Cool, but I'm training challenged. Can someone translate this......is this fast, adverage? thanks

Wow, how exciting!  Thanks for the info!

Nice work Nicky!  Know Mr Matz must be giving him long gallops to build stamina but just curious why trainers today don't do long work outs like the trainers of yesterday. Any body know their thinking on this?

Will it be an allowance race soon and then the Virginia Derby  or go for broke in the Turf Cup and Derby next month? Oh baby!

Speaking of babies, hows the little one doing and what's the latest on Lentenor? Seems like it was just about this time last year when Nicanor had his first work. Anything at all on Lentenor is sure welcomed.  

Thanks for the info, appreciate any and all news.    

Nicanor should be a force in the 3yr old stakes ranks on the turf.  He seems to be following in the steps of his more illustrious brother. Barbaro was a turf monster!

A furlong is one-eighth of a mile. For training purposes, a solid workout will be conducted with an average of 12 seconds per eighth of a mile. So, the three furlongs is the equivalent of three-eighths of mile and doing it in :37 seconds is right in line with what one would like to see for a good horse going forward.

Way to go Nicky!!  3 furlongs in half a minute!. Keep up the good work.  We're all pullin' for you.

Whoohoo, Looking forward to Nicky's next race. Oh, should I start now to plan a trip to see the Virginia Derby?

   How cool would that be if he gets in!, I am so there if he does, only about a one hour drive from me in Connecticut!, I don't believe he will get in like Ron said, But one never knows...

   Looking at the Condition Book, I assume Mr. Matz is talking about Race #3 Saturday, A $56,000 Allowance Race, For Three Year Olds and Upward Which Have Never

Won A Race Other Than Maiden, Claiming, Starter, Or Restricted or Which Have Never Won

Two Races.  ONE MILE AND ONE SIXTEENTH (TURF), (Preference by condition eligibility).  

   Let's say he does get in, and does win(A lot to ask!!!), Then maybe just maybe a Shot at the Turf Triple Crown?, Colonial Turf Cup, Virginia Derby, and the Secretariat Stakes!  Hey, One can only Dream....

Ron,

   Question for you, What are the main reason's he wouldn't get into the race ?, Earning's ?, Thanks...

Nicky, you're really coming along-it's wonderful watching him grow and mature like this.  Wouldn't it be wonderful and amazing if he were able to get in on Saturday's race card!  Never say never - you just don't know he may just get in!  No matter where he races it's wonderful watching Nicky come into his own.  Look forward to this entire racing season!

This is great info as I have been wondering how he is doing.

Nice workout.

I would think this month we will have info on Lentenor's first workout.

Everyone cross their fingers for him to get in!

~Nicole

Greg: If he did get in, it would be huge exposure for him, you know the ABC/ESPN  hosts will give him a mention if he races on Belmont day.

rmitchell,

Where did you learn your math? From the Greg J book of multiplication? 3x12=36 so a 3f work in 37 isn't average it's below avg. In racing 1/5 a second equates to 1 length so this work is 5 lengths below average. That's not very good my man.

The field has already been picked and posts have been drawn. I don't think he made it.

I said the :37 time is "in line with" the parameters of a good workout. And I stick by that, based on my 30 years' experience writing about/observing workouts and talking to trainers and jockeys.

You cant base how good a work is off final times because only Matz and his help know what he was looking for in that work. He could of gone 25 for the opening 2 furlongs then finished up in 12 in the last furlong which is what all trainers want in a workout, a strong finish.

Hey guys, just read a wonderful article about Dynaformer on the DRF posting 5/29/9. It's all about the lack of distance being breed in todays thoroughbreds and Dynaformers contribution to remedy this. Makes you so proud of this great stallion, still going strong at 24 yrs old. Long Live THE King!  

Thanks Ron for the update.  Keeping my fingers crossed that Nicanor will get in.  Whats the word on Lentenor and how he is progressing?

Great breezing workout Nicanor. I love it that you can go that fast...breezing. Michael Matz hasn't worked you handily in like ages. I am guessing as a novice mind you that you could go way faster handily.

And I would hate for anyone to think that I suck up to moderators, because I don't, but if it only takes you 12 seconds to go an eighth of a mile, and you really aren't trying too terribly hard...breezing, that is really quite good in my novice opinion.  

rmitchell, you'r correct and draynay is doing the "usual". Mr Matz said Nicanor "worked very well". Enough said.  

I hope Nic gets the distance and continues to improve. Dynaformer is getting old and we need his sons to continue to improve these wimpy no-breds the industry keeps pumping out.

Dray,

    Shouldn't you be studying your Pick's for Jason's Blog?, and as Matt stated perfectly, Work-out times don't mean a thing unless you know what the instructions were for the Horse and Jockey.  

Adam,

    The exposure would be GREAT for Nicanor, I really hope he makes it Saturday, Even though, It would be tough for him on a new track, and a newer Jockey, I was wondering who would be on Nicanor?, I know Rosie can't ride him, She has 7 races on Saturday at Delaware.  Could it be Edgar Prado?, Since he will be at Belmont for his ride with Mr. Hot Stuff, Now, That would be something!, Also, It could be J.Leparoux(On Flying Private) who worked Nicanor at Keeneland, or, it could be K. Desormeaux(Summer Bird), Who was on Nicanor at Gulfstream...

Nicole,

    The Entries for Saturday at Belmont have not been listed, just yet, Don't know what the hold up is ???

I know this is all speculation, But it sure is exciting...

Nicanor never burns up the track in his works; that is normal for him.  His breeze was 2nd best of 9 horses going the same distance on the dirt at Fair Hill this morning.  Gio Ponti, a classy G1 and G2 winning turf horse, never works fast... just like Nicanor.

Kathy, you are right.  HE BREEZED 3 furlongs.  The :37 time for a breeze is GREAT.

Greg J,

The main reason Nicanor wouldn't get in would be that the race over filled with horses with earlier dates than he has.

The track has a priority date system where the horse that has the longest time since his last race at that track will have preference over a horse with a more recent race date.  I believe the date is determined by the actual date Nicanor ran at Belmont (which is never) or the date his foal papers arrived in the race office, whichever is longest.

Turf races are very popular and usually over fill.  Nicanor will be one of the last to draw into the race since he hasn't raced at Belmont.  It is likely the race will fill before Nicanor gets in.

Dona asked why trainers didn't give their horses long works like "yesteryear."  I don't think the works were longer 50 and 60 years ago, just much more frequent.

Instead of breezing today's standard of every 6 or 7 days Max Hirsch, the trainer of the 1946 Triple Crown winner Assault, was breezing him every few days.  In April, Assault had 8 breezes AND 3 starts, including the Derby Trial FOUR days before he went on to win the Kentucky Derby.  He had three breezes at 3f, one at 4f, one at 6f and three at 8f.

Between the Kentucky Derby and the Preakness which was ONE WEEK FOLLOWING THE DERBY, Assault breezed twice, 3f and 8f.  Two days after his 8f breeze (in 1:45) he won the Preakness.

I have a feeling it isn't the breezes were longer, just that they were much more frequent.  I think a lot of trainers are very afraid to work a horse the way they did in the 40s and 50s.  I also suspect the trainers of yesteryear broke a lot of their trainees back then, too.  It is one thing for a trainer to tell the owner that his homebred will not ever race again.  It is quite different for a trainer to tell an owner that his $3 million dollar yearling is finished and will never even make his first start.

Fifty years ago, horses didn't sell at auction for millions of dollars.  I think their cost has made trainers more afraid to push them.  The faster you train a horse, the more likely they are to get an injury and sometimes that is a career-ending injury.

Foals and yearlings aren't raised the way they were 50 or 60 years ago.  Now, a potential million-dollar yearling is weaned and separated from the rest of the weanlings into his own small paddock so he doesn't bang himself up and either get hurt or blemished.  Many of the horses vying for the Triple Crown races were those hot-housed yearlings.

I personally don't think hot housing a yearling is the best way to prepare a tough racehorse.  Unfortunately, the goal of many of today's breeders is not to get a good race horse, but to get a good sale price at the yearling sale.  The Green Monkey was a phenomenal success for his connections but a complete dud as a racehorse not able to even break his maiden at 4 years old.  (The Green Monkey sold at the 2-year old in training sale for over $16 million!!!)

There is a subtle difference in the end product when the goal is to succeed at the yearling sales.

Dranay,

A :36 breeze is not an average time for a 3f breeze--it is pretty quick.  The final time has a lot to do with the condition of the track as well as the instructions that were given to the rider.

Nicanor is being entered in a race on Saturday, so I doubt the trainer wants to do too much with him so close to the race other than just give him a lung opener.

There is a lot of confusion of what the term breeze means.  It has two meanings.

First, it is an official timed work.  The term "work" and "breeze" can be used interchangeably.  For example, Nicanor was scheduled for a breeze today; and, Nicanor worked today.  A work or a breeze is very different from a gallop.  Often a gallop is referred to as training.  For example, yesterday Nicanor probably went to the track to train.

The other use of the term "breeze" term is related to how a horse does his official timed work.  That is a judgment call by the official clockers, not the rider nor the trainer.

When horse is said to have breezed in his work (as opposed to doing it handily), the clockers are looking for the horse to do everything easily and without any asking.  It is a judgement on how easily he did the distance in the time posted.

In general, handily means that the horse was asked a little more than in a breeze.  Often the designation has to do with the rider having to handle the horse maybe to get him quickly out of the gate or to keep him going at the end of his breeze.  A horse that is being asked to work very quickly will likely get a handily designation beside his work.

Don't read a lot into that designation.  Sometimes the clockers didn't even see the horse they timed other than when he broke off and when he finished, so put down handily.  Or they are in a bad mood and don't give anyone breezes beside their works.

I went to the page where Nicanor's work was published and found every single horse that worked today at Fair Hills is listed as breezing in their works.  Do I believe every single horse (36 including 7 out of the gate!) were breezing?  No, I think the clockers list all works at Fair Hills as breezes.  In fact, I went back through every single work to May 25 (the earliest I could find) and found not a single "handily" work.  Woodbine, Canada's premier track, on the other hand had 118 published works this morning and 52 were recorded as handily.

I would not expect any trainer to tell the public his horse turned in a work that they didn't like, so don't read a lot into a trainer saying that the horse did exactly what they were looking for.

Regards to training i found some reading material  about training and it said Ben Jones believed in heavy weights over 200 lbs and nothing under 1 mile for horses he trained for the Triple crown races . He won 6 derby's maybe the trainers should build stamina into there horses so they don't get tired.Like to see Nicanor get in but if he runs in Delaware again he should win easily.

Thank you for the update.  So if Nicanor does not race this weekend, he will simply wait until around June 18/20, right?  I look forward to his next race:)

FYI,

   Entries are out for Saturday at Belmont, And no Nicanor, as expected. Well, the speculation was fun while it lasted!  On to June 17th(I hope) for Nicanor...

   What an incredible undercard on Belmont Saturday!  The Talent running is quite impressive, Should be a great day for "The Sport of Kings"...

JAJ,

  Thanks for the info...

Dray,

37 seconds is just about average, if he'd worked in 38-39, that would not be that good. A horse doesn't have to 12 clip in every workout, that's why you see a lot of the going five in 1.01 or 1.02. Nick did just fine.

Hi,

I got a question for those in the know. When looking at past posts about Dynaformer his include a number of champions, graded stakes winners etc. What exactly makes a TB a champion?

Thanks

JAJ--

Thanks for your very insightful comments. Certainly consistent with my knowledge of both subjects. I have found that the terms "breezing" and "handily" are regional in nature.

For example, East Coast tracks are more prone to use of "breezing" while those on the West Coast are fond of "handily."

You can see for yourself how workouts are referenced and how times compare by going to the Equivase web site, and on the left margin scroll down the drop down menu for "other products" to where it has workouts. It's free.

To MKC--

A Thoroughbred champion in North America is determined based on year-end voting by members of the National Turf Writers Association, Thoroughbred Racing Associations, and staff at the Daily Racing Form. Voting is based on categories of age and/or sex,  (2-year-old filly, 2-year-old colt, for example), or type of runner (sprinter, etc) and the winner in each category is honored with an Eclipse Award. Eclipse Award winners are each year's champions.

In Europe, there are several ways in which champions are determined. The most traditional way is based on weights assigned to horses that ran in those countries, segmented by sex, age, and in some instances the types of races in which they ran. The weights are assigned with the best horses being given the highest weight. Lately, European champions are chosen in a manner similar to the U.S., with a voting system that comes up with top horses that are honored with a Cartier Award.

Hope this helps.

Every workout is deemed breezing in the East Coast, so the fact that he breezed should be of no consequence. Quite frankly, these horses today are being babied way too much. Alydar worked 1 1/2, 6f's and blew out 3f's within 7 days of the Belmont! Crank these horses up so they can be durable.

JAJ: Thanks for all the great info in your last post.

Excited that Nic is working and will be racing again soon.

TO RMITCHELL and JAJ: Thank you for your highly informative posts on this new thread. They are examples of the kind of knowledge I was hoping to see shared in these blogs when I first started participating in them a couple of months ago. I enjoy soaking up such in-depth racing knowledge, so am grateful to you both and hope you'll continue sharing such info with us.

TO MKC: A follow-up to rmitchell's excellent description of how Thoroughbred champions are named.

In one sense Thoroughbred racing is no different from any other sport. Year-end champions are those who win the most when it counts. In racing, the horses who win most of the top stakes races (in the category in which they race) are likely to be named champions at the end of the year and receive Eclipse Awards.

The Eclipse Awards are very rough equivalents of the Academy Awards. Similar to the Oscars, the Eclipse Awards have several different categories, such as separate championships for two-year-old and three-year-old colts and fillies, champion older horse and filly or mare, champion turf horse, and so on.

Here's a good resource where you can learn more about Thoroughbred racing championships and the Eclipse Awards: en.wikipedia.org/.../Eclipse_Award

OMG have been out of the loop for awhile but came over to check things out.  GREG!!!!!!!  If Nicanor gets this race and wins?  OMG I already have goose bumps.  WOW.  Moving right on up to the top.  :-)

GREG J.: Just saw your post to me on the LVR thread about Friesan Fire. Great news. Thanks for letting me know. I'm looking forward to Nicanor winning some stakes on turf later this year, and to Fire's return.

Wishing I could see him run SOMEWHERE, but I'll have to settle for tv, or replays, darn-it.

Good luck, Nic, in your next race!

Nicanor sure is coming right along. Hope he does well enough in his races to maybe make it to Arlinton some time this summer. Got my fingers crossed. Sure would like to see Nic in person.

Re Champions

The way champions are determined really needs to be revamped.

In the US and Canada, it is voted on by designated voters.  Some of the people doing the actual voting on championship honors are turf writers who only report on horse racing around the time of the Triple Crown.  Many feel that many of the voters are not qualified to cast a vote in something as important as a championship.

Some of the results are a bit absurd.  For example, Horse of the Year in Canada last year was a 3-year old colt who DID NOT win champion 3-year old colt!  How, one wonders, is that possible?

The system is flawed.

JAJ, speaking of The Green Monkey, please explain to me why he sold for $16 million.  He's a wonderful looking horse, but his pedigree is not outstanding.    

I am pleased to hear Nicanor is doing well,very proud fan of his.

MKC, the Dynaformer-La Ville Rouge mating has produced two great colts, Barbaro and Nicanor.  Nicanor's first race probably should have been on the turf.  After his second race, I thought that blinkers would do the trick, but many did not agree with me.  On the turf, with the blinkers, Nicanor won't loose another race.  He is a wonderful looking horse, and believe me, he knows it.      

Secretariat was a most magnificent horse, but his sons did not measure up.   Risen Star was his greatest son.  Secretariat's daughters inherited his great heart.  Weekend Surprise, produced A.P. Indy.  Many  Secretariat daughters produced great champions.  Secretariat's big heart was inherited from Princequillo's daugher, Somethinggroyal.  ALL of Princequillo's daughers inherited his large heart and they in turn passed it on down to their sons and daughters.

I wish all of you would read about the X-factor; it is facinating

Why June 17?  Let's make it June 20 in the Colonial Turf Cup.  There are some interesting nominations, but he is going to see that level of competition from now on out as long as he keeps improving.  Any way you look at it, I am looking forward to his next race.

Dray, you are right about 1 thing 1/5 of a second is equal to a length but other than that I can see that you are obviously no trainer. A good work isn't necessarily an overly fast work. You don't want to leave the race on the track in the morning. The horse is training to go a route on the turf and he has natural speed he doesn't need any more speed put in him. He did just enough to get him on his toes and put a little wind in him, Mr. Matz knows what he's doing.

Nicanor's work was rated 2nd

of 9 works this morning accord

-ing to my Virtual Stable alert.

Why wouldn't Nicanor get into the race on Saturday?  It sounds like a race that he would be suited for, since he has only the one win. Is it a full field?  I would love to see him run Saturday and be ready for a campaign in the stakes races on turf.  

There you go Zookeeper, you

have a prime example of a mare

producing foal after foal.Grade

1 winning Fantastic Look died

May 29th after foaling her 14th

foal in 16 years.  She foaled 13

consecutive years beginning in

1993.

Mares in a wild mustang band will produce year after year if physiologically able. And LVR did not have a foal last year. The Jacksons aren't running a PMU foaling operation! Let's all enjoy her sons (and hopefully a daughter this time) and leave the frequency of breeding out of this blog (please :)

MAry,

I'm glad to see someone mentioning the x-factor. I'm relatively new to the in's and out's of racing, but I was stunned when I mentioned that to various horse handlers in Lexington, and not a one of them seemed to know what I was talking about! They said it had to do with his spirit to run!!

Mary,

    Here is a article about "The Green Monkey" on Bloodhorse.com:

www.bloodhorse.com/.../the-green-monkey-retired

Mary & Barbara,

    I don't know if you have gotten a chance to read this great article(Came on-line last night) on the Great Secretariat, On DRF.COM :

drf.com/.../104331.html

Enjoy...

Greg J,

Looks like the 17th or 20th then.  Either way, see you there?  We should try and get a larger contingent together this time.  The more the merrier!

Mary,

I have no idea why The Green Monkey went for $16 million other than two parties with oodles of money to throw around both badly wanted him.  He must have had one heck of a breeze in the gallop show!

You are correct, the pedigree isn't THAT good, although his sire Forestry was a very hot stallion at the time.

The Coolmore people have a business plan to try to buy up all the potential stallions and hope one of them turns into a home-run horse and pays for the duds like The Green Monkey.

I can't help but keep reminding everyone not to put a lot of importance in the times of Nicanor's breezes.  None have been fast.  Being second of nine at the distance says nothing, especially when a total of three breezed the same time, one being a 2-year old.

The final time usually means nothing unless you know how he did the work and what the plan for the work was.  For example, if Nicanor breezed the first eighth in 13.60, the second in 12 and the third in 11.40, it is a completely different breeze from one with fractions of 12, 12 13.  Note, that the final time is still 37.  

The final time doesn't tell us if he was struggling home in the final eighth.  It says nothing about how the gallop out after the breeze went.  

I have to make a comment on the concern that is repeatedly expressed about mares dying in foaling.

A normal foaling is an incredibly fast event.  Explosive is a word that describes it very well.  If there are complications in a foaling, there is often nothing the vets or attendants can do about it.  Another species of animal (humans included) would have plenty of time for an intervention but that is just not the case with foaling mares.  When things go wrong, they go terribly wrong FAST.

Another reason mares die from foaling complications is because a uterine blood vessel ruptures.  That often doesn't show up for a few days.  Sometimes clots form in the blood vessels.  Mares are not candidates for hysterectomies, so saving a mare by surgery isn't a reasonable option.

I am not sure that breeding a mare into her 20s is as bad as many of you think it is.  Each mare is an individual and should be evaluated as such.  Some mares are finished their reproductive careers when they are 13 and cannot be gotten in foal again due to poor uterus tone.

Azureblu,

I know, I read that too. Very sad.

carry back,

With all due respect, who appointed you "editor in chief"?:) I would hope that no subject be taboo on this blog when it pertains to TBs, broodmares and/or their beautiful foals.

1) I don't recall anyone saying that the Jacksons are running a PMU operation.

2) Wild mustang mares should be used only as an argument AGAINST excessive breeding.

3) May I humbly suggest that you read the article about Fantastic Look. Excessive breeding does exist and should be strongly opposed.

4) Rightfully defending the Jacksons should not prevent anyone from condemning the practice of breeding mares too often or breeding them when they are too old.

Way to go NICANOR. CAN'T WAIT UNTIL HIS NEXT RACE. HE LOOKS LIKE HE WILL HAVE A GREAT CARERR ON TURF. THANKS FOR INFO. I WISH WE COULD SEE HIM RUN ON SATURDAY BUT I WILL WAIT PATIENTLY FOR HIS NEXT RACE. BE SAFE AND RUN WELL BIG BOY!!!

JAJ,

Thank you for the info about foaling problems.

So much to learn...so little time...

glad to hear he's doing okay.he could be a turf horse yet. don't give up everybody.

JAJ,

I have another thought: breeding a mare seems to be somewhat like racing a thoroughbred. The more often you race/breed them or the longer you ask them for their all, aren't you increasing the chances of something going wrong?

However, I agree with you that each horse/mare is an individual and should be treated as such.

Way to go NJ.. Our Little Nicky Knocks is growing up!!!! Whatever happens or when ever your next race is just be safe, but have fun. Big Bro will be looking after you!

Thanks for the info..

Barbara, I'm going to continue to read about the x-factor; it really helps to know a little about it when you are looking at a horse's pedigree.  I'm happy that you are also interested.

Greg J., great articles.  I thoroughly enjoyed the article about Secretariat.  I suppose we will never see another one like  him.  The Green Monkey, 1/8 in :9 4/5, wow.

JAJ, Greg J. sent to everyone a link to an article about The Green Monkey.  You were right when you said that he must have had one heck of a breeze in the gallop show. Fast horse.

Can never get enough of The Green Monkey, I believe part of his connections are the owners of Dunkirk.  While no TB is worth that action, Storm Catx2 on top, and Unbridledx2 is still outstanding pedigree, combined with the bullet 1/8 and his confirmation--he had it all; but, JAJ is right--more than anything an ego driven bidding war.  Bet John Ferguson was glad he came up short on that one, since he rarely does.  Where are all those people who were comparing Nicanor to the monkey?  Or the fox hunting commentary?  Or the Charlestown commentary?  Even the guy with the joke about the beyer figures who kept changing his name?  Those people were mainstays after his debut?????????????

i cant wait to see nicky race again!

maybe some owners should breed their mares every other year...and im sure some do

dont they breed them like 2 weeks after they give birth? wild horses have a choice... i feel. im conflicted on the issue because the industry produces too many horses a year. look at how people see puppy mills. the horses are treated better im sure, but we dont need 30,000 new foals every year.

sorry for the off topic post, but as in Curlin's lil bro's case, if a mare will never be able to take care of a foal i dont think she should be bred. and them to breed a mare just so she can produce milk for another mares foal is wrong too. (dont get me started on PMU either)

and also.... whats a 1 furlong breeze have anything to do with how the horse will later preform?? this just pressures the horse to early IMO.

and arent there any other turf races around before the 20th that Nicky is able to get in?

zookeeper,

Would never want to be editor of a blog like this. Sorry you don't respect my opinion, though presented politely.

Now can we all agree to enjoy the progeny of LVR?

I misread the title "Nicanor Works at Fair Hill; Entered at Belmont" and thought for a split second Matz had entered him in the Belmont Stakes. That would be interesting. I do think Nicanor should aim for The Haskell and Breeder's Cup. All I can say is the horse is living up to his lineage, and should have no trouble with any of the 3 year olds, including Mine That Bird.

Nicanor is barely trying when he runs, and when he wins a stakes race, he will be in every newspaper in the country. And didn't we hear that Lentenor is BETTER?? I think Nicanor will respond to any challenge, and I would urge Mr. Matz to run him in The Travers, Haskell, and maybe a few others. We have the best 3 year old on this board...

One additional comment about breezes or published works. Unless it is a work out of the gate for a predetermined length, you do not know how far the horse actually galloped before the breeze started. The horse could have galloped over 1 mile and then started his breeze. If this is the case then finishing in 3F in 37 is a solid work. In short, there is not enough information to determine if the 37 work is fast or not.

Zookeeper,

It seems many think that one shouldn't do anything with a horse that involves any risk.  Unfortunately, that is not how life works.

Horse breeding and horse racing is a business.  The business might dictate that if you can get another healthy foal out of a mare, you try to get her in foal even as the risks to the mare increase.

I am still amazed that many are so critical of owners breeding mares every year.  I wish they would put their outrage into the way farm animals are raised and handled--where there is real cruelty and suffering.

While many of you think a mare owner or a racehorse owner should suffer the financial costs associated with missing years breeding a mare or retiring a horse at the first signs of soundness issues, these same people are not prepared to put their money where their mouth is and pay the extra to buy meat, eggs and milk that is produced humanely.

The contradictions in some astound me.

i know nobody thimks i know any thing about horse racing because i am only 13 but when i first saw barbaro run i knew he would win the derby. my cousin puts money on any horse of my choice and i havent lost yet. even with this years derby. good luck niccy im keeping an eye on you

DRAYNAY......3/8ths in 37 is good....if that's what MATZ wanted......not everyone is Bob Baffert who has em ripping off fast works everytime...Get a clue about racing and training....Oh wait, I'm sure you're a trainer or was a trainer or.....

It's great to hear that Nicanor is finally going to get into some big races! To full-fill his destiny, who cares if it is turf, he'd be the best turf horse there is. He's got the speed, brains, power and he's found his "speed song". Watch out colts he's going to be on fire.

Michael Matz has all his charges' best interests in mind when he works or plans their races. He trys to look at their whole career and where he wants them to go. He also waits until the horse tells him they are ready. Right at this time they say Lentenor seems to have what Barbaro had, that will be seen when he starts his career. Nicanor, according to those in charge has gotten more aggressive since his win, I think he will be much different when we see him race again. Go Nicky Go! Show em all you are "NICANOR" his majesty!

Brettzky99,

     I know, Isn't it funny how they all disappeared, I am not complaining, though.  They probably are on another blog somewhere putting down other horses, Good riddance...

    BTW, Nicanor's Beyer in his win was a solid "100", Not too shabby at all :)

Kat,

    Who is going to win the Belmont?, lol...

Mary,

    Check out the Video of the "Green Monkey's" 9 4/5 Sec. Work, Amazing Speed...

www.youtube.com/watch

Jon from Maryland,

Let me try to help you understand something about horse racing.

First of all, NO ONE knows how good Lentenor is.  One doesn't get a good idea of what they have until the horse is breezing 5f.  The Green Monkey is a perfect example.  As far as I know, Lentenor has not even breezed 2f.  He might be good, but he might not.  Based on his breeding, I suspect he will be a racehorse at some level or other, but he doesn't have greatness stamped all over him at this point.

Even when a horse is breezing 4 or 5f, the trainer doesn't always know how good they are until they race and can be compared with other horses.  It is useless to have the most talented horse in the world if mentally they can't cope with race training or a race itself.

Nicanor has not proved he can beat the best 3yos in the country.  How insulting to the proven graded stakes winners!  It is nice to support Nicanor and the connections, but let's appreciate all horses and not belittle the proven achievements of some of the country's finest horses.

Christina,

The reality is that broodmares are bred every year--just like in the wild--unless there is a reason not to.  That is the norm.  Mares who have not had a foal the previous year for whatever reason are harder to get in foal.

If a mare has foaled a late foal, the farm will attempt to get her in foal on her foal heat (about  12 days post foaling) hoping to move her foaling date up about 3 weeks, or will short cycle her with hormones so she will come back into season very quickly after her foal heat.

Watching The Green Monkey, I can only wonder what he could have been if he had not been pushed so hard, so early.  He would still have looked impressive if he had done the 1/8 in 10.5 or even 11 and may not have pulled the glute.  I can't blame the horse for being reluctant to extend himself after that type of injury.  I have no problem with working 2 year olds and working them fairly hard, I just have an issue with short bursts of extreme speed for what I see as no purpose other than to exploit them for sales purposes.  OK, I abdicate the band stand.

brettzky99, I look at pedigrees differently than you do.  I focus more on a horse's female line.

Zookeeper,

 I see the logic, however it is flawed.  If, and only if you have your own farm, You have a significant expense keeping a mare.  If she is not producing, the the cost of keeping is overhead that cannot be recovered.  Here you have grain costs of about $1,200 per year, hay is approaching $400/ton (6 weeks to 2 months, depending on pasture), plus vet bills etc. If you are boarding your mare then you have to add 10,000 to 15,000 to these numbers.  If you only breed your mare every other year then you have to sell the youngsters for $20,000 up just to cover mare expenses without even considering the stud fee.  Breeding represents a huge expense and is a business.  Mares are living breathing creatures.  I love them with all of my heart.  However, you still have to look at the economics of running a breeding business.

Berner, the proverbial lightbulb went off in Nicanor's head during that overwhelming victory at Delaware Park, and with it a good dose of hormones;  I think we have seen the last of his goofing-off stage (lol).  I would love it if he were to win the Virginia Derby;  what a wonderful starting point that would be, as it has been for others (Gio Ponti, Go Between, etc).

LVR was not in foal in 2005 or 2008.  I see nothing wrong with the way LVR is being handled.  In the wild, this is the norm.

I also hope for the best with Nicanor but I cannot see the sudden jump from one win to graded stakes glory that others seem to see.  Wishing for it is OK but Nicanor has to prove his last win was not a fluke; that he can continue to win and step up in company at the same time; and for me, that he learns to rate, which I have not seen yet.  Unless he learns to rate, IMHO, he will be limited in the types of races he can be successful in.

As for the X-factor, no doubt it can help but it's not exclusive and seems to be getting a little over-hyped.  Other things like talent, physical soundness, circumstances and luck all play a huge part.  I think horses that can run short and those that run long can all have an X-factor, but in my book, that does not make them champions in  the same category as Man O' War or Secretariat, who could do it all.

Also, one of the main sources that has been traced to allegedly carry the X-factor, the great mare Pocahontas, may have been a "roarer" and passed that on at times as well:

"Between these two races, Pocahontas changed hands, sold to Mr. William Theobald. Following the Cesarewitch, she showed some improvement, placing second in three more tests at four and five, including victory in one heat of a five furlong plate without taking the win. She'd shown some class, but in her nine starts, she'd been unable to win. Pocahontas may have been run over her head, but it may also be that her ability was compromised by being a "roarer," or "broken in the wind." This is a respiratory problem that in this case may have been passed down through the female line for at least three generations, as both Marpessa and her dam Clare were also said to be roarers." (Read the whole article on her and her decendants)

www.tbheritage.com/.../Pocahontas.html

Was she a great mare? Undoubtedly.  But as usual, there is good with the bad.

For what it's worth, I think Man O' War has Pocahontas in his background something like eight different times- and he certainly did not get the roaring trait.  And it's almost certain that his daughters were influential because of the x-factor, but also because of other traits.  He, like Secretariat, was a phenomenal broodmare sire. I don't think that just the "X-factor" is responsible for that.

Lentenor's people all say he has what it takes, brains, body, heart and breeding. He has done some breezing but nothing fast yet. He knows what he is suppose to do and is competitive, the rest we will know when he runs his first races.  

Don't worry - still here. I can't take credit for the beyer or Green Monkey comments, but I will take credit for the foxhunting comments. I believe I said Mrs. Jackson was eyeing him as a foxhunting prospect. And the Charlestown comment? Actually, I mentioned Charlestown and Penn National.

I was on hiatus, poking fun at the LaVille Rouge/Dynaformer wedding silliness.

So, anyway, now that Nicanor has proven he's unbeatable by beating a bunch of other non-winners at Delaware Park at a speed that made me think he was swimming, I guess I'll refrain.

If Nicky-Knocks goes off on the 17th I hope we will get a video of the race.  Dang always in the middle of the week when we are working.  But of course if it doesn't stop raining soon it won't make any difference as there will be no turf races.  Have never seen a May and June to this point with so much rain.

JAJ,

Way to go! Full speed ahead and damn the consequences. After all this is a business and business shouldn't have any ethics, right?

(By the way, I'm a vegetarian)

carry back,

I respect your opinion, I just did not appreciate your attempt to limit the conversation to the adulation of LVR's progeny. I didn't realize this was a "fan club" not a "blog".:) So sorry, please forgive my transgression.  

Jon from maryland/cockeyesville, and your other blog names.  Atta boy;  welcome back--how about some more old jokes about the 120 beyers??  You got anything new---ever??

Hey JAJ,

Once race horses begin to use blinkers in races, do they use blinkers in workouts as well?

Thanks,

Kathy

Nicanor is super....

The word from horsemen is that Lentenor is Barabro's equal, so one would expect him to win at first asking. As for Nicanor, most horses don't win their first turf race by 15 lengths, and based on common sense, and his 100 Beyer, he is looking like Mr. Fantasy. The Green Monkey was simply overhyped and not worth 16 million. As for teaching me about horseracing...my cousin was head of Fasig Tipton and my mentor was editor of the Maryland Horse Magazine, and I have ridden thoroughbreds.

I do know racing, and Nicanor runs just as fast as he wants, and I don't think I am insulting stakes winners by saying he is better. Average horses don't have 100 Beyers (improving), and Nicanor's canter is their fully extended gallop. Imagine what he'll do...he's headed for 115-120 Beyers this summer. Just wait.

I have to agree with Jon that it doesn't seem like Nicanor is running too hard.  I think he has alot to offer.  I still don't know if he has all the ingredients to be a top horse, but it seem he does have the ability.

jon,

i just can't wait... lol i agree on your comment, i know Nicanor can take those stake horses... by watching his first 3 races you can tell that he's just playing around out there. on his last race we can all agree that he matured already and ready to take the big guys...

Just to clear up any confusion, I am the REAL Kat!!! And I could only hope to see 13 again.  ROFL

Breeding soundness is not always a straight forward call.  I do believe in giving mares time off (I have a 23 year old that has had 9 foals, I retired her 3 years ago.  She suffered a sacro-illiac injury and I'm not interested in forcing her to carry a baby on a compromised back.  I doubt if everyone would have made that choice.)  You have to evaluate each mare on an individual basis.  Ditto the owners.  :)

Slightly off topic...

I just wanted to thank Bloodhorse for not dropping this blog.  I can keep up with Nick here.

So thank you.

Wow Summer Bird won the Belmont.  I'm beginning to believe I know something about horses.  I bet on Summer Bird and won $200.  Kent Desormeaux had a good day, he won 3 races before his mount on Summer Bird.  It was the day of the bird; Summer Bird and Mine That Bird.  I live in Louisiana and am so proud of Borel and Desormeaux.  

Kathy,

The answer is it depends...  It depends why they were using blinkers in a race and if those conditions apply in a morning workout, and by workout, I take you to mean a breeze at near-racing speed.  It would make sense that if you are racing a horse in blinkers you will also breeze them in blinkers.

Mary, you can try this link to check out their pedigree...

www.pedigreequery.com/nicanor4

its pretty cool website.

The word is that Lentenor is Barbaro's equal?  Surely you jest, Jon!

No one knows how good Lentenor is at this point.  He needs to do something to show some talent and open gallops don't show you a lot.  Maybe he might be good, but he hasn't done anything yet to prove he is anything but maybe a good 2-year old prospect.

Let's enjoy the horses as their talent unfolds.

I think Nicanor will have a heck of a time winning another race.  My suspect will be unmanageable in his next few races when he has to run against horses of higher quality--horses who have actually won a race instead of the maidens he has so far run against.  He was rank when he was running near other horses at the beginning of his last race and I doubt Matz will be able to convince Nicanor to relax.  The blinkers might compound the problem.  My gut feeling is a trip to the vet for an equipment change will make him a better racehorse.

Zookeeper,

What ethics are you talking about?  There is nothing wrong with breeding mares!

When you decide to breed a mare, their general health and body condition will let you know if you should do it or not.  Believe me, the mare will take a year off is she needs to.

A broodmare has a heck of a lot easier life than any other career for a horse that I can think of.  My goodness, what a great life these mares have!  They are out in a field, sometimes 24/7 with their girlfriends.  They love being mothers.  It is the most rich and natural a life you could want for a horse.

Yes, there is a chance that they will die from foaling complications, but really, that is pretty rare.  Every year women die from complications in childbirth as well.  As I wrote before, one of the main differences is that foaling is so fast and explosive that once a problem presents itself, it is often too late for any intervention--in young mare or in older mare.

HorseFirst, Secretariat passed the big heart gene on to his daughters; that is why he was a great broomare sire.  The big heart gene (X-factor) cannot be passed on from sire to son, only daughters.  Secretariat inherited his big heart from his mother, Somethingroyal.  She inherited the gene from her sire, Princequillo.  It is believed that Princequillo carried the largest heart gene, followed by War Admiral, Blue Larkspur, and Native Dancer.  All of Princequillo's daughters carried the large heart gene.  So that is why Secretariat's daughters produced some great horses.

The first thing I look at in a pedigree is the female line.  I like to see a lot of Princequillo.  Look at the pedigree of Rags to Riches and A.P. Indy, outstanding.  

HorseFirst, Pocahontas was a roarer and it is believed that she inherited the big heart gene from several descendants.  Man O' War had a big heart, but a sire cannot pass the gene onto his sons.  War Admiral inherited his big heart from his dam, Brushup

TomF,

You are a voice of reason on this blog full of cultists.

Nicanor is an ok horse, won more than most 4x starters, but to even entertain a run in the Va Derby at this point is loco. He's still a low level allowance horse at best. .

I have been looking at the pedigree articles for about a year but probably more as a causal observer.  What is the "X-Factor" you are talking about?  Do you look for articles under that name?  I wasn't aware that Secretariat's large heart was a 'gift' from Princequillo via Somethingroyal.  I like viewing the lineage.

I doubt we will be seeing Nicanor on dirt anytime soon. Or later.  Let him gain confidence and 'clip the daisies' to victories.

Thank you - I just looked up the tbheritage website!

bowlofflowers, just google horses "X-factor" and you will find all kinds of articles.  It is strongly believed that Secretariat got his large heart from his mother,Somethingroyal,who inherited it from her sire Princequillo.  A sire cannot pass the gene onto his son, only his daughter.

Seattle Slew did not pass the gene on to his son, A.P. Indy; Weekend Surprise did.  Weekend Surprise is a daughter of Secretariat. Secretariat produced some great daughters.

JAJ,

Oh man, now you've done it. "an equipment change"? The FOB responses to my little jokes about foxhunting, and to other folks sincere questions about his ability will absolutely pale in comparison to the firestorm you have just unleashed.

JAJ,

   I respectively disagree with you implying that Nicanor should be gelded.  He has only run four races, The first I throw out due to him grabbing a quarter. He came in second to two Horses with great potential(Nicanor finished second to "Custom for Carlos", Who won an Allowance race at Churchill Downs on May 29, His record is now 5 starts, 2 wins, 1 second, 1 third, that includes a third in the Swale stakes, "Glittersman Cartel", Who Nicanor finished second to in his third race, has a decent record also, 4 starts, 1 win, 1 second, 1 third, and was a late scratch last week at Churchill).  

    Nicanor was late in maturing, He is finally getting "it"(IMO).  I also don't thing the blinkers are adding to the problem.  I felt it helped him focus last race, Yes, He was a little rank in the beginning, But I believe as his training progresses with the blinkers, He will be just fine.  I could understand if Nicanor was a handfull to train or was un-manageable off the track, then maybe you would be right in your assessment to geld him.  By all accounts, He is perfect to handle and train off the track.  So just a difference in opinion, Just because a Horse is a little rank in only his fourth race is no reason to geld him. (In that race, it was his first time with blinkers, New jockey, First Turf race, First time around two turns, Maybe one of these reasons is why he was a little rank in the beginning?)...

    As far as your comment on Nicanor having a heck of a time winning another race.  Well, Only time will tell on that one, I, For one, Cannot wait when he gets the chance at tougher competition, We will start to find out next week, hopefully...

TomF & Yawn,

    Your insightful and  knowledgeable comments are greatly appreciated, lol...

Zookeeper,

  i would be that if you looked at statistics you would find just as many mares dying from foaling complications that had had a year or more off as those that have been bred every year.  The size of the foal, the presentation of the foal, a change of grain, a weed in the grass, something in the hay, weather changes, rolling the wrong way, getting kicked, getting cast in a stall can all possibly cause a problem.  Many of these things can also cause problems in open mares.  Sometimes a mare is open for several years "because there is a problem that causes her not to conceive".  The problem is still there but the third year she does and then the existing problem causes her to die.  This could be a small tear in the uterus that went undetected and healed with scar tissue or something else.  The mare dies, but we are not told (nor should we be told) what the problem was.  The same thing happens to a mare that has foaled for the last 5 years in a row and for her "she was bred too much".    You cannot have it both ways!

Greg J.  

You are right.  When people put down horses and then the horse does things like MTB did or Nicanor, it shuts them up.  I don't know why people have to put down horses.  Horses are horses.  

I believe all horses are good wonderful animals.  I think the people just can't stand themselves so they put down the horses to upset others.  That is usually the way of it in life.  :)

JAJ:

Why is gelding a horse so important?  After all isnt a stallion worth more and a better horse in the long run ?  

JAJ

I appreciate your comments. I just want to disagree with your "hothouse" comment. I personally worked with multiple million dollar yearlings, on a couple of the BIGGEST farms in KY. Never have I seen a weanling separated because he/she is considered too valuable. On another farm, I even foaled/groomed Meydan City (look it up) and he was just another weanling in the big field (personally I think his full brother was a nicer horse than him, but that's just my opinion) The colts do get separated when the sales prep starts though, for the simple reason that they tend to get more rambunctious as they get fitter and thus, being colts, they can and do hurt each other out playing.

I love the coverage on the bro's, keep it up Ron. If you think back a few years, you'll know who I am.      

Actually Tom I was the one who referred to the foxhunt/charlestown/pennnatl comments.  I have nothing to do with FOB, whilst I surely support the cause.  Comments were Funny, and I for one was always objective on the horse's potential prior to his second start.  However, at some point, you have to make a case for this colt.  His 2 place finishes were at an elite winter meet, where he was over 5 3/4 lengths clear of the show horse both times.  Lezcano, both times stated he had enough horse to win, but the horse was not fully focussed and responsive in the lane (my opinion is that he could have passed Glitterman's Cartle with another 1/16, but that's just MO).  The speed figures were respectable. Then he breaks his maiden.

Yawn says the Virginia Derby is loco.  5 or 6 months ago, if a 3 year old broke his maiden by 15 lenghts with a 100 speed figure he would have been put in every  Kentucky derby top 25 that existed, period.  But the Virginia Derby is too much and he's a 20k allowance horse?  Right.  No more so, can the horse be bad because he has a large following, than can he be good for only that reason.  Not touching the gelded comment.

People and their idioms, I had no idea what JAJ meant by equipment change until Greg J., clarified the term.

I really don't believe that Nicanor will come into his own until he is 4 or maybe not even until he is 5. Did it occur to anyone that as mellow as Nicanor is, that gelding him may make him too mellow to race?

Has anyone noticed that over the last year that people have gone from saying,and I paraphrase,  "Well,I plan on purchaing him for 10,000 dollars in a claiming race" to this blog, "He's still a low level allowance horse at best." Sheesh, Louise folks, Nicanor is still a baby and improving. And JAJ, I think you are bright in many areas, but a hard you know what in others. Nicanor isn't biting, ain't kicking, certainly not hurting and still improving. And if you mean gelding, say gelding. I don't have time to look for an idiom book that specializes in catchy horse farm phrases.

I believe the blinkers are the catalyst in Nicanor's case in that Nicanor may feel a little weird traveling in a pack of horses that he can't see very well. He pulls ahead of them, so he feels safe. If I am right, you will probably see Nicanor try to pull ahead of horses on a regular basis when he races.

And I don't believe Nicanor was coughing up "fur balls" after his last race. He looked as if he had plenty of energy left to burn.

Greg J...I agree with you. Gelding Nicanor seems way premature at this point. In fact, he isn't a troublesome horse. That's the only reason they gelded Mind That Bird per Chip Woolley. Sorry JAJ I have to disagree with you. But you are entitled to your opinions.

Greg...how did you do on the Belmont? I just had a gut feeling that Mind That Bird wasn't going to win. No particular reason. I'm really excited that RA might still be at Church Hill next Monday when we are there. Mind That Bird might still be there also. Hope we can get pictures of them working since we can't go back to the barns. Plan on being there early for one of the tours so maybe. Keep your fingers crossed for us.

I hope that Nicanor is racing on the 17th at Deleware. We can watch him from Church Hill. Greg have you found out anything else? They haven't made next week entries available yet. Haven't seen that he has worked since week before last.

Catch ya later....

Nicanor is a lock in his next race, he's just starting the learning process and has speed to burn.Geld what for? he is a great stallion prospect. For you who don't believe in his ability now and missed that steal of a bet in his last race -wake up easy money to be made in his next race! He'd take rachel to the cleaners if they are entered in the same race.

I believe the "word" was that Lentenor was further advanced on several criteria than his brothers when he left Ocala and arrived @ Fair Hill.  That may not have anything to do with speed at all.  Secondly, there are many colts who probably were further along than Barbaro was at the same age;  doesn't mean much.  Clearly, the Matz barn is quiet, so far

Good job Nicky! Your already a great little racehorse with lots of potential. Keep up the awesome work! =)

There is only one Barbaro. Nicanor should have the right to win his own way. He might surprise all of you doubters. It is early in the season yet, give him a chance to do it his way~!!!!

Ragsy...

Because it calms them down LOL!  Maybe they just wanted a mellow horse. Some horses do better without the well you know LOL.  Mine did.  I had two geldings.  Loved them dearly.  Much easier to train and much eaiser to ride and much tamer.  Mind That Bird = Seabiscuit and John Henry.  He will probably be a very famous gelding in the years to come.... How is that ride on Rags2Riches?  :)

Greg J.

The 6 pick was hit on the Belmont.  Paid almost a million dollars.  Egaaaaaaaaaaaaaaads.  We can only hope aye?  :)

JAJ  no no no not geld Nicanor.  My Gosh he may be a killer stud.  :)

Mary-

"HorseFirst, Pocahontas was a roarer and it is believed that she inherited the big heart gene from several descendants.  Man O' War had a big heart, but a sire cannot pass the gene onto his sons.  War Admiral inherited his big heart from his dam, Brushup"

Umm...read my post again.  I said that Man O' War and Secretariat were spectacular BROODMARE sires- which means I know that they can't pass the X-factor on to their sons or...well...they wouldn't be "sons."

As well, Pocahontas would not inherit big heart genes from her descendants....assume you meant that some other way....

And I still say the X-factor is a little hyped.  It doesn't hurt, but it isn't the only thing and it's probable you can find claimers with the X-factor.

JAJ,

I agree that there is nothing wrong with breeding mares. I was only questioning the wisdom of breeding them too often or when they are too old.

Springsmon83,

Thank you for your input on foaling problems. I'm just a racing fan. The info you provided helps a lot. You seem to know what you are talking about. I'm just questioning and learning...

Lou in Tx & Stardust,

    Hello there!, Lou, Still haven't heard any more on Nicanor racing on June 17th, Just going by what Mr. Matz stated earlier. The entries are closed on this Sunday, June 14, Here are the Specifics of that race:

EIGHTH RACE ALLOWANCE

PURSE $39,000. (PLUS UP TO 50% DELAWARE CERTIFIED BONUS) FOR THREE YEAR

OLDS AND UPWARD WHICH HAVE NEVER WON A RACE OTHER THAN MAIDEN,

CLAIMING, OR STARTER OR WHICH HAVE NEVER WON TWO RACES.

Three Year Olds 117 lbs. Older 123 lbs.

Non-winners of a race since May 17 2009 3 lbs.

ONE MILE AND ONE EIGHTH(Turf)

Should be perfect for Nicanor!

    As far as the Belmont, I did O.K.!, I was trying to tell everyone that Both Bird's would finish one, two.  I didn't have Dunkirk in any of my Trifecta's(He ran a heck of a race, It is terrible about his injury, but they are saying he should be back in the Fall, I hope!).  I had a $50 Win ticket on Summer Bird, it should be about $650.00, and I had a $2 Super Boxed(2-4-6-7) which should pay $852.00(I haven't cashed them in yet).  I was going crazy during the inquiry after the race!, If Dunkirk was placed behind Charitable Man, I would have cleaned house, but it wasn't meant to be, I guess.  

    Lou, Besides the Work Ron mentioned up above, Nicanor also had a Work on 05.27.09, 4 Furlongs in 50:00 Seconds, Breezing, 6/8 at that distance, at Fair Hill...

Brettzky99,

      Spot on about your comments on Nicanor regarding the Virginia Derby and on making a case for this colt...

The comment that said the Michael Matz camp was quiet right now is right, they are not saying anything because there is nothing to say right now. Nicanor has had a handful of races, he won one, he has become more aggressive since then, no more to say until he races again. Yes, Lentenor is way ahead of what Nic was to start, he hasn't raced yet, nothing else to say. They are not going to speculate and make stupid comments like he should be Gelded, why he is a good boy! He now understands what is expected of him and we will see if he has the speed. He IS NOT a problem horse...

If MM was thinking about June 17th at Delaware Park for Nicanor's next start, it had better stop raining - it's been rain, rain & more rain here lately.  That turf course might just resemble the Everglades right now.

Geld?? From what time I've spent with him I don't see the need...just my opinion.

Seabiscuit WAS NOT a gelding.  However there have been many great geldings over the years, Armed, Kelso, Ft. Marcy (one of my favorites), Forego, as well as John Henry.  And there have been a lot of geldings that captured the heart of racing because they were around for a while such as Funny Cide, Kona Gold, and I believe that Brass Hat is gelded but I may be wrong.

HorseFirst, I doubt you will find many claimers with the large heart gene.  Increased heart size makes everything easier, but to serve as an advantage it must be a gift possessed by less than the majority.  A horse can have an oversized heart, but fail to stay sound, due to conformation defects; so he might become a champion, but not an infalliable one.  Many things factor in; increased heart size just makes it easier.

You know what I meant by the Pocohontas comment.  Just a slip of a word.

If you don't agree with any of this, then you might want to discuss other things; no sense in arguing about it.  It's science, that's all.  

Some people don't like Kent Desormeaux and I'm ambivalent about it but one thing I would do, if he and Nicanor could get along, is that if there is any chance Kent is riding in Nicanor's next race, make sure he's on Nicanor.  I just kind of believe that Desormeaux knows Nicanor's number and would rather put KD in the position where he's trying to win with Nicanor rather than beat him.

Rosie did well but until Nicanor can rate, I think KD knows how to beat him.  Just my .02cents.

okay, I am going to step in it here... on the Gelding issue... I am a big fan of Nic... so FOB's do take this with a grain of salt, or the whole box if you must...

I have qh, and sent one of my horses to a trainer in CO who excels in the reining pen. When I went to meet with him prior to sending my mare to him for training he was working with a young stallion. Who had impeccible ground manners and in training looked pretty good. His bloodlines included Topsail Cody and Reminic. Which are not shabby names in the reining pen. As for conformation, physically, there was little to find fault with. He had actually won halter classes as as a weanling and yearling, even though he'd never been conditioned for halter. His owner wanted him to expose him to as many differnet things as she could before sending him to training.

Fast forward 2 months. I bring my mare to him for training, said stallion is now a gelding. Why I asked. The trainer explained to me that while he was a decent reiner while intact, he just was not "getting it done" in the show pen. So they gelded him. He wasn't stallion material.

Once gelded the young horse went on to be a 10 ten performer in AQHA competition, National Reining Horse Events. Not only in the professional ranks, but with amateurs and youth as well. The lady that owned him went as far as saying... "he'd have been a nice stud but he is an outstanding gelding."

So please people, don't get "studitis" I am not saying geld Nic, but I am saying that it can help a horse to compete.

I think it was NBC, during the Preakness, that the main reason they gelded Mine That Bird was because he was not getting it done on the track. That he'd probably never amount to much if he was kept in tact. Maybe a good allowance horse. It was after they gelded him that he began to run like he did. Winning a few graded stakes races in Canada before being purchased and brought to America. But Bennie Wooley will probably agree that if he were kept in tact, he'd have never made to where he is today.

Some should have their cahonies some should not.

I just stumbled onto this blog recently. Lots of interesting comments. While i was also a huge fan of Barbaro, some of the well-meaning but over the top comments/expectations about his siblings are a little embarrassing to read. But, no harm done. As i said, I'm sure these comments come from well meaning people--good hearted. Better to have too much heart than too little. I find it much more distasteful to read the comments of some who can't resist an opportunity to pontiicate, lecture and show off his or her knowledge. While that knowledge deserves respect, what appears to be missing with people like this is heart. JAJ's stated position is that horseracing is about the bottom line--"it's a business." The reasons why racing has a declining fan base are numerous but the "it's a business first" attitude is a big one. First and foremost horseracing has to be about honoring and caring for the horse or there will be no "business" to be concerned with. Those who lament the decline of the industry wonder why the larger public doesn't connect with racing's heroes. Well, if they want the average person to see these gorgeous animals as the heroes they are, they need to treat both winners and losers differently. The stars can't be rushed off to the breeding shed to satisfy the business interests of owners and the losers can't be rushed off to abandonment or worse. For an industry desperate to provide the public with equine heroes it can relate to, how can you emphasize the nobility, courage, intelligence and personality of some animals while treating the less valuable animals as mere commodities to be disposed of because of "the bottom line"? People are extremely turned off by that undercurrent in racing. While there are many owners/breeders who make an effort to find good homes for the track failures and retirees, far too many do not, resulting in thousands of thoroughbreds being put down/sent to slaughter every year. Imagine how the general public would feel about football if the dirty little secret was that washed up players were often abandoned to deplorable circumstances or death. It doesn't happen because our culture values humans more than animals and because the ball players have a powerful voice--a union. Horses obviously have no union, no voice. They only have those of us who understand that while there are obviously some legitimate business interests, eventually there will be no racing business at all if more people in the business aren't willing to make bottom line sacrifices for the individual animals and for the sport as a whole. If there is the goal of rebuilding public interest in and support for the sport, those in the industry must project their love of the sport, first and foremost. People don't want to hear financial excuses for the irresponsible disposition of the unwanted animals, many of whom have earned their keep. Santa Anita, Hollywood Park and Del Mar are all on the block. Major racing may virtually disappear in California. The long term picture for racing nationally is clearly uncertain. Racing could use more new faces like the Jacksons--Gretchen, Roy, and Jess, who put the horse and the sport first. The responsiblity for what happens to unwanted horses should be shared by those who profit from them. And if that means that some people are driven out of the business because they must help bear those responsibilities, so be it. No one has a god given right to a particular occupation and certainly this country does not need 30,000 thoroughbreds foaled each year to support racing anyway. I would like to see every person who is at all interested in saving racing write letters to the NTRA and/or other racing organizations to promote the welfare of the horse. I seem to recall that a proposal to put aside literally a few dollars per race toward the welfare of the horses was shot down not too long ago as "too expensive." Shameful. Again I say that if it's too expensive to properly care for the welfare of the horses during and after their careers, those people should not be in the business. And if that means that racing as a sport dies sooner rather than later, I would feel sad and miss watching, but I'd feel better knowing that thousands of animals would no longer be brought into this world with such uncertain futures. Well, thanks for providing a forum to share my thoughts. I've made my one and only appearance and will leave the regulars to continue their various conversations. But to all of those who either expect too much or too little of Nicanor (the "nay" sayers...sorry, couldn't resist), how about getting off the poor colt's back? Just wait and see how he and his brothers perform rather than offering pie in the sky performance predictions or tearing him/them down as less than average losers. I hope Nicanor does well. I'll go out of my way to watch his next race. If he doesn't do well, I'll still be a fan. I'm sure his owners will love him just the same and he will be well cared for regardless, as he should be. These owners will make sure he lives out his life with dignity and respect. And that legacy, not the winning or losing, will be the most enduring of all.

Thank You DJC, well said. I will love both of these boys no matter what they do on the track, they are both so sweet and I wish them both (or should I say all) of them the most wonderful, healthy lives, no matter where that is.

FYI,

   The reason "Mine that Bird" was gelded is the following:

    "He would lose focus. Rearing up, especially if there were fillies around. He was bothered by other horses and would not focus. His mind was not on what it should have been. This is not unusual for young colts. Paul called up and asked if it was O.K. to geld him, and the decision was made to geld him."

That is from an Article that Alex Brown did for "The Rail" in the New York Times, Here is the link for the whole Article:

therail.blogs.nytimes.com/.../this-morning-at-woodbine-racet

So on the issue of Gelding "Nicanor", Everyone can have their own opinion, I, For one, Don't think it is necessary, but that is just my opinion...

Berner05 & Bob D,

    Hello there!, Hope everything is well, Thanks for the insight on Nicanor, and, Yes, It better stop raining!, The forecast is looking good for next week, though...

DJC...thanks for your wonderful imput. The FOB's have saved over 2900 horses so far from slaughter and are raising lots of money for the research of lamimistis. Barbaro is our hero, because of him all of us have come together to fight for the horses. To put the horses FIRST. We will always love Barbaro's brothers(hopefully a filly on the way) no matter what they do. We like to call ourselves Barbaro's Band of Brothers. Please come join us in our love for this family of horses plus loads of others horses we love and care about. You are welcome on this site anytime. Most of us just love horses period.

DJC,

All I can say is: BRAVO !!!

DJC: I know you said you wont be back but, what you just said makes more sense than any I have heard before....Thank You, you said it all.....

Stardusty Rose:

Rags2Riches is feeling mighty good...but my plans for 2 horses will be put on hold for who knows.....I am way out in the country and far from humans and now, I hear the Nat.Guard will be putting a bridge up and buying up property mine included.... what a nightmare thought....

DJC

Well said, right on!

DJC,

I do agree with much of what you say; however, I think you misunderstand the point I was trying to make.

Horse racing and breeding is a multi billion dollar business.  Racing doesn't only support breeders, owners and trainers, but also the many supporting business from the veterinarian to the hardware store that sells the latches for the paddocks to the farm supplier that sells the feed buckets and so on.  The industry employs an incredible number of people, some who could not find regular employment anywhere else but on the backstretch of the track.

In that respect, horse racing IS a business, a very big business.

Wishing to make a profit on your business is NOT incompatible with "doing the right thing" by your horses.

On a completely different topic, I did NOT advocate gelding Nicanor.  I have absolutely no idea if that would make him a better racehorse, but my suspicions are that it would.

The sport needs horses that are around long enough to develop a fan base.  I think it is absolutely wonderful that Nicanor has such a strong fan base.  He hasn't shown himself to be a particularly brilliant racehorse (yet!), but he has so many loyal fans.    Wouldn't it be terrific if he stayed around racing for a long time?  He might do that if he doesn't get shipped off to the breeding shed.

Mary,

I'm late in getting back to this, but there is a great article about the x-factor on this website: www.circledhorses.com.  It's under "library of articles". Happy reading!

Well I have to put my two cents in on some of the excerpts on this blog....GELD....are you crazy.  If Nicky needed to be gelded I am quite sure that the Jackson's would have done that by now, don't forget they gelded Man in Havana because he did not want to run.  As I have stated before MANY of the Dynaformer horses do not mature as fast as some others and that when Nick gets to 4-5 he will know what he has to do.  He is still playing around, quite spoiled it looks like to me but the colt does run and in time hopefully with wearing blinkers for awhile he will get the message.  There are a lot of horses that do not rate and need to be on the lead, who knows but our boy may be one of them, and so what as long as he tends to business on the front end there is no reason to worry about it.  Are all kids in the same family the same or are some quiet, some loud, so bright, some not..they are not all the same and neither should the Barbaro boys.  Nicky is Nicky and Lentanor is different, so what as long as they both end up tending to business.  I am proud of my Knicy Knocks and I have no doubt he will make Lael proud.  That is my feeling on this whole matter, now lets root for our boy in whatever races he wins or loses and something tells me there won't be that many losses down the road.

Yes, the Jacksons are awesome and responsible owners- just like the overwhelming majority of those in horse racing.

HorseFirst, has Kent mentioned how he would ride Nicanor?  Any additional info would be great.

Does anyone know anything else about Lentenor right now?  A first published work for him soon?

Really love all of the inside info- like I said on the earlier blog post, if more horses currently running had these it would advertise racing more, draw us fans together to educate each other, and inspire trainers and owners to reveal more details about horses progress.  Although I do put a limit when it comes to the often cruel or baseless gossip that I have seen at some sites- the sites not run by fans but populated with horse police stalking trainers, owners and horses too.  I have seen too many good people portrayed as villians (even the lovely Jackson families! So wrong!)  Or watched as people constantly pick away at racing by listing everything they can to make it look bad to those viewing the forum.  Some seem to thrive on creating a zoo of chaos that keeps everyone on the defense of the very sport that we love.

I love following Barbaro's family here, the Jacksons included.  They represent everything that is good in the sport.    Greg, For Big Red and others- good info, good job!

Hooray Nicanor!

Entered at the Belmont? Wow!

Good luck, Nicanor! You can do this.

Lots of love, Nicanor!

DJC;

Amen, and thank you!

Mary-

"HorseFirst, I doubt you will find many claimers with the large heart gene.  Increased heart size makes everything easier, but to serve as an advantage it must be a gift possessed by less than the majority.  A horse can have an oversized heart, but fail to stay sound, due to conformation defects; so he might become a champion, but not an infalliable one.  Many things factor in; increased heart size just makes it easier."

Well, those are all some of the reasons a claimer could have the large heart- it doesn't always mean the horse has the talent or inherent natural ability to take advantage of one physical trait.  You kind of made my point with what you said above.  Then there are all those mares who didn't run worth diddly who carry the X-factor and pass it on and get some good runners- when the traits necessary to take advantage of it come with the heart.

"If you don't agree with any of this, then you might want to discuss other things; no sense in arguing about it.  It's science, that's all."

I never said I disagreed about the large heart- just that it is over hyped and there are a lot of other factors involved for a horse to take advantage of that large heart.  As for it being a science, on that I would have to disagree AT THIS POINT in time.  You have a hypothesis that it comes down certain lines based on some evidence, such as post-mortem and ultrasound, and tracking particular horses in a pedigree.  While it does look advantageous, I don't believe the evidence is conclusive- as in scientific- just circumstantial at this point.  I don't know of any study underway to help conclusively prove or disprove the X-factor.  Please note the difference between scientific, as in proven, and circumstantial, which is what we currently have.  

You can believe it and that's OK, but it's not scientifically proven yet.

I do believe it can be a factor.  BUT- everything has to be in place for it to make a great race horse.  Princequillo was a good race horse, but not considered a champion although it is considered he had a large heart.  But he did become another solid gold horse as a broodmare sire, and is one of the X-factor horses for mares.

Odds are simply that more than good or champion race horses carry the X-factor heart, even claimers. I don't believe Somethingroyal, Secrtariat's dam, or Mahubah, Man O' War's dam, exactly burned up the tracks.

Thank you HorseFirst for reminding the group that this whole X-Factor thing is an HYPOTHESIS, not proven science.

If it were proven science, do you not think that every yearling or 2-year-old buyer would have the hearts ultrasounded before they raised their hands for a bid?

I do know of one group that does all kinds of bio-metrics analysis, heart ultrasound included, when they consult for a buyer, but it is NOT the norm.

As a breeder, I have never heard of the X-factor discussed by anyone in the industry when discussing breedings.  There is no X-factor advertising done for stallions (who should pass it on to 50% of their daughters) nor is there any X-factor advertising done before the yearling sales for the yearlings that are expected to bring the big bucks.

The only place the X-factor is discussed is on places like this by people with no real connection to the industry.

By the way, I believe Monarchos' heart is quite large.  I have never that mentioned in any of his ads.

This is a hypothetical thought...

I know that there will be a few scoffers at this idea, but do you suppose that maybe, just maybe M.M. might be entering Nicanor in the Colonial Turf so that he can try for the Grand Slam?

And JAJ, hopefully, I didn't offend you. Sometimes, I write when I am irritable, and still the moderator puts it in. I am grateful for when the moderator prevents the really cranky stuff from entering, but then I get it off of my chest.

One last comment on the gelding issue, in general geldings make better racehorses than entire colts do ALL other things being equal.  Before you jump all over me by naming some of the greatest racehorses of all time who were entire colts, I want to reiterate--ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL.

I think almost all trainers, if they were completely honest, would like to geld every single male horse that enters their barn.  I know my trainer would, and she has trained some very successful colts who went on to become influential regional stallions.

A trainer normally gets given a piece of his/her retiring colts, usually a season for the life of the stallion.  That's a pretty big tip if you were the trainer of a horse like Storm Cat or Mr. P.

If there is any chance that a colt could make it in the breeding shed, a trainer would not want to geld him even if he knew the horse would make a better racehorse gelded.  The trainer gambles that he is going to be able to make more money in the long run by selling a season on the open market for as long as the stallion lives rather than winning a few more races.

From my perspective, I don't see a lot of reasons for Nicanor to pass on his genes.  I don't think the Thoroughbred breed will miss not having any Nicanor babies.  Nothing I've seen makes me want to breed to him, and that is my opinion as a breeder, albeit small breeder, of Thoroughbred racehorses.  The defense that he is from a line that doesn't mature until four or five is an added reason not to ever breed to him.  Who needs to breed to a late maturing horse from a long line of late maturing horses sired by a stallion who has yet to produce a stallion?

My goal in breeding is definitely not to breed for that fast maturing 2-year old who can win a couple of races by May of its juvenile season and then never be heard from again.  At the same time, I don't want to be waiting on a horse until it is four.

Here is where the business aspect comes into play--a very late developing horse is too expensive to risk investing in.

Quoting:

The reason "Mine that Bird" was gelded is the following:

   "He would lose focus. Rearing up, especially if there were fillies around. He was bothered by other horses and would not focus. His mind was not on what it should have been. This is not unusual for young colts. Paul called up and asked if it was O.K. to geld him, and the decision was made to geld him."

So yeah, he wasn't getting it done on the track, and therefore gelding him proved to be the right decision. If I had a colt who had acted up all the time, race horse or not, world champion material or not, and his behavior could not be modified by positive reinforcement or other humane means, I'd geld in a heart beat. JMO... not that it means much on this blog... and that is fine with me.

Kathy, sometimes I write when I am cranky, too!!!

You asked earlier about gelding making Nicanor too mellow--I doubt it would.

My 3-year old who won a stake race at 2 was gelded at 18 months old.  He is a kind horse and was not gelded for any behavior issues.  He was never going to be a stallion so the obvious thing was to geld him.  He does everything asked of him and is a very "good feeling" horse.  You always have to be on your toes around him.  It is not unheard of for him to rear up full height on the track after he has been pulled up following a two-mile gallop if a horse breezes past.  He would probably have been very difficult to train and might not have gotten to the races if not gelded, because he would have been just a bit tougher.

I'm not sure what Matz is saying when he says Nicanor has gotten more aggressive since he won his race, but it might not be a good thing.  Aggressive does not need to imply nasty--it might be that he is becoming a bit difficult to manage on the track--i.e. the trainer wants the horse to gallop one way and the horse wants to do it another.  He has always been "aggressive" in his races, too much so in my opinion, so that is not a new trait for him.

As far as gelding making him too mellow to be a racehorse, I doubt that would happen.  

OH, and as I said, I was not stating that Nicanor needs to be gelded, and I agree, if he needed that I know that the Jacksons would not hesitate. That is their decision and theirs alone. I just wanted to state that gelding does help some colts...

Not all stallions should be used in the breeding shed just as some mares should not be bred... not just for "behavioral issues" but due to heriditary and confirmational issues.... The FOB's have saved thousands of OT TB's, who couldn't cut it... there are still a large number of PMU foals who were bred strictly for urine collection. Many of those horses were bred without thinking of the bigger picture of confirmation, behavior, form and function. It is no better in the QH world where they are finally getting a handle on HYPP... for so many years they bred, inbred and line breed Impressive horses with HYPP hoping to produce that next world halter champion. So there are/were thousands of Symptomatic HYPP horses, and HYPP attacks are UGLY. Now we have HERD (Poco Bueno line) as well. Think of the thousands of horses that are bred annually that perhaps should not have been born, not just by a breeding farm, but the back yard breeder as well who has a young colt and a mare, and they couldn't just geld him before producing off spring and raising that oh so cute baby. This would be a non issue if we didn't breed so many horses... trust me, we are over populated. In the last few years we have had drought conditions that have brought on neglect and starvation cases, there have been domesticated horses found roaming through national parks because owners felt that the horses had a better chance in the wild when they could no longer afford to take care of them and could not sell them.

I know I have stepped in and have opened a can of worms... I love all things Lael... I am not a horse racing expert... nor would I ever claim to be one, because there is always something new to learn in the horse world. I understand that many feel the Dyna/Ville foals are the end all be all. It would very cool if Nicanor goes onto greatness (Think Curlin)and very cool of Lentenor goes on next year to a triple crown. We can always hope. But we also must pepper that hope with a bit of reality too...

DJC,

Stick around......

Knew He Could Do It,

Don't know about a published workout, but I can tell you that Lenny is quite interactive with people, and seems very confident. He needs some more experience with the peppermints, though!

Greg J.,

Things are good - expecting to see you at Del Park or Colonial Downs!

Another ignorant question. How do trainers get paid? Is it a monthly (yearly) fee and percentage of purses? Thanks for the info.

Guess who just had a workout!!

NICANOR

Date: June 11, 2009

Track: FAIR HILL

Distance: Five Furlongs

Time: 1.02:00 Breezing

Track Condition: Fast

Surface: All Weather Training

Rank: 1/3

MM means he is aggressive when it comes to winning and passing the horses he is supposed to pass, not play with...

Mahubah and Somethingroyal didn't burn up the track; but that is not the point.  It is believed that they carried the gene.  Listen everyone, I won't talk about this again.  I simply enjoy reading about it.  

By the way JAJ, the owner and trainer of Secretariat talked about the X-factor after Secretariat's death, so big time trainers more than likely have at least read an article or two.  

JAJ your arrogance is astounding.  No real connection to the industry; don't want to wait on a horse until he's four; NICANOR not worth breeding.  I used to enjoy your comments, now I find them offensive.  Obviously the Jacksons' can AFFORD to wait on Nicanor.

Wow, Mary, that was a little aggressive.  And uncalled for.

The truth is that most of the people on this blog have no real connections to horse racing other than being fans.  There is nothing derogatory about that statement.

My opinion is that the majority of owners cannot afford to wait on every horse until they are four.  Certainly, we will wait on any horse that has to be waited on, but we certainly won't be breeding or purchasing for that trait--we will be breeding and purchasing AWAY from late developers.  MY OWN opinion is that I and other breeders will not be breeding to a horse if we think that the resulting foals are likely to take an exceptionally long time to be ready to race.

I have expressed an opinion--MY opinion on MY breeding decisions-- on whether or not I would find Nicanor a potential stallion that I would be interested in breeding to.  The answer is a resounding no.  That doesn't not make me a fan of the horse and his connections.

I think that I didn't make clear my thoughts on waiting on a horse to mature enough to race when I said that as a business, we owners can't afford to wait on a horse until they are four.

Let me try to clarify.  First of all, when you have a horse, you wait as long as it takes until they are ready to run.  On an individual basis, you always wait.

Really, you can't get a horse to the races before they are ready.  I don't think any trainer or owner sends horses to their first race unless they believe they are ready.  A horse who isn't ready to race has either growth issues, soundness issues or mental issues that need more time.  For example, a big growthy 2-year old will often grow unbalanced with the back end growing first.  You just can't go on with these horses and if you do you WILL hurt them.  Sometimes they are too mentally immature to handle the stresses of racing.

Anyone who has a horse that isn't mentally or physically ready to race HAS to give them the time.  There is just no other way.  On an individual basis, we give them the time.

That is a lot different from breeding to a line that is likely to take an extraordinary amount of time to get to the races.

MKC,

Trainers make their money in a variety of ways.  An owner pays a day rate which will depend on the particular race track's going rate and the success of the trainer.  I pay $80 a day for my horses.  The trainer does not make money from the day rate, even at $80 a day.  The day rate will cover the food, groom, exercise rider, blankets, bandages and things like that.  It will not cover the jockey in a race, the farrier, nomination fees, vet bills or medications.

When my horses place or win, I pay a percentage to the jockey and the trainer (10% each).  My trainer might also want a percentage of any horse I buy or sell.

The really top trainers will also charge for things like interviews with the press.  Their day rate will be a lot more than my trainer's.

Some trainers have been accused of making deals for yearlings before the sales and then having their owners unknowingly paying hundreds of thousands of dollars over that already agreed upon amount.  Jess Jackson of Curlin fame has been instrumental in working to stop that practice.

Knew He Could Do It -  

I didn't mean that Kent D was in line to ride Nicanor- just that he happened to be the jockey that beat him twice and I think he has Nicanor's number. I think he knows how to "play" Nicanor so he runs out of steam too soon, if Kent's on the right horse to do it.  So if Kent's around, IMHO, better he be on Nicanor rather than beating him! (And just my bias on that)

Mary-

"By the way JAJ, the owner and trainer of Secretariat talked about the X-factor after Secretariat's death, so big time trainers more than likely have at least read an article or two.  

JAJ your arrogance is astounding.  No real connection to the industry; don't want to wait on a horse until he's four; NICANOR not worth breeding.  I used to enjoy your comments, now I find them offensive.  Obviously the Jacksons' can AFFORD to wait on Nicanor."

This is something JAJ can respond to if he wants, but geez....JAJ at least has a broodmare and horses at the track.  And as a small owner, he darn well knows that most people cannot wait for a 4-year old to finally come around.  The Jacksons, no problem and JAJ knows that.  But it's very, very expensive to keep just a personal riding horse, let alone a race horse.  So JAJ made a very common sense statement about the REALITY of the situation. Not if it's right or wrong, but that REALITY plays a part that you cannot ignore.  JAJ is doing a lot to inform this board of the realities of racing.  I look forward to JAJ's posts because they won't be pie-in-the-sky worship.  Yet, he loves Nicanor and I do too.  Nicanor doesn't have to do one darn thing to earn that love.  But Nicanor is in a very, very NICE situation.  Lucky for him.  Me, I still think that Matz needs to start teaching Nicanor to jump next year.  For some reason the first time I saw Nicanor I wanted Matz to come back to show jumping! (And I'll admit that's pie-in-the-sky thinking)  Maybe Nicanor would benefit from steeplechasing.  After all, another Dynaformer, McDynamo, made quite a successful career out of it.  At least Nicanor would learn that he can't go all out all the time!

As for Nicanor, BECAUSE he's owned by the Jackson's, he'll get a chance.  But that doesn't mean he's going to make a stallion.  First, he has to be a good race horse and next, since I haven't seen any good conformation shots, he's got to be pretty correct.  I know that lot's of stallions go to the shed who aren't correct and that's part of why we are where we are with the TB today.  Mine That Bird not only had "stallion issues", he was also not quite correct in the front legs.  I think Wooley said he toes out a bit.  So that decision probably had more backing it up than just MTB acting up.  Ultimately, the breeders will decide if he's stallion material or not.  If he's not getting support, provided he stays entire until he's off the track, then you might see NIcanor gelded or shuffled off to a small, regional market.  But since he's owned by the Jackson's, if it had to be done, I think they'd geld him.

Next, I don't know that people around Secretariat were immediately calling it the X-factor when the post mortem revealed the huge heart.  I think that tag came later from the person who traced it back to certain lines.  And just because you THINK big time trainers have read an article or two has no correlation to them actually using it, as JAJ very thoroughly explained.  If it was a big deal, vets would be making lots and lots of bucks doing ultrasounds of the yearlings before the sales, or sales of any TB horses for racing or breeding.  It's just not happening.

It's an interesting theory but just that at this point in time.  

HorseFirst, I'm not a horseman, just a fresh eye.  From what I have read ultrasound may come to be.  Listen, it's more than pedigree, I know that.  It's about pedigree, training, luck, etc.  Look at Friesan Fire's pedigree, he should have won the triple crown.  Look at Rags to Riches, she should have won the triple crown; Summer Bird, great pedigree.  Like I said, I'm not a horseman.  I just read a lot.  I apologize, didn't mean to offend anyone.  Secretariat won the triple crown in 1973; I was a child then.  All I have done since that time is read about horses.  I'm simply fascinated about the gene theory.

I guess I am a little aggressive, like Nicanor, the blinkers served him well.  Gelding him would be a huge mistake.        

As I recall, Barbaro was never tested, so no one really knows if he could have been a stallion. As Nicanor is only three years old,and judging by what the Jacksons didn't do with Barbaro, I seriously doubt if Nicanor has even been tested to see if could indeed be a stallion. But if he does have the potential to be a stallion, and starts winning regularly on the track, don't you think that breeders in Europe would be looking at him to sire long distance foals, given the fact that a lot of their races tend to be longer and I believe on turf?

I personally believe that had Dynaformer been easier to handle and had run much longer races, he would have overpowered the competition and would have won more of his 30 starts then he did. Let's hope that the Barbaro brothers can continue to show everyone what the Dynaformer/LVR pedigree line is capable of. As I've read on this blog that foals tend to take after mom rather than dad in the personality department, it would be interesting to know what Andover Way was like and was she the reason Dynaformer is so difficult today.

I don't think there is any testing of stallions while they are running to see if they are stallion material.  It's not whether they can get a mare in foal, it's about the worthiness of get from that horse.  Since it takes a few years to grow them up, it's a while before they know anything about the stallion's potential, even if he was a great race horse.  One of Secretariat's first foals was out of an Appaloosa mare, I would presume, to insure he could get mares in foal. It would be the rare horse that serviced any mares while he was racing. Hard enough to keep their mind on the job.

Ribot is in the dam line of Dynaformer and JAJ can correct me, but I think he was known to throw temperment issues.  Trying to remember if his sire, Roberto, did that too.  Having a good dam is important especially in the example she sets for the foal, but temperment comes from both sides.  I've heard of stallions fixing (not always) temperment issues in the dam.

Genetics is a crap shoot- that's why exceptional horses appear once in a while and full siblings rarely come out the same. The exact same genes don't always get passed or get expressed in the exact same way.  

Hi HorseFirst,

What stood out with Dynaformer that made him a stallion prospect? Dynaformer won some races, but wasn't a Secretariat or Affirmed. So why would he have been considered a stallion prospect years ago?

It appears that when recent stakes winners such as Curlin and Big Brown are done racing, they already have a stud gig just waiting for them. And what you are saying is that it isn't as simple as it appears.

Nor would the question of gelding Nicanor be very simple as well.

Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions. It is appreciated.

I think Dynaformer gets his bad temperament honestly--I'm not up on who was nasty and who wasn't, but I think a lot behind Dynaformer were not nice.  I do know his sire had some conformational issues through the knees and only stayed sound because he had a brilliant trainer.

There are no tests to determine if a potential stallion will make it in the breeding shed.  They do test breedings to teach a stallion to breed and to ensure his fertility, and testing for disease, but that's all they can test for.

Only about 25% of stallions entering stud can be considered a success.  Most, even the brilliant racehorses, are failures.

HorseFirst is right--a stallion's success depends on the racing success of his get.  It takes three years to get a stallion's first foals to the races as two-year olds.  By the time a stallion has shown that he really doesn't have what it takes in the breeding shed, his first foals will be three and he will have a total of four crops on the ground and one crop yet to be born.  That's a lot of foals to produce who can't make it in the job they were bred for.

Can you see why I am not eager to add to the stallion population if I don't think the stallion has a reasonable expectation of succeeding?  (My opinion, of course, not anyone else's.)  Sevetny-five percent of the stallions entering stud duty are failures and they will produce five crops of foals before that failure becomes evident.  If that "failure at stud" produces 50 foals a year, he will have sired 250 foals, the majority of them being sub par.  The scary thing is that some of those stallion failures manage to produce 200+ foals a year because they not only stand in the Norther hemisphere, but are then shipped south for stallion duty in the Southern Hemisphere.  It is something to think about.

Thoroughbreds, rightly or wrongly, are bred for one thing and one thing only and that's winning races.  They are not bred for breeding soundness, fertility, ability to raise a foal or temperament.  (Fortunately, in general the Thoroughbred has a terrific temperament.)

I feel very strongly that just because a mare has a uterus does not mean she should be bred.  I feel the same way about the stallions.

The Jacksons really are not in this for the money; they are in it for the thrill of watching their strong healthy beautiful horse win a race or showing heart that he can win a race. Look at what they did for their beloved Barbaro.  Owners don't do that very often.  He was a lovely creature of God, and he was treated as such.

The problem with the industry today is that it's all about speed; with litle or no consideration for soundness which should be of the upmost importance.  To me it is just morally wrong. Look at the pedigree of Big Brown and Eight Belles.  I don't think you will ever see horses like Secretariat, Seattle Slew, Citation, etc. again.  Perhaps soundness was more important to a breeder back then.  Today, it is so much more about money.  Look at The Green Monkey, money.  For a simple layperson like myself who has done extensive reading on the subject, it is just appalling.

Big Brown had no chance of winning the Triple Crown,unsound.  They just kept bandaging his wounds, like a soldier in battle, and sent him back out there over and over again.

Of course genetics is a crap shot.    Secretariat didn't produce any great sons, except perhaps Risen Star, but his daughters were exceptional.  He passed his genes onto his daughters, Weekend Surprise and Terlingua to name a couple.  Seattle Slew and Weekend Surpirse produced A.P. Indy.  

The odds are greater that if you have a winner like Barbaro, you will produce another one if you continue to breed Dynaformer to La Ville Rouge.  

By the way, look at the pedigree of Summer Bird's female line.  Beautiful.

RIBOT had a dangerous temperament, Roberto did not.

HorseFirst, if you really believe in horse first, then JAJ needs to get out of the business.  Some great horses bagan their career as four year olds and later.  My grandfather raised horses, so I do know something about this, it's in my genes HA!HA!

HorseFirst, if Nicanor ever runs in a stakes race, Kent Desormeaux is your man.  He knows Nicanor.

JAJ is going to be able to address this better, but Dynaformer's race record was decent enough.  Then, his dam was a pretty good race horse from the looks of things on Pedigree Query.  I'd say he was a good race horse with what appears to be a good pedigree.  He was the best offspring of his dam who apparently was never bred to Roberto again.  Next best offspring was by Seattle Slew.  She was put to some top stallions but her best offspring seems to have been Dynaformer.

I think they let Dynaformer have his chance and he was good enough that he's still in Kentucky. Getting a Barbaro though probably surprised quite a few.  He's about 24 now.

Today, stallions go to the shed far too early.  The bet is that they will produce others like themselves or better.  It's a gamble.  You mentioned Big Brown and Curlin.  No one knows if they can get runners or not.  As JAJ explained, it takes a while to find that out.  

In this day and age, seems any stallion that has a big name sire and cost big money in the sales will get a chance at stud, even if he only lasted three or four races.

Dynaformer offers an outcross to the Northern Dancer/Mr. Prospector bred glut of horses.

JAJ, did Roberto get his knees from Nashua?  I haven't heard much about Nashua but he's also behind the dam line of Mr. Prospector and MP is known for soundness issues.  Wondering if there's more than the Raise A Native side to that.

My. My!  I've been away for a few weeks and  during that time. this blog has taken a serious turn in the road.  The X factor discussion, the gelding  or possibility of gelding Nicanor (which is NOT going to happen) and all the rest of these discussions have become quite somber.  Let's lighten up a little bit, at least.

Question:  Where did the subject of Nicanor's being more aggressive after his win, come from?  Please elaborate.

Isn't it interesting that you never hear about Andover Way and yet she was in the money 17 of 18 starts. Her grand sire was Ribot and I am taking a wild guess here, but she probably didn't instill calm in her foal Dynaformer in 1985. (I read where Ribot ended up staying in the US because the insurance companies caught wind of his nasty temper.)

And let us not forget, Dynaformer probably got his stubborness from the Nasrullah gene which is on his sire's side.

So, all in all, Dynaformer simply can not help himself.

At age 24, is Dynformer being tested for his sperm count? Or is Three Chimneys simply keeping track of his live foal count?

DJC stated:

Better to have too much heart than too little. I find it much more distasteful to read the comments of some who can't resist an opportunity to pontiicate, lecture and show off his or her knowledge. While that knowledge deserves respect, what appears to be missing with people like this is heart. JAJ's stated position is that horseracing is about the bottom line--"it's a business." The reasons why racing has a declining fan base are numerous but the "it's a business first" attitude is a big one.

I completely share your view, and do not understand why JAJ is so revered on this blog... it's embarrassing.

helsbelles, I agree with you. I don't know why he is so revered.  It's a "business" mentality is just shocking.  This is all about the ethical moral duty of a horseman to make sure that the horse issound and in good health. It's all about morality; the difference between right and wrong.  

Mary, I don't know about you, but when JAJ says something that irritates me, I let JAJ know about it. I do not revere him, but he does answer my questions. And no one seems to disagree with his answers; at least not his nonethical ones.

I didn't direct my last question to anyone specific, so would you know how stallions are tested when they get older. Is it live foal count or do they test sperm levels.

Kathy,

A sperm count is taken with every dismount.  As soon as the stallion dismounts, someone with a long pole with a cup on the end catches some of the fluid dripping, then literally runs it to the microscope to be looked at and evaluated.  That is what the farm where my mare is kept does, and I am sure all the big farms in Kentucky do the same.  Bottom line, though, is how many mares are getting in foal and can the (older) stallion physically handle it.  

Mary and Helsbelles,

My goal is certainly not to revered, lol!  I would like to pass on some of my knowledge so that not only will you be a racing fan, but a more knowledgeable racing fan.

I never said horse racing was only about the bottom line.  If it was, there would be no owners.  None.  Traditionally and historically, people have lost fortunes being race horse owners.

There is a very famous axiom that goes something like this:  If you want to make a million dollars from horse racing, start with two million.

And, by the way, I do take offense to your implying that I have no heart and don't care about my horses.  Nothing could be further from the truth.

Thanks JAJ,

Must be really long pole for Dynaformer.

Here's to a couple more good stud years for Dynaformer.

JAJ, these folks will savage anyone who does not fall to their knees and worship Nicanor or Barbaro, but you already know that. Obviously some of these people have never seen a horse up close. I am really more of a casual fan than anything - never been to a horse race, and never bet a racehorse, I just love horses. But I do have a brain and the ability to think logically, and I appreciate your insight and first-hand knowledge of the "business" and your ability to step back and separate your emotions from the facts. It's nice to step away from "WE LOVE YOU BARBARO!!!" and "NICANOR WILL WIN THE BREEDERS CUP!!!" for a few minutes to read your posts, which are always thoughtful and filled with reason over emotion. Keep it up!

[end shameless reverence] ;-)