong enough to keep from breaking down.

It is devastating and heartbreaking to see them run and fall to pieces.

I guess I am just getting old and can't stand it anymore. When I watched the Kentucky Derby the year that Big Brown won and Eight Belle's broke down at the end of the race, it kills me.

re: Is the American Thoroughbred a Separate Breed?

pa male — Sat, 25 Sep 2010 14:57:58 GMT

Is it true that the German stud book does not admit horses which raced on medication?

This would bolster German breeding in my book.

Scot's reply: The rules are a bit more complex than that, but the simple answer is that, for all intents and purposes, stallions that ran on drugs are ineligible for the German stud. I join you in applauding this step!

re: Is the American Thoroughbred a Separate Breed?

Bellwether — Sat, 25 Sep 2010 11:53:00 GMT

p$...$PEED KILL$...& IT$ A GOOD DAY TO DIE!!!...LONG LIVE THE AMERCIAN T-BRED BABY!!!...ty...

re: Is the American Thoroughbred a Separate Breed?

Bellwether — Sat, 25 Sep 2010 11:21:45 GMT

MO$T OF TO-DAYS HORSE HANDLERS N AMERCIA R NOE WHERE CLOSE TO EDDIE SWEAT..."THE MAN" THAT MADE "BIG RED" A FREAK...THAT$ RITE..."THE GROOM"...ty...

re: Is the American Thoroughbred a Separate Breed?

FourCats — Sat, 25 Sep 2010 07:17:28 GMT

It's really very simple. There is very little incentive for breeders in the U.S. to breed distance-loving horses.

First, most owners of race horses lose money (often lots of it). So, in order to try to stay "in the game" and survive, they look for early developers that can win as 2yr olds. Those races are all short sprints, particularly in the spring and summer. Thus, the horses that sell well at the sales are those considered likely to be early developers. And when those horses get older, the racetracks have to card more sprints (and fewer distance races) to accommodate them. It becomes a vicious cycle.

Second, the yearling sales are heavily attended by pinhookers. As resellers, they have little interest in how a horse will perform past the 2yr old spring sales. And, for those sales, it is only important that the horses look good sprinting an eighth or a quarter of a mile.

Third, how many stallions are given much of a chance if their 1st crop doesn't produce multiple winners and/or stakes winners? Stallions that could be fine as the distances get longer and their offspring mature are often never given that opportunity. (Note that these stallions are often sent to locations such as South America where their distance-loving offspring end up doing well.)

Fourth, there is very little financial incentive to race a quality horse past the age of 3. For such horses, a breeding career is much more lucrative than anything they can earn on the track. Which means that, except for a few races like the Derby, the BC Classic or the Travers, there is nothing to be gained to have a horse that excells past 1 1/8 miles.

re: Is the American Thoroughbred a Separate Breed?

sceptre — Sat, 25 Sep 2010 01:10:52 GMT

Pedigree Ann-

A few anecdotes fall well short of evidence sufficient to prove a (your) position. Also, of those you cite, few, if any, could remotely be considered as pure German. You failed to mention the foundation mare, Schonbrunn, which, along with Monsun, may be the best example of your point. Fact is, though, had it not been for Monsun's great success I'm sure we wouldn't be having this conversation. Sunday Silence was a great stallion in Japan. Does that mean that we should suddenly embrace Japanese bloodstock in general? Once again, these topics are all about perspective. Mine tells me that through the years German bloodstock has been woefully unsuccessful on the international scene (at any distance). Yes, I'd like to have a Monsun and, perhaps, one of his good sons, some daughters and, perhaps, a few good ones from the Schonbrunn line, but likely little else of German heritage. As said, the Germans, as a group, are FAR inferior to our own. If I wished to infuse more stamina in the American thoroughbred breed, aside from above, I'd look elsewhere (probably within our own gene pool).