Oh this is good news.  I am so happy he is back on the track and feeling better.  Matz sure did give him plenty of time to heal.  God Bless his huge heart.  Nicanor I love you and just take it one step at a time.  No need to try to prove yourself.  You already did that.  :)

Way to go Nicanor !, Only 16 days since his injury, He must be all healed up or I doubt they would Work him out, I say about three weeks until second race, probably dirt, It would be cool if he could race on his real Birthday(March 15). Anyways, Godspeed Nicanor...

Way to go Nicky!!  Keep up the good work.  We're all praying for you.  Godspeed.  

What a joy that Nicanor breezed today, I just love that horse...

Greg J Why do you think MM will put him on the dirt ????????  I hope he runs him on turf but whatever he does, it is fine.  Matz knows what he is doing.  :)

Glad to see Nicky is back on the work pad.  Time is not as good as last at 4F but they might be taking it easy on him.  Question is Turf or Dirt.  Maybe they should try him on turf for his next race.  Regardless his is my boy and win or lose he will always be special and get my bet.

Greg J.

The Big B-Day win aye?  Yeah by 15 lengths.  :)

Stardust, Just a hunch, but He trained today on dirt, raced on dirt, And with everything that happened with that first race, I just think changing to turf right now would be just a little to much for the Big little guy, And since Michael said he would race in early March, He might only get one or two more work-outs, So I just think Turf is too much of a change from his routine and everything he has gone through.

2 days after Valentines day.  Aaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhh Nicanor got to spend Saturday in the barn with the roses.  :)  I wonder if he hates roses like Barbaro did.  

Best part of this update is knowing his leg has healed nicely.  Next, knowing he's ready and willing to give it another try soon.  

Nicanor is a true sport and seems to want to please those closest to him, which has to be a good sign.  

Thanks for such a positive update.

I'm so glad that Nic is better and back to work. I'm just glad that he is healed. Racing or not it doesn't matter to me as long as he is healthy and having fun in life.

Good to hear he's able to work! Thanks, also, for the "Siblings" article. In recent history there were Budroyale, Tiznow, Tizbud, and Tiz Dubai from Cee's Tizzy in California. Tiznow was the most accomplished, but Budroyale was able to finish second in his Breeders Cup appearance. Nicanor, keep up the good work! Learn from all your experiences!

Greg

Yeah I never thought of that.  I am sure that Nicanors hoof is 100% healed.  I don't think MM would be working him if there was even a remote possibility of injury.  It took him a little over two weeks to heal.  Aaaaaaaaahhhhh such a lucky horse.  So many trainers would have had him on the track way before this.  Love ya Matz. :)

Now that Nicanor has gone through his first race, he is probably saying to himself "OK now I know how to do this".  

With the excitment/disappointment of his debut now behind he could still become a very good horse in his own way ...shedding the weight of Barbaro's reputation.  There will still be a lot of interest in this horse.  He is a real handsome specimen.

Welcome back, beautiful boy!  Can't wait 'til we see you again.  Thank you Amanda and Michael for this information.  We love him so.

Most excellent news!  Thanks Amanda.   Nice and easy workout, isn't that what you expect from Michael Matz and his staff?  How fortunate we are that he's the trainer of Nicanor. Everthings going to be alright, I just know it. Oh yeah, thank you Amanda for including Avalyn Hunters' piece on siblings. Maybe some of Nicanors' naysayers will learn a little something and be a little more positive when discussing his possibilities. I certainly have learned a great deal reading her works. When it comes to pedigree analysis, Avalyn Hunter rocks!

Kath from SC

So true.  We get it.  :)  He is in the best of hands.  Man I miss the big guy.  Love you Barbaro.  

As far as the article on full siblings of champions not doing well, I don't think we really know what kind of a horse Nicanor will be at this point.  His race at Gulfstream is a throw out race since he grabbed his quarter.  Yesterday at Santa Anita a full sister to Sweet Catomine won her graded race very impressively.  The analysts said that she may even be better than Sweet Catomine.  Only time will tell about how Nicanor will do.  Regardless I wish the best for him and all of Barbaro's siblings.

I so happy to know that Nicanor has healing been healing well from his injury.  I noticed that when Matz said that they were taking it very easy on him could mean that he is still may have a little more healing to do from his injury.  I believe that Nicanor may have gotten faster because if Nicanor was doing the workout out just to get him back on track the time that he got is pretty good taking into account that he still a little bit injured.  Other than that I know that Nicanor is going to do well in his next race.  I hope he stays safe and sound and has a happy life and doesn't get hurt anymore.  Thanks Amanda for the update on Nicanor.  

Thank you so much for the update on Nicanor.  We're all so interested in how he's doing.  It will be very interesting to see exactly what he did learn from the first race - Peter said there would be changes after.  Let's see how he puts it all together. I, for one, believe he's going to establish himself as a great racehorse, he's just maturing a little later, that doesn't mean he won't be great!  Can't wait to see how he progresses. Thanks again for all the updates. We love them all!

So glad Nicanor's back on the track! I have been watching for my Equibase Trainer Notification for Nicanor's name to pop up and was SO exited when it did.

Just a thought about the first race -- it really can't be considered a throw-away.  There is so much learned from any endeavor;  Nicanor showed many positive things in that race, which have been discussed.  To throw that away would be to discount his getting injured, yet staying with it; pushing hard to move up into the pack and crossing over through them, only to realize what it feels like to hit that wall and not be able to push forward -- the need for pacing, more stamina, more strength.

Nicanor's style is different.  Maybe it takes him longer to see what his ceiling is.  But we shouldn't dismiss the great value of that race for his accumulative experiences.  He's gotta' know all that feels like, and see where he's gotta' dig deep, and if he wants to dig deep.

I look at that debut as something very important to Nicanor and valuable for his future. We shouldn't take that away from him, because it offers the chance to be a better runner.

Just my perspective.  I think we all are so fond of Nicanor and his family, and because of that I don't want to discount any part of the story that will make Nicanor who he will become.  That race may end up being one of the best things that could have happened to him.

BTW, so glad to see a respectful and good tone back on the blog board!

Glad to hear that he's healed, and ready to start training again. Slow and steady with the return to workouts would, of course, be Matz's way of getting back on track. I wonder if he was waiting for the other horses to show up in the gates, and expecting it to spring open? I could just picture him walking to the gate with his ears perked up and thinking "let's go"!

Thanks Amanda!  

The linked article was well written.  Those with ultra high expectations of Nicanor being a super star should read it carefully: "In truth, of course, the odds are stacked against a good runner being duplicated by a sibling." & "The proverbial lightning seldom strikes twice, and the odds that a truly great horse will be duplicated in a sibling are slim even under the best of circumstances."

Anything is possible, but Nicanor could only accomplish the status of being a decent allowance horse, but that's not so bad.  Of the estimated 37,000 horses foaled in 2006, only around 400 were nominated to the KY Derby, 20 may get in, and only one will win.

Nothing wrong with being an allowance horse.  Without them and the claimers, the Bloodhorse Blog wouldn't exist because racing would be an even smaller sport/business than it is.

Enjoy Nicanor, but don't get your hopes up too high.

Those who "get it" should "get" the whole racing concept, not just a few chosen horses & connections.

And remember to place some WAGERS to support racing!!!!

I'm so happy that Nicanor is doing well with his injury and that he'll soon be racing again. So his first race was a learning experience. He stumbled out of the gate but at least he didn't just sit down in the gate like Country Star did this weekend and refuse to move. (Although that was pretty funny) Nicanor looked very serious and focused in that first race. I'm sure he'll have a great racing career but in the end, it really doesn't matter to his loving fans. Win or Lose - he's our boy and we love him just the way he is and will continue to love him whether he ever races again or not. I also know that Barbaro was something SPECIAL and that SPECIAL doesn't come every day. To quote Michael Matz, Barbaro was indeed "the Horse of a Lifetime".

Glad to hear he is healing nicely.  Look forward to his new baby brother's arrival!

Barbara

I agree with you.  I think that whatever Nicanor does, there is a reason for it.  It isn't just fuke that he was injured two days past the 29th.  I think there is a huge Angel that is watching Nicanor that is hard to comprehend.  I believe that this family is going to get ten fold back what they have given since we lost our Barbaro.  We have to remember there is a reason for everything.  There is a reason WHY it was Prado on that horse on the 31tst. Barbaro's legacy will only get stonger in time to make the sport honest and good for the horses and everyone involved.  He still has not won that 7th race.  We will cross that finish line one day.  :)

Amanda thankyou so much for this article.  It was a wonderful way to start the week.  :)

We all so love you Nicanor, keep healing and the very best to you always. Barbaro has built a wonderful family to support you.

Thats great! Thanks for posting this!

Matz should show Nic a video of Pioneer's last race , maybe he'll learn something!

Best post of the day here, was from Dona Chepa.

I am all for ANY horse attracting new fans, but there's a vast difference between liking A horse, and loving horse racing over-all.

Hopefully, those new to the sport here will "branch out" so to speak, and immerse themselves in the entire sport, as that's when we can count new fan base members! :)

I started out too with a single horse, back in 1978, but he opened up the entire sport to me, and I will be forever grateful that I was hooked thanks to him, and devoured everything about horse racing from then on.

It would have been a shame to miss ALL those amazing horses, and what's great about this sport, due to getting TOO hung up on just one.

It's been 31 years, and I cannot fathom having missed Curlin (as but one example!), right now, because I had stopped at just one all those years ago!

So many more to also love and follow and cheer on out there :)

So glad to hear Nicanor is back to work. Like Mr. Matz said he beleives Nic. got some learning from his last race. Can't wait for his race next month. Good luck boy, I know you will shine.

CurlinTimes2

You are right.  They all need to be noticed and loved.  There are so many beautiful horses and they all deserve the same caring treatment.  :)

Go, Nicky, go. Win or lose, you'll still be very special. And the fact that you are still persevering and trying to be a racehorse makes your efforts even more special. Take care and stay healthy and happy.

Amanda, thank you for all the information you bring to us.  Your brilliant idea for Valentine's Day was just what we needed and it served to calm things down on this blog.

Thank you for your efforts and know that we all deeply appreciate all you do for us.

Thank you for the update, Amanda.  It's wonderful to hear that he has healed well enough at this point to get back to training.  Knowing that he is in such good hands, I will continue to wish him the best.

Karen, PA - thank you for such a well thought out response - you are the voice of reason.

So excited to see this news.  Glad you are doing well.

I can't tell ( you-all )what joy Barbaro brought to me, but seeing his brother about to resume racing its just delightful. Love transends all, gives such joy to the day and makes one want to run for the brother's to get them over the line.....Stardust, many thanks for what you say about the brothers....and everyone else....

Good news.  Thanks for keeping us up-to-date.

Hey nick glad you are healing. I have been worried about you.I know there are alot of people out there that love you very much.I'm one of them. Good Luck Sweetheart

If anyone wants to see what Nicanor could have done in his first start, watch Mr. Fantasy's races. H ewon each by nearly 9 lengths and starts next in the Gotham. Both of those races are on Youtube.

I do think Nicanor should do better next time, either 1st, or 4th. If he has a dramatic improvement, we should see him step up in class. He may need a shorter distance, too. I like him, but he is not yet a world beater, and he needs to prove he isn't just a product of hope. I started looking at other 3 year old prospects to blunt my disapointment. Meanwhile, I have Stardom Bound (filly) and Mr. Fantasy.

For the really daring Nicanor fans, let's run him in the Gotham. Why not...and to those who like Curlin...he lost to Rags to Riches!  

I just wanted to let everyone know that I probably won’t be picking Nicanor to win at the Kentucky Derby. I believe either Pioneerof the Nile or Old Fashioned will win the Kentucky Derby.  But as this is The Barbaro Brother’s Blog, I can only casually mention these horses as discussing something other Nicanor, Lentenor or his mom and dad (sire and dam) damages the continuity of this blog that Amanda works so hard to maintain. I absolutely will be watching the Kentucky Derby this year, even though Nicanor won’t be there, because I have two other favorite horses. And I know how to pick my favorite horses. As no one has placed a photo of Pioneerof the Nile in Thoroughbred Horse Pedigree Query, I need to peruse the news stories of Bloodhorse to find my Kentucky Derby horse. My other Derby horse, Old Fashioned, is already there. Both or gorgeous horses and have made lots of money.

Nicanor will be a real three on March 15 and I plan on getting myself a piece of birthday cake to celebrate his birthday.

I really believe if more owners and trainers get more pictures and stories about their horses, like the Jackson's and M.M. do on the web, people would get a better sense of what goes on in the world of thoroughbred horses.

Nicanor, I think you are the greatest, but never let it be said that you are my only greatest.

And I don't mind hearing from the best of the best in regards to learning about horses, but when it becomes a lecture, I tune you out.

Thanks Amanda, and I might just do out, but I just wanted to let some people know that although Nicanor is near and dear to me, he isn't my only favorite.

To often people forget that the reason that we all ooh and ah Nicanor is that this is his blog. If my other two favorites had their own special blog, I'd be oohing and ahing them there as well.

Ida Lee or anyone, could you please elaborate on what exactly Country Star did this weekend and where?  Many thanks.  Would love to read about it.  She's something else, from wha little I've been able to find about her.

Well said, Kathy, I too have other Favorites, Just a quick mention, Since Nicanor will not be in the derby, I will give everyone the winning trifecta (lol),

1.Friesan Fire, 2.The beautiful Filly, Stardom Bound(if she runs), 3. This one is for Phil(hate the name, love the horse)

Also holding out hope for Smarty's Kid and Nic's Bud, Rockland....Well, your welcome everyone (lol), That is a trifecta BOX....((Sorry Amanda, I couldn't resist mentioning these four, Thx))

Amanda, what ever became of Jerboa, an early workmate of Nicanor's?  I have her in my Virtual Stable, but she has not posted any works since her first one (which was fast) nor has she raced anywhere, as far as I can see?  Whatever became of her?

Amanda.  I have a really hard time with racing because of all of the breakdowns and one of the reasons that I try to stay on course with the Barbaro bunch is because I believe that they will be well talken care of.  I would love to get back into horseracing again (I use to wager and I got bloodhorse ever week) but I stopped at the demise of Eight Belles.  I couldn't take it anymore.  

I would get attached to a horse and they would go down.  It was really putting me on a rollacoaster so I veared away from racing simple because I didn't want to have to deal with the pain.  I am sort of back in it but I still find it difficult to latch on to another horse other than the Barbaro family for that very reason.  

I wish I could get through this but I don't know. Thing simply just need to be better for the horses and all involved.  I would love nothing more than for that to happen.  Is it true that all of the horses in the KD last year had N. Dancers bloodline in them?  If that is true, don't you feel that something is wrong there?  I really hope I am not asking questions will upset you.  I am just curious and I felt if I put it here, others may learn from your answers.  :)

Hi Greg.  

Amanda correct me if I am wrong.  I see a lot of Dynaformer in Lentenor with that darker color.  That was a beautiful vid.  I have never see that.  Oh man what a well tempered horse.  He so reminds me of Barbaro with his manners.  Thank You so much.  :)

Barbaro never got outta the gate very well either, and as far as the article on full siblings goes. 2 Year old champion filly Sweet Catomine and her full sister Life is Sweet can make a pretty nice argument that lightening can strike twice.

Nicanor looks like a turf horse! He ran a credible race under the circumstances and he has a very quick action, if he can stretch out and cover ground anything similar to the way his brother could he's gonna be a good horse.

Stardust,

The problem is inbreeding.  Native Dancer had weak legs. That is why he only raced 22 times in his career; while other horses raced 40 to 60 times.  What happened to Eight Belles also happened to Ruffian.  Look at their pedigrees.  To wrap it up, the terrible inbreeding and Native Dancer are to blame.

Did anyone watch Evita Argentia's race?( They have it here on Bloodhorse.com) She barrels up through the stretch like the Bionic Woman! It reminded me of Nic's blast to the pack in his race, maybe his next one he will replicate Evita's? :-)

Greg J: where can we find you if the trifecta doesn't win? :-)

Marigold/Amanda: I think Country Star is just plain stubborn! A real mare's mare! LOL

when La Ville rouge foals give pictures and more pictures of nicanor

Marigold;

I did some checking on the web, and found out that Country Star was injured in the Gazelle Stakes last fall. She reared up in the starting gate and threw her jockey, suffered cuts on her belly that had to be stitched. Probably the reason for the "sit-in" this last time. :)

Great to here he's back to work! I am glad they are taking easy on him at first and building him up, cause that would just hurt him more if they pushed him hard with a break like that.Love Nicanor! See you soon!

Mary

I totally agree with you.  That is why I was stunned at last years Derby.  I loved both Ruffian and Eight Belles.  They were both so beautiful and it just breaks my heart to this day.  The breeding is a very important thing and that is where it begins.  When the industry is forced to do something about that, is when things will start looking better.  So I have heard.  :)

horsenut23

Boy I remember that.  That was really freaky.  

Dying to find a video of Country Star Sitting in Gate, I heard it was hysterical !, Also, If trifecta doesn't win, I will be here in Connecticut drowning in my sorrow, lol....I am telling you though, The more I see Stardom Bound (Check out , YOUTUBE), The more I love her kick in the stretch...(also, check out Nic's race again, He sure had a quick burst when edgar asked...)

Also, Amanda with your connections, Anyway you can let us know how Spenditallbaby is doing since hER surgery on Jan. 30.?, It would mean a great deal to me, Thanks....

Greg J;

I watched the Stardom Bound video on Bloodhorse, that girl wanted to win!!!!!

I don't think Prado "asked" for the kick, I think Nic just took off on his own. Prado's interview after the race w/Matz, stated that when "he went like that" sounded like it was Nic's decision, not Edgar's.LOL

I was watching HRTV and thought I heard the anouncers say Country Star flipped in the gate and then sat down. Does anyone know if she did or only staged a sit in?

They need to be very careful with Stardom Bound; her sire has a lot of Native Dancer in his pedigree, but he also has Nasrullah = speed and strength, strong bones.  On her female side you have Princequillo, who I believe inherited his large heart and passed it on down to his daughters which = endurance. She may be a super horse, hard to tell.          

Good to hear Nicanor is on the mend.  I think he has a lot to learn about racing before we see a "race" from him. IMHO, Prado had little control until Nicanor got tired, then I think Prado could get him to the outside and out of the way, a very smart move.  

I think he can be a good race horse but no expectations for him. Siblings can be very different.

I remember when I first viewed the whole trio, I thought Lentanor may make a pretty good race horse, but Nicanor may be the better sire.  Who knows?  Looking at the pictures above, my thoughts were that maybe Matz needs another shot at jumping- with Nicanor!

I hope they find his distance, venue, and style before too many races go by.

Have nothing but good trips Nicanor.

Greg J., you are right on about Nicanor.  He is fast.  He reminds me of Secretariat in the Preakness.  Secretariat was dead last, and Ron Turcotte took him to the outside, and the horse took off and never looked back.  Turcotte let him go.  Magical.  It's hard to tell what Nicanor would have done if he had not been injured at the gate.  I do know that he is fearless.  Look at his pedigree, I have.

hope nicanor can do better next time. he's in good hands with mr. matz, who's always tried to do what's best for his horses.

Okay Kathy,   you might want to skip this entry cause I've got some serious preaching to do for Mary and others that have said Native Dancer had bad ankles and passed them along to his progeny.

First of all Mary, don't feel special by what I going to write because you're not the first and I suppose you won't be the last to say Native Dancer had weak legs.  

First of all, it is a lie, it is ignorance, and it is profane to say something like that when there is not a shred of evidence anywhere, ever that substantiates such a statement.  Ralph Kercheval, Sagamore Farms manager said he was the strongest thoroughbred he had ever seen. Strong in the shoulders and hindquarters, he was a graceful but powerfull runner with a Life magazine measured stride of twenty-nine feet. 2 feet more than the great Man of War and 6 to 8 feet more than the average thoroughbred.  Native Dancer won 9 races as a 2yr colt, but he developed bucked shins, an inflammation common in horses when subjecting underdeveloped bones and joints to sress.       Curlin had the same ailment and did not race until he was a 3yr old.  

 Look at Native Dancer's record, he won 4 races in 26 days as a two yr old.  No juvenile had ever won four stakes race in such a short time at Saratoga. Yes, they did race horses often in those days but Native Dancer was a very fast horse and fast horses usually show wear and tear in their ankles.  

There were rumors that his right ankle was large and swollen. Bob Horwood of the Morning Telegraph wrote that his ankle looked suspicious but that the colt never took a lame step. It was following his 2yr old campaign that during the winter in Santa Anita, they fired his ankle for osselets, a bony growth at the joint.  

 In the fall of his 3rd year he returned from a workout favoring his left front foot. The veterinarian William Wright found four bruises, which he pared.   Again following a gallop, Dr Wright found two new bruises and the colt was rested for the remaining year.  

  Native Dancer raced three times at age 4 but on August 22nd, he worked a mile and three-eights and minutes later he went lame in the right front foot. Shortly, Mr Vanderbilt issued this statement: "After working out, Native Dancer showed a recurrence of his former injury, and he will be retired to stud".  

So Mary, Native Dancer won from 5f to 1 1/2m  and the only race he ever lost was the derby. He didn't just lose the derby, read the recorded accounts, it was a story unto its self. His blood still dominates the sport because of who he was and what he accomplished.  

Breeders go to the best for a reason, not to inbreed a weakened offspring but to try and duplicate some of the traits of that sire. It's too easy to say the industry is to blame for inbreeding, when there are other factors such as training practices, nutrition, climate, racing surfaces, etc.  No Ruffian did not go down because of Native Dancer's influence and neither did Eight Belles anymore than Barbaro did.  

I suggest you obtain a copy of thoroughbred legends "Native Dancer", by Eva Jolene Boyd from the bloodhorse book store and read for yourself the story of one of the greatest ever and to quote Joe Hirsch "he was almost perfect".   He was the first of his kind to grace the cover of Life magazine. I have that issue framed on my den wall.

Dona, I think you met Amanda.

However in regards to Native Dancer, I've never understood how any horse that won 21 of 22 starts and the only loss he had he placed could ever be regarded as a horse that had weak ankles. He went lame, but I mean did his hoofs fall off or something? Did he break a leg?I don't think so. How many horses G1, 2 or 3 stakes winners are raced that long and hard today? Perhaps one of the experts can shed some light on why Native Dancer supposedly had this ankle issue because don't most horses have some sort of wear and tear on their bodies after racing for a year or two? And after all, Native Dancer did have 22 races under his belt.

First, I must admit that I honestly think that GregJ is incorrectly telling us the winning trifecta. . When we all should know that it will be Old Fashioned, Silver City and Stardom Bound (not particularly in that order)

It is so great to hear that Nic is training again.  I feel he will be great horse for racing. No, he will not win the Derby, but I would much rather see him race into his 4 and 5 year old seasons.

Just crossing my fingers that his next race will be March 7th or the following Sunday.

Dona

Your post is very interesting.  I have heard a lot of times that N Dancer was the reason for so many of his offspring breaking down.  I don't know if this is true.  The thing that I am having a hard time understanding is the KD last year.  Why were all of those horses in the KD within the bloodline of ND?  Is that a fluke or was that something that is normal.

I remember the big drawn out article that I read somewhere and saw something on the news about that.  I am kind of confused about this.  

Amanda.  Do you have an imput here?  This is a interesting subject and I would like some real facts here.  Not that I am saying anyone is wrong.  I just don't know.  It seems very strange to me that 19 horses would have the bloodline of the same horse in one race.  I don't know about Eight Belles.  Isn't she the only one that didn't have that bloodline?  I may be way off here.  

Trifecta - Pioneerof the Nile, Old Fashioned and Stardom Bound, but hey, I'm no expert.

RhondaH

I believe that Stardom Bound will get in there but I don't think OF will.  OF is a good horse.  Still way too early to tell.  There are so many good horses right now.  I am looking at CC and SB.  There are a few others but I am not that much into many other horses other than the Barbaro bunch right now so I am the wrong person to really know anything here.  LOL

mary

I saw the bolt and the speed in Nicanor in his first race.  That was obvious.  Edgar just knew that he had hurt himself and wasn't going down that road again.  Right on Prado.  We love  ya.  I do believe that Nicanor is going to be a good race horse.  Look at mom and dad.  Nuff said.  

There was a horse to rival Native Dancer and ran in races a year ahead of him- Tom Fool.

He ran 30 races over his career, some with high weights, and from everything I've gathered, retired sound.  He won the New York Handicap Triple, somewhat making up for missing the Triple Crown when he was sick and beat out Native Dancer for HOY.

His drawback seemed to be distance but he ran longer than a lot of TB's today.

Some TB's may retire with some wear and tear but Native Dancer's career was pretty short for the time and it would have been less of an issue if he had earned that much wear and tear over the course of more years and races. Whether you believe it or not, he's in the pedigrees of a lot of horses today who don't hold up under a lot less running.

Horses like ND are bred to because they can get successful runners and the earlier, the better.  Sound, distance horses usually mature later so the return on investment comes further down the road.  In addition, I can't think of too many farm managers who are going to flat out say their star stallion had leg issues and may pass them on. Note that the manager talks about his shoulders and hindquarters, not his legs.

We all have our favorites.  But I don't see any use in putting them on a pedestal.  Even Barbaro.  We simply did not get a chance to see if he would have prevailed.  What we did see took our breath away.

What happened to the days when they used to race a horse to prep them for racing?  Now they just exersise them.  Back in the day, they actually raced them.  So much has changed.  

Cool, Thanks for the link Amanda Hope Spenditallbaby makes it, Also, Dona is Correct, Native Dancer was incredible in ALL regards ! Here is a link to the cover on TIME magazine, Well Stated Dona !, upload.wikimedia.org/.../TimeCover-May31-1954.jpg

Yep stardust, you're wrong!  Eight Belles was a daughter of Unbridal's Song, also the sire of Midshipman, Old fashioned and the great filly Octave. As tragic as it was, and believe me I screamed in agony when she went down, Eight Belles was just something that happened. Blaming her blood line is way out of line.    Kathy, I can only tell you what I've read about the rumors of Native Dancer. I think it's like Nicanor and this blog. Many people think Nicanor showed nothing, his trainer and jockey said differently. We saw his excelleration, many have commented that was  Nicanor out of control. You can't change some ones mind when they only look and  don't see, that's two different things things and yet it makes a world of difference.  

Another Fact Everyone, Native Dancer's Bloodline is part of Nicanor !, How you ask ?, Native Dancer's Grandson, Mr. Prospector , IS Nicanor's Great Grandfather(?), I think that is right, So Native Dancer's Bloodline is pretty much EVERYWHERE.

Three grandparents of Eight Belles descended from Native Dancer.  This kind of inbreeding to me is just unconscionable.  Native Dancer had extremely muscled calves, which put great strain on his ankles and feet.  This is a fact.  The inbreeding has enhanced this flaw.  Native Dancer was a great horse, perhaps the best of them all.  In Native Dancer's day horses ran many more races than he did.  He was retired at age 4 because of foot problems.  IMO Princequillo and Nasrullah are the best bloodlines.  There are many many articles out there on the subject.  I would want a horse with Native Dancer in his pedigree, but not to the extreme, like Eight Belles, Big Brown, and many others.  Like I said, if Native Dancer had won the Kentucky Derby he would be sitting in Man O War's place, No. 1.

Stardust,

There was some serious inbreeding going on with Eight Belles.  Native Dancer all over her pedigree.

I know this is off topic, but if Amanda will indulge me.  Ellen Parker, noted blood-horse pedigree analyst had this to say about Eight Belles:  Specifically, in the pedigree of this speedy gray filly, Parker had seen the same kind of dangerous crosses -- in her case, lines of known unsoundness triply crossed behind an unsound sire line -- that she believed had contributed to the racetrack breakdowns and deaths of such prominent horses as Ruffian and Go For Wand, of George Washington and Pine Island, and even of Barbaro.  Indeed, when Ellen Parker first perused the

bloodlines of Eight Belles, she saw a danger clear and present: a family tree that bore three branches of the extremely brilliant but unsound racehorse Raise a Native (son of Native Dancer), who was a very muscular chestnut, heavy on the front end, who had won all four of his starts before he broke down in front and limped off to stud.............And

herein, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, lies the rub. The thoroughbred breed is now so suffused with the precocious blood of Native Dancer, so filled with his great-grandsons and great-granddaughters, so shot through with distant offspring who carry the markers of his tribe -- extraordinary speed with limited durability and soundness -- that today it threatens the viability of the entire breed.

This excerpt is from-- Eight Belles' breakdown: a predictable tragedy written by William Nack.

Mary

Thanks I didn't know that.  I thought the other 19 in the Derby were but I didn't think that EB had ND in her pedigree.  

Donna

I don't know where I was wrong.  I was asking a queston.  

Outside of the "leg issues" (which are enormous in a race horse), doesn't the constant in-breeding of these horses produce other recessive factors? Dogs for example can cause malformaties, incontinance, etc.

Does another(horse) breeding line have a more dominant gene that can overcome these recessive "leg issues"?

Why would breeders take the chance of this much in-breeding whesre thing might come back full-circle?

Dona

OK wasn't the first time I was wrong and it won't be the last LOL.  I really don't know much about this other than the things I am hearing on the side with people that are making noise about it.  I don't really pay that much attention to a pedigree unless it has Slew or Dynaformer or well a few here and there.  When EB went down, I quit watching racing for quite a while.  I am still pretty leary of it.  I was a out of control mad woman when that happened and I never want to see that happen again.  Scares me to death that Larry may run SB in the Derby.  I really feel it would lift his spirits if she won it though.  I just pray that they ALL stay safe.  

I think I saw a comment from Dr. Bramlage or another veterinarian who participated in an online Q&A for the Bloodhorse, that equine geneticists are currently undertaking genome mapping for horses. That type of research is helpful in locating specific genes responsible for specific traits and how they are expressed in the breeding process. The more they learn, the more they will be able to understand and correct fragility issues, pulmonary bleeding, etc. Today's technology is exciting and should render new answers.

As Native Dancer and Raise a Native are part of Nicanor's bloodline, this conversation seems germane.

Was the flawed gene a mutation in Native Dancer or was he a carrier of the gene from a previous generation?

That is if indeed Native Dancer has a problem. Has anyone done any tests?

And is this flaw due to Native Dancer's muscular body or is because of his bone structure or both?

I finally found a couple of pictures of Roberto, Dynaformer's sire on Darby Dan's site. Judging by the way Roberto used his back legs as he was standing in the field, he didn't appear to have leg issues.

Perhaps the Roberto and Mr. Prospector line is so popular among all because the Roberto line may in fact prevent less breakdown on the Mr. Prospector line due to Native Dancer or whoever in his line caused his issues, if he indeed did have issues.

So to tie this all in, if in fact, Native Dancer's progeny et.al., especially if they are inbred, have issues with breakdown, what are Nicanor and his siblings chances of breakdown given there only one line of Native Dancer on their dam's side.

I believe Barbaro's breakdown was an accident. Some may disagree, but too bad, my mind is set.

And if more than one Native Dancer line is a breakdown issue, is Nearco inbreeding an issue? It appears that Nicanor and his brother's have one Nearco line on Dynaformer's side and three on La Ville Rouge's side.

Monday morning quarterback rhetoric aside, shouldn't someone have checked Native Dancer's DNA out a decade or so back?

ooh and ahs....

I love you Nicanor. You are beautiful.

Trainer for Stardom Bound is Bobby Frankel. Larry Jones will get derby win with Friesian fire : )

Also, about this inbreeding talk, you can find Native Dancer bloodlines in all of BARBARO'S Family.

Actually, I read just now (on a Texas A&M site) that the genome map is complete and has been distributed to researchers world wide. Important work that was previously not possible is being undertaken. (If anyone is interested in seeing the projects, you can Google "equine genome".)

Yes, Nicanor has a little Native Dancer, and that is okay because there is no ND inbreeding.  Nicanor has a lot of Nasrullah who sired Bold Ruler.  Bold Ruler is the sire of Secretariat and is the great grandssire of Seattle Slew, fast, sound horses. Nicanor also has some Princequillo in him.  Princequillo is the sire of Something Royal who is the dam of Secretariat.

75% of horses have some Native Dancer in them, but in some horses it is extreme.  What a horse needs is a cross between the Nasrullah line for soundness, Princequillo because many of his daughters inherited his big heart, and Native Dancer because he had the speed.  

What happened to Barbaro was just a freak accident.  It's not in his pedigree.

By the way, that life Life magazine article was printed in 1954.  We know a lot more about pedigree today.

Look at Big Brown's pedigree, horrible.

Compare Nicanor's pedigree with Eight Belles, Big Brown, even Stardom Bound.  Having some Native Dancer in a pedigree is necessary, very important.  But this inbreeding to produce fast horses that are not sound is like I said unconscionable.  

Nicanor has a wonderful pedigree.  He has a lot of Nasrullah.  If you cross the Native Dancer, Nasrullah, and Princequillo lines, you have a better chance of producing a strong horse.  Eight Belles as well as Big Brown and others were doomed from the beginning.  TOO MUCH INBREEDING.

One anaycronm when it comes to inbreeding/linebreeding:

HYPP

Hyperkalemic Peroidic Paralyasis....

go here:

www.bringinglighttohypp.org/Impressive.html

Everyone in the QH world thought Impressive was the big thing... he is in bred and in turn many of his off spring were bred to each other. The main reason for this was to produce massive sized horses for halter classes at qh/paint/app shows and the world. One problem, HYPP started with Impressive and many felt it benefitted the line because horses with HYPP tend to be more muscular and bulky. The con you ask? HYPP is a gentic disease that causes positive carries who are symptomatic to have HYPP attacks, which are very similar to seizures. These attacks can be quite dangerous and horses can and have died from them. They probably still do. A horse who has HYPP can have it controlled through medication and diet, but that doesn't always work. The AQHA now requires that all get that go back to Impressive be tested and the results be stamped on their papers - OR - If the sire and dam have tested negative for the gene, then the resulting foals are not required to be tested. Trust me, it's a bad thing...

I could go on, the QH people love to line and in breed their horses. I get crazy looks from stallion owners because I refuse to breed my mare (great great granddaughter of Three Bars (tb)) to any horse with Three Bars or get of three bars on their papers..

I will get off my soap box... but I am very anti inbreeding/linebreeding. I have never owned a horse who was but have known enough horses who were who have had to pay the price...

This will be fascinating to follow!  There is a lot of Mr. Prospector throughout a lot of the current horses' bloodlines, I've noticed, along with Native Dancer (my first  favorite horse hero).

Kind of the same with people if you track that,we are all possibly related to,it just happens and it can cause issues.Life is to short to stew on it though,I prefer to enjoy the gifted horses myself.

Just a fact, Greg J and others, horses do not have "muscled calves".  Their hooves are the equivalent of our fingers and toes, in fact, if we walked on our middle finger and one toe we'd be supporting ourselves similarly to how horses support themselves. This is a big reason for their fragility.  Their forearms (between elbows and "knees") are like our humerus.  Their hind legs "stifle" is like our knees.  

Greg J  Thanks.  I still love the horse. I thought that it was Larry.  I still think that SB is going to win the derby OR CC.  

Greg J  I didn't know about the bloodline of Barbaro's famlity either.  WOW.  That doesn't really bother me though.  I wonder what the deal is with all of that.  :)

I read all the above comments with interest. I love all animals but especially horses. I used to follow horseracing because of the beauty of these animals. I don't bet.  Then, Ruffian goes down and I stop watching racing. I'm still not over her death. Then, comes Barbaro. There was something about this gorgeous creature that I couldn't ignore. So I go crazy screaming in happiness for his KD win; and then I go crazy screaming in horror over his injury, and eventual passing. Then I look at Big Brown, Curlin and others and I'm overwhelmed by beauty again. When Eight Belles went down, my husband tells me I screamed for 10 minutes and cried for 4 hours straight. I don't remember. But I keep watching them and pray for all my favorites, especially Nicanor, Stardom, Kip Deville, Georgie Boy - they're all beautiful and talented and I love just looking at them. I don't know how much longer I'll be able to watch if I were to lose one of my favorites. But with all the bad news in the world, it's hard to give up such beauty and grace. So yes I know thoroughbreds are a heartache waiting to happen, (probably because of the inbreeding discussed above), but I'll keep watching until my heart can't take it anymore.

At the risk of repeating information already posted, just read on ABR that Country Star has been retired by Darley and the Sheikh.  She'll become a broodmare.  Hope she is kinder to the stallions than she has been to loading gates and herself.  Poor Girl.

Kathy, Roberto has Nasrullah in his pedigree, strong and sound.  You are right, Roberto and Mr. Prospector is a great combination.

Mary

Why is everyone blaming the breakdowns on the pedigree?  I myself feel that racing a horse at 2 is worse cause they aren't developed yet.   A lot of the time, that horse isn't even 2.  What if the horse was born in January.  The next January that horse is really only one year old.  NOT 2.  That is more of a probelem in my belief.  Then when they say they are three, a lot of the time they are more closer to 2.  I don't quite get this inbreeding thing.  Of course all of us are that way too if you go for the Adam and Eve Concept. I guess there is room for debate on this.  

Thanks everyone for the information.

It is an interesting concept to think of arms and knees inre to a horse.

Nicanor you're a doll, do whatever you want "run" or "sit down" in the gate I dont care. Just be safe and sound.  Race or no race is fine with me.  Such a handsome boy you are, most important is have a good, happy and safe life.

Ragsy

Sit down at the gate LOL!  That was good.  I so agree with everything you say.  I don't care about the races.  I care about his life and him being a happy and famous horse that is already loved by millions.  He is one amazing horse.  Gotta love him.  All of us in the Barbaro group so 'get it'.  We just want the rules to be honest and the horses to be horses.  The finish line?  So what?  I guess if you are that much in love with money then it is important.  Yeah it takes money to live but I get a lot more joy out of the love in life.  Nicanor is just that.  

Just to clear up facts regarding "inbreeding". The correct word would be linebreeding where by you double up on positive traits you would like to see in the offspring. Sometimes this works, sometimes you end up with the negative traits. Inbreeding is where you breed lines close up as in father to daughter or half siblings etc.

I have been around horses since I was 5. Muscled calves? Can someone please enlighten me to where on the anatomy this lies? You can have a muscled forearm or gaskin (rear legs, above the hocks), but now "calves." It's a moot point anyway, because neither would have anything to do with ankles. The bottom line is when you have a young 2 y/o pounding down the track, things will go wrong. Depending on how careful the trainer is (Matz comes from show jumping where–because of soundness–you START a jumper at 4 and no earlier) will ultimately be the deciding factor in soundness at 3 and 4. Rick Porter (business man) is in it for the money, his horses are racing at 2. The Jacksons (horse people) sit back and take the advice of their trainer going for longevity on the track rather than the quick buck. Europeans used to race more at 3 and 4 than the US who races at 2 and 3. Now they are leaning towards the US model and they are having the same issues with breakdowns that we're having. A 2 y/o just isn't physically mature enough for the rigors of racing, and if you ever worked around horses, you would see an enormous difference between a 2 y/o and a 3 y/o.

I'm not saying breeding doesn't play a factor, but you really can't put the blame on one single horse from the 60's.

Onto other things...does anyone know when Matz will return with his string to Fair Hill?

Ida Lee, I am right with you!  I still mourn Ruffian, Secretariat, et al.  Don't even get me started on Barbaro.  Anymore, after Eight Belles, I won't be able to bear it.

when Michael says, "he looks like he learned an awful lot from that race," what do you think he meant??

Stardust, if a foal is born in January in the northern hemisphere, then the next January, that foal is a yearling.  The following January is when the yearling turns into a two-year-old.  At that point, the colt or filly is very close to being chronologically two.

None of the three-year-olds (horses foaled in 2006) currently racing are closer to two than to really three.  It is true that many of them, at this point, are still technically two, and won't have their third birthdays until later this month, or in March or April, or even May, but they are much closer to the third anniversary of their births than to the second one.

Also, studies have shown that horses who race at two are statistically less likely to break down than horses who are not raced at two.  

Ida Lee

I am with you too on this.  Don't get me started either.  I get really upset when I think about all of those beautiful horses that died way way too young.  :(

ALL owners of thoroughbreds are business men or women.  Stop using that as a dirty word.  It does not mean that they don't love their horses.  Rick Porter cares about the horses he owns and is in it for more than the money.  There are better ways to make money.  Stop the slander of Mr. Porter.  Not nice.

What Michael meant was that Nicanor is an extremely intelligent horse.  He is not built like Barbaro.  His legs are shorter and his body is not as long.  He is a strong, sound horse, and he is fast  Don't worry, he'll win his next race.

Wanda;

Thanks for clearing that whole inbreeding/linebreeding thing up!:)

Marigold;

I would imagine that he acts differently when he got to the track, more alert, more aware of the other horses around him while galloping on the track? It would show up more when he actually makes his next race and knowing now that he wants to be in front of everyone.

Marigold.  I believe that horses are a lot like us.  When they make a mistake, they learn from it.  I feel that Nicanor learned about the real deal with racing.  He had never been in a race.  He never was in the starting gate with 12 other horses.  I feel like he learned that the real race is not practice.  The real race is something that he is suppose to do a little bit different.  I think.  Make any sense?  :)  I could be off but those are my thoughts.  Nicanor had to have known that he had a lot of people there for HIM.  Horses are very good at picking things like that up.  He could have very well been nervous because of that.  Too bad we can't ask him.  

I had always heard that the "weak ankles" were a gift of Polynesian and that they showed up in the subsequent generations regardless of who the sire was.  It was not limited to just through Native Dancer.  However, in doing research before writing, there was no mention of him having problems other than bucked shins (many youngsters do) and tieing up he appeared to be sound too.  

Oh, I almost forgot.  Personally, I think that some of the breakdown issues are a result of upbringing, NOT pedigree.  Youngsters were not fed steroids, they were not kept in the barn as yearlings to pretty them up for sales rings, and were allowed to "mature" naturally.  They stayed out to pasture all day and ran with their peers.  They were fed a healthy growth diet to allow them to develop, but they were kept on the light side from all of their playing.  They naturally developed their competitive edge in pastures.  Even while they were being broke they still got most of their exercise from unrestrained running.  This helped them build strength for racing naturally.  Now they are kept in except for their daily foray to the track, fed up and muscled up (through steroids to some degree) and the stress is just too great for the underdeveloped legs.  Just my opinion, sorry for the soap box stand!

Barbaro.  Another hurdle crossed.  

hslf.typepad.com/.../creatures-caucus.html

FOB's and Nicanor, we love you.  

Better stick this one up.  Most FOB's probably have this.  Takes one second.  :)

community.hsus.org/.../HSLF_2009_conyersburton_horses

We are Barbaro's voice and the wonderful brothers are making things bigger, better and stronger.  :)

Marigold - it most likely meant he got a world of experience. He learned about getting bumped, running in traffic, getting rank too early...lots of things. This is the first time he's run in front of a crowd or experienced a busy backstretch on race day. All of this can be very unsettling to a young Thoroughbred. He learned tons, and I wouldn't expect to see him bloom for another race or two. Barbaro's brother aside, he did show promise and I am excited to see where he goes with it.

Someone mentioned Ellen Parker so I looked up the  article concerning her opinions on the breakdown of Eight Belles. I suggest everyone read it just to see how inflamatory the idiotic statments are in that article.  I find it so dishonest for some one in the business to rail the breeders for "inbreeding" (her words not mine), to Native Dancer and do the exact same thing in her article on Princequillo but call it inbreeding for sex balance, strength and soundness, extolling the virtues of such inbreeding practices and then turn around and say the opposite because it was in the news and hysteria reigned following the tragic death of Eight Belles.  Her death was an accident, as horrible as it was, it was still an accident. According to Parker, Eight Belles was an accident waiting to happen just like Ruffian,and that Ruffian had a predisposition to breaking down because of her sire, the soft boned Reviewer and her dam Shenanigans, the daughter of Native Dancer.  Hogwash!  Reviewer was a son of Bold Bidder, grandson of Nasrullah. Bold Bidder's dam, miss Disco  came through Discovery tracing back to Fair Play, Sire of Man O War for staminia. According to Parker "Reviewer broke his leg and had to be euthanized " and Shenanigans,when she broke 2 legs after waking up from an intestinal surgery.   Duh - she fell during her recovery from anesthesia following successful abdominal surgery. That makes her a canidate for weak legs Ellen?  Reviewer fractured a cannon bone as a juvenile,  and suffered another cannon bone fracture the next year.  He then suffered a fractured left hock in a paddock accident. He endured a successful four - hour long operation. A week later, he was put under to replace the massive cast on his hind leg. After removing the cast and following x-rays that indicated the leg was stable, they tried to get him back up. Unsuccessful, they decided it was too much for him and he was euthanized June 21,1977. Accidents !   Since when is an accident a sign of weak legs?  Shenanigans was bred for speed and was a very good but developed calcuim in a knee and was retired. That's inbreeding weakness?    Nasrullah, Native Dancer, Princequillo, they all share common genes going way back as does most horses. Citing Native Dancer as the weak link is just plain wrong. By the way, the Iron horse Man o War has the same start record as Native Dancer as does Secretariat, and Count Fleet.  Dr Fager had one more start but won less.  Of the horses rated higher than him, only Citation and Kelso, a gelding, had more starts.  as for Tom Fool, he was sick and missed the tripple crown series, nowdays no matter what a 3yr old does, he had better compete in the  Derby series to be horse of the year. Oh yeah, if he retired so sound, how come they put off his 1st year breding season due to some mysterious ailment?  Study Native Dancer's pedigree real hard and you will see the reason for his speed, stamina and soundness. Discovery is considered one of the 4 greatest weight bearing racers of the 21 century and rightfully so.  I suppose to the Dancer's critics, he mutated into a weak gene carrier but if the record is correct, it had to be after his racing days were over.    

This has nothing to do with Nic, but WOW, look at this video of the great Big Red when he was 12 years old !, Amazing, He is like a big kid !, They just love to run !, That's all, Thought everyone would enjoy !

www.youtube.com/watch

Re:  2-year old racehorses

I have to respond to the constant criticism of trainers and owners who race 2-year olds.

The reality is that properly handled and trained 2-year olds that race will make more money than a horse that never starts at 2.  I believe Dr. Wayne Mcllwraith from Colorado State University's Orthopaedic Research Center proved that in a recent study.

One of the reasons is that bones, joints, ligaments and tendons need to develop to withstand the stress of racing.  They can only do that when they are subjected to those race-specific stresses when they are young.

I would never want to start race training a horse older than three.  Racing is harder on a horse's legs and joints than anything the horse will every do in its life.  An older horse without the foundation as a young horse could not stand up to the stresses of racing and would break down.

It is not kind nor good horsemanship to NOT train the babies.  If you truly love racing then you should embrace two-year old racing.  If you look back at the race records of those supposedly sound horses of yesteryear, you will find that many had 8, 10 or 12, or more starts as 2-year olds.  Seabiscuit ran his first race as a 2-year old January 19 and then raced again three (!!!) days later.  He ran 36 races as a 2-year old.  Can you believe he ran 36 races as a baby!

Another point:  Horseracing IS about winning and making money.  These horses were bred to race.  They want to race, and they love to win.  That is their reason for existence.

It is nice that everyone here can love horseracing and its stars and not care that the horse wins or loses, but none of you pay the day rates on those losing horses!  Would there be this blog for Barbaro if Barbaro was a $5,000 claimer?  I don't think so.  I most certainly care if my horses win or lose since I do pay their day rate.  No matter how much the Jacksons love their horses, believe me, they do care that Nicanor ran such a poor race regardless of the spin a variety of people have put on it.  After all, they already have about $200,000 into Nicanor and he has only returned a couple of hundred dollars.

One more rant--just because an owner cares about the bottom line of his racehorse BUSINESS does not mean s/he does not care passionately about their horses.

Sorry for my rants, but there is so much misinformation being passed off as fact and criticisms being leveled without knowledge that I felt I had to respond.

when Michael says, "he looks like he learned an awful lot from that race," what do you think he meant??

Marigold,

It could mean a lot of things.

He might be more focused and competitive in training.  By competitive, I mean he might want to be in front of other horses when he is just galloping fairly slowly around the track.  In other words, he might be giving Matz the impression that he does understand his job which is to be a racehorse.

I am so proud of you. You will be fine I have a good feeling plus you have a guardian angel watching you. God bless you always!

Let's not forget that Secretariat himself had two full siblings, both sisters. One, Syrian Sea, was actually a stakes-winner, though she didn't manage to accomplish nearly as much as her brother. The other sister, The Bride, was nowhere near as distinguished. Secretariat's owner, Penny Chenery, stated that The Bride "couldn't beat a fat man running downhill". Just goes to show that breeding's always something of a crapshoot, and even a full sibling's success isn't a reliable indicator of potential in a racehorse.

I very rarely comment on these blogs but I have to get this out or I will sit and steam.  First, I was very sad that Nicanor's first race was not that good but it sounds like he did get alot out of his race.  I'm glad that he is feeling better and back at the track.  But the reason that I'm upset is everything that is being said about one of my favorite racehorses, Native Dancer.  I'm lucky enough to have an Appendix Quarter Horse thatt is a great grandson of Native Dancer.  Buddy has some of the strongest ankles I've ever seen on a horse.  He has more bone than my full-bred Quarter Horse and my other Appendix.  Also, Buddy shows the All-Around events and has never taken a lame step.  So from my experience I have no problems with the Native Dancer blood.  Thank you Amanda for letting me share my opinion.  Nicanor, I can't wait to see you run again.  I know you'll be better next time.

I think Matz saying Nicanor learned an awful lot from the race means that Nicanor had a lot to learn.  He needs to get coordinated at the gate, allow his rider to rate him, while at the same time he was in traffic so there was a lesson and Prado was able to take him to the outside, eventually.

I've seen a lot about Nicanor's run to catch up with the pack but that's not comparing apples and apples- he was more or less kind of sprinting and unless everyone else was doing the same at the same time, you have no real gauge how fast Nicanor was compared to the other horses.  Also, that's not what Prado would have wanted.  You don't win a race at a mile by sprinting early to catch up.  Nicanor ran out of steam as had to happen.  Prado could not rate him or do much with him until about half the race was over.  Watch Nicanor run the first half with his head up and his neck kind of inverted- he's not listening to Prado and he's not in a rhythmic stride, he's got to be pretty tense and that uses up energy too.

There was nothing yet, IMHO, to indicate just what Nicanor has or doesn't.  What he did show was a very green horse and that is, I think, the reason for Matz's statement.  I hope Nicanor did learn but like any kid, it may take a few tries before he remembers it in the race! Just stay safe Nicanor.

Yay, Nicky! I am so proud of you, whether or not you ever win... and I am sure your brother is proud, too. Even though you didn't win, you showed us that you had AMAZING speed when you were catching up to the rest of the field. I hope you do win eventually, but if you don't, I will continue to watch you and pray for you!

thoroughbredluvr

I am glad you posted your post.  I have always wondered about that.  In my opinion, I still think and feel that the age of the horse is a lot more of the reason.  I know that people don't agree with me and that is fine.  I just don't feel like a 2 year old should be racing unless the horse is REALLY 2 years old in time.  I feel that it is just too soon to be racing a horse.  Horses live to be 30ish.  They don't even start jumping the horses until they are 3 and 4.  That is probably because of the soundness.  Those bones need to develop and the comment on here by

Springsmom83 is very true.  Let the horses develop on their own.  I feel that her post covered some important things.  So all in all, the handling of the horse is very important but I am strong on waiting until their grown up on the inside.  You wouldn't want to put your child in a marathon race at 2 years old would you?  I feel that it is kind of the same thing.  

Dona, Bold Bidder's dam was High Bid, not Miss Disco.  Miss Disco was his granddam on the top of his pedigree.  High Bid is out of the Princequillo line, big heart, soundness.  Reviewer was a son of Bold Ruler, not Bold Bidder.  His dam was Broadway.  There is nothing wrong with a horse having the Native Dancer line in him, but for a horse to have this line all over his pedigree, top and bottom is just wrong, like I said unconscionable.  Native Dancer was one of the greatest horses of the 20th Century.  No one is denying that.  He received a recessive gene that he passed on. Nasrullah, Native Dancer, and Princequillo may share a common line going way way back, but excessive inbreeding has taken place with the Native Dancer line.  Soundness is more important than speed.  The problem is that over the past 30 years there has been over-use of inbreeding to produce carbon copy images of what is considered to be ideal. Obviously, most breeders go for speed, with no thought of strength and soundness.  

I should have phrased my question differently.  How might Nicanor have demonstrated that he learned an awul lot from that race?  Michael's statement indicated that Nicanor showed him that he learned a lot.

GregJ, I'm no expert, but in my estimation Secretariat was the greatest EVER.  And the most gorgeous.  He will always be my favorite. Barbaro, Ruffian, and ohers folow closely.

Greg J;

Thanks for the youtube on Secretariat! He was my fav, never got down to see him because I thought he would be there for years. :(  He was beautiful wasn't he? !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Marigold  

Seattle Slew is my favorite.  

Secretariat and,Ruffian and Barbaro are close too.  I love Winning Colors. Heck all of them are good horses but those are my favs.  

I'm glad all this mistaken information about Native Dancer is coming to light because it does pertain to Barbaro's pedigree.  So many people want to blame everything but the kitchen sink when a horse goes down but truthfully if there was one factor we could point a finger to and say ah ha, then it might make it easier to bear when a horse goes down. I don't know. It hurts whether it's a claimer or a noted champion , either way it is a tragedy for us all, most of all the connections of the horse that went down. When we say connections, remember that includes everyone even the barn staff that works on a day to day basis.  One of the most poignant letter to the Editor that I've ever read came from an owner of a filly that broke down after crossing the finish line in a turf race at Santa Anita. I can't remember what issue of the Bloodhorse it was but the letter was about the exhilaration at the moment of winning and then the unbearable pain of holding his familys' beloved filly in his arms, looking into her eyes , seeing the  confusion and pain and trying to calm and reassure her as they put her down. The letter is a must reading if only to set the record straight, that yes, it is a business but there are many, many people that love the horses and that are just as affected, if not more so, than we are.  The filly took a bad step, that's all. It was an accident.  

Someone mentioned Polynesian as a source of the so called weak legs of Native Dancer but the record is clear, that's not possible.  Polynesian retired with a record of twenty-seven wins in fifty-eight starts, including twenty placings. He broke or equaled six track records, plus one world record. One daughter produced Boldnesian, a grandsire of Seattle Slew, his son Native Dancer sired Natalma , dam of Northern Dancer,  and another son Imbros, produced the magnificent Native Diver. He never "tied up", turns out he was suffering from toxic blood poisoning that caused him to be stiff and hate training due to his soreness. Thus, he never had enough conditioning in his "bottom" to go beyond nine furlongs. Makes you wonder what he could have accomplished if it wasn't for his INJURY!  

La Ville Rouge is a beautiful mare and she would not be who she is, in every sense of the word, if not for Carson City. And neither would Nicanor, or any one of her offspring thanks to all the great sires and dams in her pedigree.  As for me, it will always be, "thank you very much, Native Dancer".  

Marigold, what Michael meant about Nicanor, is that he is an extremely intelligent horse. It took him a bit longer, but mentally Nicanor finally grew up.  That is what Michael was saying.  I promise you he will win his next race. You can count or bet on it.  I looked at his pedigree.    

Dona, I don't know why you're getting so defensive about Native Dancer.  If Bill Nack thinks this is a valid theory, then that's good enough for me.  This is all a learning experience, but what I find myself doing now is looking specifically for this in pedigrees.  You would be surprised, it might answer a lot of questions as to why certain horses broke down, and why others (like Lava Man) have long healthy careers.  I will NOT name specific horses, because that may be considered slanderous by some, but you can do the experiment for yourself.  When Native Diver, or even worse his son Raise a Native, appear in a pedigree 3 or 4 times (call it inbreeding, line-breeding, heck call it a banana if you want) I don't believe that is conducive to soundness... period.  It is conducive to speed, and that's why it's done... duh.  There is such a thing as "Too much of a good thing".  When you enhance positive attributes through breeding, you also enhance negative attributes... why is this hard to believe?  Sorry it upsets you so much.

Thanks Mary, I stand corrected, It was Bold Ruler, who also sired Secretariat, not Bold Bidder.  All the better to make my point about the sire Reviewer's lineage. So convenient to pick and choose where the speed and soundness arrives in a pedigree and not look at the whole picture.  You  cite Eight Belles, yet ther's nothing to indicate that she wasn't sound when she broke down. Broke down, not keeled over with weak legs, not fell over over because she had weak ankles. Larry jones said she was fit, the post mortem examination found no evidence of defect or drugs. I choose to believe the experts that handled her and the Vets that did the examination, not someones' belief that she was too "inbred".   what about Bayakoa, too inbred for you?  All that Nasrullah, borderline insanity, sound as a dollar, was her lone weakness Miss Disco?  Stop saying Eight Belles was doomed, that's sickening and simply not true.

Thanks, JAJ, for your evenhanded treatment of the benefit of racing horses at 2. Among others, you reiterated what Michael Matz has said about training and racing 2-year-olds.

And thank you, SL, for your ardent defense of Rick Porter. ALL horsemen at Porter's level are businessmen. The Jacksons are businesspeople as well, and ElonGrad97, it is very hard to defend a position that the Jacksons are somehow "better" than Mr. Porter because he races 2-year-olds, when BARBARO HIMSELF raced at 2. Matz trains horses who race at 2, and the Jacksons own horses who race at 2. So don't be dissing owners like Rick Porter because they are doing what they feel is best for their horses AND their business. Porter has two likely Kentucky Derby entries this year. Last year, he had a filly who almost ran down Big Brown, something 18 other colts couldn't come close to doing. He did not get there by being callous and careless with his horses.

There is a soft spot in my heart, as in all of yours', for Edgar Prado, Michael Matz, and Roy and Gretchen Jackson. But honestly, people, it is NOT "Team Barbaro vs. EVERYONE ELSE." It's not "Prado is the best jockey, all others are callous horse-whippers who only care about winning;" "Michael Matz is the best trainer, all others are druggers, abusers and/or cheats;" or "The Jacksons are horse-lovers, all other owners are greedy businesspeople and don't care about their horses." Sometimes that's how it feels here.

I think that if Kent Desormeaux or Mike Smith had been on Barbaro in the Preakness, they would have acted just as Edgar did. Any good jockey (and you don't get TC mounts by being a bad one) would have realized something was wrong, pulled Barbaro up, and acted in the interest of the horse, just as Prado did. If you want proof, look at last year's Belmont. Kent had 30 years' worth of pressure on himself and Big Brown to perform well in the Belmont, but when he felt he had "no more horse" under him, he pulled Big Brown up, despite a strong desire to win the Triple Crown. He didn't know if something was wrong, just that in the biggest race of both their lives, something didn't feel right with his horse, and rather than force Big Brown to race to the wire, he eased him. He's been ridiculed and criticized for 8 months for that action, but he did what he felt was right for his horse. That is a great jockey.

Stardust, a couple of comments -

First, as someone else pointed out, a foal born in January 5 calendar months OLDER than a horse born in May of the same year. It is the horse born in July or August who is at a disadvantage when they turn 2 on Jan. 1.

Second, no, I would not put my child in a marathon race at age 2. But a horse matures faster than a human, so you have to consider the equivalent in "horse-years." I found this guide on another message board. I don't know how accurate it is, but I did find a similar guide on someone's blog too, with a link I couldn't access. If I find a source for it, I'll post it later. This is only a rough estimate -

6 months= 6 years

12 months= 12 years

2 years= 18 years

3 years= 21 years

10 years= 30 years

20 years= 60 years

30 years= 90 years

There is an element of validity in this, as a foal is able to stand and walk in 24 hours of birth, and to run shortly thereafter, whereas a chronologically 2-year-old human has just figured out what his legs are for. A 6-month-old foal is off the teat, while a 6-month-old child still needs breast milk or formula. You wouldn't think of sending your 6-month-old child to school, but you would send your 6-YEAR-old child to school, while the 6-month-old colt has been weaned and separated from its mother. So horses are miles ahead of humans in developmental milestones. I wouldn't think of breeding my 4-year-old son, either, yet 4-year-old Big Brown and 5-year-old Curlin are happily off to the breeding shed, with our blessing.

So using this guide, yes, I would encourage my teenage son to race, or do whatever he wants to, with proper guidance.

I think what makes starting a hunter/jumper at age 4+ (and I doubt that they are starting green at age 4+ - they have probably been in training or conditioning for several years prior, but just starting their jumping training at that age) is not so much physical ability as it is maturity, discipline, and ability to take and follow orders. A racehorse needs to follow only a few orders - go into the gate, stand in the gate, break from the gate, run, turn left, accelerate when asked, gallop out, and stop. Yes, I realize there is more to it than that - rate, slow down when asked, move right, move left, bust through a hole, switch leads, etc. I am purposely being simplistic here. A hunter/jumper needs to learn to pace the jump, launch the jump, clear the jump, recover from the jump, and then immediately pace the next jump, while curving around the course. This requires sound judgment not only on the part of the rider, but also the horse. So it is totally understandable that this training would start at a later age.

Lipizzaner stallions don't start training until after age 4, and don't perform until age 10 or later.

"Inbreeding" is common ancestors in the second and third generation, "line-breeding" is 4th & 5th generation...line-breeding is an attempt to double-triple up on an ancestor with the hopes of bringing the strengths through and lessening the chance of undesireable hidden recessives.

My take on the Eight Belles tragedy is that as she crossed the wire and her jockey began to pull her up, she stepped off wrong, and upon doing that, stepped off wrong on the other leg, a freak accident. I would not put it down to her lineage or training. But I do have a question; why don't jockeys allow the horses to finish galloping out around the track if their horses are so fresh/excited?

Wouldn't a gradual slow down at that point allow a calmer horse to be presented in the winner's circle? I understand that time is a factor between races, but...

On another note, we have gotten off track of the subject matter-Nicanor. While he is recovering/training, maybe we should get off the ND subject, as Barbaro's lineage is what it is, we cannot change that. We just hope that these upcoming colts/filly(s):-) end up injury free, doing the best that they can,doing what they were bred to do

run!

Hopefully, Nic will be running again soon, and we'll have a new race to talk about. In the meantime; LVR, get a move on, we need new a new foal to talk about!

Concerned Fan

Your posts are good but I do dissagree with some of what you say.  I still am adament with the age issue and I don't think ALL trainers are bad, just some.  I think that Larry Jones is a good trainer and Matz is even better.  I am not going to mention ones I do not like but there a lot that I do like.  

I would never race a horse at 2.  That is me.  What other people do is up to them.  The thing that I have noticed the most in the racing industry is the breakdowns and the things that are being changed because of those breakdowns.  I don't know anything about this Native Dancer stuff so I that is why I was asking about that.  

Also, I know that for "some" people racing is a business.  A lot of people do it for a side project though.  That is how I feel it should be.  The way that things are changing so fast these days, there may come a day where people are going to "need" a different primary source of money other than racing.  We really don't know how far the racing is going to go if things keep on going the way that they do.  It seems to be fading.  That is not a good thing.  

This is why it is so very important for horses like Nicanor, Lentenor and the new baby and other horses to bring people to the track that don't like racing but want to see the horse.  

Your chart looks valid.  Such things are true for a lot of animals like dogs, cats, etc.  The people that are in my life and that I know that have horses do not race them at all.  If they were to race them, it would not be until they are at least 3.  My horse friends are not for the sport of horse racing.  They are against it.  It is a matter of preference.  

horsenut23

I totally agree with you about letting the horse slow down at their own pace.  That would be the most natural thing.  Even with jets and cars, it is rare that they go from 5000-mph to 100mph in two seconds.  They decend slowly.  You wouldn't want to be going 80mph in your car and stop on a dime.  Same concept.

LET THE HORSE SLOW THEMSELEVES DOWN AT THEIR PACE AND STAY ON THE HORSE UNTIL IT IS STOPPED.  That  "may have"  saved Eight Belles.  We will never know.  I don't blame anything on that.  She had a wonderful trainer and Gabe was the best jockey for her.  I had a talk with someone and understood that no other jockey could have done better.  If she would have been able to slow herself down at "her pace", she may have made it.  They should start trying that and see how well it works.  A horse blowing in the winners circle isn't that cool either.  I would rather have them calmed down.  :)

I would never put Kent Desormeaux on any of my horses.  He did not need to pull BB up.  All he had to do was the same thing Edgar did with Nicanor.  I do have a problem with KD.  He knew BB wasn't going to win or even come in the money, he should have let him gallop to the wire!  That horse did NOT want to stop.  Bad call with KD.  

I have seen him do some pretty bad thing in races.  Now MIke, GG, Gabe, JV, a lot of jockeys.  NOT KD.  Sorry I just feel that way.

Greg J. thats a wonderful video of Secretariat, his grandson Awesome Cat looks somewhat like him. Secretariat is a once in a lifetime horse  Wow!!

Thanks

Concerned Fan and SL: good comments about the racing business, it is a business whether your a millionaire or not.

helsbelles: regardless of whether linebreeding or certain lines are fragile, do you not think that training and other factors come into play? Horses can and will take a bad step, they can have weak bone structure from any number of reasons besides breeding.

horsenut23: Most riders do pull up slowly and don't stop until the backside. In her case he was doing just that when she broke down on one leg and then switched leads and broke down on the other one. This has all been gone over and over last year. The time span between races has nothing to do with it, I'm sorry but you make it sound like he pulled her up short because of the time factor. Please don't go there, you do the connections a disservice which they don't warrant.

What happened to Barbaro was an accident.  It had nothing to do with his pedigree.  His pedigree is sound. I hope his brother is born tomorrow, the 24th.  That is my birthday.  Stardust, I agree with you on KD.  What he did to Big Brown was horrible.  I think the horse wanted to run and for some unknown reason KD pulled him up.  

Dona, I don't understand your reference to Bayakoa.  She was a good, strong, sound horse.  The inbreeding was not excessive.  This is all about genes.  Like I said before, Native Dancer was a great horse.  I also don't understand your reference to Miss Disco.  I never said anything derrogatory about Miss Disco out of the great sire Discovery.  Like I said earlier, the problem is that over the past 30 years there has been over-use of inbreeding to produce carbon copy images of what is considered to be ideal.  Native Dancer was considered to be ideal and he was until all the inbreeding started, mutation of genes.  Dona, this is the last time I will speak about this.  I'm done.    

Thanks Wanda, you put it right, the Jockeys do let the horse gallop out for everyones' safety.  When I went down to L.A. for Zenyatta day, I had forgotten how far the Jockeys do gallop out. Remember, some trainers want the horses to get as much as possible out of the race and will ask a jockey to gallop out strongly. That day at Santa Anita, I was with friends that  aren't horse people and I spent most of the afternoon explaning what was going on. The galloping thing was a major issue for them after every race. Want to learn more about racing or refresh your memory, take a novice to the track or better yet a youngster and you may be amazed at how much you don't know.  

helsbelles, I'm not defensive about Native Dancer, when I think someone is wrong, misinformed or ignorant in what they say about a subject that I know a little something about, then I try to clarify some important points. When someone makes a point but they aren't sure, then you can safely say this person is giving the record some thoughtful slack. When someone makes a flat out statement as if it was the truth, with nothing to back it up, that statement needs to be challenged. Take the statement that Raise A Native had weak legs or ankles and was as bad as Native Dancer. Based on what? The fact that he never raced past two? He was unbeaten as a 2yr old, setting a world record and equaling others. He developed bowed tendons and was retired to stud.  Since when is bowed tendons a genetic trait?  Mary keeps using Nasrullah as an example of soundness and strength, yet is critical of Native Dancer's start record. Nasrullah had 10 starts, winning 5 races, while Native Dancer had 21 and won 20. Where's the logic? I'm not saying Nasrulla wasn't a sound horse, but don't hold him up against Native Dancer, there's no comparsion. It's not just my opinion, the record is there for all to see. Breeders went to Native Dancer for good reasons, they went to his offspring for good reasons and we wouldn't have this conversation without him. There wouldn't have been a Barbaro or Nicanor. You call it being defensive, I call it trying to set the record straight.

Wanda

Prado said it best when he stated that "Great race horses like Eight Belles don't come around that often and when they do they want to run in front of the pack.  It is in their nature to be ahead of all of the other horses."  He also said that we will never know what really caused her to breakdown.  

Her tragety was just what it was, a tragety.  No jockey could have saved her that day.  She just wanted to keep on running.  I truly believe that God took her that day for HIS reasons.  Just like he took Barbaro.  Sometimes what happens doesn't make sense until later on in life.  The demise of Eight Belles is no ones fault.  She was a great race horse and she was all race horse.  It was just her time and I don't think any surface, jockey or anything would have made a difference that day.  The one positive thing that came from it is the awareness for other horses.  Barbaro started this and Eight Belles just made sure that no one would forget.  

We will never know how far she would have gone had Gabe not pulled her up.  She may have dropped from someting else.  We just don't know.  What we do know is that she was a wonderful filly and she is in the history books and always will be remembered for her courage that day.  That we DO KNOW.  

Secretariat is a once in a millenium horse! He was magnificent.

Wanda:

I didn't mean that  about pulling up Eight Belles. As I said, it was a freak accident, I did not say he did it because of a time issue. I'm only asking the question about pulling up quickly, because I have never seen a horse drop down to a canter or trot after a race, before entering the winner's circle. Besides, EB hurt herself around the turn didn't she, not right after the finish? I certainly meant no disservice to anybody, especially the connections, I'm sorry you had a misinterperation of my question, I'll try to phrase my questions differently next time.  

Good point horsenut23 about pulling up although having them "calm" before going into the winners circle would take about 1/2 to 45 minutes depending on the horse. I'm sorry I didn't get what you were trying to say the first time. Now that you've explained it differently I understand what you are saying.

Dona, one more time, this is about genes and excessive inbreeding.  How many times do I have to say it, Native Dancer was a great horse.   Everything I have said about inbreeding is a fact.  I have had to correct you many times about misinformation about simple things like a horses pedigree.  Some of the greatest sires were not all that great on the race track, but they were great in the breeding shed.  Again, I am done with this.  You're too defensive for me.  Please do a little homework on pedigree and genes, etc.  

I just read a story about Nearco and Nasrullah. Apparently Nasrullah was a chip off the old block so to speak. Apparently Nasrullah had just came out of the paddock and stopped like his hooves were nailed to the ground. And Nasrullah living in the non-enlightened age was whipped, and prodded by other horses and riders and pulled by his groom for 15 minutes and still he did not budge. Some trainer named Butters finally became incensed and brandished his umbrella at Nasrullah and Nasrullah was still unfazed. Finally, Butters took his umbrella and started poking Nasrullah and finally after another couple of minutes an unmoved, unremorseful, unfrightened Nasrullah moved onto the course. Well I know now where Dynaformer gets his moody crankiness. This article also said Nasrullah was a great horse if he was in the mood.

horsenut23

I know that you don't mean any harm in your posts.  Sometimes people read into things what isn't there.  Misunderstandings always happen on line.  

When's La Ville going to deliver??

I'm on pins and needles waiting.

Just read an ABR post, that today is Eight Belles B-day.

Rest In Peace you beautiful girl, hopefully you're running with Barbaro, Secretariat, and others, on the other side of the Rainbow Bridge! Happy 4th birthday!

Secretariat was a magnificent horse.  It is thought that the reason Secretariat was able to run the way he did in the Belmont was because he inherited a large heart, more than likely from his dam, Somethingroyal who probably inherited it from her sire, Princequillo.  The dam can pass it on to her son or daughter, but the sire can only pass it on to his daughter.  Secretariat may have passed his big heart on to his daughter Weekend Surpirse who passed it on to A.P. Indy and A.P. Indy may have passed it on to Rags to Riches.  That's why she was able to go the distance and beat the boys.  Anyway, it is interesting to read about all of this.  It is believed that it all started with Pocahontas way back in the 1800's. It is believed that she inherited this big heart from descendants of the great Eclipse, and passed it on to her son the magnificent Stockwell.  Secretariat had the biggest heart of all.  I love watching his races, particularly the Preakness.  What a magnificent animal.    

Native Dancer was a good racehorse,  ranked 7th in this poll:

"In late 1998, The Blood-Horse magazine asked seven well-known racing figures to judge the best Thoroughbreds of the 20th century based on their performances in North America.  There were no nominees to choose from and no preconditions for selection.  One hundred and ninety two horses received at least one vote, from which were identified the top 100.

The seven experts included :

Howard Battle: Keeneland racing secretary

Lenny Hale: Vice president, Maryland Jockey Club

Jay Hovdey: Executive columnist with Daily Racing Form

Bill Nack: Senior writer, Sports Illustrated

Pete Pedersen: Senior steward in the state of California

Jennie Rees: Racing writer and columnist, the Louisville Courier-Journal

Tommy Trotter: Steward at Gulfstream Park (on leave)"

http://tinyurl.com/cywqky

The Dancer's great grandsire, Sickle, was retired because of sore ankles:

www.tbheritage.com/.../Sickle.html

"In the Derby Stakes, Call Boy won rather easily by two lengths over Hot Night, Shian Mor, and Buckfast. Sickle was well placed and managed fifth over a distance that was beyond his best effort. He returned from the race appearing in good sorts, but the uphill climb to the finish at Epsom had taken its toll. Sickle later came up "stiff and sore," in his pasterns, and was unable to be brought back to the races. He ended his career with a record of ten starts, three wins (all at two), and earnings of �3,915."

(TB Heritage is a very nice site for those wanting to know more about Thoroughbreds through history)

The sire line of Phalaris is, in most regards, about precociousness and speed, but not always the ability to run a classic distance.

Given the above about Sickle, I would not rule out a hereditary factor in the pastern/ankles.  What is a factor, is this line produces a heavier horse.  If you take a look at a lot of "modern" thoroughbreds, what you see looks more like a Quarter Horse.  A QH might be able to carry his weight over a short distance on less than desirable underpinnings and get away with it.  Not so with the thoroughbred.  Northern Dancer, a grandson of Native D, also contributed to this.

The Native Dancer line was responsible for some good horses a while back, Majestic Prince, Affirmed, and Alydar come to mind, either sons or grandsons of Raise A Native. (But not duplicated in their dam lines)  The problems began with the crossing and interweaving of too many of the same lines.  Mr. Prospector is also a son of Raise A Native.  This can produce problems in the legs.

Barbaro's dam grandsire is Mr. Prospector.  However, Barbaro's pedigree is not loaded with those lines.

While I don't agree with Ms. Parker on everything, Eight Belles pedigree is a problem. In a five generation pedigree, there are three crosses to Raise A Native and another back to Native Dancer.

Eight Belles was a big mare- this line produces some big, heavily muscled horses.  If the bone structure is not there, they run a risk.

As for tendons vs. bone problems- if there is a tendency to weakness in the "lines" that hold the bones up, one or the other is going to suffer and it may be luck that a tendon problem didn't immediately lead to a broken bone.  If there is a conformation flaw, that structure will be more prone to damage.

Inbreeding and line breeding carries a risk.  It's a genetic dice roll.  You can have a horse like Discovery in the lines, but there is no guarantee his propensity to soundness will prevail.

I do not believe Barbaro's breakdown was due to his pedigree.

But I think a lot of modern thoroughbreds have too little hybrid vigor.  

FYI, Princequillo was known for transmitting soundness and correct front legs.  He was known as "Mr. Fix It."  But no horse can always fix everything.  Genetic dice roll again.

I know La Ville is supposed to deliver another colt- but I'd like them to be wrong about that and give the owners the filly they've wanted!

I am new to this blog and a BIG Nicanor fan.I loved Barbaro. If anyone wants to read a good book read "My Guy Barbaro" written by Edgar Prado. Just a beautiful book. I wanted to share with all. I am taking riding lessons and got a thrill of a lifetime. I rode a racehorse that is related to the great Seretariat and Ack Ack. Just wanted to share. Go Nicanor Go!!!

Mary - Everything you've said is your opinion, not fact. You made one correction because I typed in Bold Bidder not Bold Ruler. You're the one that needs to learn how to look at a pedigree. Yeah, you said Native Dancer was a great race horse but you started all of this by claiming he had weak legs, questioned his stamina and even stated he received a resessive gene and passed it along. What an outrageous thing to say and offer no proof whatsoever. Where did a "recessive gene" come from? What recessive gene? You remind me of that idiot on the radio that cites alien bases in the Antarctic Circle and his listeners believe it cause "they heard it on the radio". You repeatedly slur Native Dancer without one shred of evidence. What? You think there's over breeding by using him? That's your opinion! Not a fact. Prove what you say, cite credible sources. You said Eight Belles was doomed? Anne Peters said to blame her pedigree was ludicrous! I choose to believe her expert opinion as does the racing industry. If you make outrageous statements or prevaricate, what do you expect? You stated Native Dancer had muscular calves! Where on a horse are calves, Ms expert?

Chris   How do you think she feels LOL.

Folks, there is no "unsoundness" gene.  You will not find one gene that is in anyway remotely responsible for a catastrophic breakdown.

If you could do nuclear scans on every horse that had a catastrophic breakdown right before they went to the track (and subsequently broke down), you would inevitably find that the area of bone that failed would light up, even though the horse appeared perfectly sound.  Breakdowns don't (usually) come out of the blue--something is going on before the bone fails.

The hope for preventing catastrophic breakdowns lies in research for blood testing that identifies the markers in the blood for bone changes.  Wouldn't it be great to be able to run routine blood tests that show problems before they become evident in heat in the leg or overt soundness issued.

Genes only affect some aspects, albeit most, of the final conformation of a horse.  Environment and chance also affect the final structure.  Growth rates can be changed by the quantity and quality of feed, which in turn has an effect on the development of OCDs.  Turn out as babies have long-term effects on the bone and joint soundness of a racehorse.

You cannot blame an ancestor for the soundness of horse, although you might be able to blame an ancestor for the general conformation, but even so, it is a combination of genes that produce the final product.  How that final product is handled in training is the trainer's responsibility.  A good trainer can work around conformation flaws and keep a horse sound who might otherwise break down in the hands of a less skilled trainer.

One more comment on inbreeding:  EVERY single Thoroughbred traces back to at least one of three foundation stallions, The Byerley Turk, The Darley Arabian and the Godolphin.  All Thoroughbreds are inbrecd.

Elon, Im pretty sure the Matz horses will be back at Fair Hill in mid April. Lentenor should be joining the Fair Hill gang pretty soon after that.

I've been waiting for LVR to foal. It seems as though Amanda is waiting too, for her next chapter.  Im hoping the sexing was wrong and she is carrying a filly. LVR is so beautiful and Dynaformer has a way of throwing his best attributes toward his daughters. Im not sure ive seen many fillys more beautiful then Rainbow View..shes stunning to look at. Not to shabby on the race track either.

While i am very much an amatuer, ive never or bred or raced my own horses,i have been a horse lover since practially birth and a racing fan for many years. Ive seen many horses break down, tragically, it's a fact. I dont think there is really one reason why this happens to some horses while others who share similar genetics traits are sound throughout grueling careers. I think it is a combination of genetics, environment, nutrician and handling that contribute to break downs.

I would also like to touch on the Desourmeoux factor. Cant stand him, never could. If the horse was mine, KD would be the last person on it. What i saw in the Belmont was the jock holding back a horse who wanted to run right from the break,  BB fought KD all the way down the backside, then when KD wanted BB to run, Brownie was like screw you buddy. Had KD let BB have his way, there might have been a very different outcome. Then again he may still have finished last, its anyones guess. I just do not like KD's tude.

Back to the subject at hand, although Nicanor did not fair well in his first start, i agree he probably learned a lot and will do better in his next start. Im glad to hear he has healed and is back in training. Above all, i am glad he was not injured more seriously. I, as much as (almost) everyone else, want to see Nicanor do well in his career, but above all, I want him to have a long healthy life, no matter how he does on the track.

Has Nicky breezed again?  Wondering when his next race will be scheduled. When in March???  Foward Hoooo, sweet Nicky...

Dona, read what HorseFirst said.  Calling me an idiot is just terrible and I feel sorry for you.  I won't be addressing any of your comments again.  Using the word "calves" was merely a slip up.  No matter what names you call me, I will not respond to you. I hope that you will be more respectful of the opinions and knowledge of others that write on this board.    

OK, Nicanor has Second Work:

Nicanor

Date: February 24, 2009

Track: PALM MEADOWS TRAINING CENTER

Distance: Four Furlongs

Time: 49:85 Breezing

Track Condition: Fast

Surface: Dirt

Rank: 21/28

Next Race Should Be Soon !

Amanda, Any news about Rockland ?, Have not seen a workout since He raced on Jan. 31? Hope he is OK, Any News would be welcome, thanks...

JAJ all horses do have some inbreeding going way back.  But in many horses it is extreme.  Look at Eight Belles pedigree and then look at Barbaro.  Barbaro has some inbreeding but it is not extreme.  There are many articles and studies done on this.  Do a Google search.  I have spent hundreds of hours reading about this.  

Greg J;

Thanks for info on Nic, they're still taking it easy with him which is good!

Mary:

It is a known fact that Secretariat's heart was one and a half times bigger than the normal heart, it was written about when his necropsy was done after he died. And, I believe his sire (Bold Ruler) is whom he carried this from and his grandsire (Nasrullah) is said to have had it also. But. I'll go back in the archives to check.

There has been some research done by vets about heart rates and speed, and certain bloodlines that carry it. It was in Equus magazine and online on Equisearch.com. If I can find it, I'll post it.

Stardust/Chris:

If either of you have been pg, you would know how she is feeling. She is probably wishing everyone would walk right by her stall and NOT ask how she is feeling today! LOL,LOL :-)

Horsenut23,

Secretariat's large heart came from his mother Somethingroyal.  Her sire was Princequillo.  The thinking is that the dam can give the large heart to her son, but her son cannot give it to his son, but he can give it to his daughter.  Google "Chasing the X-factor".  Many articles have been written on this.  The firt known case of a big heart was with Eclipse, who passed it on to many of his daughters.  Secretariat got his speed from the great Bold Ruler and his big heart from Somethingroyal.  

Bold Ruler may have had a big heart, but he would have to pass it on to his daughters, not his sons.  The same for Nasrullah.  If Bold Ruler had a big heart, it would be through his dam's side.  The articles on the X-factor are so interesting  I will never forget the great Secretariat.  Bold Ruler and Somethingroyal were a great pair.  Too bad they did not breed those two together over and over. Secretariat's athletic ability came from Bold Ruler.  Physically Secretariat throws back more to Bold Ruler's dam sire, the "Iron Horse", Discovery.  Google "Pedigree study".  

MDfan, you weren't on Big Brown that day so you don't know what Kent felt. Holding Big Brown back in a 1.5 mile race is not an unusual move, I think that any jock on him would have done the same, made him rate. He probably used up some energy getting rank early. But realistically, I don't think he could have led for 1.5 miles. If Kent had given him his head and let him burn himself out before the stretch, he would have been soundly criticized for that too - unless Big Brown won, it was a lose-lose for Kent, because anything he would have done, the armchair jockeys and sports journalists would have ripped him apart if Big Brown lost. *I* think he did what was best for his horse under the circumstances. I'm sure this is an "agree-to-disagree" situation, but that is my opinion. I don't blame Kent a bit for what he did. If he'd let Big Brown go full out, knowing the race was lost, and something bad happened to Big Brown, everyone would be blaming him anyway, so he can't win for losing.

Thank you HorseFirst, a thoughtful and timely input and  for mentioning the Thoroughbred Heritage web-site. Under contributors, is the esteemed pedigree analyst Anne Peters who has spent her entire life in the thoroughbred industry and is a Pedigree Analyst for Three Chimneys where Dynaformer stands. When she says that Eight Belles' pedigree had nothing to do with her breakdown, I think we can surmise that she knows what she's talking about.  Inbreeding, Linebreeding, I leave to the experts, because that's what they do, they're EXPERTS. Claiming a horse had a genetic defect, when there's absolutely no credible evidence, is another matter.  One word here about what we post on this blog, Yes, this is for the public to express their opinion, however, as in anything we do or say, there's an implied obligation here to not be inflammatory in our stated opinions. After all Amanda can and will hit the old eject button (so to speak). There are readers here that loved Barbaro, thus Nicanor, and they honestly confess to not knowing much about horses or racing. Imagine the conclusions that they could and probably will take from the information that is exchanged here. We need more fans of horses and the racing industry. Making outragious statements must be labeled as "your own opinion " and not as a fact! I bow to Webster's for the following definition of a fact, "That which has actual existence; an event". The evidence may be there that more can be done to improve the breeding industry, but it seems to me, they themselves are more aware of it than we the lay people will ever be. After all, they're in it for the money, the love of horses and the longevity of the industry.  No, Mary, I did not call you an idiot, you miss read what I said or did not understand the analogy.  Either way, it proves what I have said .

First off, I would like to thank you all for excersizing my brain and making me think. There are many good points made on this blog...and some not so brilliant ones that make me laugh.

I just did a little research into Native Dancers pedigree and yes, there is inbreeding. Particularly if you go back further then 5 generations, where the inbreeding is prevalent. Geisha, is inbred to Ben Brush & Domino, as well as his daughter Pink Domino.  If you follow it further back there is Lexington, Boston & Stockwell no less then 3 times each. But, that's the case with most thoroughbreds today. In fact, it's harder to find one without inbreeding, then with.

As someone pointed out earlier, all TB's trace back to the three foundation sires. I imagine that early on in the history of thoroughbred breeding, there was not a wide variety of well bred, talented horses.  As a result, many horses where very closely bred.

Someone mentioned in a previous post that Sickle, had passed down bad ankles to his decendents. I'd like to point out several recent top level horses that had no soundness issues who have a direct sire line back to Sickle of the infirm ankles. Street Sense,  Zenyatta, Alydar and thru him, one of my all time fav's, Criminal Type. Then there is Hard Spun.  Again, through his sire you go directly back to Sickle. I have a feeling this young son of Danzig will make a significant mark in generations to come. I could go on endlessly about seccessful racing careers of horses directly related to Sickle.

I guess my point is, there are many horses in that line who have been completely sound their whole careers. However, you can also make a case for horses in that line not being sound and having catastrophic breakdowns or retired due to injury. I believe that breeding for speed alone is a dangerous thing, and that maybe more bone needs to be bred into the breed. I am just theorizing, but horses with thicker bones might be able to withstand the extreme forces these glorious animals exert on their muscle tendon and bone, for our entertainment, better then what we have seen recently.  It seems to me the horses of a 3 or 4 generations ago were more durable then the horses racing today. Maybe too much attention is being put on the wrong end of injuries. Maybe its not the cause we should study, but new more sophisticated treatments for them. Id like to think we all remember Barbaro's legacy and focus on more advances in treatment of injuries that are considered "fatal".

To make another point it's hard to tell a horses durability when they are retired at the end of their 3 yr old careers. Breeding has become such a big business that owners of top level horses, although sound they may be, are not willing to take the risk of racing them and proving they are durable, in order that the horse can proceed to the lucrative breeding shed. Maybe its become too much about money and not enough about the horses welfare.

Stud farms are charging enourmous fee's for their services, which is passed along to the consumer in the sales ring. Then there is the gang from Dubai. Dont get me wrong, I think Sheik Mohammad's heart and perhaps his theory, is in the right place. God know's his money certainly is. He is an excellent & avid horseman and very knowledgable on the breed's history and I respect that. However, it makes it hard for the rest to compete for top level talent when you are up against someone with seemingly unlimited resources like Darley/Godolphin. They along with the Coolmore people, have catapulted sale prices & stud fee's into the stratosphere.

Concerned, who are you, Desourmeoux's wife or the head of his fan club?

Scientific papers, industry data, and commentaries by leading racing insiders, revealed that modern race horses are subject to such extreme patters of inbreeding that their fundamental well-being is under threat.  Also, many have suggested that excessive inbreeding has led to powerful, fast horses and exceedingly fragile bones.  Listen, Congress is talking about this.  It's a serious issue, for these beautiful creatures of God cannot speak for themselves.  I hope that breeders start breeding horses that have powerful strong bones, like Secretariat, Seattle Slew, Discovery, and others.  Like I said, studies have indicated that over the past 30 years there has been over-use of inbreeding to produce "carbon copy" images of what is considered to be ideal.  Speed is the main criteria, which is unconscionable.

Dona, no comment.  

Someone mentioned nuclear scanning of the legs.  It has long been a wish of mine that every horse would

be scanned on race day morning, or right before a morning work to detect problems before they erupt into catastrophic events.  But, realistically I know it is cost prohibitive.  I agree that the trainer's ability level is essential, but a good trainer can only do so much.  When a horse is so irresponsibly bred, even a master at training can't keep that horse together... it is just a matter of when not if.  Yes, I am looking forward to that blood test that can detect at risk horses, but wonder how will it be instituted to force people to abide by the results.  I wish I had the freedom here to talk about specific horses, but I know I do not.  Some are so ridiculously bred, you scratch your head wondering what were they thinking, or were they even thinking at all.  Every breeder should be educated and want to do the right thing by the horse.  I'll get off my soap box now.

I also love Secretariat's races-- His Preakness is my all-time favorite, followed closely by his ManO'War... when he makes that move he looks like the rocket boosters just fired off.  He was such a sound horse, too bad he wasn't kept on the track... no limit to what he could have achieved.

http://tinyurl.com/d6yt74

(Page down if it doesn't open to Native Dancer)

"A massive, heavy-topped horse with suspicious ankles inherited from his sire Polynesian, Native Dancer suffered from recurrent soundness problems throughout his career and tended to pass the trait on to his get."

This site is a marvelous read for those interested in pedigrees.  I do believe the line from Sickle can produce leg problems.  It may or may not present in a specific horse.  But if you inbreed/linebreed to the line with the problem, you can be asking for trouble.

IMHO, it's not just the Sickle line that is the problem but I'll need to do more research and air my ideas where others are more versed in bloodlines.

I already stated that you can get some amazing horses from the ND line- Alydar for one.  BUT, they are not intensely linebred to the line.  Enter Mr. Prospector, grandson of Native Dancer by Raise A Native, precocious for passing on early speed and yes, not so good legs. He's crossed back on the ND and Northern Dancer lines and IMHO, this exacerbates the problems. You have to read a lot and not from the proponents of the specific horse to get at the truth. Bold Ruler was known to throw problems, but if memory serves, more arthritic issues.

You cannot load up a pedigree with one line without doing a lot of research.  You can lock in some good traits that way but you will also lock in the bad with the good.

TB Heritage is a nice site but you won't find too much on the passing of soundness issues.  However, for example, Sir Barton's sire, Star Shoot, was known to pass on "ouchy" (thin walled) feet and Sir Barton had foot problems.  Witness the press over Big Brown's bad feet and he's from a sire purported the throw those.  Yes, there is a genetic component to everything, no less the horses structure.

Now, when is that mare going to foal?!!  Think, "Filly, filly, filly...."

I sure do agree with you helsbelles.  Watching Secretariat in the Preakness was extraordinary.  Ron Turcotte said that he made a little gesture like he was adjusting his sleeve, took Secretariat to the outside, and the horse just took off.  Ron let him go.  Secretariat was one of God's greatest creatures.  I guess he didn't need to be rated, with that big heart, rating was unnecessary.  I would love to see another Secretariat.  I'm sure there are a few out there like him, but the trainer, owner, and jockey just don't know it.  In Secretariat's case, none of his connections knew that he was capable of running like that.  

"Concerned, who are you, Desourmeoux's wife or the head of his fan club?"

MDfan, because I don't hate Desormeaux, or agree with your opinion, you assume I'm in the tank for Kent? Apparently you and I saw the Belmont differently. You have your opinion, and I have mine. I don't agree with dumping on a jockey for how he ran a race if you weren't in the race. You have no idea what Kent felt, or thought he felt, when he asked Big Brown to accelerate and he couldn't. He was sitting on history, and also sitting on a $50 million dollar stud deal. He had choices to make. Imagine if he'd forced that $50 million dollar baby to do something he couldn't, and Big Brown took a wrong step - the world would hate him forever. When he saw that they couldn't finish in the money, he saved the horse.

In Nicanor's race, Prado wasn't sure what was up with Nicanor, but he knew something was wrong. Following your Desormeaux logic, he should have ignored it and powered through the pileup and tried to win the race. Instead, being the experienced jockey that he is, he eased him up and Nicanor finished out of the money. You hail Prado as a hero who did what he had to to save his horse, but criticize Desormeaux for doing the same thing. Why? Because Prado was on Nicanor, and Kent blew the Triple Crown.

Kent was under a lot of pressure to make history - instead, he thought of his horse first and did the unthinkable - he denied us a Triple Crown winner. Was it a mistake? Maybe.. probably.. but don't trash him for thinking of the horse first. And I think that is admirable. If I was an owner, I would probably think of Kent before Edgar because Desormeaux runs his race - Prado is agressive and sometimes a bully whose main objective is not always winning, but sometimes keeping others from winning, even if it costs him the race (it is the opinion of some that he forced Dunkirk 7 wide at Dunkirk's last out).

So next time you sit a horse in a high-pressure history-making/breaking race, let us know how easy it is to make the right decisions. Until then, ease up on Kent Desormeaux.

Helsbelles - I am a nuclear medicine technologist (for humans). As nice as it would be to be able to nuclear scan a horse before every race, it is not only cost-prohibitive but also exposes the horse needlessly to ionizing radiation. IMO, there are other modalities that are less harmful to the horse. I don't know the exact protocols for doing a nuclear scan on a horse, but I know that for humans, a single image, say of a leg, takes 5 minutes of nonmotion. I am not sure if that would require sedation for a horse or not - on raceday, or even the day before a race, this probably would not be possible.

I am probably talking out my posterior orifice here, since I know nothing of veterinary nuclear medicine, and I can only go off my own experience. It seems that there are other modalities which take less time, and would not require exposing the horse to ionizing radiation multiple times a year.

I'd give my left arm to be a veterinary nuc med tech, though.

horsenut23

Oh yeah I know just exactly how she feels LOL.  

As for the comment on BB and KD.  IN MY OPINION, it is utterly stupid to pull a horse back to a stop when they are not lame.  He didn't want to come off the board.  Nothing more, nothing less.  That horse could have done EXACTLY what Nicanor did.  Prado did what was right.  He let the horse run at his own pace cause he knew that he was not on top of Barbaro and he didn't  CARE about the stupid money as much as the horse.  That is the difference with those two jockeys IMO.  :)

Don't get me wrong.  I love Big Brown and I wish him well every single day.  He is a really cool horse.  It is sad that he has that problem with his hooves.  :(

Bold Ruler, son of Nasrullah and sire of Secretariat, was a headstrong sort who despised rating, which cost him any chance of the Kentucky Derby.  He used up too mcuh energy fighting with his jockey and finished 4th.  But in the Preakness the jockey let the free-running colt have his own way, and he won.  Nicanor is head-strong like Bold Ruler  What a beautiful colt he is.  Nicanor is a winner.

HorseFirst, I read the entire article.  Genetics is something, isn't it.  Thank you.  I learn more each day.  I love to read about these beautiful creatures.  I just want them to be sound and strong, and healthy. I hope that you will read the articles about the X-factor and pedigree genetics.  Great reads.

HorseFrist, I agree you have to be objective when reading all of this material, which is what I have done. I was hoping that LVR will foal today, my birthday, but I guess that is not to be.  Oh well Happy Mardi Gras everyone.  I live in New Orleans, Louisiana.      

"Concerned Fan" - you've taken my comments way too far out of context and meaning.

I followed Rockport Harbor, Round Pound, Hard Spun, Eight Belles...the list goes on. I have NOTHING against Rick Porter. I have been involved on "Rocky's" blog for YEARS. Having gotten to know Rick through that blog, he is a businessman, not a horseman, and THAT is my point. No where did I say "Rick Porter is a big fat jerk rolling in money and killing his horses." So stop trying to  create a situation. Nor did I state "Gretchen and Roy Jackson are the Gods of the horse world and would never race a horse at two." I hail from Chester County, home to the Jacksons and a stone's throw from Rick Porter. I know a lot about both "stables" through my connections in the horse world. Yes, they are both in it for the game and the money. However, my ONLY point is that I don't see a business person making decisions based on the horse's well being the way I would see a horse person make them. Not because they don't care for their horses, but because they lack the knowledge. A trainer can advise, but they are at the owner's mercy. This is true in all horse sports.

One thing we all have in common is:

"we all have opinions", be it right or wrong...

Go Brothers of Barbaro!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Concerned Fan

I think all we are trying to say is that KD pulled him to a stop and everyone there that day thought that Brownie was injured.  As Slews trainer said "you NEVER pull a horse back like that when they are not lame".  Kent could have just eased him to the wire.  He stopped him. Big difference.  Brownie could have cantered to the wire. It looked like KD wasn't coming in the money so he used the excuse that BB was injured when he really was just simply out of gas.  Yeah the shoe I know.  :)  IMO

ElonGrad97 - To refresh your memory -

"Rick Porter (business man) is in it for the money, his horses are racing at 2. The Jacksons (horse people) sit back and take the advice of their trainer going for longevity on the track rather than the quick buck."

The implication of your post was that Rick runs his horses at 2 because he is in it for the quick buck, whereas the Jacksons love their horses and don't race them at 2. I don't know Rick personally, but from what I know of him, he cares very deeply about his horses, even the ones that aren't doing as well as Old Fashioned or Friesan Fire. The fallacy of your post is that Matz DOES run horses at 2 (Rockland, anybody?), and Barbaro himself ran at 2, so the Jacksons obviously do too. If the Jacksons wanted a hobby farm, they could very well have that. But they race horses, and they know it's a business, and they have to make business decisions just as Porter has to. That was the crux of my reply to you.

My reply to others (thus the "you all") on this forum (and they know who they are) was that the feeling I get from some of the posts here is that the Jacksons are the only (infallible) owners who are nice to their horses, Matz is the only trainer who cares about horses, and Edgar Prado's silks are equipped with angel's wings. All others are beneath them. One person who posts here DID say some unsavory things about Mr. Porter and has suggested that other trainers and jockeys are dishonest and cruel. The truth is that there are good owners and not so good owners, and the same with trainers and jockeys. The Jackson/Matz/Prado combination works. I think that they understand each other.

I don't know what, say, Todd Pletcher would have done about Barbaro. Or Rick Porter, as an owner. They were not in that situation - it was Matz and the Jacksons. There is nothing that says to me that Saez or Desormeaux or Mike Smith or any other jockey wouldn't have done just what Prado did after Barbaro's breakdown. We don't know - it was Prado. He acted quickly and most likely saved his horse's life that day. I think any TC-quality jockey would have done the same thing. They don't get there by not knowing horses and not caring.

I totally understand the attraction to Barbaro - I was just as in shock when he broke down, searched the web for information just like many of you all, posted "Get Well" messages to Barbaro, cried when he was euthanized, sent sympathy messages to the Jacksons, just like many here. I read this blog to find out info on the brothers, just like you all. But please, people - be realistic. Is that asking too much?

Concerned, let's face it, Kent Desormeaux is no Edgar Prado. KD is not on the top ten list of jockeys Edgar is number seven. Had Edgar been on Brownie I dont think we would still be waiting for another Triple Crown winner. It's well known that Kent almost destroyed his own career, and yes, he has worked hard to get it back, but I do not think he has the confidence he once had. The pressure did indeed, get to him.

 How many of IEAH's horses is Desormeaux riding now?

mdfanofracing

Do you think that Edgar would have won the Belmont on BB?  Is that what I am getting here?  As much as I agree with your post I have to dissagree with that.  I love Edgar and I love a lot of jockeys.  Gabe is one that I happen to like.  JV, Mike Smith, CN, on and on.  There are really only a couple of jockeys that I don't like.  

I don't think that Brownie would have won the TC with Edgar but I do feel that Edgar would have come in the money.  If not, I don't think that he would have stopped the horse.  Edgar doesn't stop horses when they are not lame.  He stopped Barbaro ONLY because he had 27 peices of broken bones in his leg.  AND he saved his life by doing so.  Edgar is my favorite jockey true but I don't think that Brownie would have won with any jockey, however as I said, any other jockey I feel would have at least hit the board with Brownie.  

KD has a huge ego.  I have seen him nearly knock people off other horses before to get ahead of them.  I have seen him to that a lot.  

Prado is a  very good jockey and the difference between the two is Edgar likes to win but he puts the horse first. Brownie was running like Nicanor.  He had a problem with his shoe.  Edgar would have felt that and made the call but I highly doubt he would have pulled him to a stop.  

I adore Larry Jones.  I think he is also one of the best trainers in the states. It is obvious that he loves his horses. So much that he is quitting at the end of the year.  Eight Belles broke his heart.  I doubt that it will really ever heal.  

We will never really know what would have happened with a different jockey.  I have never liked Dutrow.  He was furious with KD for what he did and I am beginning to understand why.  Just because a  horse doesn't WIN doesn' t mean stop the horse when the shoe lace comes undone.  :)

I do agree with what you say though.  Hey he may have won, I don't think so.  He really was out of gas BUT he still wanted to run and Kent had a really hard time stopping him.  He should have let him finish the race.  

OH one more thing.  I believe that had Eight Belles been able to be saved, they would have done everything they could just like the Jackson's to save her.  I hate if's but that is my take on that.

"Rick Porter (business man) is in it for the money, his horses are racing at 2. The Jacksons (horse people) sit back and take the advice of their trainer going for longevity on the track rather than the quick buck."

I am against this racing at 2!  I love Larry Jones and his love for horses.  Racing at 2 IMO is way too young.  I don't dislike Rick Porter because of this, I simply don't agree with a horse running at 2.  That's all.  :)  If there is no horse, there is no money.  

Hey There Stardust, I just want to clear something up, I am a huge Big Brown Fan, and NO jockey could have gotten BB to win or come close to winning the Belmont, I love Edgar but it had nothing to do with the jockey, BB's shoe came loose , Then the nail went back in wrong spot, which affected the horse, so KD did what any good jockey will do, He thought about the safety of the horse and eased him up, Here is a link to what I am Talking about :

machochip.com/.../big-browns-shoes-werent-tied-d.php

Also, Read this Stardust :

sports.espn.go.com/.../story

Brownie would have won the Triple Crown if not for a loose shoe !, End of Story....

Greg J. - Thank you for making my point. Mdfan, you and I should agree to disagree on KD, I stated my opinion and you stated yours, and before this turns into a war of words, I will put it to rest.

OK Greg.  I'll read that stuff.  I still believe he should have been able to run on his own to the wire and not stopped.  

I never said he would win.  I said he would maybe come in the money. I don't think he would have won that race.  I do however feel that KD did not need to stop him.  Slowed him down maybe but not do what he did.  

Not going to burst your bubble Greg J but the "shoe" that caused all the problems was no big deal. The shoe was sprung NOT loose. Horses run on sprung shoes no problem. The horse himself got himself beat, plain and simple.

Greg J., do you really think that Big Brown lost the triple crown because of a loose shoe.  Big Brown had hoof problems, and I believe that his connections would have focused on that before the running of the Belmont. I don't buy the loose shoe scenario.  Many horses have come close to winning the triple crown, but their loss was never blamed on a loose shoe, makes no sense.    

Stardust, when I first brought up Big Brown and the Belmont I said that, I thought Kent Desormeaux gave him a terrible ride. that's my opinion and I'm stickin to it.  I never said Edgar Prado would have won the Belmont if he had been riding him. Big Brown wanted to go right out of the gate and Kent fought him for the first half mile. Clearly, the horse wanted to run. Big Brown burned up so much energy fighting the rider that when the rider wanted him to go, the horse didnt have anything or was most likely confused thinking, what, you want me to run now?  Hahaha!

I did say that Edgar would probably have let him go, Given the horses performances in the Derby & Preakness, it was no secret the horse was fast. In hindsight, had he been let go to the front, it's most likely he would have outdistanced the field pretty easily, could he have kept it for a mile and a half ? That's something we will never know.

Greg, your right, no horse has ever won a race with a loose shoe.

All the debate about running horses at age two.  I personally will believe what vets say - - that it is beneficial to their growth.

Greg  I really don't know what to think of that race.  I love Brownie and I know he is a good horse.  He wasn't the same horse that day and most of us know it.  I don't think the shoe was that big of a deal.  I do believe that he did use a lot of his energy fighing KD and I still think he would have hit the board even with Kent.  I don't think he would have 'won' the race with any jockey and I believe that is 'really' why KD stopped him.  He is not a good loser.  

As for racing a horse at 2.  I am against it and always will be.  I don't care who the trainer is.  I am still against it.  The only way that I would be for it is if the horse was REALLY 2 years old in time.  That would be the only way.  Just too young IMO.  

mdfanofracing  OK I went back and re-read your post.  I agree with it.  I don't think that Brownie would have won that race BUT I totally believe that he would have hit the board.  You are absosutly right with your post.  Edgar would never have trouble getting a mount and he is a hell of a lot better of a jockey than KD.  A lot of these posts I don't read so I went back to read yours and made sure that I knew what to say here LOL.  I read most of these on here but when I see some of them, I just scroll by cause I know it is a waist of time to read them.  

Thanks Greg for the information. :)

O.K. guys.  This thread has gone off on a Big Brown tangent.  That TC race and the Belmont are over.  Let's stay on subject. This is not the Big Brown blog.

mdfanofracing

NO horse has ever won a race with a loose shoe?  NEVER LOL?  :)  I think a lot of them do.  I don't know but that is my belief.  Maybe Amanda knows that one.  I have no clue.  It would seem that out of the thousands of races there would few a few hitting with a loose shoe LOL.  Actually that shoe wasn't loose.  Really BB is the only one that knows how he felt, poor guy.  I do belive he was very confused. :(  He did need a different down to Earth jockey. :) IMO

Re:  2-year old racing

Stardust,

I won't say never, but it is unheard of to start a 2-year old in  a race who hasn't passed his actual second birth date.

There are two reasons for that.  First, two-year old races aren't written until late May, which is after the majority of Thoroughbreds have turned two.  Most Thoroughbreds are born from January until May, with a few in June.  March is the month that has the most foals born.  Second, most 2-year olds are not physically ready to even train at racing speed until late in their two-year old year.

It is not the norm to work (those timed breezes at near racing speed) a baby until after their second birthday and after their knees have closed.  By that I mean the growth plates in their legs have finished growing and have calcified.  Trainers often x-ray the knees just to be sure the knees are closed before asking for speed work.

It takes at least a couple of months of regular speed work before they are anywhere near ready for a race.

A trainer can't just decide to race a baby at 2.  The horse dictates whether or not they will make it to the races.  A horse that grows unevenly will be stopped on because the uneven growth (higher back end) will put uneven stresses on the joints.  Their movement goes off and a wise trainer simply stops.  The baby gets time off on the farm or the gallops slow down.  If a trainer decided to forge ahead and throw speed at an unbalanced baby, the baby would end up hurt.

Yes, horseracing is a physically demanding sport.  Injuries happen, but 2-year olds statistically have fewer injuries than the older horses.

Stardust, BB wasn't terribly confused when he went on to win the rest of his races under Kent. KD seemed pretty down to earth after the Belmont.

Any other jockeys you wish to malign who just can't meet Prado's angel status?

JAJ nicely put.

It is my opinion that even though Edgar is not the top jockey in earnings, he is still the top jockey in my eyes because he cares a lot about the horses welfare and everything else that needs to be done.  

Actually there are really only a couple of jockeys that I don't care for.  I like most of them.  KD is one that I cannot stand because of his blown up ego.  There are a couple others.  But to answer your question, no there are no jockeys that I have bad feelings for really.  

There are a lot of bad trainers, owners and people in this industry as well as good.  We are weeding out the bad.  Well Barbaro is.  :)

Edgar Prado was the Angel that Barbaro needed on that day of the Preakness in 2006.  Had he not had Edgar, he may have never made it off that track.  Prado with the whip that day?  Giving it back to the jockey when the reigns were lose? He does amazing things for others.  

I would not want any other jockey riding my horses if I had race horses.  :)

I am so proud of Nicanor's second race. 2nd is GREAT. He is learning and he has talent. Way to go NICANOR!!!!!!

Nicanor is a handsome boy. I know he has a chance to win the Kentucky Derby and so forth. And you know why cause he has this fire in his eyes that Barbaro had but Barbaro doesn't have a fire like Nicanor's cause Nicanor's fire is bigger than Barbaro. Also I'm not hating Barbaro cause I do like Barbaro and Nicanor but I'm saying that Nicanor might have a better chance of going all the way through the Triple Crown.