Older Mares and Quality of Foals: What's the Connection?

re: Older Mares and Quality of Foals: What's the Connection?

Avalyn Hunter — Mon, 17 Jan 2011 14:25:31 GMT

Some good points have been raised here, for instance the confounding of birth order with maternal age. It would be good to know what problems have more to do with advanced maternal age and which have more to do with the number of previous pregnancies the mare has sustained. A 20-year-old mare being bred for her 14th foal may well have different issues and needs than an identical mare being bred for her 4th foal, and this would be a good subject for future inquiry, perhaps in a specific article on management of the older broodmare.

To me, the whole concept of the blog is the relatively informal presentation of an opinion, a point of view, a commentary, or a brief summary of some situation or question, followed by opportunities for response and discussion. We've got a pretty intelligent readership here with a wealth of collective experience and expertise, and I'd like to hear more from those who are willing to share their knowledge or point out further questions that they'd be interested in having answered in future articles.

re: Older Mares and Quality of Foals: What's the Connection?

Different Angle — Thu, 13 Jan 2011 13:27:29 GMT

Sceptre, the more you offer, the more it is clear that you're losing it...

Trying to suggest that "mice and insects" are of any relation at all to Thoroughbred performance on the race track is purely absurd. (let me guess: you love a good, old-fashioned flea circus?).

As an admitted "Breeder", "stallion owner" and "(race horse) owner" you are clearly from the last group to whom common sense in these areas would ever reach.

The old idea of buying and/or breeding some cheap plug and only then making up data in severely biased fashion to suggest you have a chance is fully transparent in 2011.

When you were back there breeding the likes of Dr. Fager and Damascus it was far more difficult to amass meaningful data than it is in the 2000's. Merely having the data doesn't exactly get one very far, but when made to study the data in considerable detail one catches on fairly quickly UNLESS ONE IS INHERENTLY BIASED BY MOTIVES OTHER THAN PURE UNDERSTANDING.

When trying to duplicate Dr. Fager and Damascus and instead landing in a $5000 N2L race for Louisiana-breds at some point past a Thoroughbred's 6th birthday one's breeder should start to figure out that personal bias has ruined his objectivity.

Now Sceptre, you did breed Dr. Fager and Damascus, didn't you??

In closing, Sceptre, why not attempt the unbiased observation for the first time in your long life?

re: Older Mares and Quality of Foals: What's the Connection?

sceptre — Thu, 13 Jan 2011 01:56:56 GMT

Different Angle-

You may believe that you "utilize" "a lot more data" than some when arriving at your conclusion, but it's quite possible that a) your data isn't sufficient, and/or b) your ability to integrate such data is wanting. There have been some CONTROLLED studies on this very subject using models such as mice and insects. My reading suggests that here the jury is still out. And, there have been no controlled studies (age of mare/vigor of offspring) on the thoroughbred racehorse. So, despite this, you feel you've seen enough to be convinced of your assertion? Well, for 50 years I've been actively involved as a breeder, stallion owner, owner, pedigree consultant, etc., and have always approached it in a rather academic manner. So, for what that's worth, I can tell you that I don't share your conviction/certitude. Please, however, don't infer from this that I'm in favor of impregnating aged mares-I'm not, but for reasons differing from, perhaps, your own. A pregnant elderly mare runs a far greater risk of perishing due to uterine artery rupture, etc. But, the more one accepts that older mares are valueless, the greater will be the numbers euthanized-it's an undeniable reality. Consider this as you venture down the supposed "improving of the breed" high road...The real answers to this question reside mostly within the spheres of genetics (chromosomal aberration relative to vigor), and equine reproduction (fetal/maternal environment). Absent a truly controlled study, those areas of science may supply the best clue-rather than your no doubt less than rigorous investigation...As an aside, one can (through observation) make much the same claims about aged stallions and, for that matter, there is much raw data to suggest that first year and second year stallions outsire all others. But, as we know, there are other variables that need be considered. Similar may hold true for older mares, but the variables may be less apparent.

re: Older Mares and Quality of Foals: What's the Connection?

Different Angle — Wed, 12 Jan 2011 20:44:04 GMT

Some of us utilize a lot more data than a mere "cursory glance at the Jockey Club stats".

Additionally, in no way are "management differences" the "PRIMARY" causative factor to the clear trends showing a decline in relative ability of foals as mares age. It is without question a biological function.

The "jury" is most definitely not "still out" on the impact of aged mares on the declining ability of their foals. The statistics some of us see and utilize every day are proof positive of this, as they have been for 30 years.

This is not about "being viable for breeding". Whether a mare can conceive will answer that in the affirmative.

This is about horsepeople needing to address the statistical reality right in front of them before purchasing an equine lawnmower down the road for $400 and breeding it to whateverstalliononesunclehasafreeseasonto and convincing anyone that it would be reasonable to let oneself believe it could be the next Kentucky Derby winner.

Horsepeople themselves are directly responsible for the deterioration of the Thoroughbred breed in North America over the past 25 years.

Just because your 7yo daughter picked some pretty horse out of a sale, and you bought it for $1800 as a weanling, and it raced four times at Narragansett without finishing in the top 3, does not mean that you are helping the breed by continuing to breed that mare to age 25 or beyond.

As for these random examples of old-ER mares producing talented foals, lets not even start the bidding with mares less than 20 at the time of foaling. (and of course there will still be lots and lots of examples, because random genetics are involved).

People sitting around and attempting to convince themselves that their 7yo daughter is the exception are now here in spirit trying to deny trends that clearly show pronounced decrease in relative ability of the offspring of Thoroughbred mares as they grow older, with age 20 being particularly significant.

Finally, far too many horse breeders first arrive at what they can afford only to then pretend to find data which supports their marginal chances at doing considerably more than what one could reasonably expect of somebody with those means.

How about first taking an unbiased look at the reality right in front of you and only then determining whether you can afford to get anywhere given that reality.

re: Older Mares and Quality of Foals: What's the Connection?

Love 'em all — Wed, 12 Jan 2011 14:22:32 GMT

Lady Pepper, dam of Pepper's Pride, was 16 at the time of PP's birth. The year before at 15, LP had a filly that was also a good runner. And, Lady Pepper had 49 starts to her credit as a racer.

On and off the track, Lady Pepper was one tough "lady". Let's not forget Lady Pepper.

re: Older Mares and Quality of Foals: What's the Connection?

WinngColrz — Tue, 11 Jan 2011 22:58:43 GMT

I've also always wondered if the same owner/trainer combination plays into a certain progeny line. Certainly if only certain lines always end up in the same hands and the same training and upbringing happens, it can be either successful or not. So if a particular cross always ends up in a less than high percentage trainer's hands, will that be the fault therefore, of the breeding lines? Would the same cross show different results with a different trainer(s)? Unless you strategically follow such placements you're unlikely to know. I've always just thought that to be interesting.

Lisa J

OKC

re: Older Mares and Quality of Foals: What's the Connection?

sceptre — Tue, 11 Jan 2011 22:24:04 GMT

There may be not hardly a grain of truth in anything offered by those who replied-it's all anecdote/conjecture/supposition or even inaccuracy...BTW, Gosley's somewhat off topic tangent on *Princequillo mistakenly cited Sir Gaylord as example of his dam's sire's ability to sire sound runners. Sir Gaylord, the morning line favorite, broke down on the day before the 1962 KY Derby-I well remember it...The subject matter of this blog is an important one. Blog authors, such as yourself, would do well to first do more investigative reporting, rather than merely introducing topics such as this for random discussion. Why not, at least, first place a few calls to repro vets and/or the appropriate departments at UK, etc.? Better to try to educate, rather than merely entertain-or simply toss something like this into the air.

re: Older Mares and Quality of Foals: What's the Connection?

NancyP — Tue, 11 Jan 2011 21:47:34 GMT

I would say a deeper study is required before concluding an older mare is no longer viable for breeding. A cursory glance at the Jockey Club Stats does not provide a full comprehensive evaluation.

Knowing human nature, my thought is that all mares are not given quality health care during their life and breeding spans - same holds true for humans.

All mares do not get bred to alpha stallions, nor do they get the highest quality food, some time off between foals to allow their bodies to return to a normal balance, and real good medical care to keep their their teeth, musco-skeletal and reproductive systems optimal. Exercise, other than what they provide to themselves in the paddock, is most likely non-existent.

Not all owners are equal in their pocketbooks, nor feel the high level of responsibility that should be a prime requirement for owning, breeding, selling and racing a female equine.

Females that have had hard training and racing campaigns exhaust their bodies and reproductive capabilities just like human female athletes who wait years to conceive a child - if at all!

re: Older Mares and Quality of Foals: What's the Connection?

sceptre — Tue, 11 Jan 2011 21:25:01 GMT

Dangerous business (poor science) drawing conclusions without accounting for all variables (oftentimes impossible to recognize all variables). Not to say that you, Ms. Hunter, recited conclusions, but your evidence (albeit "reasonable") offered was decidedly one-sided. It's my understanding that the jury remains very much out on these matters, re-equine maternal age as it relates to produce performance. And, for now, we may be doing a disservice to older mares to conclude otherwise.

re: Older Mares and Quality of Foals: What's the Connection?

Different Angle — Tue, 11 Jan 2011 20:48:26 GMT

I am not a breeder, but instead I am someone who studies and publishes data relating to the reduced probabilities of relative noteworthy success by the offspring of older mares.

"Birth Order" is mostly irrelevant here beyond it being a factor of age. To say that a runner is more or less likely to be a Group I winner based only on his being a mare's 4th foal vs. being her 2nd or 6th foal is absurd. That would be akin to saying that a man's 19th offspring is more likely to be a terrorist than is his 3rd offspring, based entirely on Osama Bin Laden's having been 19th of 54 among his father's offspring.

Secretariat having been produced by Somethingroyal at age 18 is not entirely out of range either, regardless of whether he was her 13th, 4th, or 20th foal (had there been multiple sets of twins in there).

Generally speaking, when you get to age 20 and up (age of mare at offspring's foaling) then the trends become especially significant. (and with 30,000-ish T'breds born every year, there are sure to be numerous exceptions)

A far more telling study than one dealing with mere birth order, would be one cross-referencing relative talent of offspring from the same mares, according to the age of the mare at foaling.

As stated by others here, birth order trends are skewed more significantly by other factors such as stallion quality based on the performance of early foals in said birth order.

(where whether a mare retires at 4 or at 6 will not impact the relative ability of her first foal)

Finally, you are only trying to gain as much understanding as you can through "trends". You are not to be expected to arrive at a formula for perfection. Get as many trends working in your favor as possible and then do the best with what you can afford at the time.

re: Older Mares and Quality of Foals: What's the Connection?

fastrackfred — Tue, 11 Jan 2011 19:53:27 GMT

It is my feeling that a decline in the quality of foals as a function of advancing age in the dam is multifactorial, with management differences being the primary causative factor(s).

Suffice it to say that having multiple, consecutive foals leave most biologic organisms severely mineral depleted. Add lactations to the pregnancy/lactation cycle and ask yourself. What can you expect. These are animals and any physiologist wil tell you that rest and it's subsequent recovery is an important component of any physically taxing equation . So, it benefits us, to utilize more nurse mares for our middle aged and older mares. Assuring a very high plane of nutrition is also mandatory for maximum repair and recovery. The occasional "year off" would serve the mare and susequent offspring as well. There are a number of breeders, who, with a similar mindset have been able to produce high quality offspring from well managed mares.

re: Older Mares and Quality of Foals: What's the Connection?

GOSLEY — Tue, 11 Jan 2011 17:11:30 GMT

So many factors involved. Has the older mare ever really been bred to the RIGHT stallion? How many breeders work to a particular stud fee (commercial consideration) rather than go up or just as importantly down to find the stallion that matches. No question the quality of foal does TEND to taper off but this is not written in stone anywhere I know of. So much hindsight in the breeding game. Show me a surprisingly good horse and I will show you where it came from. They say Princequillo could straighten out any unsoundness a mare brought to his court and that of course meant you could train that individual hard and it would stand up to it. Ergo Secretariat and Sir Gaylord - both out of somethingroyal by Princequillo. The old Prince sure had one piece of the puzzle!

re: Older Mares and Quality of Foals: What's the Connection?

Pedigree Ann — Tue, 11 Jan 2011 15:37:58 GMT

Add to your list Honor an Offer, a 1975 mare who produced Sardula in 1981, at 16, and Imperial Gesture in 1999, at age 24. Her last G1 winner was clearly an instance of breeding a proven mare to a new sire, in this case to a good in Langfuhr. I have a friend who breeds sport horses whose unregistered TB mare was producing good, strong foals into her upper 20s.

I am of the opinion that it is a combination of genetic and nutritional factors. Some mares may thrive on typical care, but others may have special needs that go unfulfilled. Let's face it - every pregnancy drains the body of nutrients and if she can't get them back by the time her new fetus starts drawing them down, she has less to give her offspring each successive year. This may be why for some mares, the foals after a barren year are better; they've had time to build up their health to a more optimum level again.

re: Older Mares and Quality of Foals: What's the Connection?

green0 — Tue, 11 Jan 2011 01:36:04 GMT

Well, I do wish that breeders would retire mares who do not produce quality earlier so as to lessen the number of poor quality horses produced every year... but...

For myself, I would take my chances on a 16 year old stakes winning mare over an unraced 4 year old any day. It just seems better to breed quality to quality rather than unknown to quality.

I think a mare who was a quality individual herself will tend to throw quality throughout her producing lifetime if bred correctly (and treated correctly as in the right feed, dental care, etc.). A mare who has not produced anything of note from age 5-17 stands little to no chance of producing a G1 horse when she is 18.

re: Older Mares and Quality of Foals: What's the Connection?

JAJ — Mon, 10 Jan 2011 17:40:26 GMT

I think a lot of first-year stallion managers/owners will try to buy up the mare that is a decent producer to try to "make" their new stallion. Since very few stallions ever make it, the decent mare produces an inferior foal through no fault of her own.

Statistics can be misleading. All broodmares produce one foal. Fewer produce five and even fewer produce 10. That very fact will skew the statistically "best" production of broodmares to their earlier foals since there are far, far fewer 10th, 11th and 12th foals ever born than first, second or third foals.